Backing Up The Sales Conversation

Summary

The Audible-Ready Sales Podcast

Episode Title: Backing Up The Sales Conversation
Host: Rachel Klett Miller (Force Management)
Guest: John Kaplan (Managing Partner and President, Force Management)
Date: March 25, 2019

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on a vital "back to basics" topic in B2B sales: what to do when you realize, mid-opportunity, that you haven't fully uncovered the customer’s critical business pains or properly defined requirements. Rachel and John discuss practical strategies for "backing up" in the sales process—revisiting and strengthening the foundation of a buyer conversation without losing momentum or buyer trust. The conversation is especially relevant for sales professionals who, due to excitement or familiarity within an account, may skip crucial discovery steps and need to refocus on what truly drives value for the customer.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recognizing When You've Skipped Essential Steps

• Many sellers move too quickly or lean too heavily on personal relationships, skipping key discovery steps ([01:22]).
• Realizing mid-deal that you lack clarity on the buyer’s Positive Business Outcomes (PBOs), Required Capabilities, and Metrics means you must "back up" and fill in those gaps for a deal to move forward with integrity.

Quote:
"You end up skipping steps...and they want to go back in the middle of one."
— Rachel Klett Miller [01:22]

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2. The Concept of “No Business Issue, No Business”

• Without being attached to a significant customer business issue, the deal is likely to stall, be smaller, or lack strong sponsorship ([03:34]).
• Sellers must align with strategic, impactful customer problems—not just technical requirements.

Quote:
"No business issue, no business. If you don't have yourself attached to a big business issue facing a customer, then a lot of bad things are going to happen to you."
— John Kaplan [03:36]

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3. The "Ultimate Summation"—A Sales Mantra

• The “Ultimate Summation” is a simple, powerful framework to structure the sales conversation:
  • Open by summarizing what you heard (proves you've listened)
  • Address the business issue, showing you understand their world
  • Capture three takeaways:
    1. Positive Business Outcomes (PBOs)
    2. Required Capabilities
    3. Metrics ([03:34]–[05:55])
  • Only then pivot to describe how your solution is different or better.

Quote:
"The mantra was really 'So what I hear you saying, Mr. and Mrs. Customer…these are the positive business outcomes you're trying to achieve. In order to achieve these, these are the minimum required capabilities and you said you're going to measure it this way.' And then we pivot…"
— John Kaplan [04:16]

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4. Focusing Relentlessly on Buyer Value

• Sellers sometimes worry about “going back” and reopening discovery, but if you’re transparent and focused on delivering value, buyers appreciate it ([05:55]).
• Anchoring the conversation in their interests is never a negative.

Quote:
"If you show them value, they're not going to protest. Right? If you're transparent about delivering value...they're not going to be upset about it."
— Rachel Klett Miller [05:55]

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5. Moving Conversations Up to True Business Outcomes

• Elite sellers connect technical discussions to larger business objectives (e.g., not just upgrading a customer portal but enabling a better customer experience, increased retention, or new revenue) ([06:21]–[07:53]).
• This approach differentiates strong sellers and ensures the deal is tied to what the buyer—and their executives—care about.

Quote:
"Every company…is trying to improve a customer experience. Now more than ever, it's so appropriate to attach yourself to higher business issues."
— John Kaplan [06:34]

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6. Driving Alignment Internally and Externally

• The same principle applies inside your own organization: sales initiatives must be tied to company-wide, high-level business issues to drive adoption ([07:53]).
• Top sellers inspire belief in internal teams and customer contacts alike that what they do matters.

Quote:
"The most elite sellers...also have the ability to get those customers...to remember and believe what they do for a living matters."
— John Kaplan [09:14]

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7. Non-Linear Selling and “Bucket Filling”

• Gathering PBOs, Capabilities, and Metrics doesn’t have to be perfectly sequential. Conversations are dynamic; the goal is to keep all “buckets” filled, no matter the order ([10:32]–[12:09]).
• Flexibility is critical—the process adapts to the realities of each buyer dialogue.

