The David Frum Show — Trump’s National-Security Disaster

Host: David Frum | Guest: Ambassador Susan Rice
Date: May 21, 2025 | Podcast: The Atlantic

Episode Overview

This episode explores the state of American democracy and national security under the Trump administration, focusing on the “SignalGate” scandal, the erosion of national security process, and the impact on alliances and adversaries. David Frum opens with a reflection on the economic grievances underpinning Trump’s appeal and then interviews former National Security Advisor Susan Rice for an expert assessment of the Trump administration’s security missteps, the consequences of accumulating scandals, and the dire implications for global stability.

Key Discussion Points

1. Understanding Economic Grievances and Their Political Impact

Timestamps: 00:21–17:22

• Material Grievance vs. Irrational Politics:
  Frum challenges the assumption that support for Trump is purely economic, arguing that social and status anxieties are deeply intertwined with political dissatisfaction.
  • “What reactionary and fascist forces have always understood is there's plenty of irrationalism in the human being, and that's a real resource.” (04:40, Frum)
• Wage Stagnation: The Numbers Mislead:
  Frum discusses how the frequently cited statistics about declining working-class wages don’t capture true advances in American living standards over the past 40 years—adjustments in quality of goods, household income, social benefits, and especially the effects of massive immigration.
• Trade as a Convenient Scapegoat:
  Both Trump and, to a lesser extent, Biden have embraced economic protectionism, exploiting a misreading of the actual causes of economic malaise.
  • “If you're trying to come up with an explanation of the problems of American life that leave Americans out of it ... trade allows you to say it's the foreigners, the foreigners that are to blame.” (13:35, Frum)
• Broader Roots of Trumpism:
  Trumpian politics aren’t unique to the U.S. or explainable solely by economics; similar movements have risen worldwide, tied to broader cultural and status anxieties.
• Policy Prescription:
  Frum argues that the working-class plight would be better addressed by universal health insurance, not tariffs or protectionism.

2. National Security Meltdown: The SignalGate Scandal

Timestamps: 18:10–36:57

• Critical Vacuum in Security Leadership:
  David Frum and Susan Rice discuss the “crazy signal scandal” and the incapacity of Marco Rubio, who is absurdly juggling four senior roles (Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, USAID administrator, and acting Archivist).
  • “No human, however competent ... can do all of those jobs or even two of those jobs effectively.” (20:30, Rice)
• Proper Role of the National Security Advisor:
  Rice explains the vital coordinating responsibilities of the job and the impossibility of mixing it with other cabinet positions.
  • “The National Security Advisor is meant to be an honest broker ... fairly and accurately, without spin, representing the views of the other national security cabinet members.” (23:27, Rice)
• The SignalGate Scandal:
  Top-level national security deliberations (including military operations in Yemen) were conducted over Signal chats, with minimal deliberation and grossly inadequate security.
  • “Deliberations ... did not take place as they should have in the White House Situation Room ... [Instead] these guys did it with emojis and shorthand on Signal.” (24:46–25:36, Rice)
  • “Operational details ... were extraordinarily sensitive and highly classified.” (26:32, Rice)
• Grave Security Risks:
  Using an app like Signal exposed U.S. military plans to hacking and foreign espionage, directly endangering American personnel.
  • “If the Chinese had done that or the Russians ... that could have meant that our operational security was compromised and that our pilots ... were at direct risk.” (27:03–27:28, Rice)
• Pattern of Recklessness:
  The administration’s casual attitude toward classified information and standard process is seen as “incredibly reckless and incredibly dangerous.” (27:31, Co-Host/Analyst)
• Overwhelming Scandal Strategy:
  The administration heaps scandal upon scandal—diluting public focus and numbing accountability.
  • “They flood the zone with so much crap on a daily basis, so many lies, so much obfuscation, so much gaslighting that their BS just overwhelms people's capacity to absorb it. And obviously they know that, and that's... their modus operandi.” (30:27–30:42, Co-Host)

Notable Quotes

• “This Trump administration ... just doesn’t give a goddamn about what they say or what they do.” (29:11, Rice)
• “Signalgate should be as big a national security scandal as any we've seen in decades.” (30:01, Rice)

3. Corruption and Constitutional Abuse: Qatar Jet Offer

Timestamps: 28:08–36:40

• Qatar's $400M Jet for Trump:
  Frum and Rice highlight the serious legal, ethical, and security breaches involved in Trump reportedly accepting a plane from Qatar for personal use after office.
  • “It’s not just the corruption this represents ... It’s the national security consequences.” (33:19–33:25, Rice)
  • “If a foreign government has built or overseen the production of an aircraft and then hands it off … we have no idea [what surveillance devices] they’ve put in it.” (33:35–33:51, Co-Host/Analyst)
• Blatant Violation of the Constitution:
  The Emoluments Clause very clearly forbids acceptance of such gifts without Congressional approval—and this historical norm is now blithely ignored.
  • “Receiving a large gift from a foreign potentate is their [the Founders’] definition … of what counts as an impeachable offense.” (35:10, Frum)
  • “It’s blatantly illegal, blatantly unconstitutional, and a supreme act of unprecedented corruption.” (36:40, Rice)

