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The Audit Podcast
Ep 240: Practical Tips to Improve Workplace Communication w/ Nancy Yuen (SoFi)
00:36:27
This week on The Audit Podcast, we’re joined by Nancy Yuen, Financial Data and VP of SOX Governance at . In this episode, Nancy shares how emotional intelligence has been a driving force behind her career success—from her...
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- [00:00]
Nancy Yuen
One of the things that was paramount and really the root cause was number one, poor communication. No matter what stage of life that I was in, the biggest mistakes, the biggest hurdles, the biggest obstacles that were self induced were due to my poor communication.
- [00:22]
Trent Russell
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Audit Podcast. I'm your host, Trent Russell. Today on the show we have Nancy Yuen. She is the finance data and VP IT socks governance senior director at SoFi, formerly revenue accounting, SoX and risk senior manager at Google, did a stint at Clorox as well and then started her career at kpmg. So Nancy was referred to me by Margie Bastola, report writing audit report writing guru. If you need help in that area, you should be able to search for her name and be able to find her or look her up on LinkedIn as well. She was one of the first guests that, that we had on the show. So if you go back in the archives maybe about five years, you'll be able to find that episode if you want to hear more from her. But Margie and Nancy did a session at GAM on that Sunday. So it's like the pre Gam Gam. And when I saw Margie, which was the first time in five years, I basically shrieked. She tapped me on the shoulder and I turned around. But after reminiscing and getting caught up, she said, you got to have Nancy on the show. And I went, all right, if you say, like, whatever you say is good enough for me, we'll absolutely do that. And I'm very glad she did. In talking to Nancy, when we did the off air conversation, what are we going to talk about kind of stuff. The way we usually do the show is we'll get to know the guests a little bit there, their topics, all that kind of good stuff, and then formulate some questions to ask them during the show. Sometimes we go complete. Well, a lot of times we kind of go completely off the rails or on tangents and may or may not get to all the questions. But anyway, there's a tangent in and of itself in talking to Nancy and kind of her story. It's all about emotional intelligence. And so as she was just like telling me her story, I went, you know what? I'm gonna send you like maybe two questions, but the main thing is gonna be, and it's not even a question, it's just a statement and it's emotional intelligence and the story behind your success. Go. That was basically it. And so we let Nancy go with it and then kind of interjected in between A lot of this, though, is around how she improved her communication skills. That has not been a topic that we have with any intent, tried to get out of guests lately, but it has been a theme which I think is pretty interesting. And she has some very practical tips on and strategies on how to improve your communications. If you've listened to the Rob Clark episode, you know how important that is. If you listen to basically any of the CAE episodes, they talk about basically two things, communication and relationships. That's it. You focus on those two things and leadership as a whole. But if you focus on those two things, you're going to be in a really good spot as you kind of progress through your career. So anyway, with all that said, I'm going to stop talking so that we can let Nancy kind of take the stage. And with that, here we go. All right, so our go to question for everyone for. I don't know. It feels like the better part of a year now has been what is in your. Either your Internet browsing history or your copilot history or your ChatGPT history or any LLM that you might use. What have you been looking at? Professional, personal, whatever. What's been going on in your world lately?
- [03:30]
Nancy Yuen
I love ChatGPT. I wish I had it when I was younger. The latest task for ChatGPT was the weather's changing here in California. So I asked ChatGPT what's the optimal temperature for violin storage and also the humidity level. And it shared with me 60 to 75 degrees Fahrenheit and a relative humidity of 40 to 60. And I have my violins back there. And sure enough, it's a perfect lukewarm 66.5 with a relative humidity of 44%. So I was like, fun fact, that's.
- [04:15]
Trent Russell
Exactly how you're supposed to store oats as well.
- [04:19]
Nancy Yuen
Oats environment.
- [04:20]
Trent Russell
I'm just kidding. I have no idea. That'd be a ridiculous. Were you like an oat expert? I have no idea.
- [04:25]
Nancy Yuen
I would have believed you.
