Podcast Summary: The David Frum Show – "Why America Isn’t Rome (And Why That Matters)"

Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: Dame Mary Beard, classicist and Roman historian
Air Date: August 27, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the perennial temptation to compare modern America with ancient Rome. David Frum and renowned classicist Mary Beard dissect the uses and misuses of Roman analogies in American political discourse, examining why such comparisons are both irresistible and often misleading. They delve into what makes fascism unique as an analytic category, discuss the real differences between Rome and America, challenge myths about the fall of Rome, and stress the importance of learning from history—without misreading it.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Use & Abuse of History

• Frum opens by critiquing the modern abundance of information and misinformed historical analogies ([00:11]):
  • “The problem that we have is … an abundance of information, but people consistently choose bad information so often. And that is especially true in the realm of the use and abuse of history.” —David Frum (00:57)
  • Modern media—unlike centralized 20th-century broadcasters—caters to niche interests, enabling groups seeking historical justification for fringe (even fascist) views.

2. Understanding Fascism and Analytic Categories

• Fascism as more than an insult—a global movement with distinct methods and goals ([03:00]):
  • Frum outlines how fascism, unlike socialism or liberalism, is defined by the friend/enemy distinction and cult of the charismatic leader, rather than ideological consistency.
  • “Fascism is inspired by the search for enemies of the group. And whenever you see people with a strong friend versus enemy way of thinking … that’s the emotional juice on which fascism feeds.” —David Frum (09:40)
• Statism without equality: Fascism desires control for the group’s aggrandizement, not for uplifting all citizens.

3. Culture Wars and the Politics of Nostalgia

• Frum uses the example of Cracker Barrel’s rebranding backlash ([11:30]):
  • Such flashpoints are less about genuine grievances and more a process of “identifying enemies”—hallmark behavior of fascist politics.
  • “The test isn’t the issue. The test is the search for enemies and the ingathering of allies to create a friend, foe distinction.” —David Frum (12:24)
• Defeating Fascism: The long-term answer is upholding liberty and equality; in the short term, ridicule and humor can deflate fascism’s self-importance (citing Chaplin’s The Great Dictator).

In-Depth Interview with Mary Beard

4. The Role of Roman Analogies in Western & American Thought

• On why we look to Rome:

  • “The temptation is irresistible to make comparisons with the Roman world. I think that's what Rome has done for the west ever since it ceased to be Rome really...” —Mary Beard (16:01)
  • Cautions against treating Roman history as a ‘supermarket shelf’ of convenient comparisons.

• Morality tales and historical distortions:

  • Both left and right cherry-pick from Rome to support modern agendas, often overlooking nuance.
  • Popular media (films, tabloids) perpetuate fantasies of Roman “licentiousness” or brutality, while we indulge similar behaviors in fictional form.

5. Dissecting Popular Roman Comparisons

• The Fall of the Republic vs. Empire ([19:02]):

  • Beard distinguishes these events—hundreds of years apart, with different causes and consequences.
  • The fall of the Republic was the demise of (limited) popular power; the fall of the Empire is a diffuse, gradual process, not a singular catastrophe.

• The Flawed Morality of Gibbon ([22:37]):

  • Edward Gibbon’s Decline and Fall popularized the narrative that moral decay led to Rome’s end, but oversimplifies complex historical processes.

• Conservative vs. Radical Uses of Rome ([24:22]):

  • While conservatives have traditionally used Rome to warn against decadence, radicals (especially in the 18th–19th centuries) identified with the Republic as inspiration for revolution and democracy.
  • “Rome is one of those shifting, reinventable and fluid symbols that most bits of politics, most sides of politics sometime work with.” —Mary Beard (24:22)

6. How Rome and America Differ

• Data, Maps, and Government Capacity ([25:43]):

  • The Romans lacked modern administrative tools; they may not have even had maps or basic statistics.
  • Policy planning as we understand it was foreign to them.
  • “What you have is a vast knowledge deficit, a strategic knowledge deficit in Rome, which makes it completely different from us.” —Mary Beard (26:03)

• Economy, Price Edicts, and Performative Power ([29:10]):

  • Economic policy was more symbolic than strategic, as seen in Diocletian’s price controls.
  • Infrastructure such as roads served performative functions—projecting Roman power—beyond practical use for citizens.

