The Audible-Ready Sales Podcast

Episode Title: Backing Up The Sales Conversation
Host: Rachel Klett Miller (Force Management)
Guest: John Kaplan (Managing Partner and President, Force Management)
Date: March 25, 2019

Episode Overview

This episode centers on a vital "back to basics" topic in B2B sales: what to do when you realize, mid-opportunity, that you haven't fully uncovered the customer’s critical business pains or properly defined requirements. Rachel and John discuss practical strategies for "backing up" in the sales process—revisiting and strengthening the foundation of a buyer conversation without losing momentum or buyer trust. The conversation is especially relevant for sales professionals who, due to excitement or familiarity within an account, may skip crucial discovery steps and need to refocus on what truly drives value for the customer.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recognizing When You've Skipped Essential Steps

• Many sellers move too quickly or lean too heavily on personal relationships, skipping key discovery steps ([01:22]).
• Realizing mid-deal that you lack clarity on the buyer’s Positive Business Outcomes (PBOs), Required Capabilities, and Metrics means you must "back up" and fill in those gaps for a deal to move forward with integrity.

Quote:
"You end up skipping steps...and they want to go back in the middle of one."
— Rachel Klett Miller [01:22]

2. The Concept of “No Business Issue, No Business”

• Without being attached to a significant customer business issue, the deal is likely to stall, be smaller, or lack strong sponsorship ([03:34]).
• Sellers must align with strategic, impactful customer problems—not just technical requirements.

Quote:
"No business issue, no business. If you don't have yourself attached to a big business issue facing a customer, then a lot of bad things are going to happen to you."
— John Kaplan [03:36]

3. The "Ultimate Summation"—A Sales Mantra

• The “Ultimate Summation” is a simple, powerful framework to structure the sales conversation:
  • Open by summarizing what you heard (proves you've listened)
  • Address the business issue, showing you understand their world
  • Capture three takeaways:
    1. Positive Business Outcomes (PBOs)
    2. Required Capabilities
    3. Metrics ([03:34]–[05:55])
  • Only then pivot to describe how your solution is different or better.

Quote:
"The mantra was really 'So what I hear you saying, Mr. and Mrs. Customer…these are the positive business outcomes you're trying to achieve. In order to achieve these, these are the minimum required capabilities and you said you're going to measure it this way.' And then we pivot…"
— John Kaplan [04:16]

4. Focusing Relentlessly on Buyer Value

• Sellers sometimes worry about “going back” and reopening discovery, but if you’re transparent and focused on delivering value, buyers appreciate it ([05:55]).
• Anchoring the conversation in their interests is never a negative.

Quote:
"If you show them value, they're not going to protest. Right? If you're transparent about delivering value...they're not going to be upset about it."
— Rachel Klett Miller [05:55]

5. Moving Conversations Up to True Business Outcomes

• Elite sellers connect technical discussions to larger business objectives (e.g., not just upgrading a customer portal but enabling a better customer experience, increased retention, or new revenue) ([06:21]–[07:53]).
• This approach differentiates strong sellers and ensures the deal is tied to what the buyer—and their executives—care about.

Quote:
"Every company…is trying to improve a customer experience. Now more than ever, it's so appropriate to attach yourself to higher business issues."
— John Kaplan [06:34]

6. Driving Alignment Internally and Externally

• The same principle applies inside your own organization: sales initiatives must be tied to company-wide, high-level business issues to drive adoption ([07:53]).
• Top sellers inspire belief in internal teams and customer contacts alike that what they do matters.

Quote:
"The most elite sellers...also have the ability to get those customers...to remember and believe what they do for a living matters."
— John Kaplan [09:14]

7. Non-Linear Selling and “Bucket Filling”

• Gathering PBOs, Capabilities, and Metrics doesn’t have to be perfectly sequential. Conversations are dynamic; the goal is to keep all “buckets” filled, no matter the order ([10:32]–[12:09]).
• Flexibility is critical—the process adapts to the realities of each buyer dialogue.

Quote:
"All of those six things have to be involved in the conversation...You're gathering this information over time and you might get a required capability. Just put it in the bucket. If you find you have not filled the bucket on the positive business outcomes, go fill the bucket. So wherever you are, there you go."
— John Kaplan [10:52]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "No business issue, no business." — John Kaplan [03:36]
• "If you show them value, they're not going to protest." — Rachel Klett Miller [05:55]
• "Every company…is trying to improve a customer experience. Now more than ever, it's so appropriate to attach yourself to higher business issues." — John Kaplan [06:34]
• "The most elite sellers in the world also have the ability to get their customers...to remember and believe what they do for a living matters." — John Kaplan [09:14]
• "Wherever you are, there you go...fill the bucket." — John Kaplan [11:50]

Important Timestamps

• 00:43: Introduction to topic—when and why deals need to be “backed up”
• 01:54: The feeling you’re missing foundational elements midsale
• 03:34: The crucial importance of a “big business issue”
• 04:16: Explaining the “ultimate summation” sales mantra
• 05:55: Transparency and focusing on buyer value—mitigating hesitation in backing up
• 06:21–07:53: Moving from technical features to business outcomes and customer experience
• 07:53: Applying this thinking internally—organizational alignment
• 09:14: Inspiring belief in customers as a hallmark of elite sellers
• 10:32: The non-linear nature of “bucket filling”
• 11:50: John’s "wherever you are, there you go" closing wisdom

Bottom Line / Key Takeaways

• When you realize you’ve skipped steps in a sales opportunity, revisit and fully understand the customer’s Positive Business Outcomes, Required Capabilities, and Metrics before pitching a solution.
• Root your conversation in the biggest business issue facing the customer; technical requirements serve the business outcome.
• Summarize and play back what the customer has told you; this proves listening and relevance.
• You don’t have to follow a rigid sequence; the goal is to keep all informational “buckets” filled by the end of the process.
• Top sellers drive belief in themselves and their customers, aligning personally and organizationally to outcomes that truly matter.

Closing Quote:
"Wherever you are, there you go. Find yourself in a conversation about required capabilities? Fill the bucket…It doesn't matter how you get the information. All the buckets have to be filled up. So wherever you are, there you go."
— John Kaplan [11:50]