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The Audacity to Podcast® - tips and how to start and grow profit in podcasting
443. Parasocial Relationships in Podcasting
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Parasocial Relationships in Podcasting. Thank you for joining me for the Audacity to podcast. I'm Daniel J. Lewis. I have a little bit of a more somber, solemn feeling right now because just about two weeks ago on July 20, 2026, the podcasting world lost a legend. John C. Dvorak, former co host of this Week in Tech, where I first learned about him and also a former author on PC Magazine, and where I knew him best, the co host of no Agenda show with Adam Curry, the guy who created podcasting, John C. Dvorak, died on Monday, July 20, and it's raised all kinds of amazing love and support from the audience and I thought this was worth bringing to you. And I don't have notes or an outline for this. I just felt like that wouldn't be the right thing to do for approaching this kind of subject. This isn't going to be a weeping, moaning episode, but something that I want you to recognize in this is the parasocial relationships that we are inspiring when we podcast. And these are good things, although certainly parasocial relationships can be bad things in some situations where they turn into really more like stalker relationships. But a parasocial relationship is where you build a deep emotional connection with someone. Basically like a one sided relationship with someone whom you do not personally know. And for many of the listeners of the no Agenda show and fans of John C. Dvorak, that's the kind of relationship that they had with John. They never personally met him, they maybe even never interacted with him on social media, but they felt like they knew him because of hearing him episode after episode after episode. No Agenda show, if you haven't listened to it, has been a show that's been going for almost 20 years. Six hours a week of content, two episodes, three hours each. So about six hours of content. And if you can, I urge you just to sample this. If you're not a fan of the show, just sample episode 1888 and 1889 because those were their two memorial episodes that they did for John C. Dvorak, and it took them two episodes to get through the bulk of all of the love and those episodes together. If you listened nonstop at high speed, you'd probably not make it through an entire day listening because there was so much love. Pour it out for this person that didn't know most of the people who loved him so much. And it's an amazing thing to see that beautiful parasocial relationship that was built where so many people heard him for several hours a week. Some people in their notes. And it's okay to laugh sometimes in the context of these things, because we can remember the relationships, remember the fun. And certainly John C. Dvorak's family was able to laugh about some of these things. And in a note that I sent in, in episode 1889, I even caused Mimi Dvorak, his wife, to laugh at something that I mentioned in my note. It's okay to laugh. It's good to laugh. That's part of the healing process for many people. And as we look at these things, we can see these ways that people are being touched by the posts of these podcasts and. And the podcasters themselves may never get to understand the impact that they're having. And I want you to think about this as it applies to you and your relationship with your audience, but also your relationship with the podcasts that you listen to and the podcasters, especially the people behind it, because it's the people we really have the relationships with. I know parasocial relationships can also happen with other celebrities and such, but the thing about other celebrities versus in podcasting is when you look at someone on a TV show, for example, you are looking at a fictional character. You might feel like you have a parasocial relationship with the actor or actress. But do you. Do you really know that actual person? Or are they putting on a performance? They are paid to perform. So even how they are in front of the fans, is that actually how they are for real? They might still be putting on some kind of performance and acting a certain way in front of the fans. The oh my gosh, I'm so happy to see you. Yes. I love you. Thank you so much. That could be part of an act. I'm not saying it is, but it could be. Because these are professional actors in podcasting. I don't think you get that as much, because in podcasting, although there are professional actors and there are people who have learned to project more in podcasting or present a slightly bigger version of themselves for the sake of reaching a larger audience. And that's not being artificial or inauthentic to be a bit bigger than yourself. It's like in public speaking, they talk about, imagine a small box in front of you, about the size of your shoulders, and that box. Most of our hand motions in private conversations tend to be within that box. But if you're on stage in front of a large audience, you're. Your hand motions need to stretch outside that box. You need to be bigger than life. They say, because you're in front of an audience that's not inauthentic. That's just making sure that you are able to make the impression on the much larger audience that you're trying to reach because you're a small person now in front of a big audience. In podcasting, yes, there is some of that, and yes, I do it too. But it's still an authentic communication that comes from most podcasters. While there are the professional presenters, the even actors and actresses out there in the podcasting space, or the newscasters, the people just reading straight from a script, the voice actors