- [04:27]
Trent Russell
I. I am curious now. Like, we should probably take that, plug it in and say, like, what else is stored? Like optimal temperature, humidity. And then if it is oats, that can be your new oat display if you need it.
- [04:38]
Nancy Yuen
That, yes, My husband loves oats. So that. That would be. That would be cool.
- [04:42]
Trent Russell
Solving the world's problems on the audit podcast. All right. Anything else? I love the VI lens for those that aren't watching on the YouTube channel. You can see there's four of them in the background. Like, right now they look. It's a. It's a very nice looking background.
- [04:55]
Nancy Yuen
Those are the ones that are protected. I also have two electrics. One's a Yamaha and then that one is when I play with bands or needs to be amplified or electrified, I play on a Yamaha electric. And then those are the four acoustics. One of them, the smallest one, is waiting for my youngest daughter who also plays. And it's a, it's, it's cute. It's a three quarter size and yeah, excellent.
- [05:25]
Trent Russell
Anything else been going on in your world you've been looking into or chat?
- [05:30]
Nancy Yuen
Well, yeah. So as with every team, my team, I declare the best in class. I have about 30 team members between my Sarbane Soxley, my Sox team and my financial data governance. And as many people are probably in the same situation, everyone's stretched thin. And so one of the things, and this is very sad that I had to search this, but I always want to make sure that I'm supporting them. So I literally asked ChatGPT how can I support a team that is busy, busy with life, busy at work. And it shared with me, it was listen actively, which I loved. Prioritize ruthlessly, which is another fundamental. And then shield them from unnecessary pressure, which I love, and then distributing the workload. And then also there was something about promoting recovery. So we're all in these different stages of life for many of us. Some of us are parents, some of us don't have kids but have parents that were taken care of. Some have, you know, just a really, really busy personal life with a lot of burdens. And so it's really what is on the minds of each of my team members and how can I best support them? Because it's not only just taking care of them at work, it's also taking care of them, you know, when they go home from work. And a lot of us are in these different life stages, but everybody has something that they're carrying with them to work. And so it's important for me in my team that they're all healthy, whether it's emotionally, physically, mentally. So it was, that's, that's also what.
- [07:29]
Trent Russell
I recently, I think given the overall topic of today and emotional intelligence and, and how that kind of led to your success. That's a very appropriate prompt for you. Like I would have expected nothing less from you and kind of your leadership style. So that's very appropriate. Okay. Speaking of, that was really just, that was a my way of segueing into the questions. Hey everybody, we're gonna take a quick break from our guests and if you need to get analytics or AI actually working in your internal audit department, or if you already have some of it, you feel like you're not really getting exactly what you need out of it, you know, there's more you're not getting that. Go to the show Notes, look for the Green Skies analytics link. Click it on the website. There'll be other links that you can click that'll take you directly to a calendar to schedule time. It's literally three clicks to get the time scheduled, to get it figured out. All right, back to the show. And so usually there is. There's like, you know, a handful of questions that we send to the guests. They can review them and everything and all that kind of good stuff. And as you and I were talking and I was like making notes and saying, okay, what kind of questions? And I just went, I think there's only going to be, like, one. And it's basically just going to be, hey, Nancy, will you share your story, your emotional intelligence story and how it brought you to where you are today? And so not that we are not prepared here on the audit podcast, but that's basically it. I mean, we're just going to kind of run with that. So I just wanted to give you the floor now, share your story, and then I will interrupt and interject throughout and bug you with some questions. So the floor is yours if you could share your story.
