The David Frum Show

Episode Title: The Rise of Technofascists
Release Date: October 1, 2025
Host: David Frum
Guest: Sam Harris

Episode Overview

In this episode, David Frum explores the alarming shift in Silicon Valley from the optimistic, democratizing ethos of the 1990s to a darker, more authoritarian political alignment in the present. Joined by Sam Harris, a prominent author and public intellectual, the conversation probes the new political culture emerging from tech leaders, the roots of tech-driven disinformation, and the threat these changes pose to American democracy. The episode concludes with a reflection on Robert Proctor’s book The Nazi War on Cancer, drawing complex links between political ideology, science, and public health.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Malicious Prosecution of James Comey & American Legal Vulnerability

[02:38–14:35]

• Frum opens with the prosecution of James Comey under the Trump administration, contrasting how such political prosecutions are institutionally blocked in most developed countries but not in the U.S.
• He explains how, in places like Germany and Canada, prosecutorial positions are deliberately insulated from political leaders, unlike the U.S. federal system where prosecutors answer to the President.
• Frum describes the degradation of post-Watergate norms that were meant to shield the Department of Justice and the FBI from political interference, culminating in Trump’s firings of successive FBI directors.
• He warns of the Supreme Court’s broad interpretations of presidential power as an existential threat to democratic institutions:
  “We are learning in the Trump years how much of the American system depends not just on the character of the president, but of the parties around him.” [12:55]

2. The Transformation of Tech Culture

Early Optimism vs. Today’s Reality

[15:23–17:51]

• Frum reflects on the hopeful language surrounding tech in the late 1990s and asks Harris, “Do you agree that it used to be different? What went wrong?”
• Harris responds that the initial expectation was:
  “Unlimited access to information would be intrinsically good and biasing toward us being increasingly in contact with reality.” [16:22]
• Instead, the digital environment now fosters fragmentation and echo chambers, even as scientific knowledge accelerates:
  “You can stay in your echo chamber and be as crazy as you want to be for as long as you want, and you can find millions of people to help you do it. And now, increasingly, with AI, you can find imaginary people to help you do it.” [17:41]

Information Environment and Public Health

[17:51–19:20]

• Frum cites rising measles outbreaks as a consequence of anti-vaccine misinformation thriving online, a reversal of previous public health victories:
  “It looks like the price we are paying for a new information environment is the return of completely preventable infectious disease.” [18:48]
• Harris wryly comments:
  “It might be a good time to invest in that iron lung company that you were thinking about. Maybe Tesla is going to make iron lungs.” [18:52]

3. Silicon Valley’s Political Realignment

The “Woke Backlash” and Authoritarian Appeal

[19:20–26:39]

• Harris notes that while high-profile Silicon Valley figures are vocalizing support for Trump or radical positions, the majority of the tech community remains “70:30 Democrat.”
• He situates much of the shift as backlash against left-wing excess and “wokeness” in elite and tech institutions, beginning with high-profile events like the Google memo firing and the MeToo movement.

The Changing Boss-Class Attitude

[24:02–28:31]

• Frum offers a theory: pandemic workforce disruptions, combined with woke and MeToo frustration, catalyzed an elite revolt, amplified by appeals to dubious “solutions” like Ivermectin favored on the right.
• Harris agrees COVID was a catalyst but insists the backlash started earlier, in 2017–2018:
  “…these very wealthy, smart people had their arms twisted to the point where they couldn’t figure out how they didn’t have to tolerate this. And then the dam broke at some point, and everyone reset their sense of what was normal…” [26:49]

Globalization, Dictatorship, and Tech Elites

[28:31–31:12]

• Frum proposes Silicon Valley’s growing admiration for autocracies where tech billionaires are more comfortable and influential than under American democracy.
• Harris responds that the “dictator-curious” tech figures are a small, idiosyncratic minority, heavily influenced by Ayn Rand or science fiction, and not representative of the whole.

4. Charity, Selfishness, and the Loss of Public Spiritedness

[31:12–34:40]

• Frum wonders if the political attitudes Harris describes explain the “startling lack of recent large scale charity from Silicon Valley.”
• Harris:
  “…these guys have a view of philanthropy that is very self serving if you imagine that your selfish interests are best served by holding onto all your money… there’s a lack of commitment to the common good that is palpable.” [31:21]
• Both agree Bill Gates is a rare exception, now vilified in online culture not for legitimate personal faults but for promoting life-saving vaccines:
  “…he is clearly the greatest philanthropist in human history… when you look at just how much energy the vaccine controversy got right of center online… it indicates how the derangement in our culture that many of these people are signaling to and becoming famous on the basis of.” [32:49]

5. Sincerity – Not Cynicism – in Conspiracy Cultures

[34:40–38:24]

