The David Frum Show: "What the Neocons Got Right"

Podcast: The David Frum Show
Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: David Brooks (Columnist, The New York Times; Contributor, The Atlantic)
Date: January 28, 2026

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode grapples with the enduring lessons—and regrets—of the neoconservative movement in American politics, especially as the country faces a moral and democratic crisis under the ongoing Trump administration (second term, 2026). Host David Frum and guest David Brooks revisit the roots, achievements, contradictions, and warnings of neoconservatism, probing what this tradition might offer to a wounded, polarized America. The episode connects intellectual history directly to current events: abuses by law enforcement, government corruption, the erosion of democratic norms, and debates over how to respond to Trumpism post-defeat.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Monologue: Crisis in American Democracy

• Frum sets the scene with a dire update on current events: foreign troop deployments, US-Canada tensions, Trump’s Nobel aspirations, and most shockingly, fatal abuses by law enforcement in Minneapolis (00:00–09:19).
  • Personal rights are being trampled, and citizens are split on whether this is acceptable.
  • Frum asks: “Can an American citizen be gunned down on the streets of his own city while carrying in his hands nothing more dangerous than a cell phone?” (07:53)
• He invokes the historical struggle for civil liberties and frames democratic backsliding as a national crisis, warning of deeper abuses to come.
• The episode will explore: How can democracy be defended, and what—if anything—can be learned from neoconservatism right now?

2. What is Neoconservatism? Origins, Evolution, and Meaning

Brooks traces the intellectual and social origins of neoconservatism (09:47–16:20):

• Born from 1930s-era City College of New York intellectuals—mostly Jewish former communists, especially Trotskyites who later became Roosevelt Democrats.
• Neocons were shaped by:
  • Early faith in rational technocratic policy.
  • Disillusionment with failed 1960s social planning and urban decay.
  • A move toward “bourgeois values”—hard work, decency, neighborliness.
• Famous definition: “A neoconservative is a liberal who’s been mugged by reality.” (Irving Kristol, cited by Brooks, 13:21)
• Not just a Republican or hawkish label—its roots and approach were once part of Democratic dissent.

3. Neoconservatism’s Core Insights

Brooks argues neoconservatism’s most relevant contributions are:

• Policy must be linked with moral and cultural growth—not just technical fixes (14:31–16:31).
• Societies depend on shared virtues: “The elemental question is, can we build a civilization we can be proud of, and can we nurture values—the right kind of values?” (15:12)
• These include universal, not just personal or tribal, standards of dignity and decency.

4. The Collapse of Moral Order & Rise of Nihilism

Brooks and Frum lament the right’s turn from conservative ideals towards anti-liberal nihilism (16:31–23:36):

• Neoconservatism stressed moral formation, but the right has moved toward church-state fusion, outright fascism, or “oppositional nihilism.”
• Example: The Dartmouth Review crew (Laura Ingraham, Dinesh D’Souza) as anti-left rather than pro-conservative—seeking to “offend the bourgeoisie” and escalate “edgy nihilism.”
  • “They just want to offend the bourgeoisie. And so that's what it's become...” (Brooks, 21:27)
• Trumpism represents this degeneration: “These are not pro conservative. These are oppositional nihilists who hate the liberal establishment.” (Brooks, 22:06–22:13)
• The left, Brooks says, also contributed by privatizing morality and abandoning shared norms.

5. The Iraq War and “Neocon” Critique

How did neoconservatism and the Iraq War become intertwined? (23:36–28:56)

• Brooks admits neocons supported the Iraq invasion as part of a “democratic wave”—fighting evil regimes was integral to their idealism.
  • But: “We ignored...epistemological modesty. Be careful about trying to change complex circumstances...And we forgot that lesson.” (Brooks, 25:24)
• The Iraq hangover bred deep American reluctance to intervene globally, undermining faith in U.S. democratic leadership.

6. What Should Liberals Take from Neoconservatism?

Are any neoconservative lessons useful for progressives or liberals now? (28:56–32:55)

• Brooks: Key values—universal moral order, human dignity, shared norms—transcend left/right.
  • “Right and wrong are written into the fabric of the universe. And when you have that social order, people feel held. You can have a society...” (Brooks, 30:46)
• The privatization of values led to anomie, division, and paved the way for Trumpist power-centric politics.

