The David Frum Show – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Why Has Comedy Become So Right-Wing?
Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: Helen Lewis (The Atlantic, author of Difficult Women and The Genius Myth)
Date: December 24, 2025

Overview

This episode examines the evolving relationship between comedy and politics, with a specific focus on the recent shift of comedy’s cultural center toward the right. David Frum and Helen Lewis discuss the international comedy scene, the rise of anti-woke comedians, the impact of media platforms like Netflix and podcasts, generational changes in comedic sensibility, the ethics of participating in politically charged environments (like Saudi Arabia), and the broader implications for free expression, political responsibility, and audience complicity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Comedy Amidst Societal Transformation – The Case of Saudi Arabia (13:14–18:00)

• Helen Lewis shares her experiences at the Riyadh Comedy Festival, highlighting the rapid social modernization of Saudi Arabia:

  "This is a country that is trying to do something, it's trying to speed run modernity." (Helen Lewis, 14:00)

• Discussion of cultural taboos: prohibition of alcohol at the festival, and censorship of jokes about Islam and the royal family, but openness to criticizing Western institutions and religions like Catholicism.
• On gender: Few women performed at the festival, but the gender imbalance mirrors Western scenes:

  "You could say that about American comedy clubs, to be quite honest." (Helen Lewis, 17:34)

2. The Rise of Comedy as Mass Entertainment & Cultural Shift (18:00–19:33)

• Frum observes the move from comedy as niche to mass spectacle—seeing comedians fill arenas, a sign of stand-up's newfound mainstream status.
• The “Netflix is a Joke” model is reshaping comedy’s economics, with streaming eclipsing DVD sales and making live performance a primary income source (Helen Lewis).
• The growth of alternative, anti-woke comedy, especially the scene around Joe Rogan in Austin.

3. Comedy’s Political Reorientation: From Counterculture to the Right (19:33–23:27)

• Frum and Lewis trace comedy's shift from mocking the conservative establishment to challenging the "censorious" progressive mainstream.
• Lewis provides case studies like Shane Gillis, who rebounded from cancellation to major podcast and Netflix success:

  "He describes that arc…where actually the mainstream became the kind of bit that young people maybe felt was preachy, became the left." (Helen Lewis, 21:20)

• Acknowledgment that fame, age, and wealth may influence some comedians’ increasingly reactionary stances.

4. Is Comedy Always About Nonconformity? (23:27–25:40)

• Frum questions the narrative that comedians are always anti-authority, highlighting generational divides:

  "There seemed to be sort of a mood... of being contemptuous and disdainful." (David Frum, 25:06)

• The discussion acknowledges genuine reasons for young people's protests today, alongside a tendency for older comedians to become more reactionary.

5. The Censorious Left & "Cancel Culture" (25:40–28:11)

• Lewis distinguishes between creative enrichment and perceived creative censorship:

  "There was a movement where lots of artists found that their creative freedom was being impinged upon." (Helen Lewis, 26:52)

• Many now-successful comedians (Dave Chappelle, Kevin Hart, Louis CK, Aziz Ansari) found refuge in alternative venues and platforms after controversies and cancellations in the mainstream.

6. Audience Complicity & the Feedback Loop (28:11–31:32)

• Frum and Lewis explore how comedians, seeking applause, may unconsciously align with their audience’s biases:

  "We tend to feel more warmly toward people who applaud us than to people who don't. And…become more like the people who are applauding us." (David Frum, 28:11)

• The “Galileo complex”—some comics equate rejection by the establishment with being persecuted geniuses, leading to alignment with fringe views and conspiracies.

7. COVID, Conspiracy, and the Path to Extremism (31:32–33:35)

• Podcasting and YouTube fostered echo chambers during COVID.

  "If people are telling you not to do something, that that itself is a reason to do it." (Helen Lewis, 28:54)

• The valorization of "just asking questions" and the slide from anti-wokeness to anti-vaxx and even outright hate.

8. New Generation, New Trends (33:35–34:37)

• The next wave of under-40 comedians (Vittorio Angeloni, Gianmarco Soresi) are neither woke nor anti-woke—they’re pragmatic, audience-savvy, and focused on adaptation to video, authenticity, and relatability.
• Lewis selects “complicity” as her theme—connecting the moral dimension of laughter, societal participation, and even accepting payment from regimes like Saudi Arabia.