- [09:03]
Nancy Yuen
Thanks so much, Trent, and thanks for this opportunity. This is something that's unique. Who would have thought that there's an audit podcast? And I love this place platform. The folks that you've had on are amazing, and so I just am so honored. But you mentioned one word that is tough for me, and that's something you said. The story behind your success. And for me, success is so relative. There has been far greater number of failures, attempts at what I thought were successful, you know, and for sure, I did not have success for a long time. And every time I thought that there was a success behind an event or an achievement, I wasn't happy with how I got there. And so, as I reflected and you were so kind to share with me this topic and some of the intentions that behind the questions, I took some moments to reflect back on my life, my career journey. And there were a lot of setbacks, Trent. There was too many to count. And when I started cat cataloging them, I noticed that one of the things that was paramount and really the root cause was number one, poor communication. No matter what stage of life that I was in, the biggest Mistakes. The biggest hurdles, the biggest obstacles that were self induced were due to my poor communication and the second one falling right closely after. And probably the genesis of poor communication was pride. There was a lot of ego, a lot of non self awareness and there was also this underlying current of knowing that my brain worked differently, my communication style was different than my peers in school and I had not even heard of the word that you just mentioned but is now so important to me. Emotional intelligence. I not heard of that term. I also, you know, had not heard of emotional quotient that goes alongside with emotional intelligence. But it wasn't until I had talked with a new psychologist. And so I am formally diagnosed with high functioning autism. And part of that was to take that evaluation. And, and then after that, shortly afterwards my psychologist approached me and said, hey, have you heard of emotional quotient? Have you heard of emotional intelligence? And I had heard of your intelligence quotient, your iq. And I've had exams and I've had medical exams to diagnose a little bit about what's going on with my brain, but I never heard about eq. And when I started learning from my psychologist about what is emotional intelligence, what are the really the four pillars going from self awareness to the social awareness, empathy and then self regulation of emotions was such a critical point in my life and I call her just my healer. It wasn't until I realized that emotional intelligence is so critical for every one of us, but especially for someone who is socially unaware, has already poor communication from some of the neurodivergence issues that I have is something that set me free was when I realized that at the end of the day we all make mistakes. At the end of the day we all have some type of problem that we're contending with, communication or otherwise. For me it was my emotional intelligence. After I took the exam there was a revelation that I am not a good communicator. I am oftentimes without a filter and oftentimes we'll say what's on my mind. I don't put myself in other seats. And this is all natural and this is something that was made aware to me. And shortly after, and thank goodness this is, you know, still when I was a relatively younger adult and I started taking a lot of her, you know, guidance. We mocked some of like the interviews, we mocked some of the situations that I was going into where I was really at like a heightened and heightened need of self awareness because I of the people that I was talking to, you know, at the time, you Know, being in public accounting, it's really tough because you're talking to a lot of clients, first impressions matter and they're not likely going to know that I have high functioning autism, nor is it really on them to be able to accommodate me. And so this was something that also was emphasized. Communication from one of the partners at one of the firms that I worked at was, hey, you got to get it together. This is part of your job. You may be an introvert, you may be socially unaware, but this is part of your job to be able to communicate and to hold respectful conversations.
- [14:59]
Trent Russell
And there was that note from the partner. That was before you talked to the therapist or that was after. What, what's the timeline?