and such, most of the podcasters are fueled by the word. That's basically a buzzword in podcasting because we use it so much, but it's so true. Passion. So many people who start podcasts get into podcasting simply because they're passionate about that thing. That's why I started podcasting. When I started my clean comedy podcast, I was really excited about just making people laugh. Although I wouldn't necessarily call it a passion, when I first started, it was something I really wanted to do. Then when I started other topics in different podcasts, including this one, the Audacity to Podcast, it's because I did want to share passions that I had about things. And so many people in podcasting are sharing their passions. They're attracting an audience that also shares in those passions. And along the way, we start to build these parasocial relationships because our audience gets to hear us communicate our passions. They get to hear us communicate how much we love this thing or how much we hate this thing, how passionate we are about our feelings. Some people are more transparent than others in their podcasts. I prefer to not be completely transparent because I try to keep my professional life a bit separate from my personal life. So there are a lot of personal things that I just don't share in the podcast, and some of the personal things that I've shared in the past about, like, going through a divorce and the unwanted stuff that I had to suffer through with that, and. And the struggles that I faced, even much of that, and even just now my saying that sometimes I'm thinking, do I really need to say this? Does my audience really need to know that? But many of these personal touch points are ways that we connect with an audience and help deepen that relationship with them. And that's something that I'm trying to do a little bit more on the Audacity to podcast, not talk about the past darkness that I've been through in my life, but just be a bit more open about certain aspects of my personality, let more things come out. And that's part of the reason that I had decided recently to stop reading a script and go back to how I originally started podcasting. And that is talking off an outline with occasional episodes like this one where I don't have an outline. These kinds of things are bits of authenticity that we share with our audience. And as our audience is listening to us in sometimes places where they won't listen to anyone else because of the nature of podcasts and being able to take a podcast with you and listen whenever and wherever you want. People fall asleep listening to podcasts. People like me, I admit. I listen to podcasts in the shower. I listen to podcasts all the time, as much as I can. I listen to podcasts in the car while I'm working, especially while I'm doing chores around the house or taking care of the yard or different things like that. And these are places where other conversations might not be welcome or might not even be possible or respected. Like imagine if someone was talking to you and your intention was to listen to them while you were falling asleep. That's not all that respectful seeming in a actual in person context, unless there is that understanding that this is what's going to happen. But with a podcast, we consume the media in these different ways that start to because of the way the content is presented, because of how podcasters tend to be more open, and because we consume podcasts in these more intimate contexts, we start to build these parasocial relationships with the podcasters that we listen to. And we feel like I know them. And then sometimes all it takes is one or two little interactions online where the podcaster responds to you and suddenly you feel like, they know me, they've seen me. This is something that I talk about frequently with podgagement, and I talked about it in my previous episode about the effect of bringing your audience into your podcast, involving them with your podcast in whatever way that looks like to you, it's helping them to feel seen and it's deepening that relationship with them. So as podcasters, where we have plenty of parasocial relationships that we don't even realize, keep that in mind as you're presenting your content, as you're sharing things, certainly there's a responsibility to that, where what you recommend and talk about might carry more weight than other things. So you need to be careful with what you recommend, what you advise in certain situations, and what you inspire people to do. Yeah, there's that caution angle, but there's also that beautiful opportunity to Speak truth into other people's lives, to inspire them, to make them laugh even, which can be so, so powerful. When I went through my divorce, the first two years especially, and it was a long, very stretched out process, that's why the podcast went dark for so long and just suddenly went dark with no announcement at all. It's because just stuff blindsided me. Here I was, alone, just me and my son in the house, and I'm taking care of a boy who's about a year old. I'm completely alone, abandoned, and suffering all kinds of pain through this, crying every day, multiple times throughout the day. It was extremely painful time. But podcasts were there, and many of my audience was there for me, too. Maybe you were one of those people. And thank you so much. Many of my audience was there because of the parasocial relationships that they felt they had with me. And so that was what enabled them to contribute love and encouragement and support that I so desperately needed. And I will say unapologetically, I believe God used podcasts to help save my life multiple times in my life. And one of the most powerful things that podcasts did for me during