The Audit Podcast — Episode 245: Retired CAE Summer Series – Part 3 w/ Mike Jenkins

Date: June 17, 2025
Host: Trent Russell
Guest: Mike Jenkins (Retired CAE, former VP Internal Audit at Included Health, Facebook, Gap; former Director of Financial Audit for Google)

Episode Overview

This engaging episode continues "The Retired CAE Summer Series," featuring Mike Jenkins—who, after a varied and transformative audit career at big names like Facebook, Gap, Included Health, and Google, has shifted to life as a visual artist. Host Trent Russell and Mike dive deeply into unexpected intersections between creativity and audit, honest career advice for auditors, relationship-building with boards and audit committees, and the realities of evolving in your audit career. Listeners get a mix of practical wisdom, authentic personal anecdotes, and perspectives that challenge audit stereotypes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power and Challenge of Relationship-Building in Audit (00:00–01:50, revisited at 27:00+)

• Mike’s Opening Insight:
  “Because they have this mandate from the board and this mandate through the audit charter, [many auditors] believe people are going to sit down with them ... like an arranged marriage. And just like arranged marriages, those don't always work very well.” (00:00)
• Auditors shouldn't take relationships for granted due to their formal mandates. Building trust and understanding has to be intentional and individualized.
• Metaphor: Relationship-building in audit is likened to personal relationships—requiring patience, empathy, and a willingness to accept if someone doesn’t want that relationship.

2. From CAE to Artist: The Value of Creativity in Audit (01:50–13:19)

• Mike shares how beginning an art career awakened an appreciation for creativity’s role in his audit leadership.
• On Artistic Inspiration and Relevance to Audit:
  “It’s kind of like doing an audit because you kind of have to figure out, well, who was the artist? How did they come to be, what struggles did they have, and did they effectively overcome those struggles or not?... the auditor in us always has value, no matter what.” (02:42)
• Creativity as a Superpower:
  “My quest for creativity and the, I guess you'd call it sort of compliance and accuracy focused world of accounting and auditing are kind of like oil and water.” (07:15)
  Mike says creative thinking allowed him to bring new ideas, challenge stereotypes, and drive innovative solutions (like automation in reporting and more fluid “menu of services” for clients).
• Memorable Anecdote: At Sun Microsystems, Mike’s late-night frustration with tedious intercompany account reconciliations led him to the IT team—resulting in automation that changed their workload and revealed how creativity could solve perceived “immutable” problems. (09:30–11:56)

3. The Importance of Self-Awareness and Playing to Your Strengths (13:19–15:57)

• Internal audit rewards diversity in strengths—it's not just about detail orientation (“…not everyone is, and that’s useful!” 14:21).
• Mike discusses the value of assessments (like Myers-Briggs and Deloitte’s Business Chemistry) in raising self-knowledge and team appreciation:
  “You bring your strengths together and get things done.” (14:21)

4. Advice for Auditors — “The Three Learns” (16:31–27:00)

a. Learn Much More

• Move beyond traditional audit or accounting roles to broaden your skills and mindset.
  “If you want to be a good auditor, you need to go do as many things as possible alongside that. Don’t be afraid to stretch outside of your current job titles’ comfort zone.” (17:06)
• Emphasizes the value of varied experience: acquisitions, system implementations, investor relations, etc.
• On Fear of Leaving Audit:
  “The experiences that I had that were in some ways furthest removed from accounting and auditing were always the ones that gave me the most challenge, the most inspiration. … It actually is what gave me the edge.” (19:56)

b. Learn to Talk

• Genuinely communicate in relatable, company-specific language.
  “Learn the company’s language. Learn how it operates, what it’s struggling with, and what it rewards… Mirror [the language] and you’ll be amazed at how much momentum you get if you’re actually mirroring in a constructive way.” (21:07)
• Humility Is Key:
  “Add a wonderful dose of humility, people, because we all have to learn through the whole arc of our lives.” (22:05)
• Practical Tip: Acknowledge to clients and stakeholders that they are the true subject matter experts; auditors bring complementary expertise (“That line always makes people open up—they feel respected.” 22:58–24:19)

c. Learn to Date

• Relationship-building in audit requires the time and energy of courtship—not assumption. “You'd never meet someone on the street and say, hi, and then say, oh, by the way, we're in a relationship … You've got to build every single relationship one by one, over time, just like you do in your personal life.” (26:07)
• Not every stakeholder will want a close relationship—and that’s normal.
  “Some people are never going to be in a close relationship with you, no matter how hard you try... you just have to figure out how to navigate that set of circumstances.” (27:00)