Quote:
"All of those six things have to be involved in the conversation...You're gathering this information over time and you might get a required capability. Just put it in the bucket. If you find you have not filled the bucket on the positive business outcomes, go fill the bucket. So wherever you are, there you go."
— John Kaplan [10:52]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "No business issue, no business." — John Kaplan [03:36]
• "If you show them value, they're not going to protest." — Rachel Klett Miller [05:55]
• "Every company…is trying to improve a customer experience. Now more than ever, it's so appropriate to attach yourself to higher business issues." — John Kaplan [06:34]
• "The most elite sellers in the world also have the ability to get their customers...to remember and believe what they do for a living matters." — John Kaplan [09:14]
• "Wherever you are, there you go...fill the bucket." — John Kaplan [11:50]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:43: Introduction to topic—when and why deals need to be “backed up”
• 01:54: The feeling you’re missing foundational elements midsale
• 03:34: The crucial importance of a “big business issue”
• 04:16: Explaining the “ultimate summation” sales mantra
• 05:55: Transparency and focusing on buyer value—mitigating hesitation in backing up
• 06:21–07:53: Moving from technical features to business outcomes and customer experience
• 07:53: Applying this thinking internally—organizational alignment
• 09:14: Inspiring belief in customers as a hallmark of elite sellers
• 10:32: The non-linear nature of “bucket filling”
• 11:50: John’s "wherever you are, there you go" closing wisdom

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Bottom Line / Key Takeaways

• When you realize you’ve skipped steps in a sales opportunity, revisit and fully understand the customer’s Positive Business Outcomes, Required Capabilities, and Metrics before pitching a solution.
• Root your conversation in the biggest business issue facing the customer; technical requirements serve the business outcome.
• Summarize and play back what the customer has told you; this proves listening and relevance.
• You don’t have to follow a rigid sequence; the goal is to keep all informational “buckets” filled by the end of the process.
• Top sellers drive belief in themselves and their customers, aligning personally and organizationally to outcomes that truly matter.

Closing Quote:
"Wherever you are, there you go. Find yourself in a conversation about required capabilities? Fill the bucket…It doesn't matter how you get the information. All the buckets have to be filled up. So wherever you are, there you go."
— John Kaplan [11:50]

Transcript

[A]

Hello, I'm Rachel Klett Miller. Thank you for listening to the Forest Management Podcast. I am joined today by our managing partner and president, John Kaplan. How you doing, John?

[B]

I'm doing really good, Rach. How are you?

[A]

I'm good, I'm good. I am excited about this podcast topic. I tend to get excited about topics when we get back to basics. And today we're set up to talk about really uncovering that business pain and defining customer requirements, specifically when you've got to kind of back up the opportunity. So we're talking here about instances when you've moved forward through decision makers and you come to the realization that you haven't really defined those PBOs required capabilities and metrics.

[B]

Yeah, I think the way that you said it, backing up, I think that we get a lot of questions about it all the time. And, you know, I think this is something that sales people deal with all the time. You know, you get. You get to a point where you've, you know, got a lead and they're really excited about, you know, you. Or they think that it's, you know, really a sure thing. And. And they don't do their due diligence, and they realize that they have to back up the deal. And I'm speaking about the rep. You know, they realize, hey, maybe this isn't such a linear motion. You know, what do I do with that and how do I put all the pieces in line? So I think it's a really, really good topic.

[A]

Yeah, I think you mentioned, you know, they're really excited about it. Maybe you're friends with somebody at the company or you. You, for whatever reason, just feel like it's a sure thing and you end up skipping steps. It happens a lot, and we hear it a lot from people who are taking our command of the message training, because when they take that training, they may already be in a deal. They learn our new approach to the sales process and they want to back it up, and they're questioning where they are in some of their current opportunities and. And they want to go back in the middle of. Middle of one.

