The David Frum Show

Episode: Why Assassinations Shaped the 1960s and Haunt Us Again
Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: Jeffrey Kabaservis (Historian, Niskanen Center)
Date: September 24, 2025

Overview

This episode examines the legacy of assassinations and political violence in the 1960s and 1970s and draws parallels to the turmoil and polarization of American political life in 2025. David Frum is joined by historian Jeffrey Kabaservis to discuss the deep emotional, psychological, and structural impacts of violence on democracy, and how the United States has previously navigated—and sometimes failed—moments of upheaval. With the recent assassination of Republican activist Charlie Kirk as a catalyst for the conversation, the episode interrogates the shifting nature of political violence, leadership, technology, and public reaction across decades.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Psychological Mood in a Time of Crisis

• Frum opens with a reflection on the importance of not succumbing to despair during democratic crises, especially in the face of authoritarian trends under Trump’s second term.
  • "Hopelessness is a resource for the tyrannical... As long as we retain our capacity to feel shock at what is being done, there is some hope." (08:07, David Frum)
• Frum critiques Trump’s economic policies, arguing that, by “plundering the state and impoverishing the people before he consolidated power,” Trump has jeopardized his own position, possibly foreshadowing a reversal in Congress.
  • Compares Trump’s sequence of abuse of power to that of Orban and Putin, emphasizing Trump’s greater recklessness in his second term.

2. Historical Context: The 1960s & 1970s

• Kabaservis sets the table by recalling the intense, localized violence of the early Civil Rights era, expanding through urban riots and bombings in the late ‘60s. Assassinations of MLK, Bobby Kennedy, and attempts on George Wallace marked a point of profound societal disorder.
  • "The 1960s has always fascinated me because the difference between what American society looked like at the beginning and what it looked like at the end were so radically different." (12:49, Jeffrey Kabaservis)
• Frum highlights how, in the 1960s, there was a prevailing sense of hope and progress, even amidst tragedy—a marked contrast to today’s cynicism and recurring cycles of radicalization.

3. Comparisons to the Present

• Both speakers note that while today's U.S. seems perpetually agitated, the scale and type of violence differs.
• Discussion centers on whether political violence skews left or right. Frum and Kabaservis stress the complexity and often idiosyncratic motivations of assassins, many driven as much by a sense of powerlessness as by ideological fervor.
  • "No political persuasion has a monopoly on political violence... political assassins are by their definition, unusual figures throughout history." (20:42, David Frum)
• Social media is cited as an accelerant for outrage and division, both by amplifying distant conflicts and by allowing bad actors (foreign and domestic, human and algorithmic) to manipulate public perception.
  • "We're in a kind of race where the way the technologies for getting people agitated are spreading faster and faster and wider and wider." (22:07, Jeffrey Kabaservis)

4. Cultural Reflections: Art, Media, and Powerlessness

• Reviewing cinema from the 1970s (e.g., "Death Wish," "Three Days of the Condor"), the hosts tie public appetite for dark narratives to a general mood of official corruption, decay, and powerlessness—conditions they see echoes of today.

5. The Role and Failure of Leadership

• Frum asserts that leaders once valorized unity, even through polarization (e.g., Nixon’s campaign for “law and order, but also justice”), whereas Trump-era leadership weaponizes division.
  • “The difference is, the Trump administration seems to see ill feeling as a resource, something they can use... it’s the president and vice president who want Americans angry at each other for their own power. That’s different from the ‘60s and ‘70s.” (27:12, David Frum)
• Kabaservis laments the absence of figures like Bobby Kennedy or John Lindsay who, even in crisis, could speak authentically to the better angels of society.
  • Memorable moment: Praise for RFK’s improvised speech on MLK’s assassination, referencing Aeschylus and striving for unity (34:29–36:32).

6. Recurrence of Cancel Culture and Illiberalism

• Frum and Kabaservis outline how both left and right deploy forms of cancel culture, using institutional power to punish opponents. What’s lacking today, in contrast to the past, is a cadre of public leaders modeling the demands of liberal democracy.
  • “Liberal democracy is a very demanding creed... We're fundamentally tribal creatures... and that means many who profess a belief in liberal democracy just don’t uphold the creed or live up to it.” (33:10, David Frum)

7. Assassinations' Impact: The Cases of Charlie Kirk and Malcolm X

• The assassination of Charlie Kirk is paralleled with Malcolm X—as controversial, polarizing figures now being recast posthumously, their complexity domesticated in collective memory.
  • "The figure from that period [Malcolm X] he reminds me more of... Is not an uncomplicated character... there's some people at the state level who try, some people in positions of responsibility who try." (38:09, Jeffrey Kabaservis)
  • “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.” (39:35, David Frum)
• Both hosts urge charity and empathy, suggesting that the test of a pluralistic society is how we react to the murder of adversaries as much as to allies.

