The David Frum Show – "Why Trump Sides With Putin"

Podcast by: The Atlantic
Episode Date: January 21, 2026
Host: David Frum
Guest: Fiona Hill, Russia/Eurasia expert, former National Security Council official

Overview

This episode delves into Donald Trump's continuing affinity for Vladimir Putin and Russia, exploring what motivates Trump’s policy toward Russia, what Russia gains from the relationship, and the repercussions for American democracy and global security. The conversation features Fiona Hill, renowned for her expertise on Russia and her testimony during Trump’s first impeachment. Their analysis covers the current international situation, Trump’s framework for power, the fate of Ukraine, and why Russia remains at the center of right-wing Western politics.

Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. Trump’s Approach to Power and Truth in America

• Opening Monologue (03:36–08:29): David Frum critiques the Trump administration's repeated falsehoods about the state of the US economy—particularly food prices—as symptomatic of a deeper disdain for facts and accountability.
  • Trump has “systematically” lied about price inflation, especially groceries, ignoring that tariffs and policy choices have made food more expensive (06:30).
  • These lies especially harm middle- and lower-income Americans, eroding trust in government further and deepening political cynicism.
  • Quote:

    “When you put food prices up, not everybody pays equally. ... But the people who are in the middle or in the lower part of the income distribution, they feel it most. ... They know ... the President is lying to them again and again and again. And that has an impact on their faith in him, personally and directly.” (07:40 – 08:10)

2. Putin’s Perspective: The World as a Battlefield for Strongmen

• Shifting Global Landscape (10:32–18:17): David Frum invites Fiona Hill to analyze how the world appears from Putin’s perspective—highlighting recent setbacks in Iran and Venezuela, but stressing that Trump’s presidency is still a net strategic win for Putin.
  • Putin's worldview—“might makes right” and transactional relationships among the world's “big men.”
  • Despite costly blunders in Ukraine (“catastrophic blunder... supposed to be a special military operation”—15:21), Putin’s focus is survival, outlasting adversaries, and waiting for the world to tire, leveraging international uncertainty to Russia’s advantage.
  • Quote:

    “[Putin] wants a world in which might makes right, in which it's a battle for basically spheres of influence by strongmen. And on the surface, that seems to be where we are.” – Fiona Hill (11:47)

Memorable Analogy

• Shrek Reference:

  “I think of Prince Farquaad in Shrek. ‘Some of you may die, but that is a price that I am willing to pay.’” – David Frum (17:54) “That's a great analogy. Also a very small leader. Exactly. Probably about the size of Vladimir Putin.” – Fiona Hill (18:01)

3. Trump’s Policy, Autocratic Envy, and the “Strongman” Complex

• Trump sees both Putin and power itself through a lens of personal validation and transactional “big man” politics (29:47–33:11).
  • Trump, and people like Steve Witkoff around him, view international affairs as the domain of unchecked leaders bartering with each other, ignoring checks and balances or the agency of ordinary people.
  • Quote:

    “If there are no checks and balances and you have unfettered power, then that is kind of the epitome of might, and might makes right— as Trump himself has said over and over again.” – Fiona Hill (29:53)

  • Trump’s admiration for Putin is less about ideology or compromise and more about seeking validation and “petty vanity.”
    • “They see what they want to see, which is their own validation in Vladimir Putin. And Vladimir Putin sees that, and he just gives them what they want.” – Fiona Hill (31:57)
    • Trump’s obsession with recognition comes up repeatedly: “He was also making himself incredibly obvious. ... with someone else's Nobel Prize in his greedy little hands, with a smile on his face, as if the stolen cup of apple juice tastes just as good as the cup of apple juice that was intended for you.” – David Frum (34:09)

4. Why Trump Is Blind to Russia’s Weakness

• Outdated Perceptions (36:23–37:34):
  • Trump remains locked in a Cold War framework, wrongly believing Russia is a superpower based on “size” and symbolic importance.
    • “It does [look that way] to Trump because he doesn’t really listen to the assessments of you, me or anyone else on this score. For him, it’s the size of the country…” – Fiona Hill (36:54)
  • Trump’s hostility toward Ukraine and Zelensky is partly personal—a mix of grudge, envy (for Zelensky’s global acclaim), and wounded vanity.
    • “I think he's envious in some respects about Zelenskyy... being a real wartime president... given the wartime mantle of a Winston Churchill, and Trump hates that.” – Fiona Hill (38:03)