[B]

Yeah, I think what happens is because, you know, you have a feeling like, hey, maybe something's going, well, I've got a good relationship with this person, and your stomach is telling you that I don't have all the pieces in place. And I think you just gotta just be honest with yourself and just realize that it's in the customer's best interest to define, you know, like, these three things that you highlighted earlier, like positive business Outcomes require capabilities and metrics. Like these are incredible powerful pockets and buckets of information that you have to have from a customer before you turn the corner and try to sell them anything. So it's that kind of outside in approach versus an inside out approach. And when you don't have those things in place and you try to pivot to sell, you got to go back and refill those buckets. So it's a, it's, it doesn't flow very well. It's awkward and rep, struggle with it. Right.

[A]

And you know, you often talk about giving, you know, having confidence and conviction around what you're selling and what you do for a living. And I think it's important for everyone listening out there to remember that if you are focusing on the buyer and focusing on the customer, you are not subjecting that buyer or that customer to your buying process or your selling process. Right. You are drafting into how they buy. And in order to make a good decision, they need to define those PBO's required capabilities and metrics. So John, let's say I'm in the middle of the deal. I'm realizing I've skipped some steps. I know that I need a bigger business problem or I need, I don't even have any required capabilities with a differentiation in them. I know what I need to do. What do I do?

[B]

Yeah. Good. So I think the first thing that you highlighted is, you know, the biggest business issue. And I think if everybody listening can just kind of jot down in your mind or on a piece of paper, paper, the phrase that says no business issue, no business. And what I mean by that is if you don't have yourself attached to a big business issue facing a customer, then a lot of bad things are going to happen to you. You know, the lower the business issue you're attached to, the smaller the deal. The smaller the deal, the smaller the power and influence of the people that you'll be working with. So those people will not have as much power and influence. And all of those boil into not no critical money available for to solve that problem. So no business issue, no business. And then, you know, I want you to think about, and remember, if you've gone through the training before command of the message, you've heard us talk about the mantra and you've heard me and others refer to it as the ultimate summation. And what we meant by that was, you know, the mantra was really so what I Hear you saying, Mr. And Mrs. Customer, these are the positive businesses outcomes you're trying to achieve in Order to achieve these positive business outcomes. These are the minimum required capabilities. And you said that you're going to measure it this way. And then we pivot and we talk about how we do it at XYZ company or at our company, how we do it differently or better and where we've done it before. So we talk about that mantra being the ultimate summation. And the reason why we call it the ultimate summation is when you summarize, we want you to start off with what you heard them say because it proves that you listen to them. And we want you to start off with a business issue because it proves that you understand their business, which are typically two of the biggest challenges that buyers have with us. So it's this motion of three things I'm going to take away from the customer. Positive business outcomes, required capabilities and metrics. Once I build those, I can pivot and make it all about me and my company. And you kind of earn the right to do that. That simple kind of mechanism of that ultimate summation. Three things you're going to take away. Three things that you're going to give back to the customer. Something. And attaching it to the biggest business issue really kind of summarizes the power of highly differentiated value in a customer conversation.

[A]

Yeah. And that pivot and focusing on that buyer's interest is again, something to remember. If you show them value, they're not going to protest. Right. If you're transparent about delivering value to them in just a conversation, they're not going to be upset about it. So for people who are in the middle of that opportunity, maybe just had commitment of the message, they should have the confidence to do the same thing. Be transparent.

[B]

Yeah, I think so. And be transparent and keep it simple. I mean, first of all, you have to believe what you're doing matters. And so if you believe what you're doing matters, then you have no problem attaching yourself to the biggest business issue. That's one of the things that I see people really struggle with. They attach themselves to technical requirements, and those are powerful. So the required capabilities, they're really, really powerful. And the technical issues are really, really powerful. But every company on the planet is trying to improve a customer experience of their customers. And so now more than ever, it's so appropriate to attach yourself to higher business issues. Increasing the technology behind, improving a customer portal for a bank or what have you. We're all caught up in the security of that and the flow of that and data in the cloud and blah, blah, blah, which is awesome. Those are highly differentiated technical aspects which, you know, we could talk on and on about. But the bottom line is the company that they're calling on is doing that to ultimately improve an outcome for a customer who's using that customer portal. So I just want all the listeners to remember, keep it simple, attach to a big business issue, and then remember you're building the ultimate summation. When I fill up the buckets of positive business outcomes, required capabilities and metrics, I can turn the table because that was all about them. I can turn the table and make it all about me. How we do it, how we do it better or differently, and where we've done it before. Simple.

