The David Frum Show

Episode: Trump Has Redefined Presidential Scandal
Date: January 14, 2026
Host: David Frum
Guest: Tim Naftali, historian and former Nixon Library Director
Published by: The Atlantic

Episode Overview

This episode explores how the Trump presidency has fundamentally transformed the nature and scale of presidential scandal in the United States. Host David Frum, alongside historian Tim Naftali, examines recent events—including alleged abuses of federal law enforcement, attacks on institutional guardrails, and the controversial plans for a Trump Presidential Library. The discussion contrasts Trump's era with historic scandals (such as Nixon and Watergate), analyzes the new forms of corruption and self-enrichment, and considers the implications for American democracy. The episode concludes with a meditation on the progress of moral consciousness in society, using Charlotte Brontë's “Jane Eyre” as a touchstone.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Current Crisis: Trump’s Second Term Escalates

• Rampant Federal Overreach:
  Frum describes a recent incident in which Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) personnel acted with excessive force in Minneapolis after the police shooting of motorist Renee Goode. Rather than investigate, ICE “reacted … by using ever more brutal methods” and acted “not like a proper federal law enforcement agency … [but] like the armed force of a political party occupying part of the country” ([03:00–04:00]).

• Trump’s Open Admiration for Authoritarian Methods:
  Trump gave a New York Times interview expressing regret that he didn’t order the National Guard to seize voting machines after the 2020 election—hinting he now sees ICE as his “tool for carrying out such schemes in the year ahead” ([04:00–05:00]).

• Political Prosecution and Economic Manipulation:
  The Trump Administration opened a criminal investigation into Jerome Powell, the Federal Reserve Chair, on dubious grounds—ostensibly to pressure the Fed into lowering interest rates before the 2026 elections. Powell pushed back publicly, supported by Republican Senator Thom Tillis ([05:00–06:30]).

• Dysfunctional Governance and Economic Fallout:
  Trump’s use of “crazy commands and fatwas into the economy,” including decrees about credit card rates and foreign resource grabs (notably oil investments in Venezuela), is denounced as both impulsive and abusive ([07:00–08:00]).

• A Crackup in the MAGA Movement:
  Frum sees Trump’s presidency as entering a “crazy death spiral,” with its unpopularity intensifying against the backdrop of a failing economy and mass job losses ([08:30–09:30]).

• Stark Warning:
  “MAGA is not America as we knew America could be… You can have the rule of law in America, or you can have the Trump-MAGA regime. Not both. This is going to be, in 2026, the year for choosing.”
  —David Frum ([09:45])

2. Presidential Libraries: Legacy and Scandal

Background: The Nixon Library as Precedent

• Naftali’s Experience at Nixon Library:
  Tim Naftali recounts being appointed the first Federal Director of the Nixon Library. Originally, the Nixon family ran a private library without presidential materials. Congressional action later moved official archives to Yorba Linda, necessitating new standards of non-partisan public history ([10:39–13:55]).

• Restoring Credibility:
  Naftali led efforts to create a true Watergate exhibit, resisting earlier attempts to portray Nixon as a victim. Declassification of materials and accessibility to the public were emphasized ([11:30–14:00]).

Trump’s Miami “Library”: Corruption and Self-Enrichment

• Land Transfer Scandal:
  Frum describes the Miami Trump library project, where state government transferred extremely valuable land (formerly of a community college) to a Trump-family-run trust for free, with plans for profitable developments like condos or a hotel ([13:55–15:06]).

• Presidential Libraries as Public Institutions:
  Naftali laments the loss of non-partisan, educative mission: “It’s sad that we’re going to lose yet another opportunity to learn about the complexities of this era, because the Trump library will be as disconnected from reality as possible” ([16:40]).

• A Broader Trend:
  Naftali criticizes Obama’s private library model for making it easier for Trump to pursue a “Trump Land” model instead of a public-facing institution ([15:06–17:20]).

• Memorable Quote:
  “Trump is our first developer president, and therefore he thinks of everything in terms of development, and of course, self-enrichment… The Trump library is going to reflect the mores and corruption of the era we’re living in.”
  —Tim Naftali ([19:02])

• Nixon vs Trump Library Ambitions:
  Even Nixon “wouldn’t have put a condo tower there” ([19:02]) and saw limits to self-dealing, contrasted sharply with Trump’s boundless pursuit of personal profit.

• Quote:
  “Nixon was a presidency who had a scandal, but Trump is a scandal who has a presidency.”
  —David Frum ([19:37])

3. Presidential Character: Nixon, Trump, and the Loss of Shame

• Complex Legacy:
  Naftali underscores Nixon’s contradictory nature: both capable of shame and aware of institutional boundaries.
  “Nixon had a sense of shame. He had a sense of legitimacy… he was thinking about Dwight Eisenhower and Franklin Roosevelt. He knew that the American people would not embrace his dark impulses” ([21:00–21:40]).

• Guardrails Broken:
  By contrast, Trump “has no sense of shame and no guardrails,” and his presidency “cannot be compared” with Nixon’s at all ([22:01–22:46]).

• Historical Anecdote:
  Frum and Naftali recount William Safire’s story about Nixon cherishing a desk he thought belonged to Woodrow Wilson (it was actually Henry Wilson’s), illustrating Nixon’s reverence for history and institutions—even if sometimes misplaced ([22:46–24:00]).

