The David Frum Show

Episode: Why Trump’s Foreign Policy Is Such a Clown Show

Date: January 7, 2026
Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: David Rothkopf (Broadcaster, journalist, author, NSC historian)

Episode Overview

In this episode, David Frum explores the chaos and underlying dysfunction in America’s foreign policy under President Donald Trump, focusing especially on the recent U.S. military intervention in Venezuela. The discussion, featuring historian and NSC expert David Rothkopf, breaks down how the Trump administration’s disregard for expert process, policy coordination, and strategy has led to unpredictable, sometimes dangerous foreign actions—what Frum dubs “a clown show.” The conversation offers historical context on the National Security Council (NSC), critiques the absence of meaningful advisory structures, and analyzes the real-world consequences for U.S. interests, alliances, and global leadership.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Venezuela Operation: Motivation and Muddle

• Frum’s Opening Thoughts ([00:39–09:26]):

  • The U.S. conducted a murky military operation in Venezuela, capturing dictator Nicolás Maduro and bringing him to New York for trial.
  • The operation’s rationale is unclear: justice, drugs, immigration, democracy, or oil. The messaging is contradictory, hinting at chaos inside the administration.
  • Frum argues Trump’s thinking is rooted not in “business acumen,” as often claimed, but in a simplistic, almost Marxist vision: “wealth is seized, not created.” Trump seems to view capitalism as robbery, fueling his belief that America should simply “take Venezuela’s oil.”
    • Quote (Frum, 04:11):
      “Donald Trump does not think like a businessman. Donald Trump thinks like a Marxist. Donald Trump thinks that wealth is something that exists, that is the product of exploitation, and that it can easily be seized and redistributed by one person to another. And this is a false way of thinking, in my opinion, but it’s especially false when applied to natural resources and to oil.”
  • Frum details the enormous investment and infrastructure required to extract and profit from Venezuelan oil, dismissing Trump’s fantasy of a quick, lucrative looting.

• Complexity of Oil and Debt:

  • The oil sector is in disrepair; even if controlled, oil profits would first go to settling Venezuela’s enormous sovereign debts, including to China.
  • “Is the United States… planning to default on all of those debts?” Frum asks ([06:19]).
  • The risk: America will spend billions for little gain, damaging its standing and achieving nothing.

2. The Breakdown of Process: A Hollowed-Out NSC

• Introduction of David Rothkopf ([10:08–12:34]):

  • Frum touts Rothkopf’s credentials as the definitive historian of the NSC.

• Role and Erosion of the NSC ([12:34–14:18]):

  • The NSC’s traditional role: policy development/coordination and overseeing implementation.
  • Under Trump, expert input and cross-agency vetting are ignored. The Council has shrunk from hundreds of professionals to a vestigial “appendix” of 30–40 people.
    • Quote (Rothkopf, 13:49):
      “The NSC… is kind of like the appendix. It’s a vestigial organ that is primarily there because it existed in prior administration.”

• Why a Policy Process Matters ([14:18–18:00]):

  • Frum presses: not only is it suspicious that the government can’t articulate its purpose in Venezuela, it’s dangerous.
  • Rothkopf: A robust process highlights legal, political, and practical obstacles—none of which Trump’s team bothers to consider. Factions in Venezuela, risks of resistance, uncertain military, Russian/Iranian response—all ignored.
    • Quote (Rothkopf, 14:52):
      “In a good advisory process, you’re going to have people telling you things that may be salient, right? Like, it would be illegal to arrest Maduro. It would be illegal to invade Venezuela. It would be illegal to seize the oil assets... Every single one of these things has manifested itself as a potential problem for what comes next in this operation.”

• No Plan for Aftermath or Consequences:

  • What if Maduro is acquitted in U.S. court? What if oil companies won’t invest, fearing future Venezuelan governments will seize assets back ([18:00–20:08])?
  • The administration appears to operate with a reckless, improvisational approach: act first, sort out (or ignore) consequences later.

3. Historical Comparison: The NSC in Previous Administrations

• Kissinger, Scowcroft, and ‘Honest Broker’ Model ([21:06–24:53]):

  • Frum and Rothkopf compare Trump’s hollowed-out NSC to periods where the council was too centralized (Kissinger era) or absent.

  • Kissinger, despite his consolidation of power, at least brought ideas and coordination; Trump has little but unfiltered impulse.

    • Quote (Rothkopf, 23:02):
      “Scowcroft… was seen as the model for doing it right precisely because he had lived through the period when it was being done wrong.”

  • Now, Secretary of State Rubio nominally does both jobs, but in functionality, no one is coordinating overall strategy.