the dark times in my life, not only that time during my divorce, but I've been through other dark times in my life, too. Some of the very powerful things that podcasts have done is they've helped me to laugh, even in the middle of darkness and sorrow and suffering, in some way that the podcast could make me laugh. Maybe not laugh out loud, but kind of laughing internally. They could give me something that lifted my spirit a little bit. So even if you're out there and you're just telling jokes and you're just trying to make people laugh, or you're just talking about a TV show, or you're just talking about technology, or you're just this or just that or just whatever, take out that word, just because you're not just doing that. You are connecting with people, and they may be building parasocial relationships with you, feeling like you know them, you understand them, and you're talking directly to them. You. You are talking directly into their ears. In many cases and in places where other conversations might not happen, like I mentioned earlier, so you're not just talking about TV or just telling jokes. You are connecting with people. And no matter what it is that you're talking about, some people just need that connection. They just need someone to listen to, to help them through the day, to give them something to look forward to. I remember during one of the dark seasons of my life, of a weekly Friday night video gaming with some guys that I knew. They invited me into their little squad to play some different video games on xbo. And one of those guys later went through his own very dark time as well. And I was able to be there for him. And I remember in tears one time, he came to me and just gave me this huge hug and he said, thank you so much for being here for me. I'm sorry I wasn't there for you when you were going through your hardship. And I told him, oh, you were there every Friday night, even though we were just playing video games. You were there for me. You gave me something to look forward to. You gave me someone to talk to. You gave me someone that I could just be silly with sometimes and just laugh at the funny things that might happen in the course of guys playing video games together. You were there for me. I needed that. And you were there for me in a unique way that no one else was there for me like that, but you were. And that helped me. And you can be that to your audience no matter what you're talking about. Don't think that you have to be talking about super serious subjects in order for you to build a meaningful connection with your audience. Don't think that you have to be pouring out your soul and exposing every little flaw of your life and being totally transparent to connect with your audience. You're connecting with your audience simply by being there. Several years ago, I did an episode number 279 about what makes podcasting more intimate than other media. And this is the outline from that episode in that I shared. Number one, being authentic. Number two, speaking directly to individuals. Number three, building relationships. Number four, publishing consistently. Number five, taking content everywhere. Number six, engaging with real people. Number seven, connecting through social media and number eight, focusing on the niches. These are things that make podcasting, I think, more intimate than other media. And certainly with these things that we do episode after episode, regardless of what we're talking about, regardless of the technological details of things, whether we do it in video or audio, or how much editing you do, if you have background music or your loudness levels, or you're an interview show or anything like that, put all of that kind of stuff aside, all of the form and format and technical details, put that all aside. Being there for someone episode after episode builds that kind of parasocial relationship. So what are you going to do with that? Are you going to use that for good? And I hope you do, and I hope you are using that for good and don't think this means you have some massive responsibility on your shoulders to spread a certain message because you have an audience. I'm not saying that just because you have an audience doesn't mean you're obligated to spread a message to them. But it is an opportunity that you can take and listen to your audience. Try to make it not a parasocial relationship. Try what you can do to actually get to know your audience and build that relationship with them. What I say about podgagement, often to people is while there are other tools out there, plenty of tools in your own podcast hosting provider that can measure the breadth of your audience. With podgagement, I try to measure and increase the depth of the relationship with your audience, giving you the tools to engage with them. Like collecting voicemail feedback from them, seeing all the reviews that they write about your podcast so you can get to know what they like about you and the podcast and what they're getting from the podcast. Seeing how you doing the charts to see what's working for your podcast. And because the charts are a measurement of what the audience is liking, it's not just a metric, it's a reflection of what's working, what is engaging with your audience. If you're interested in that, you can check it out at podengagement. Com. But the reason why I rebuilt that tool is because I realized engagement is so much more important than just simply collecting ratings and reviews. It's all about engaging with your audience because of this relationship that you're building with them. So then when your audience takes that time to send you a message, send you a voicemail, send you a piece of value of whatever that value is, whether that's