• Presidential Inspirations:
  Nixon admired Woodrow Wilson and Charles de Gaulle, both for their public idealism and their sense of not being the “beginning and end of American history”—a humility entirely absent in Trump, according to Naftali ([24:00–26:17]).

• Self-Dealing in Perspective:
  Nixon’s most notorious personal excess: getting the Secret Service to build a privacy screen around his pool—a triviality compared to “a billion dollar crypto scheme” and massive enrichment under Trump ([26:17–27:06]).

• Quote:
  “Richard Nixon was not a grifter. Richard Nixon also believed in allies… He wasn’t about to disrupt and destroy what he had inherited, even though he differed from some of his predecessors. We live in an era with a president who is disrupting and destroying because he can.”
  —Tim Naftali ([27:06])

4. Redefining Presidential Corruption

• Comparisons to Past Presidents:
  Discussion of corrupt presidents like Ulysses Grant and Warren Harding, noting that personal enrichment at the presidential level was rare. By contrast, Trump’s scale and directness are unprecedented ([27:39–29:31]).

• Quote:
  “If Trump were Russian, if Trump were Nigerian, he’d be one of the contenders for the most corrupt president in Nigerian or Russian history. … Not for the head of the New York Customs House, but for a president in American history.”
  —David Frum ([29:31])

• Global Implications:
  The Trump administration is allegedly using diplomatic relationships and war zones (like in Congo and Venezuela) to enrich himself and his inner circle, leveraging the unique power of the U.S. presidency in ways unheard of by previous leaders ([30:31–32:01]).

5. Foreign Policy: From System to Spheres of Influence

Trump’s Mercantilist “Weak-State” Approach

• Venezuela & Oil Grabs:
  The U.S. under Trump is intervening in Venezuela, not for collective security or ideological reasons, but so “his buddies are going to benefit … It has nothing to do with the interests of the United States.”
  —Tim Naftali ([34:43])

• From Global System to Zero-Sum:
  Frum: “During the Cold War… the American interest was always a world system… Spheres of influence are what declining powers want” ([35:55–37:01]).

• The Monroe Doctrine:
  Once a doctrine of weakness and dependency on British power, it evolved as the U.S. grew stronger.
  Historical insight: The original enforcement mechanism for the Monroe Doctrine was the British Navy, not U.S. strength ([38:01–38:35]).

• Lawyers and Retreat from Imperialism:
  By the 1930s, American policymakers recognized the folly of interventions and shifted policy towards non-intervention in Latin America ([40:23–42:37]).

• Cautions Against New Intervention:
  Naftali warns of creating a failed state in Venezuela and embarking on further reckless expansions ([43:50–45:06]).

6. The Trump Library’s Future and Money Laundering Concerns

• Will It Be Built?
  Frum speculates that although Trump now craves a legacy, the political winds and donor cash-flow post-presidency may stall the Miami project. Donors are motivated by transactional interests, not personal support ([45:13–46:48]).

• Potential Financial Shenanigans:
  Naftali suggests the library could become part of an “elaborate laundering mechanism” for foreign influence buy-ins and payoffs ([46:48]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Nixon was a presidency who had a scandal, but Trump is a scandal who has a presidency.”
  —David Frum ([19:37])

• “I really believe it is healthy for a country to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of our presidents, rather than seeing them as these totems or saints that are perfect—or devils.”
  —Tim Naftali ([20:35])

• “He has no sense of shame and no guardrails.”
  —Tim Naftali, contrasting Trump with Nixon ([22:01])

• “If Trump were Russian … he’d be one of the contenders for the most corrupt president in Russian or Nigerian history.”
  —David Frum ([29:31])

• “The Monroe Doctrine was a product of weakness, not strength.”
  —Tim Naftali ([39:40])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Monologue on Trumpian Chaos: 00:41–10:01
• Nixon Library and Public History: 10:39–15:06
• Trump Library Corruption and Self-Dealing: 15:06–21:00
• Presidential Shame: Nixon vs. Trump: 21:00–24:41
• Nixon's Contradictions and Example: 24:41–27:06
• Redefining Corruption in the Trump Era: 27:39–32:01
• From Global System to Spheres of Influence: 32:01–40:03
• Monroe Doctrine Deep Dive: 37:01–42:37
• Trump’s Intervention in Venezuela: 42:37–45:06
• Will the Trump Library Be Built? 45:06–47:50

Closing Reflection: Jane Eyre and the Revolution Against Cruelty

• Literary Turn:
  Frum concludes the episode with a reading from "Jane Eyre," focusing on the novel’s depiction of child suffering as marking a revolution in moral consciousness. He traces how literature came to recognize the “feelings of the young child” as worthy of respect and protection, tying the transformation in literature to broader social progress ([48:01–end]).

• Quote:
  “The rejection of cruelty is one of the proudest things about modern humanity, and it’s good to meet it at the beginning of its career and to speed it along its way at this later phase in its career.”
  —David Frum

Summary

This episode weaves together a searing indictment of the Trump presidency’s impact on democratic institutions and public trust, a historical analysis of presidential scandal and legacy, and a reflection on the trajectory of American moral and civic progress. Frum and Naftali’s conversation is both urgent and reflective, using history as a lens to clarify the unprecedented challenges of the present.

For Further Listening

• Explore Tim Naftali’s work on presidential history
• Read up on the history of presidential libraries and American political scandals
• Revisit “Jane Eyre” to reflect on moral progress and the rejection of cruelty

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