- [15:07]
Nancy Yuen
Yeah, that was before. That was before. And so this is something that has had multiple talks. It wasn't just a one time talk. That talk stood out because as an auditor, as an accountant, as a professional, there is a responsibility for me to conduct myself in a professional manner. We oftentimes use the word come to work as your authentic self. And I always took that to heart as I am coming to work as my authentic self, but acting, communicating, you know, from the perception of someone else as just disrespectful or harsh. And that's where things went really downhill. And that wasn't Trent just at work, that was in my life too. And I had to face the facts that a lot of the low points in my life were due to poor communication. And for me, when my psychologist had started working with me, it wasn't until I went through exercises with her did I realize that, you know, yes, there is my high functioning autism, but also there is this need for my emotional intelligence, which likely stemmed from that poor state, stemmed from my neurodivergent, you know, disorders. But it was no excuse for me to come and show up as my authentic self and be disrespectful. And so that was something where the partner was so kind to tell me. It was the way that he told me. It was the way that he, you know, kind of brought me in, said, hey, you do great work and I know you have good intentions, but the way in the, the way that I hear you talking, the feedback that I'm getting from your team is not great and it's hurting people. And I know that's not your intention. So it was his great communication style that really helped me along in this journey. There's been many communications before, but that one really struck home because it was addressing something of it's not your intention, it's something that we need to work on because I know your intentions are good. And that was so good to hear. So with my psychologist, we started working on exercises. I took acting classes to help me emote better, to be able to communicate better, to think faster on my feet so that I'm not just relying on just pure emotion and being able to just kind of say what I want, but being able to hold back, use that precious moment to pause, be able to self regulate my emotions, read the room and then correspond. So this is something where as I. To get back to your question. As I started to get better and be more self aware and also be a little kind to myself because I think ever since I was young I've been hypercritical and of myself and it was time to let that go. That was a huge, huge rock that I was carrying. And my faith really helped me to say, hey, you gotta forgive yourself. You know, you bring this forward, drop it at his feet and you know, let's move on from this. And I think it was that release and forgiveness for all of the mistakes. Poor choice of words. That I was able to move on and alongside for the, you know, for that time I was also taking medication, you know, with my psychologists and psychiatrists who are both so wonderful. They did adjust some of the medication up and down for certain ones. And that was really, I think for me medication was definitely necessary. And for me that's when with the communication skills, my husband noticed, my parents noticed, my kids noticed. And that for the first time was where I really started to feel, I guess what the world calls successful. Because at the end of the day, my success is really defined by how do I make people feel, are they valued? Do they feel valued? Are people coming along with me on this journey or am I going ahead and kind of overstepping them? And that's my perceived success. And that's when, you know, in my journals I'm just eternally grateful for everybody on this journey and everybody that's been along with me in life or in my career.
- [20:41]
Trent Russell
I think people know what I was talking about when I said, when you asked chat GPT the question that we talked about and I went, yep, that sounds exactly like you. I think now they, they've heard it, they went back and they're like, yeah, that, that totally tracks. Now that you said that, I think the acting thing is super interesting a lot because of it's a little bit different and I would say only a little bit different. So in doing this show for five years, there's Literally only been one other person who's mentioned that. And it was, I think last week or two weeks ago when we published the episode that somebody else said that too. And so for those that are interested, and Nancy might be also. So this is Rob Clark Jr. He's the CAE at Howard University, but then he also emcees a lot of conferences, audit and otherwise that. A lot of public speaking, like, fantastic public speaker. And anyway, it's kind of like, hey, how did you get so good at this? And he mentioned acting classes. He mentioned improv classes as well. So no one has mentioned that. And then with the span of like two weeks, we've had two different people. So could you. I'm interested in that from your perspective, like, a little bit deeper in terms of how long did you do that? What was the experience like? Is there like one. Was there one, like, necessarily like, aha moment or a change from that? Or it was just like kind of gradually over time to where you saw your communications improve.
