The David Frum Show — “Trump’s Betrayal of Ukraine”

Host: David Frum
Guest: Ambassador Bridget Brink
Date: July 2, 2025
Podcast: The Atlantic

Overview

In this timely and urgent episode, David Frum sits down with Ambassador Bridget Brink, former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, to dissect the shifting contours of American foreign policy toward Ukraine under the Biden and Trump administrations. Brink, who resigned in protest earlier this year, offers a gripping inside account of her service, the existential stakes for Ukraine, and the grave consequences of the Trump administration’s approach, which she characterizes as actively hostile and indifferent to democracy’s defense abroad.

1. The Stakes: Why Ukraine’s Struggle Matters (00:56–08:32)

• Frum’s Opening Reflections: David Frum opens with a broad argument about the “extraordinary system of peace and security” built by the U.S. since 1945. He frames the Ukraine war as a defining test of American commitment to democracy and the global order.
  • “All of those things that we take for granted… are one of the prizes for the American investment in global peace and security.” (02:08)
• Contextualizing the War: Frum succinctly recaps Russia’s escalating aggression against Ukraine, from the annexation of Crimea in 2014 to the 2022 full-scale invasion.
  • He stresses that the war is not merely about territory but “Ukraine’s sovereign existence.” (03:39)
• Critique of U.S. Policy:
  • The Biden administration was “never in time and never enough”; help for Ukraine was always too slow, especially at crucial moments (e.g., summer 2023). (05:10)
  • Now, under Trump, the U.S. has shifted from insufficient support to “outright hostility to Ukraine,” seeking to “pressure Ukraine to a negotiated form of submission.” (06:17)
  • Frum muses that the deeper motives behind Trump’s attachment to Russia remain mysterious, but the “what”––the damage being done––is clear.

Quote:

“If the war was not won by November of 2024, it might never be won at all.” — David Frum (05:31)

2. Ambassador Brink’s Story: Diplomacy in a War Zone (08:32–14:43)

• Early Appointment and Commitment: Brink shares how she was approached for the ambassadorship, even as prospects of closing the embassy loomed with the war’s escalation.
  • “I said, no, I absolutely am committed. I think this position is more important now than maybe ever. And so keep going.” (09:58)
• Arrival in Ukraine: She describes arriving in Kyiv by land in May 2022 amid historic uncertainty and under-resourced conditions.
  • On reopening the embassy with virtually “nothing you could plug into the wall,” and the unexpected challenge of restoring functionality while under threat. (11:14)
• Living and Working at the Embassy: Brink recounts sleeping in the embassy for three months and her reluctance to move, so as to “work at the speed of war.”
  • “It was like an honor of a lifetime, really… even though it was so challenging and hard every single minute of every single day.” (14:22)

3. Life Under Fire: The Realities of War (14:43–16:53)

• Frequent Threats: Brink details missile threats and shrapnel damage to various embassy locations, especially before American air defense systems arrived.
  • “So many times we had situations where missiles… would hit really close to wherever we were and that we had shrapnel, hit a building… that we were in.” (15:07)
• Travel Dangers: Movement by train was the safest and most efficient option, even as security threats persisted.
  • She narrates a harrowing trip to Odessa: “The train stopped… and I hear him just say, yes, yes. He comes back to me and he says, there’s a missile directed, it's going to land somewhere near us...” (18:20)

4. Assessing Ukraine’s State: Military and Economic (20:22–22:19)

• Recent Successes: Reference to Ukraine’s disabling of Russian bombers (possibly up to 40); Brink praises Ukrainian resilience but underscores the civilian toll from ongoing Russian drone and missile strikes.
• Putin’s Tactics: Brink argues Putin is feigning negotiations while waging war, betting the West will allow him to shift facts on the ground.
  • “Putin has figured out that he can show or pretend… that he's ready to negotiate while he continues to fight on the ground.” (20:55)

5. The Trump Administration: Policy, Pressure, and Dysfunction (22:19–39:25)

• Fighting for the Obvious: Frum notes that Brink repeatedly defends clear truths (Russia as aggressor, the value of defending Ukraine), as though there are powerful, irrational counterarguments at play in Washington.
  • Brink reflects: “What’s at risk now is so much bigger than just Ukraine… we’re taking away some of the foundation of what has built our own prosperity.” (24:44)
• Deterioration of U.S. Policy Process:
  • Brink’s experience under Trump contrasts sharply with her prior bipartisan career. She describes an atmosphere where “every day I woke up and I was told I might be fired.”
  • Under Biden, she felt able to make recommendations, win or lose; under Trump, dissent was not tolerated and the policy process was “chaos.”
  • “In my experience in this Trump administration, there was no space to make recommendations if they conflicted with whatever… the president [perceived]. That’s highly problematic.” (28:02)
• Destructive Impact on Institutions: Fear among career officials leads to self-censorship and an inability to give frank advice, undermining American interests and accountability.