    • Quote (Rothkopf, 24:53):
      “Rubio’s deal is technically as you describe it, except in reality, what’s emerged is this: [others] are running other regions… But Trump doesn’t take anybody’s advice…”

4. Chaos of Conflicting Agendas – And the Global Fallout

• Fragmented and Dangerous Policy ([27:58–30:31]):

  • Competing goals (oil, Cuba policy, drugs, immigration) are pursued by different Trump lieutenants with no coordination.
  • Trump’s “Donroe Doctrine” asserts outright U.S. domination of the hemisphere, reviving an imperialism long since discredited.
    • Quote (Rothkopf, 37:10):
      “The core concept behind this last national security strategy is the idea of viewing the world through… spheres of influence, which is this Putinesque idea… Bully states get to determine what happens near them.”

• Alienating Allies, Empowering Rivals:

  • Trump risks isolating the U.S. by antagonizing Colombia, Mexico, European allies, and even NATO, while ignoring the risk of Latin American countries turning more toward China ([31:55–34:28]).

  • The ‘allies’ section of past security strategy documents—intended to balance means, ends, alliances, and legitimacy—is gone.

    • Quote (Frum, 43:22):
      “There is a way… to actually have a wider view of the world. And if you break that, then all we’re hearing from are the interests of Trump’s donors and who are willing to spend money at Mar-a-Lago.”

5. Dismantling Institutional Memory and Dissent

• Purge of Professionals ([44:40–46:58]):
  • Trump’s war on the “deep state” has driven out career professionals in every agency, replacing them with loyalists opposed to dissent.
    • Quote (Rothkopf, 44:40):
      “We are having essentially… a lobotomy being performed in the United States government at precisely the wrong moment. Because we have a president who is purely an impulse engine with no sense of history and who needs to be constrained by that kind of process which he is eliminating.”

6. The Value of Process—Even a Flawed One

• The Danger of Best-Case-Only Thinking ([46:58–48:56]):
  • Frum draws parallels with the Iraq war: Even with planning, dangers arose because worst-case scenarios weren’t taken seriously.
  • Without any process, the risk multiplies.
    • Quote (Rothkopf, 48:56):
      “No policy process is perfect, but the absence of a policy process is infinitely worse than the presence of even a flawed policy process.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s worldview:

  • Frum (04:11): “Donald Trump does not think like a businessman. Donald Trump thinks like a Marxist…”

• On the NSC’s current state:

  • Rothkopf (13:49): “…It’s kind of like the appendix. It’s a vestigial organ…”

• On policy incoherence:

  • Rothkopf (14:52): “In a good advisory process, you’re going to have people telling you… it would be illegal to arrest Maduro…”

• On the administration’s improvisation:

  • Rothkopf (24:53): “They are just riffing, making stuff up, and mostly kind of cleaning up on… Trump. Trump will say something, and these people then have to scramble behind him to clean up the mess.”

• On the collapse of institutional wisdom:

  • Rothkopf (44:40): “We are having essentially… a lobotomy being performed in the United States government at precisely the wrong moment.”

• On the consequences of impulsive foreign policy:

  • Frum (48:56): “No policy process is perfect, but the absence of a policy process is infinitely worse…”

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------| | 00:39–09:26 | Frum’s analysis of Trump’s thinking on Venezuela, oil, and foreign policy | | 10:08–14:18 | Rothkopf: History and purpose of NSC; what’s been lost under Trump | | 14:18–18:00 | How lack of process leads to confusion and real-world danger | | 21:06–24:53 | NSC in the Kissinger era vs. today; the role of honest brokers | | 27:58–30:31 | The chaos of competing Trump administration agendas in Venezuela and region | | 31:55–34:28 | Dangers of alienating allies and pushing regions toward China | | 43:22–46:58 | How Trump’s donor-driven, personality-centered “process” endangers policy | | 48:56 | The critical need for at least some policy process |

Tone and Language

The episode is sober, incisive, and urgent. Frum and Rothkopf, both seasoned analysts, use direct, sometimes sardonic language to highlight the absurdity and dangers of Trump-era policymaking. Frum frequently brings in historical context and sharp metaphors; Rothkopf mixes deep knowledge with biting observations about competence, process, and the importance of dissent.

Conclusion

This episode is a cautionary exploration of how the breakdown of U.S. foreign policy process under Donald Trump—exemplified in the Venezuela intervention—risks catastrophic consequences not just for American interests, but for global stability. Without coordination, expert input, or contingency planning, policy becomes performative, impulsive, and ultimately self-defeating.

End of Summary