4. Broken Alliances & Geopolitical Fallout

Timestamps: 36:57–43:41

• Allies Losing Faith:
  The U.S. has damaged core alliances, especially with Canada and NATO partners, by applying arbitrary tariffs and demonstrating unpredictability.
  • “The most important thing that’s been lost is the trust of our allies in American commitments … you can’t get that back.” (37:24–37:58, Rice)
  • “Trump imposes tariffs designed to bring the Canadian economy to its knees and speaks … of turning Canada into the 51st state ... incredibly offensive.” (39:41–40:02, Rice)
• Allies Feel Betrayed:
  Even Canada, a steadfast partner, is disillusioned—this is long-term damage that will not vanish even with a new administration.
• Adversary Assessment – China and Russia:
  • China “Laughing” at U.S. Disarray:
    China leverages the U.S. administration’s erratic trade policy for its own gain and sees Trump not as a tough guy but a bully vulnerable to being called out.
    • “China plays the long game ... they understand that in a trade war with the United States, in many ways they have the upper hand.” (41:17, Co-Host/Analyst)
  • Russia Faces No Pressure:
    Trump has imposed no tariffs on Russia, and his administration is seen as capitulating to Putin, especially regarding Ukraine.
    • “Trump bows down to Putin, tiptoes around him and sells out our allies and Ukraine …” (43:41, Co-Host/Analyst)

5. The Fate of Ukraine

Timestamps: 44:00–46:47

• Bleak Prospects Under Trump:
  If Trump cuts off support, Ukraine’s survival becomes “bleak, not impossible, but bleak.”
  • “If Trump were to decide that he's cutting off intelligence support ... military assistance ... I think it is bleak for Ukraine.” (44:15–44:40, Rice)
  • Only a change in Trump’s calculus, e.g., if Putin “overplays his hand,” might prevent total Ukrainian catastrophe.

6. Absence of Process in U.S. Governance

Timestamps: 46:47–49:52

• No Policy Process, No Briefings:
  Rice describes the Trump administration as operating with virtually no policy process—key decisions are left to the President’s whim, personal ego, and “flood the zone“ chaos.
  • “Everything small and large ... is a Trump decision … it’s not clear that anything like the structure or the rigor that you would find in normal administrations exists in this context.” (47:05–47:26, Rice)
  • Trump has reportedly received the Presidential Daily Brief— the highest-level intelligence update — only 12 times in 100+ days.
    • “If any other president had ... opted not to receive the Presidential Daily Briefing ... it would be a huge, huge scandal ... That's a key part of the job. So there is no process, as far as I can tell.” (48:57, Rice)
• Difference Between Intel Briefings and News:
  Intelligence provided is unique, sourced from classified collection and analysis, vastly superior to open sources or TV news.
  • “Trust me, it’s very different from Fox News.” (49:51, Rice)

7. Grim Risks on the Horizon

Timestamps: 50:08–52:35

• Dangers Ahead:
  Rice warns of additional, escalating risks: potential defiance of court orders by the administration, threats to habeas corpus, even imposition of martial law under manufactured crisis.
  • “We could soon potentially see them outright, blatantly and unapologetically defying court orders, including orders from the Supreme Court ...” (50:26, Rice)
• National Responsibility:
  Rice closes with a call for all citizens to insist on the rule of law and constitutional norms—through electoral accountability above all.
  • “All of us, regardless of party affiliation ... have an obligation to insist … that the President and his administration abide by the rule of law in the Constitution ... and ... they pay for it ... at the ballot box and in the court of public opinion.” (52:09–52:35, Rice)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Scandal Overload:
  “It does seem like if you’re going to do one bad thing, you might as well do one hundred, because the average survival rate seems to go up.” (28:34, Frum)
• On Process Failure:
  “There is no process, as far as I can tell.” (48:57, Rice)
• On Accepting the Qatar Jet:
  “It’s just insane.” (36:35, Rice)
• On Trump’s Style of Lying:
  “Donald Trump would just look you in the eye and say, nope, I didn't when he did ... he sounds honest. Whereas the person tiptoeing around ... sounds like a crook.” (31:29–32:12, Frum)
• On Ukraine’s Prospects:
  “Not impossible, but bleak.” (44:40, Rice)
• On Rule of Law:
  “Poll after poll shows that Americans want and expect their president to adhere to court orders to respect the Constitution and the rule of law.” (51:49, Rice)

Conclusion

This episode provides a stark, comprehensive account of the dangers posed by Trump’s second term approach to national security, rule of law, and democratic accountability. Susan Rice’s analysis is both sobering and urgent, with warnings about the irreparable loss of trust among allies, the emboldening of adversaries, and the undermining of America’s constitutional fabric.

For listeners seeking clarity on the deep, systemic changes underway in U.S. national security and foreign policy—and why these issues matter for democracy—this episode is essential.