Podcast Summary: The David Frum Show – "Why We Changed Our Minds About Politics"

Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: Mona Charen (The Bulwark)
Date: February 18, 2026

Overview

In this deeply reflective episode, David Frum welcomes Mona Charen—a prominent conservative commentator, author, and "Never Trump" leader—for a candid discussion on political evolution, personal transformation, and the crisis of democratic institutions in America. Both guests share the personal and philosophical journeys that have led them to reassess core beliefs, particularly in light of the Trump era, and explore the difficult choices faced by those committed to democratic norms amid growing polarization.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Erosion of Institutional Independence Under Trump

• DOJ as Political Instrument:

  • Frum analyzes recent attempts by the Trump administration to politicize federal agencies, including the DOJ’s efforts to prosecute members of Congress for instructing the military to follow only lawful orders.
  • Quote:
    • "That idea has just gone up in smoke in the Trump years. This has been the most nakedly political Department of Justice, perhaps since Warren Harding's in the 1920s" (A, 01:19).

• Militarization of Politics:

  • Trump’s unprecedented campaigning at Fort Bragg, appealing directly to active-duty military to support Republican candidates, is highlighted as a dangerous breach of apolitical military tradition.
  • Quote:
    • "Presidents address the military all the time, but they are not supposed to make political speeches, rally speeches, to ask the military to vote a certain way. That's unheard of. That's shocking. It's the prelude to authoritarian rule." (A, 03:45)

• The Federal Reserve’s Resistance:

  • Amid efforts to pressure and even legally intimidate Fed Chair Jerome Powell, resistance spearheaded by Senator Thom Tillis is portrayed as a rare success for institutional resilience.
  • Quote:
    • "That's more than just a defeat. That is institutional counterpoise against the attempt by the president to corrupt institutions." (A, 07:35)

2. Mona Charen’s Political Journey

• Origins in Gratitude and Conservative Thought:

  • Driven by gratitude for America’s freedoms and the historical plight of Jews, Charen embraced conservatism emphasizing institutionality, stability, anti-totalitarianism, and thinkers like Burke.
  • Quote:
    • "Some people have said the primary emotional response of a conservative is gratitude, whereas the primary emotional response of a liberal is dissatisfaction." (B, 12:00)

• Initial Views on Trump:

  • Charen, like many conservatives, initially dismissed Trump, only to be alarmed as his norm-breaking conduct attracted mass support.
  • Quote:
    • "Even the grotesque... violence against protesters at his rallies, mocking a handicapped reporter, scorning John McCain's heroism, all of those things... obviously didn't [disqualify him]. And I began to worry." (B, 15:02)

• Deeper Realization and Alienation:

  • The personal grief as friends and colleagues embraced Trumpism; seeing the movement change from within.
  • Quote:
    • "I watched these people that I respected, you know, bend the knee... it was an ongoing process. It took years, and during that time... I lost many friends." (B, 20:01)

3. Changing and Enduring Beliefs

• What Changed:

  • Charen now recognizes that racism in America was more persistent and mainstream than she once believed.
  • Quote:
    • "I had underestimated the degree to which the naked racism... did not think persisted to this day. I now think that was wrong, that there is a tremendous amount of it." (B, 23:22)

• What Endures:

  • Strong belief in market economics, free trade, fiscal discipline, and especially the value of legal traditions and American world leadership.
  • Both lament that neither party consistently represents these values today.
  • Quote (on procedure and tradition):
    • "It's the institutions, the procedures, the protections in law that it took hundreds and hundreds of years to enshrine in our system are critical." (B, 26:07)

4. Justice, Accountability, and the Post-Trump Dilemma

• To Prosecute or Move On?:
  • Frum and Charen puzzle over whether the Biden/Garland approach of "tidy up and move on" was naive or necessary, and whether America requires a real reckoning (lustration) post-Trump.
  • Quote:
    • "It's not clear to me you can just dust this off and tidy up and move forward without serious backward looking and accountability." (A, 28:06)
    • "It was done badly because that New York case really was politically motivated and it's the one case that they got. But it allowed the MAGA forces to say, you see both sides abuse the judicial system for political ends." (B, 30:11)

5. The Jewish Experience and American Politics

• Trump, Israel, and Rising Antisemitism:
  • Charen and Frum (both Jewish) discuss the dilemma for American Jews: Trump’s alignment with Israeli policy vs. the emboldening of homegrown far-right antisemitism and erosion of America as a liberal bulwark.
  • Quote:
    • "What Trump is doing to poison the social conversation here at home, to really mainstream people like Nick Fuentes and Tucker Carlson, that is deeply frightening." (B, 33:43)
    • "It's a very, very difficult time for the Jewish people. Honestly, it is... That is over. Our children and grandchildren will not be living in that world. They'll be living in a world where it's come roaring back." (B, 37:05)

6. Regrets, Reflection, and Conversion

• Reassessing the Past:

  • Charen expresses pride in anti-communism and certain early conservative causes but sees current conservatism as unrecognizable.