- [22:02]
Nancy Yuen
It was one class that I took, and it was just, here's a script, go with it. And it was a lot about feeding off of the other opposing actor or actors lines and emotions. And it was very basic scripts. And so a lot of it was, hey, think on your feet. What would this character do? What would this role be? And for me, because it was an official class, I was doing very poorly. I did not do well on my first exam. And a lot of what that instructor said to me is a lot of the takeaways that I have now. What are you so scared of? Why can't you break out of this shell? And it's not a natural reaction for you to react this way, but your character would. Your character would so step into that. Nancy may not, but this character would. And that just unlocked me. And I think a lot of the. A lot of the inhibitions, a lot of the emotions that are hard for me to bring to the surface. Just because of how my brain makeup is anatomically and the way that it's set up, it doesn't naturally rise to the surface. And so it has to be manifested that muscle had never been worked before. It was. I just remember this one scene where I was carrying this laundry basket and I just got home. I was single mom. I was doing laundry, super stressed out. And I told him, I was like, I am not in this situation. He's like, do you want a good grade? He knew that's what I was going for. And I said, absolutely. He's like, well, you're Gonna be a single mom doing laundry at night after your 9 to 5 go. And I think, think it was another person like stepped in and, and started doing the lines. And that's when I realized, wow, it's not that I'm being unauthentic, pretending to be happy or pretending that what that person is saying is not foolish, but it's being able to be in that moment for that person on the other side of me, which was this friend that I was, I was talking to as I was folding this laundry. And so that just taught me, hey, there are these emotional muscles that I may not have used in my life, but. And it started off with work. If I want to make a living and I want to be able to use my audit accounting skills, use those detail oriented, you know, critical thinking areas. It has to be with good communication, it has to be with emotion. And so it wasn't until I realized that this is something that I am going to have to fake it till I make it because I knew that that wasn't a natural part of me. The way that my speech is, the way that my emotions are, the what I want to say and what's appropriate to say are going to be different. And that's when I felt this peace kind of coming over. Because no longer was it, okay, this is not authentic. You are being unauthentic. This is not who you really are. But it was those negative voices disappearing slowly as the emotion started being authentic. It was that use of my emotional muscles and that muscle memory of, hey, when you were in a tricky situation like this. I was talking to an audit client, giving them some really bad news. And it was the way, I just remember that conversation, it was the way that I changed my tone. It was that empathy that my psychologist was telling me about. And we had also, you know, practiced, this person is not going to be happy when they find out there's all these issues. It wasn't just benign. Some of them were pretty serious. And it was, hey, think about them and also think about the facts and keep it in that tone of this is unfortunate. Here's what we found. But you have really good people. And that was the thing. And that unlocked this empathy, this natural style of communication. And it also unlocked this part of my inner self and also heart of being compassionate. No one is perfect. And I think oftentimes when you're the auditor, and this is why probably some people don't like auditors because they met a prior Nancy, that was really harsh. That really only thought black and white, that thought that people shouldn't make mistakes. And I just remember giving that audit report and the findings and being empathetic with while, while presenting the facts and just saying, hey, you have really good people. These are obviously mistakes. These are controls that were bypassed, but this is fixable. And that just broke open the mold of what was the old Nancy and what is, you know, now the Nancy that is going to have much better conversations, much better success and more opportunities opened up for sure after, after being able to emote better, taking those acting lessons, tapping into that emotional muscle memory and being really self aware and aware of others. That was really what cracked open and started this healing and also this career progression.
- [28:51]
Trent Russell
So I did want to come back to. You talked about ego earlier. And usually when you think of ego, you think of someone who's like kind of a jerk and things, they know everything. And that's not necessarily the case. I certainly don't think that about you. Like, you don't give off an egotistical way about yourself. But you said the ego was kind of a, maybe a problem or an issue for you. What is? What is, what did you mean by that? And if you can give an example, that's great. If not, that's okay too. But what was the ego issue that you had?
- [29:23]
Nancy Yuen
For me it was, I'm always right. And that is the most dangerous position, auditor, accountant or otherwise to be in. Because you are not in control. You are not the best decision maker. You don't always have the facts. And when I say ego, I really do mean it in that fact that I thought I had it all down. I thought when I entered a room and shared a report or shared feedback with my team that I am right, I have all the facts. I don't need you to tell me something different. And that is such a poor place to be if you're going to go it together with people. And the old adage is so true. If you want to go fast, do it yourself, Let your ego carry you. If you want to go far, go with others, go with a team. And for me, that was so paramount for me to recognize that ego for a long time. What was, was what was driving my supposedly career success in my early years. But I didn't get very far. Trent and the emphasis on being self aware does not take into account ego. And I think sometimes we conflate ego with confidence. Confidence is knowing I have a purpose, there is a greater master than me behind all of this orchestration. And there is a symphony to be played. And I am not the conductor, I am one of the musicians and I need to be aware, listening, receptive of where my place to shine is and when I need to retract. And there is a difference between that confidence and self assuredness. To stand up for yourself, to give out of communications, to talk confidently and to give advice versus the ego that just demands attention, demands control, demands success. And so that, that's what I mean. Just differentiating the two and knowing who's really in control, you might have experienced. It's not me.