• Frum observes that anti-vax tech leaders are not cynically exploiting misinformation—they believe it:
  “They actually, they’re in this whole craziness themselves. Amulets, incantations, and genuinely condemning Bill Gates… for advancing science and protecting people and saving lives.” [35:49]
• Harris laments that the fragmentation of information enables “a new religion of anti establishment conspiracy theorizing”:
  “…it’s selecting for the most confidently asserted lunacy that you can find.” [36:01]
• The expert–authority structure is collapsing:
  “If you can credibly say to some audience of millions that all the experts are lying and all the institutions are captured… then it’s the Tower of Babel moment, and we’re there.” [37:58]

6. Immortality, Science, and the Tech Billionaires’ Obsession

[38:24–43:00]

• Frum criticizes the quest for tech-enabled individual immortality, arguing that it’s a “Frankenstein-like” diversion from altruism and collective well-being.
• Harris differentiates between alleviating aging as disease and the quest for actual immortality, acknowledging moral ambiguities but defending pursuit of health spans:
  “…I think it’s possible that old age is really just an engineering problem that can ultimately be solved.” [40:00]

7. Will Tech Politics Change Again?

[45:01–49:19]

• Frum asks if the current trend is permanent: “Are there signs of a shift, or is this crew the future?”
• Harris remains (cautiously) hopeful:
  “…in many ways we are in a kind of Emperor’s New Clothes situation where the truth is obvious… and it’s just going unacknowledged because of perverse incentives and political pressures.” [45:40]
• He underscores the cowardice of ultra-wealthy tech leaders who placate Trump despite knowing better:
  “How many billions of dollars do you need to have a spine?” [46:33]
• Harris predicts a tipping point of revulsion may yet come:
  “…their collaboration with it is appalling and it will eventually be embarrassing. I think that is likely.” [49:13]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the fragility of American checks and balances:
  “The most important institution in American society, the Supreme Court is destroying the integrity of all the other institutions in American society. It’s a very dangerous situation…” — David Frum [12:28]

• On the mythology of the Internet:
  “It was very reasonable to expect that unlimited access to information would be intrinsically good…” — Sam Harris [16:22]

• On the new era of elite selfishness:
  “There’s a lack of commitment to the common good that is palpable…” — Sam Harris [31:21]

• On conspiracy culture’s sincerity:
  “They actually, they’re in this whole craziness themselves. Amulets, incantations, and genuinely condemning Bill Gates … for advancing science and protecting people and saving lives.” — David Frum [35:49]

• On how we lost informational guardrails:
  “It’s the Tower of Babel moment, and we’re there.” — Sam Harris [37:58]

• On the collapse of elite courage:
  “How many billions of dollars do you need to have a spine?” — Sam Harris [46:33]

Important Segment Timestamps

• Malicious prosecution & legal institutions: [02:38–14:35]
• Sam Harris interview introduction: [14:35–15:22]
• The Internet’s utopian promise vs. 2025 reality: [15:23–17:51]
• Pandemic, populist backlash & tech’s political realignment: [17:51–28:31]
• Tech charity and the Bill Gates exception: [31:12–34:40]
• Conspiracy culture sincerity: [34:40–38:24]
• Transhumanism, longevity, and ethical debate: [38:24–43:00]
• Will Silicon Valley’s politics improve?: [45:01–49:19]
• Book segment ("The Nazi War on Cancer"): [50:32–end]

Book Corner: The Nazi War on Cancer

[50:32–end]

• Frum discusses Robert Proctor's The Nazi War on Cancer, emphasizing how political imperatives often co-opt or distort public health campaigns—and drawing disturbing analogies to modern anti-vaccine and anti-science rhetoric.
• He observes that current American anti-vax and “wellness” movements blend elements of individualistic health myths, lack of empathy, and contempt for earned intellectual authority.
• “Human beings cannot be healthy in privacy. They can only be healthy collectively in solidarity with one another. And if you really hate the idea of solidarity… if you hate the idea of deferring to earned intellectual authority… you’re going to be kind of helpless in the world of modern medicine.” [approx. 54:00]

Summary & Takeaways

• The U.S. is uniquely vulnerable to illiberal abuses thanks to its legal structure and the erosion of unwritten post-Watergate norms.
• Silicon Valley’s most prominent voices have shifted from democratic optimism towards anti-empirical, sometimes authoritarian, postures—triggered by left-wing excesses, cultural backlash, and global business incentives.
• The new tech elite, despite their wealth, exhibit reduced public-spiritedness and charity; many sincerely believe in the pseudo-scientific and conspiratorial ideologies they promote.
• The public square’s informational chaos, and the undermining of professional and institutional expertise, drive both health and political crises.
• Despite the bleakness, Harris holds out hope for a future tipping point as the social and ethical costs of technofascism become undeniable.

For listeners seeking to understand the present crisis in American tech culture and democracy, this episode offers an incisive, often sobering, but occasionally hopeful analysis.