7. After Trump: Retaliation or Reconciliation?

What should happen after Trumpism is defeated in an election? Frum poses the question: should the nation look forward (as Biden did in 2021), or pursue legal and moral reckoning (as with post-1989 Eastern Europe)? (32:55–39:34)

• Brooks is wary of mass punishment:
  • “I think societies move forward...through a process of rupture and repair. Trump has ruptured our society...You just move on.” (36:32)
  • Cites the example of Ford pardoning Nixon as a way to “turn the page.”
• Frum worries this lets deep structures of wealth and power persist without accountability, allowing future abuses.

8. The Challenge of Social and Political Structures

• Frum points out lasting problems: new plutocratic elites, changes to media and law enforcement, the persistence of Trump-created structures.
  • “...people who became corrupt billionaires under Trump will remain corrupt billionaires with all the political power that that entails, including, by the way, Trump's children...” (37:57)
• Brooks concedes: Americans' post-2008 lack of justice “was a moral job undone”; sometimes “you do have to have truth and reconciliation with the emphasis on truth.” (39:34)
• The real task is separating voters with genuine needs from “cronies”—and responding to working-class alienation.

9. Education, Class, and Partisan Realignment

• Brooks: Education is now a more powerful predictor than income; today’s GOP is, at least nominally, a working-class party (41:27–43:10).
  • “...the single most, the best predictor of voting pattern is no longer income. It basically is not a predictor...It’s education levels.” (41:43)
• Frum points to policy contradictions: Trump’s tariffs and tax changes favor plutocrats, and immigration crackdowns threaten the multi-racial coalition.

10. How Do Egregious Ideas Get Discredited?

• Frum asks: What would it take for Trumpism to be truly repudiated, as fascism and nativism once were after WWII? (45:33–47:57)
• Brooks: Only broad public opinion can truly discredit such ideologies, not just elite action. But, “no argument is ever settled—[political ideas] come back.”

11. The Future of American Institutions

• Both express anxiety that post-Trump, the presidency will never return to its old, self-restrained model. Trump “has shown you can crash through all those restraints, both legal and normative…” (Brooks, 49:26)
• Frum: The system has proved “much more vulnerable than anybody thought...to authoritarian means for plutocratic ends” (49:09).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A neoconservative is a liberal who’s been mugged by reality.”
  — David Brooks quoting Irving Kristol (13:21)

• “Can an American citizen be gunned down on the streets of his own city while carrying in his hands nothing more dangerous than a cell phone? Opinion is split.”
  — David Frum (07:53)

• “They just want to offend the bourgeoisie...and then they’ve produced spawn of young people who just think that’s cool. That’s edgy. And of course, you have to up the dosage when you’re giving people edgy nihilism.”
  — David Brooks (21:27)

• “Right and wrong are written into the fabric of the universe. And when you have that social order, people feel held. You can have a society.”
  — David Brooks (30:46)

• “We are not going to go back to the Republican Party that you and I knew in 1990. It’s going to be a working-class party.”
  — David Brooks (41:57)

• “Trump has shown you can crash through all those restraints, both the legal and normative ones. And I have trouble believing any future president is going to want to give back all that power.”
  — David Brooks (49:26)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – 09:19: Frum’s opening monologue: American crisis, abuses under Trump, preview of topics
• 09:47 – 16:20: Neoconservatism’s origins and character (Brooks explains the tradition)
• 16:31 – 23:36: The right’s moral decay, from conservatism to nihilism and Trumpism
• 23:36 – 28:56: Neoconservatives and the Iraq War; the cost of lost idealism
• 28:56 – 32:55: Universal values, the breakdown of shared morality, lessons for liberals
• 32:55 – 39:34: Punish or forgive post-Trump—how to restore democracy and account for corruption
• 41:27 – 43:10: Redefining “working class”; education’s central role in new party divides
• 45:33 – 47:57: Can/Will Trumpism be truly discredited?
• 49:26 – 50:22: Future of the presidency and institution-building after Trump

Additional Content

Book & Media Segment (51:14–)

• Frum briefly reviews the Netflix miniseries "Death by Lightning" about President Garfield, critiquing its historical omissions and drawing parallels between past and present tragic political choices.

Summary Assessment

This episode weaves intellectual history and urgent current events, arguing that the neoconservative insistence on shared virtue, skepticism about policy “engineering,” and faith in universal values remain deeply relevant—even as neoconservatism’s own record (especially Iraq) is deeply contested. The dialogue is candid, often somber, and rooted in a concern for America’s moral and institutional survival facing renewed internal threats. If you missed it, this conversation offers a rich, provocative map of the American right’s past, present, and possible futures—a must for anyone trying to understand the crossroads American democracy faces in 2026.