5. Navigating Difficult Relationships and Conflict (28:33–31:26)

• Memorable Story: Mike recalls a particularly adversarial CTO, culminating in a direct confrontation:
  “I literally had to take him in a conference room and sit down...I was like, ‘we're not fucking doing this anymore. Like, you are not going to take us to the audit committee meeting and drop this assessment in front of them to get us…’” (29:01)
  The surprising result: directness led to greater respect and a new working dynamic.
• Lesson: Sometimes, standing your ground and confronting difficult behavior is the only way to break an impasse, even if it’s uncomfortable.

6. Building Relationships with the Board & Audit Committee (31:26–34:53)

• Understanding audit committee members:
  “This is not their day job…They also generally come from different industries. … There is an inherent, expected, healthy tension between the board and senior management.” (31:36)
• Internal Audit often has “two parents” (CFO and Audit Chair), each with different expectations—navigating this dual reporting structure requires balancing multiple stakeholders without creating bespoke processes for everyone.
• Memorable Quote:
  “You wouldn't invite people over to dinner at your house and, like, make a separate entrée for everyone. Like, what the fuck are you doing? ... You can actually serve multiple guests at the same time.” (34:17)

7. Parting Wisdom & The Role of “Fun” in Audit (35:37–40:00)

• On the Loneliness of CAE:
  “I remember the first guidance I got...‘it’s the loneliest job you'll ever have.’” (35:48)
• Embarrassing/Funny Story: When Mike met Mark Zuckerberg as new CAE at Facebook, he said: "'We're not the police, we are here to help.'" Zuckerberg replied, "But don't we really need the police to make sure everything's working?" (38:01)
• On the Many Hats of Internal Audit:
  “We are the police in a way. We’re also a lot of other things ... we’re doctors, we’re like your coach at the gym...we’re counselors...I wrote it down, ‘solutionnaire.’ That’s not even a word.” (38:40)
• Final Thought:
  “Have fun. Have fun in your life. Have fun in your career. … If you’re not having fun, you’re probably not going to be able to do the job very well.” (39:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Just like arranged marriages, those don't always work very well. So you've got to build every single relationship one by one, over time, just like you do in your personal life.” — Mike Jenkins (00:00)
• “My quest for creativity and the...compliance and accuracy focused world of accounting and auditing are kind of like oil and water.” (07:15)
• “If you want to be a good auditor, you need to go do as many things as possible alongside that. And don’t be afraid to stretch outside of your current job titles’ comfort zone.” (17:06)
• “Learn to genuinely...speak a friendly, common sense language that is familiar to the people around you.” (21:07)
• “You have to spend time to establish any relationship. ... You wouldn't meet someone on the street and say, ‘Hi, and oh by the way, we’re in a relationship.’” (26:07)
• “You can actually serve multiple guests at the same time. So long as you really embrace that and take it into account.” (34:33)
• “We're not the police. We are here to help.”
  “But don't we really need the police to make sure everything's working?”
  — Mike Jenkins and Mark Zuckerberg (38:01)
• “Have fun. Have fun in your life. Have fun in your career … If you’re not having fun, you’re probably not going to be able to do the job very well.” (39:37)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:50 — Relationship-building as an auditor
• 01:52–06:26 — Mike on using creativity in retirement and audit
• 06:26–13:19 — Creativity as a CAE “superpower”; Examples from career
• 13:19–15:57 — Self-awareness and leveraging team strengths
• 16:31–27:00 — The “three learns”: career advice for auditors
• 28:33–31:26 — Conflict & difficult relationships (CTO story)
• 31:26–34:53 — Building relationships with the board & audit committee
• 35:37–40:00 — CAE loneliness, meeting Zuckerberg, and why fun matters

Tone & Takeaways

The dialogue is candid, humorous, and reflective, breaking audit stereotypes while emphasizing self-awareness, flexibility, genuine communication, and the human side of both audit leadership and client interactions. Mike Jenkins leaves listeners inspired to be both practical and imaginative, embrace humility, and never lose the fun.