- [32:00]
Trent Russell
You might have experienced this also. I feel like the most egotistical people in the world are toddlers. My kid, when he was three, literally, I vividly remember sitting on the porch and he was like, dad, I'm taller than you are. I was like, no, you're not. You're. You're not. Like, it's a fact. We can go measure it and you can obviously, like, you're looking up to me as you say that. He's like, no, I'm taller than you. And I went, gee, I don't know what to do with this kid.
- [32:24]
Nancy Yuen
They come in all ages and hopefully.
- [32:27]
Trent Russell
They grow out of it. Because that was like one of the ones. I just went, this is, I did not expect this. As they talk about parenthood, but I was like, I didn't, I didn't realize it. It could be like this.
- [32:36]
Nancy Yuen
That is a good one.
- [32:37]
Trent Russell
Like, Nancy, appreciate it a ton. You sharing your story like this.
- [32:44]
Nancy Yuen
I.
- [32:44]
Trent Russell
Can'T imagine it was especially easy. And so thank you very much. I feel like it's something that a lot of folks need to hear, especially like if we bring it to just audit stuff so specifically, which I think this one goes beyond that. But if we pulled something out of there, the empathy in delivering audit result findings that aren't necessarily great and being able to empathize with the person and, and if nothing else, if, if nothing else sticks with anybody, when you walk into those, leaving the ego at the door and not assuming that you know everything, even though you've probably been auditing it for months and might think you do. So I think that's. If nothing else, I think that's a great takeaway for me. I'm sure there's a lot of others for other people. But with all that said, I'm going to give the floor back to you. You close us out. What do you want to leave the audience with?
- [33:31]
Nancy Yuen
One thing that I've learned is you have to find that rock. You have to find, why does this all matter to me? Whether it's a life decision or career decision. And for me, my faith is at the heart of everything I do and when I fall away from it is when mistakes start to happen. And the my faith drives my life purpose. The value and my message that I want to leave is regardless of where you are in life, it's to focus on that big picture. After you say something, after you do something, after you make this decision, that important question of can you live with yourself after that X, Y, Z decision, after an action, after you speak. Because words have meanings, your actions have meaning and they also have a an effect on someone. And so we each have a purpose and we also hold such a value. Every life is treasured and we hold value for society, our family, friends, co workers, those around us. And if I can leave you with this encouragement that has been taught to me and that I see as just wisdom to share with me from my mentors and from my the people that mean the most to me in my life, it's to be humble, kind and forgiving, especially to ourselves, where we're not imperfect. And I say, you know, yes, like ego, it's hard, horrible. But there are days, Trent, when that ego shows up and it's it's oftentimes when it shows up that I make a big mistake. And so I know that the two are connected. And knowing that I'm not perfect, we're not perfect. We're all works in progress. And something that I always like to remind myself is just like the violins and certain wines, each gracefully age with wisdom and know your worth and value and that it will increase as this life passes. And we're going to learn a lot more and we're going to gain that value and you never settle. Always know your purpose and always know your value.
- [35:50]
Podcast Outro Host
Hey everyone, thank you very much for listening to this episode of the Audit Podcast.
- [35:53]
Trent Russell
Whatever platform you're listening on right now.
- [35:55]
Podcast Outro Host
I'm sure there's a subscribe button somewhere, so please hit the subscribe button there. If you're listening through itunes or Spotify, feel free to go give us that five star rating. And it only took me about 16 seconds to give myself a five star review and it really helps to get future guests to come on the show, so we'd really appreciate that. Lastly, be sure to check out the show notes and follow us on all our social media channels, on Instagram, on LinkedIn and on TikTok. Also, if interested, please sign up for our weekly newsletter from the Audit Podcast.
- [36:23]
Trent Russell
Thank you all. Have a great one.