9. The Moral Double Game & Responsibility (35:58–46:50)

• Frum: Comedy is inherently political because, as spoken word, it wields social and moral influence.
• Critique of the "just joking" defense used by podcast-political figures (Joe Rogan, Candace Owens):

  "None of the rules I'm applying to others apply to me." (David Frum, 37:05)

• Lewis denounces the “wounded baby bird” routine:

  "They will still act like they're just like, in their little shed, like they're a kind of mom and pop store...I find that so despicable as well." (Helen Lewis, 39:46)

• The rise of influencer journalism, where access is bought by acquiescence rather than hard questions—a shift magnified by audience indifference to accountability.

10. Audience Agency & Media Literacy (46:50–49:19)

• Lewis advocates for balanced consumption:

  "I always try and consume both content and the opposition to that content. I think that's quite a good habit." (Helen Lewis, 46:06)

• Audience responsibility is foregrounded—don’t just demand stronger contrarianism; seek sources that are informed, careful, and in good faith.

11. The Return to Fundamental Debate (47:40–49:19)

• Questions once thought long-settled—about vaccines, antisemitism, Nazism—must be relitigated in the face of anti-establishment platforms.
• Lewis:

  "The gatekeeping is over, is broken, and who has the most compelling story…is going to win. So people who believe in the things that I believe have got to get into that arena." (Helen Lewis, 48:38)

12. Hope for Good-Faith Dialogue & Reclaiming Real Life (49:19–50:35)

• The most viral content: good-faith, engaged debates between different viewpoints (Jordan Peterson/Helen Lewis interview: 70M+ views).
• Frum and Lewis call for a “rediscovery of old truths” and a return to thoughtful, real-life experiences over performative internet engagement:

  “…have friends who you're actually friends with... where you do activities with them. Not everything is making somebody a profit." (Helen Lewis, 50:20)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Modern Saudi Arabia:
  "It's trying to speed run modernity." (Helen Lewis, 14:00)

• On shifting comedy cultures:
  "Comedy in the podcasting circuit that spun off comedy...not that different to what you might see in Austin or Los Angeles." (Helen Lewis, 17:34)

• On cancel culture and resurgence:
  "So he [Shane Gillis] describes that arc... where actually the mainstream became the kind of bit that young people maybe felt was preachy, became the left." (Helen Lewis, 21:20)

• On complicity and laughter:
  "When you laugh at something, you're complicit with it." (Helen Lewis, 33:00)

• On the 'just joking' dodge:
  "None of the rules I'm applying to others apply to me." (David Frum, 37:05)

• On influencer journalism:
  "...They have to reflect on... what have our [journalists'] failures led us to this moment?" (Helen Lewis, 44:05)

• On confronting bad faith:
  "The gatekeeping is over, is broken... So people who believe in the things that I believe have got to get into that arena." (Helen Lewis, 48:38)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Riyadh Comedy Festival and social change in Saudi Arabia: 13:14–18:00
• Rise of arena comedy, Netflix, live performance: 18:00–19:33
• From left to right: Comedy’s cultural realignment: 19:33–23:27
• Conformity vs. nonconformity in comedy: 23:27–25:40
• On cancel culture and the alternative comedy ecosystem: 25:40–28:11
• Comedian-audience feedback loops, polarization: 28:11–31:32
• COVID, conspiracy, and anti-establishment comedy: 31:32–33:35
• Under 40 comics & shifting norms: 33:35–34:37
• Comedy’s moral responsibilities: 35:58–46:50
• Audience responsibility and media literacy: 46:50–49:19
• A call for good-faith engagement and real life: 49:19–50:35

Tone & Language

The tone throughout is conversational yet incisive, blending Helen Lewis' dry wit and Frum's reflective skepticism. Both speakers combine anecdotes, sociological analysis, and media criticism. There is a recurring theme of self-reflection and humility about personal limitations, particularly from Frum.

Conclusion

This episode uses comedy as a lens to explore deeper questions of culture, politics, and social responsibility. It traces comedy’s surprising alignment with right-wing, anti-establishment sentiments in recent years; the commodification and politicization of humor; and the critical role of audiences in both abetting and contesting these shifts. Above all, Frum and Lewis stress the value of good faith, intellectual curiosity, and authentic personal connection as antidotes to performative outrage and cynicism—both in comedy and in public life.