5. Trump’s Complex Motives and Unexpected Restraints

• Hill complicates the caricature of Trump as a pure villain (40:00–43:41):
  • “He genuinely wants to see an end to the risk of nuclear war... He does actually want to make the world a safer place from a nuclear perspective. And I feel that’s the tragedy because... if he’d been more disciplined and more focused...”
  • Trump relishes breaking patterns but lacks the discipline to make lasting changes, often declaring peace prematurely and prioritizing credit over results.
    • Quote:

      “... He does obviously see all of the problems that we're facing... He's just not somebody who—beyond real estate—he's actually really building something. ...His tendency is towards dividing everyone and conquering them, again, like Putin...” – Fiona Hill (42:05)

6. What Outlasts Trump? Russian Influence and the Future of the Right

• Trump’s affinity for Russia may endure on the American and European right due to technological amplification and overlapping interests (44:12–46:59).
  • These are “fellow travelers,” not direct Russian agents, but their ideas align and propagate through new technologies and media echo chambers.
    • Quote:

      “We've moved around to the views of the right are now in parallel with the views of Russia and of other, ... states. ... It just makes easy—they become fellow travelers and sometimes...get on the same bus.” – Fiona Hill (45:31)

7. Could Putinism Collapse?

• No autocracy is ever as stable as it appears (48:32–50:31).
  • Russian regime (like the Tsarist and Soviet states before) could collapse unpredictably due to health, economic setbacks, or political shocks—the system's brittleness remains ever-present.
    • “We don’t know what could trigger things off. There is a great deal of uncertainty here in this current geopolitical climate, as you’ve already laid out.” – Fiona Hill (49:13)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Destroying trust is the currency of autocrats.”
  – Ann Applebaum (00:32, repeated in bumper ads)

• “You never know who you might turn out to be or when I might need something from you.”
  – Fiona Hill, recounting Putin’s philosophy (32:10)

• “It is cringy. I felt like that many, many times when I was in [Trump's] presence with world leaders, I would cringe because he was also making himself incredibly obvious. And that's what Putin is.”
  – Fiona Hill (34:43)

• On patterns of political seduction:

  “It’s like the opening scene of The Godfather. One day, and that day may never come, I will ask a service of you in return.” – Frum, with Hill’s agreement (33:11)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Economic Lies: 03:36–08:29
• Putin’s Global Map & Mindset: 10:32–18:17
• Ukraine and Survivalism: 14:40–18:17
• Proxy Wars, Venezuela & Iran: 18:13–21:45
• Trump’s Admiration of Power: 29:47–33:11
• Trump’s Perceptions & Vanity: 33:12–38:53
• Russian Influence on US/Europe Right: 44:12–47:43
• Collapse of Putinism: 48:32–50:31

Epilogue: Book of the Week – Among the Believers by VS Naipaul (50:44–end)

• Frum reviews Naipaul’s travelogue about the aftermath of the Iranian Revolution, drawing connections between the desire for Western technology and persistent autocracy—paralleling today's discussion about the contradictions within authoritarian regimes.
• Quote from Naipaul:

  “The confusion of a people of high medieval culture awakening to oil and money, a sense of power and violation…”

• Frum highlights Iran’s failure to convert its resources and ambition into a modern, effective state, echoing the broader theme that the instrumentalities of power are not the same as embracing the values of democracy and modernization.

Closing Thoughts

The episode offers a sobering look at the intersection of leadership style, the fragility of democratic trust, and the enduring allure of authoritarian “strongman” tactics. Both Trump’s and Putin’s power politics rest less on genuine achievement and more on spectacle, manipulation, and the pursuit of validation—often at the expense of their own countries and supporters.

(Summary last updated: Jan 21, 2026)