Podcast Summary: “The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History”

The David Frum Show | The Atlantic | May 7, 2025
Guest: Anne Applebaum

Episode Overview

This episode brings together Atlantic staff writer and host David Frum with celebrated historian and democracy expert Anne Applebaum to analyze the Trump administration’s unprecedented corruption, its effects on American institutions, and the international patterns of kleptocracy they believe unite modern authoritarian regimes. The conversation blends current events, historical reflection, and personal insights, offering sobering warnings but also hope for democratic renewal.

Key Discussion Points

Opening Reflection: WWII and the Meaning of Victory Day

• Frum contextualizes the episode with the 80th anniversary of V-E Day (Victory in Europe, WWII), recounting both the complicated history of the surrender and Donald Trump’s controversial, self-aggrandizing post about renaming victory days (00:56–05:30).
• Critique of Trump’s Narrative:
  Trump’s focus on American power, exclusion of core democratic values, and disregard for postwar reconciliation:
  • “Always lacking is any mention of the values for which Americans fought… America didn’t go into World War II or even World War I to be top nation… It went to defend things.” (06:02, Frum)
• Moral of Postwar Achievements:
  Frum urges listeners to remember the “quiet victories of peacetime,” such as alliances, trade agreements, and postwar reconstruction, which he sees as under threat today.

Segment: The Infrastructure of Corruption

Frum’s Framework: Six Categories of Trump-era Misconduct (11:24)

1. Attacks on due process/rights for disfavored groups.
2. Impunity for favored individuals (e.g., pardons for allies).
3. Foreign policy that undermines allies and supports dictators.
4. Restructuring the economy to facilitate state favoritism.
5. Hostility towards science and objective information.
6. Self-enrichment by Trump and inner circle—described as the "binding agent" of the above.

Quote:
“This time around, it’s very, very different… Trump is creating corruption and self-dealing on a scale that we’ve never seen in American history.”
(18:51, Anne Applebaum)

Anne Applebaum on Global Kleptocracy and Democratic Decline (13:33–17:32)

• Modern autocrats (from Russia to Venezuela) are united by their “interest in stealing and hiding money,” aided by global financial systems and Western complicity.
• Crackdowns on civil society often coincide with heightened corruption, as protest movements (like Ukraine’s Maidan) frequently organize around anti-corruption themes.
• In the U.S., rapid normalization of previously inconceivable corruption should alarm citizens, as it can precede institutional breakdown.

Evolution of Trump’s Corruption: First vs. Second Term (17:32–23:13)

• First term: Monetizing office in “small” ways (hotels, events).
• Second term: Far larger scale (crypto ventures, policy favors, deregulation) with clear preparation and little effective resistance.
• Specific mechanisms:
  • Emoluments Clause violations (hosting and profiting from foreign government events).
  • Regulatory capture (e.g., Elon Musk overseeing agencies that benefit his companies).
  • Deliberate non-enforcement of anti-bribery and transparency laws.
  • Direct self-dealing (World Liberty Financial crypto firm as a conduit for “hundreds of millions of dollars” from global interests).

Historical Comparison: Why This Corruption is Unique (23:13)

• Unlike Grant or Harding, previous “corrupt” presidents were inattentive rather than directly self-enriching at such a scale.

Segment: Accountability and Institutional Destruction

Challenges to Legal Recourse (25:05–29:12)

• The DOJ is now “fully controlled by the President,” with widespread resignations and overt partisanship among remaining staff.
• Loyalty tests (e.g., “What do you think happened on January 6th?”) as job qualifications.
• The rule of law, once based partly on tradition and professional ethos, is now at risk from active subversion.

Quote:
“We’re going to have a very, very partisan group of lawyers or pseudo lawyers… serving at the pleasure of the president, not there to enforce the Constitution or the legal system.”
(25:05, Applebaum)

Institutional Erosion as Both Strategy and Necessity (29:12–33:21)

• To avoid accountability for corruption, Trump and his associates are compelled to “break a lot of institutions”—DOJ, FBI, judiciary, free press, and transparency NGOs.
• The administration displays a sense of fear and persecuted victimhood stemming from real crimes and abuses, paralleling leaders like Netanyahu and Orbán.