  • Quote:

    • "Conservatism that I signed up for is completely gone. There's no coherent set of ideas... recognizable." (B, 39:51)

  • Frum voices regret that early priorities (anti-communism, free markets) were not as widely held by others, while dismissed elements (paranoias, bigotries) proved more mainstream.

  • Both stress the value former conservatives bring to the anti-Trump coalition: the ability to underscore Trump’s rupture from past conservatism.

  • Quote:

    • "We're here to tell you that as people who liked all those people, [Trump]'s different. And we can... tell you how and why he's different." (A, 41:04)

• On Returning to Conservatism:

  • Charen: No plausible path back to the GOP or conservative movement for her lifetime. Hopes that refugee conservatives may help prod the Democratic Party in constructive directions.
  • Quote:
    • "Not until this whole generation dies off. And since I'm going to die off before they do. No..." (B, 43:04)

7. Civic Duty and the Voice of Conscience

• Finding Purpose Amid Despair:
  • Charen and Frum reflect on the importance of continuing to speak truth, even when it alienates peers and offers no clear path to political home.
  • Quote:
    • "Orwell's line about... duty of intelligent man to state the obvious, keep saying it... those of us who have been foolish enough to lose all our friends by telling the truth in the past can continue to tell the truth." (B, 45:56)

8. Reflections on Keynes – Change as a Historical Constant

• Frum's Book of the Week:
  • Frum ends by reading from John Maynard Keynes’ essay "My Early Beliefs," drawing a parallel between Keynes’ realization that order and justice both matter for a healthy society, and the journey he and Charen have made from youthful faith in institutions to mature awareness of the need for fairness and inclusivity.
  • Quote:
    • "We were not aware that civilization was a thin and precarious crust, erected by the personality and the will of a very few, and only maintained by rules and conventions skillfully put across and guilefully preserved." (A, 47:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "Some people have said the primary emotional response of a conservative is gratitude, whereas the primary emotional response of a liberal is dissatisfaction, you know, wanting to improve things." (B, 12:00)
• "Watching people... gradually become Trumpy was like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers." (B, 20:01)
• "I had underestimated the degree to which the naked racism that had been part of American history... persists to this day. I now think that was wrong." (B, 23:22)
• "There's no coherent set of ideas that is held by a movement or far less a party now that is recognizable." (B, 39:51)
• "Not until this whole generation dies off. And since I'm going to die off before they do. No, because the party has been... so deeply corrupted." (B, 43:04)
• "Orwell's line about, you know, duty of intelligent man to state the obvious, keep saying it... those of us who have been foolish enough to lose all our friends by telling the truth in the past can continue to tell the truth..." (B, 45:56)

Noteworthy Timestamps

• Trump DOJ politicization: (00:11–03:15)
• Discussion of military politicization: (03:15–05:00)
• Federal Reserve resistance: (05:00–09:00)
• Mona Charen's political evolution: (11:07–16:14)
• Never Trump special issue & disappointment: (17:08–19:19)
• Deeper reflections on losing friends to Trumpism: (20:01–22:21)
• On changing beliefs about race: (22:30–24:21)
• Reflections on free trade, markets, and lost political home: (24:21–27:48)
• Justice, accountability, and institutional repair: (27:48–31:04)
• The American Jewish dilemma: (31:04–38:15)
• On regret, legacy, and anti-Trump conservatism’s import: (38:15–42:47)
• No plausible return to GOP for converted conservatives: (43:04–44:11)
• What former conservatives can bring to Democrats: (44:11–45:24)
• On civic duty and telling the truth regardless of consequence: (45:24–46:40)
• Keynes’ reflection on wisdom, order, and fairness: (47:18–End)

Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, unvarnished account of political change at both a personal and national scale. Through honest reflection and historical lens, Frum and Charen model the necessity—and the cost—of re-examining long-held beliefs, defending democratic norms, and embracing the humility required for meaningful political adaptation. Their discussion resonates with anyone concerned about democracy’s future and the individual’s place within it.