8. How Political Chaos Winds Down: Lessons from the Past

• Kabaservis notes that violence of the ‘60s ebbed as the draft ended, Vietnam wound down, and leaders (Ford, Carter) presented less polarizing alternatives.
• Frum: "People who spend most of their time looking backwards are very poor guides to what's going to happen, moving forwards." (43:05)
• They discuss whether similar “pressure release” mechanisms exist today; technological disruption and economic dislocation complicate such comparisons.

9. Institutional Norms and Long-Term Damage

• The erosion of traditions like FBI director independence and the escalating tit-for-tat politicization of law enforcement are cited as trends likely to outlast the Trump era, changing "the rules not just for his party, but for both parties." (44:55)

10. Hope vs. Optimism

• Frum closes with cautious hope: while America is prone to rely on luck and “providence,” and may be at risk of its luck running out, pragmatic impulses have historically steered society away from the abyss.
  • "I have hope, but I'm not optimistic..." (47:33, David Frum)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hope in the Face of Tyranny

  • "Hopelessness is a resource for the tyrannical. As long as we retain our capacity to feel shock at what is being done, there is some hope.” (08:07, David Frum)

• On Political Violence

  • "No political persuasion has a monopoly on political violence... political assassins are by their definition, unusual figures throughout history." (20:42, David Frum)

• On Technology and Agitation

  • "We're in a kind of race where the way the technologies for getting people agitated are spreading faster and faster and wider and wider." (22:07, Jeffrey Kabaservis)

• On Leadership and Division

  • "The Trump administration seems to see ill feeling as a resource... It's the president of the United States and the vice president... that's different from the '60s and '70s." (27:12, David Frum)

• On Cancel Culture and Democratic Ideals

  • "Liberal democracy is a very demanding creed... many people who profess a belief in liberal democracy just don't uphold the creed or live up to it." (33:10, David Frum)

• On Remembering Leaders Who Spoke to Our Better Angels

  • "The central text is the speech that Bobby Kennedy improvised in April '68 in Indianapolis... 'We have to ask ourselves, what kind of country do we want to be?'" (34:29, Jeffrey Kabaservis)

• On Empathy for the Assassinated

  • "We all want to be treated as our humanity entitles us to be treated, not as our faults call for..." (41:05, Jeffrey Kabaservis)

• On American Pragmatism and Decline

  • "People hate being in a society that feels like it's in decline and... as Charles Krauthammer put it, decline is a choice, which means getting out of decline is also a choice." (47:33, David Frum)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Frum’s Monologue on Democratic Crisis: 00:00–09:13
• Historical Violence and 1960s/70s Assassinations: 11:24–14:20
• Contrast: Hope then vs Radicalization and Cynicism now: 14:20–15:56
• Discussion on Political Violence and Motivation: 18:28–23:24
• Role of Media, Technology, and Outrage: 22:07–25:53
• Movies, Mainstreaming of Conspiratorial Thinking: 24:37–27:12
• Leadership—Nixon, Trump, and Division as Political Weapon: 27:12–29:51
• Cancel Culture & Loss of Democratic Norms: 31:43–34:29
• Remembering RFK and John Lindsay Leadership: 34:29–38:09
• Charlie Kirk, Malcolm X, & Martyrdom Memory: 38:09–41:05
• Empathy in the Face of Violence: 41:05–42:10
• How Violent Eras Ended and What the Future Holds: 42:10–47:33
• Hope, Pragmatism, and the Narrow Corridor: 47:33–50:11

Conclusion

The episode ends with a sense of measured, realistic hope: the present may lack the scale of violence seen during the “spasms” of the late ‘60s, but the erosion of empathetic and unifying leadership, combined with new technology and economic pressure, makes the future uncertain. However, Frum and Kabaservis maintain that the revival of democratic norms and the cultivation of charity and empathy—especially toward ideological adversaries—remain imperative if America is to pull back from the brink.

For further reflection:

• The episode’s final minutes include Frum’s literary coda on Wuthering Heights (50:20–58:59), using the novel as a metaphor for reading history—and the present—with both passion and suspicion, emphasizing the complexity and ambiguity of narrative, leadership, and national memory.