Quote:

“You need institutions that can offer advice and guidance so that the president can make the best decision. And… that is a structure that exists and has existed in every administration… But what has happened… is that what happens with the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy becomes not a strong advocate…” — Bridget Brink (29:42)

• On Trump’s Motives and Process:
  • Brink describes a “bifurcated,” chaotic policy process in which it was unclear who actually wielded decision-making power on Ukraine.
  • Frum’s pointed question: “So you're saying it's kind of a secret hierarchy where theoretically the Secretary of State is in charge, but actually the President of the Kennedy Center is a lot more important...” (38:39)

6. Moral Choices for American Public Servants (32:49–36:30)

• On Serving Under Trump: Brink advises that anyone considering service must weigh their conscience carefully—serve if you can, retrain or resign if you cannot.
  • “Work and do everything possible to serve our country and do the best that you can. But if you come to that point, you have to make that decision.” (34:16)
• Advice to Colleagues: Acknowledges it’s especially fraught now, as everyone “knows what it’s going to be” in a second Trump term—requiring an honest assessment about whether one can serve without betraying American values or one’s conscience.

7. Ukraine’s View of America Now (39:25–41:31)

• Ukrainian Disillusionment: Brink recounts her last days in Ukraine, referencing a senior Ukrainian official who pointed to a “peace plan” presented by the U.S. that included Putin’s “wish list.”
  • “You were our closest strategic partner. And that's all he said. And I had nothing I could say.” (39:42)
• Sense of Loss: Frum presses whether Ukraine feels the U.S. is “lost to them,” and Brink admits that even she, and many experts, struggle to comprehend the turn.

Quote:

“I think it’s bad for America to be where we are. It’s not who we are. And I just… we have to be on the right side of history. There are very few pivotal moments in history. And as someone who has now done this for 28 years, I think it’s vital that we stand on the right side.” — Ambassador Bridget Brink (41:01)

8. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the Biden Administration’s Policy:
  • “President Biden's policy was to say, what does Ukraine need? Give them half, and give it late.” — David Frum (04:26)
• On American Democracy and Leadership:
  • “We, the United States, support democracy and freedom at home and abroad. We… think that we need to stop aggressors from achieving their goals…” — Ambassador Brink (25:29)
• On Institutional Decay:
  • “There was no space to make recommendations if they conflicted with whatever was the… view of the president. That's highly problematic.” — Ambassador Brink (28:18)
• On Moral Choices Left:
  • “Work as if it’s your last day in government and think about everything you do, especially in places that are such high stakes as Ukraine… as if you’re not going to have a job tomorrow.” — Ambassador Brink (34:52)
• On the Historic Stakes:
  • “There are very few pivotal moments in history. And… I think it’s vital that we stand on the right side.” — Ambassador Brink (41:09)

9. Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:56 – 08:32: Frum’s opening monologue, framing the stakes and defining U.S. policy shift on Ukraine
• 08:32 – 14:43: Brink’s origins as Ambassador, arrival in war-torn Kyiv, restoring embassy functions
• 14:43 – 16:53: Life, danger, and daily realities in Kyiv and on the road
• 20:22 – 22:19: Ukraine’s military and economic resilience; Putin’s “negotiating while bombing”
• 22:19 – 39:25: Dysfunction under Trump, pressure on dissent, hollowing out of policy process, advice for career public servants
• 39:25 – 41:31: Ukrainians’ view of America now, sense of loss and historical responsibility

10. Tone and Style

Throughout, the conversation is urgent, informed, and deeply personal. Frum’s tone is direct and concerned; Brink’s is candid and measured, blending professional insight with genuine emotion. The mood is serious and at times somber, with occasional flashes of grim humor ("gravity works") amidst the gravity of the topic.

Summary Takeaway

This episode dramatically illuminates the real-world consequence of U.S. foreign policy choices for the survival of democracy abroad and the strength of American institutions at home. Ambassador Brink’s testimony is a sobering call for urgent debate and action, not just on Ukraine, but on defending democracy as America’s defining value.

"We have to be on the right side of history." — Ambassador Bridget Brink (41:01)