Segment: Public Perception, Media, and Political Division

Why Corruption Doesn’t Outrage Americans (33:21–36:34)

• Lack of bipartisan accountability (“we’re missing Congress” as a check).
• Extreme partisanship means supporters are insulated and dismiss or justify Trump’s corruption by reference to minor (or unproven) misdeeds among opponents’ family members.
• Historic precedent: Only when paired with economic crisis (as in 1974) did the public and Congress demand real accountability.

Quote:
“There’s almost always a relative… Franklin Roosevelt’s children… were the Hunter Bidens of their day. But… you’re not telling yourself the truth [if you equate that to the president’s self-enrichment at scale].”
(36:34, Frum)

The Authoritarian Playbook: Lies, Numbness, and Apathy (38:22–43:35)

• Constant lying and outlandish statements (“restoring Alcatraz as a federal prison”) numb the public and media, making “important” lies hard to discern.
• Deliberate “noise” sows cynicism, dulls engagement, and fosters an environment ripe for further corruption.

Quote:
“You want the population to be dulled and bored and angry and cynical, and you want them all to stay home… We’ve seen this movie before in other countries.”
(42:17, Applebaum)

Segment: Personal Reckoning and Reflection

Facing Friends Who Choose Authoritarianism (43:35–48:04)

• Applebaum describes personal disappointment and struggle as friends and acquaintances, especially from conservative or anti-communist backgrounds, rationalize or even embrace Trump’s lawlessness and disdain for democratic norms.
• Voting for Trump is now a conscious choice to support a lawless figure; this will make it harder for people to “backtrack” even as abuses mount.

Quote:
“When you chose in 2024, you chose someone who had broken the law in multiple ways, and you knew it… They had to justify it to themselves… It’s going to be very hard to turn around and say that was wrong.”
(44:28, Applebaum)

A Hopeful Closing: Crisis as Catalyst (48:04–49:14)

• Frum speculates that moral crises like Watergate or the post-WWII reckoning can act as necessary “prods” to democratic renewal and civil progress.
• Applebaum notes a new generation’s awareness that “something is being lost” and their willingness to “protect it or… make sure it doesn’t happen again.”

Notable Quotes & Moments

• David Frum on postwar American exceptionalism:
  “If Americans are looking for a finest hour of their own… it’s the five, seven, ten years after the war, when Americans and others learned from the mistakes after the First World War and built a better world that we still enjoy.” (07:07)

• Anne Applebaum on anti-corruption as the linchpin of opposition movements:
  “The Ukrainians understood that they were poor because their leaders were rich… the one really successful opposition leader in Russia… was Alexei Navalny. His organization was called the Anti-Corruption Foundation, and he was murdered for galvanizing Russians around that theme.” (15:46)

• On breaking institutions:
  “The corruption agenda is possibly legally dangerous unless you break also all the rest of the state.” (28:18, Frum)

• Authoritarian fatigue as strategy:
  “When the President lies like that, he creates also an atmosphere where people say, like, ‘who knows what’s really true? I have no idea what any of this means. I’m just going to stay out of it. I’m staying home…’ So you can see the beginnings of really an attempt not just to keep journalists out… but also everybody out.” (39:28, Applebaum)

Important Timestamps

• 00:56 – Frum’s WWII reflection & Trump’s “Victory Day” post.
• 06:02 – Critique of Trump’s self-celebratory view of US history.
• 11:24 – Frum outlines six major corruption categories.
• 13:33 – Applebaum on the global autocrat “mafia” and money laundering.
• 15:46 – Russia, Ukraine, and corruption as political catalyst.
• 18:51 – Transformation of US presidential corruption under Trump.
• 23:13 – Historic comparison to Grant, Harding, FDR.
• 25:05 – DOJ captured; loyalty tests; loss of institutional independence.
• 29:12 – Logic of institutional breakdown to shield corruption.
• 34:25 – Why Americans ignore/justify large-scale corruption.
• 38:22 – How small scandals are conflated with systemic rot.
• 40:01 – The numbing effect of Trump’s endless stream of “noise.”
• 43:35 – Personal impact: coping with friends who embrace authoritarianism.
• 48:04 – Hopeful note on generational renewal and the potential for a galvanizing response.

Closing Thoughts

The episode argues that what separates the Trump era from past political scandals is not mere lawbreaking at the margins but an all-encompassing, self-aware project of self-enrichment and institutional destruction. Applebaum and Frum warn that this places the US alongside international kleptocracies, with grave risks for the rule of law and democracy. Yet, they note signs of hope: crises often force society to reckon with what matters, and a new generation may yet rise to the challenge of protecting American ideals.