[A]

Yes. And as you were talking, it made me think of something that we say when we're talking to sales leaders who are trying to launch change in their sales organization. And we often say, I've done webinar with you, John, where you talk about you have to tie that sales initiative to a bigger business issue, even internally, because if it stays with just a sales team, reps aren't going to adopt it. It's just going to be in a silo. But if you attach it to that bigger business issue, it automatically has more meaning to the people who are going through the initiative. And it's very similar with what you're talking about, about aligning to that major issue for the company. And it allows you to get out of those technical conversations.

[B]

It does. And you know that there's that really, really popular saying right now. It's like, begin with the why. So we just gave an example of beginning with the why to attach yourself to the bigger business issue for your customers. So why are they doing those technical things and what is it going to accomplish for, you know, for an end customer or what have you. But I really like what you just highlighted is even internally. So I said that people have to believe what they do for a living matters. I say this to sellers all the time, but I found that the most elite sellers in the world also have the ability to get those customers that they're calling on. And sometimes those customers, let's take in the IT environment that's under pressure. 80% of what they're working on is either over budget and or late. And they're in an environment where they can't see the forest from the trees. They're under pressure. However, what they do for a living absolutely matters. And the most elite sellers in the world also have the ability to get their customers in those technical areas to remember and believe what they do for a Living matter. So it's not just a seller believing what they do for a living matters, but it's the seller getting the buyer and the users of the technology to remember what they are doing with that technology actually matters. And putting those two together, like you just mentioned, is really, really elite selling. And I just like everybody to kind of keep that in mind. Not only do you believe what you do for a living matters, because I'm looking at your business issue and what you're attaching yourself to, but I'm also looking at the people you're selling to. Do they believe what they do for a living matters? And the elite sellers get them to attach to it.

[A]

Yeah. And that's super powerful. So, John, you had some great gems in our conversation today, and I know we always like to close with a bottom, bottom line. What would you say for a bottom line around this topic today?

[B]

Yeah, so a bottom line for me would be kind of just remember the ultimate summation, which equals the mantra. There's three things you're taking away. Positive business outcomes, required capabilities, and metrics. You're taking those away. Point of view, you're playing back to them. You're relevant. How we do it, how we do it better or differently, and where we've done it before. And you can't have any missing parts. So all of those six things have to be involved in the conversation. It doesn't mean they all have to be linear, but they all have to take place. When I say by linear is you're gathering this information over time and you might get a required capability. Just put it in the bucket. You might get a positive business outcome while you're talking. Put it in the bucket. It's your job to summarize in a linear fashion to really, really help them connect to you have a solution for a business issue. You have a technical solution that's highly differentiated, that you are highly differentiated for the way you do that, the way you do it differently or better, and where you've done it before. And just always remember while you're calling, we started this conversation about backing it up. There's an old saying I want you to remember, wherever you are, there you go. You know what buckets you need filled up. It doesn't matter how you get the information. All the buckets have to be filled up. So wherever you are, there you go. Find yourself in a conversation about required capabilities. Fill the bucket. You find yourself in a conversation about, you know, metrics. Fill the bucket. If you find that you have not filled the bucket on the positive business outcomes. Go fill the bucket. So wherever you are, there you go.

[A]

Oh, that's great. I love that. Focus on it. Doesn't always have to be this linear thing. You're just doing the dance. Fill the bucket and you'll be successful. John, thank you so much for joining me today.

[B]

You're welcome. My pleasure. Go get them.