financial value or. I love the way that Adam Curry puts this time, talent and treasure. They could give you their time that is doing something for you. They could give you their talent, making something for you, or they could give you their treasure that is giving something to you of value, like money, whatever that thing is of value that they're giving to you. Accept that, cherish it, but don't let that be the end. Try to get to know them. Try to turn those parasocial relationships into actual relationships, because that the relationships are, I think, what really matter to most of us. I really believe that for many of us, yeah, the numbers are nice to look at. It's cool to see how popular you're getting, how much your podcast is growing. And for anyone trying to monetize their podcast, certainly the dollars do matter, or whatever currency you're Using those are important for that goal. But I think for many of us independent podcasters, what we want most of all, really are the relationships, because it comes back to passion. We're talking about something that we're passionate about, and we're hoping to connect with other people that are passionate about the same thing. So, like with these people in podcasting, we've lost this year, John C. Dvorak last year, Todd Cochran and Charlie Kirk. And I know there are others, too, that maybe mean more to you and more in different spaces within the podcasting industry. But it's okay to mourn the loss of these people. If you've been in their audience because you've built a parasocial relationship with them, that's okay. That doesn't mean you're weird or a stalker or anything like that. And certainly I've mourned the loss of these people, and they've impacted me and touched me in different ways and encouraged or influenced, and I've had different levels of relationships with them. Of those three that I mentioned, really the only person I had an actual relationship with was Todd Cochran, and that was why I wanted to do a whole episode in memory of him that I've done last year after he died. So it is okay to mourn for these people that you didn't really know because they touched your life. Even though you never had that personal relationship with them, they might not have ever known you. Maybe never read a feedback from you or note or mentioned you or anything like that. Maybe they didn't even know you existed. But yet you felt like you knew them because how much they showed up episode after episode there for you, and how much those episodes impacted you in whatever place you're in. Flip that around, that feeling. Think about the favorite podcasters you have. What if one of them died? What would you feel? What if I died? What would you feel? I hope you're not sitting there thinking, oh, I'd feel relief if you died. That aside, I'm sure there are some of those people, and some of them used to love me and now hate me, but I try to move on and not hold grudges and forgive, because that's what the Bible teaches. But whatever those feelings would be that you might feel about the parasocial relationships that you've built with other podcasters, and if you lost those podcasters, now, flip that around you as the podcaster, reaching an audience of people who are maybe being parasocial relationships with you. How can you honor those people? How can you better influence them for Good. How can you better inspire them? How can you better make them laugh, make them improve their days, help them through their days, help them through their dead end jobs, help them to have something to look forward to episode after episode. There was for a while one of the other darker times in my life when I felt like I was in a job that used to be a dream job but then became a living hell due to multiple circumstances I won't go into. Podcasts were there for me and they gave me something to look forward to. I knew on such and such day this podcast was releasing. So I really, I need to make it to this day so I can hear that episode. Because like that video game and example that I gave earlier with my other friend, it gave me something to look forward to. And you might be that for people. You might be the one light in their otherwise dark life. You might be the thing that's helping them get week to week to week. So in some ways we could recognize this as an incredible responsibility. And I'm not saying that your podcast is a life or death situation where people's actual lives depend on your publishing an episode, but it is something to think about that no matter what you're talking about, you could be that person's light for the day or for the week. So these are some of my ramblings really on this thought of the parasocial relationships in podcasting. And I don't have a specific call to action for you of like this is what you should do, this is how you need to change, this is what you need to do with your podcast or what will grow your podcast or anything like that. But I do want this to inspire you to think about some of these things for yourself and how they can inspire your own podcasting process and your engagement process with your own audience. Because there could be the parasocial relationships that they're building with you that you might not even realize. So what are you going to do with that? That's up to you. If you'd like to share some of those things, either from the perspective of a listener or from the perspective of a podcaster, feel free to comment on the notes for this episode@the audacitytopodcast.com parasocial. And now that I've you given, given you some of the guts and taught you some of the tools, it's time for you to go start and grow your own podcast for passion and profit. I'm Daniel J. Lewis from the audacitytopodcast.com thanks for listening.