7. Migration, Barbarians, & Identity

• Barbarians as a fuzzy concept ([31:09]):
  • “The concept of barbarism is a deeply problematic one. I identify others as barbarians and they probably identify me as the barbarian or whatever their word for it is.” —Mary Beard (31:18)
  • Rome consistently absorbed outsiders; borders were porous, identities fluid, and “barbarians” often became Romanized (example: Vandals in North Africa speaking Latin, using Roman law).
• Maps are misleading—borderlands, not borders, defined the Empire.

8. Trade, Luxury, and Gendered Myths

• Myth of Rome squandered its wealth on luxury goods ([34:34]):
  • Anxiety over gold/silver flowing east for silks and perfumes was partly real, but often gendered and morally charged.
  • The real story: China and India needed silver for their economies; Europeans and Romans simply supplied it in exchange for desirable goods.
  • “[Trade] is not Roman or 1600s European self indulgence. It is China’s desperate need for more silver to create a currency base … and all they're asking in return are these rocks of which they don't produce nearly enough.” —David Frum (37:34)
  • Spain’s mining economy (center of Roman silver production) left global pollution traces detectable in Arctic ice.

9. Disease, Climate, and the Decline

• Plagues and climatic shocks ([41:06]):
  • Recent scholarship (e.g., Kyle Harper) places pandemic and environmental volatility into the narrative of decline—but Beard warns against single-cause explanations.
  • “It’s more complicated than either lead in the water pipes, which is what we used to be told, immigration, Christianity, or climate change.” —Mary Beard (42:28)

10. The Fall—Decline, Transformation, or Rebirth?

• Was the fall of Rome bad? ([43:01]):
  • While the immediate aftermath brought violence and collapse (loss of technology, organization), fragmentation ultimately produced a Europe of competing states—key for later military and intellectual dynamism.
  • “There is a kind of sense we use great all the time … So I think you've always got to be on the lookout for the way you have been brought up sort of deep down to think about that.” —Mary Beard (43:56)
  • Some “declines” may actually have been choices—a refusal to continue Roman traditions rather than the loss of capacity.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On learning from history:
  • “History never repeats itself. It only appears to do so to those who don't pay attention to the details.” —Prof. Roberto Lopez (quoted by Frum) (48:38)
  • “We've got to be able to learn from history because we haven't got anything else to learn from.” —Antonio Muñoz Molina (quoted by Beard) (49:06)
• On the persistence of Rome:
  • “The Romans are news that stays news.” —David Frum (50:09)
  • “We're still living under the star sign of Julius Caesar and Augustus.” —Mary Beard (50:13)
• On analogies and Trump:
  • “The question I'm most asked by anybody is which Roman emperor is Donald Trump most like? ... Actually, it's not going to get you anywhere asking that question.” —Mary Beard (51:17)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Frum’s Opening Thoughts: 00:11–14:03
• Introduction to Mary Beard & Interview Begins: 15:33
• The Allure and Misuse of Roman Analogies: 16:01–18:52
• Republic vs. Empire – The Real Fall Explained: 19:02–23:28
• Analogies Across the Political Spectrum: 24:22–25:37
• Roman Administration and Knowledge Gaps: 25:43–29:10
• Barbarians and Roman Identity: 31:09–34:34
• Trade Flows, Luxury Goods & Gendered Myths: 34:34–40:19
• Plagues, Climate Change and the Decline Debate: 41:06–42:28
• Was the Fall of Rome a Bad Thing?: 43:01–47:05
• Learning from History & The Persistence of Roman Influence: 48:38–51:42

Takeaways

• Analogies between Rome and America are attractive but often misleading; historical context matters deeply.
• Fascism as an analytic category has real relevance today, but it is frequently misunderstood or trivialized in public discourse.
• Rome’s decline was multidimensional: administrative weaknesses, economic mythology, environmental shocks, and simple historical contingency all played parts.
• The legacy of Rome is profound and shape-shifting—its memory is used for conservative, radical, nostalgic, and critical purposes in Western culture.
• The study of Rome matters not because history repeats, but because it provides the only meaningful store of human experience to learn from.

For listeners and non-listeners alike: this episode is a wide-ranging, astute, and often amusing look at how we use the past to interpret the present, and how careful we must be not to let seductive analogies lead us astray.