The Audit Podcast – Ep 262: The Importance of Feedback Loops w/ Clarissa Lucas

Host: Trent Russell
Guest: Clarissa Lucas, Author of "Beyond Agile Auditing"
Release Date: November 4, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the evolving role of agility in internal audit, focusing on the crucial distinction between adopting agile methodologies (the "things" or "practices") and fostering an agile mindset. Clarissa Lucas, an established expert on audit agility, returns to discuss practical feedback loop techniques, the importance of anchoring to a team or organization's "why," and real-world guidance on effective agile adoption. The conversation draws on Clarissa's personal experience, research insights, and audience-submitted use cases, particularly relevant for audit teams seeking to enhance value delivery while keeping pace with change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Agility in Audit: Mindset vs. Methodology

• Definition and Shift in Thinking

  • Agility is often misinterpreted as a methodology (e.g., Kanban boards, sprints) rather than a mindset.
  • Clarissa Lucas:

    “Agile just means the ability to respond, to change, the ability to move quickly or to be adaptable. Agile is actually an adjective... it describes how we audit.” [11:52]

  • Historical context: In 2017, ‘agile auditing’ was introduced predominantly as a set of practices, but the true benefits emerge when agility becomes a guiding mindset.

• Methodologies are Tools, Not the Goal

  • Implementing sprints, stand-ups, and Kanban boards can still be valuable—provided they support an adaptive, purpose-driven approach, not just a checklist of actions.

2. The Importance of Anchoring to Your 'Why'

• Driving Change through Purpose

  • The most effective way for audit teams to shift from methodology-first to mindset-first is to “anchor back to your why.”
  • Example motivations: Delivering stakeholder value, adapting to evolving risks, prioritizing what matters.
  • Clarissa Lucas:

    “If you had one practice to start with, it would be feedback loops, early and often.” [16:34]

• Integrating the ‘Why’ into Everyday Practice

  • Use retrospectives and feedback loops to ask: Why are we doing this? Is it helping us deliver value?
  • Ensures that practices remain relevant, avoid becoming mechanical, and truly serve stakeholder needs.

3. Feedback Loops: The Foundation of Agility

• What is a Feedback Loop?

  • A structured process of gathering input, reflecting, and iterating to improve outputs.
  • Can be used across audit scoping, analytic development, stakeholder communications, and more.
  • Clarissa Lucas:

    “What a feedback loop is, is essentially a way of gathering information or feedback, considering that information and then adapting as you see fit.” [27:47]

• Practical Example

  • When building data analytics or AI products, instead of completing the entire project before presenting it, use incremental feedback (even as simple as a sketch or prototype) to course-correct early, saving time and increasing relevance.
  • Feedback loops are efficient:

    “It’s not a feedback loop... this big thing that you have to do. It's very simple and it's very rewarding.” [30:50]

4. Breaking Down Work: Minimizing Context Switching

• Granular Task Structuring

  • Audit teams should break tasks (e.g., control testing) into manageable chunks to facilitate progress and streamline review.
  • Reduces bottlenecks, the mental load of switching between tasks, and the risk of last-minute pileups.
  • Clarissa Lucas:

    “If you can break down that control or task... into more granular subtasks, then you’ll start to see more progress and... where you, as a leader, need to jump in and help.” [22:54]

• Limiting Work in Progress (WIP)

  • Focus on progressing a few tasks at a time to avoid dilution of effort and attention.

5. Measuring Progress: Outcomes over Outputs

• KPIs and Success Metrics
  • Move away from measuring activities (e.g., number of audits, tasks completed) toward tracking impact (e.g., time on top risks, value delivered).
  • Clarissa Lucas:

    “Make sure you’re measuring that... whatever those KPIs are that you choose, it is aligned with that why.” [26:23]

  • Recommends referencing the Agile Business Consortium’s reports on best practices for measuring outcomes.

6. Research & Resources Supporting Agile Mindset

• Agile Business Consortium Annual Insights Report

  • Provides data supporting the shift from practices to mindset and measuring outcomes instead of just outputs.
  • Clarissa Lucas (quoting the report):

    “We see organizations becoming better at balancing being agile with doing agile in order to provide value.” [33:06]

• Other Resources

  • Lucas’ book “Beyond Agile Auditing”
  • The Agile Business Consortium’s webinars and newsletters

7. Real-World Use Cases & Practical Advice

• AI and Prompt Engineering for Audit Tasks

  • Clarissa uses Gen AI to prepare case studies and answer guides for training, iterating with feedback from the AI model and peers. [02:23-04:45]
  • Also utilizes AI to help with personal tasks, e.g., assisting her son with middle school math by prompting ChatGPT for step-by-step solutions. [07:31-09:28]

• Managing Stand-Ups & Meeting Overload

  • For teams with only one data analyst frequently pulled into multiple stand-ups: Challenge the necessity and value of each meeting; look for alternative coordination methods; continuously re-anchor to the why for participation.

  • Clarissa Lucas:

    “If there’s not a value for them to be in those meetings, either a value for them or a value for the audit team, then maybe don’t go...” [39:05]

    “Always look for that option C. So figure out what your why is, what the value proposition is, and then try to find that win-win.” [41:00]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Agile is an adjective, it's not a noun... it describes how we audit.” — Clarissa Lucas [11:52]
• “Anchor to your why, keep that in mind, have that as your foundation and then think about what practices will help support that.” — Clarissa Lucas [15:16]
• “If you had one practice to start with, it would be feedback loops, early and often.” — Clarissa Lucas [16:34]
• “Feedback loop... is a way of gathering information or feedback, considering that information and then adapting as you see fit.” — Clarissa Lucas [27:47]
• “There wasn’t anything wrong with the things. Where I went wrong was that I focused on the wrong things. It became very mechanical.” — Clarissa Lucas [20:45]
• “If you can break down that… into more granular subtasks, then you’ll start to see more progress...” — Clarissa Lucas [22:54]
• “What gets measured gets done.” — Clarissa Lucas [26:46]
• “Look for that option C... expand your frame of decision options when you're making decisions.” — Clarissa Lucas [41:39]
• “Focus on your why. Practices will follow.” — Clarissa Lucas [41:39]

Segment Timestamps

• [00:00–02:23] – Intro, AI Use Cases for Audit, Prompting Examples
• [07:31–09:28] – Using Gen AI for Personal Life (helping with math homework)
• [10:53–14:21] – Mindset vs. Methodology in Agile Auditing
• [15:16–17:06] – Anchoring to the 'Why' in Agile Transformation
• [17:33–19:04] – Using Retros/Feedback Loops to Drive Mindset Change
• [19:30–21:52] – Personal Experience: Realizing Practices-First Approach Limitations
• [22:35–25:45] – Avoiding Bottlenecks & Breaking Down Work
• [26:12–27:18] – Selecting Effective KPIs Anchored to 'Why'
• [27:45–31:19] – Deep Dive: Feedback Loops in Practice
• [31:21–32:12] – Batching Work and Reducing Context Switching
• [32:28–36:11] – Research Validation: Agile Business Consortium Report
• [36:11–41:11] – Use Case: Overburdened Data Analyst & Stand-Up Meeting Management
• [41:39–end] – Closing Thoughts: Focus on ‘Why,’ Decision-Making Options

Final Takeaways

• Shift Thinking: Move beyond “doing” agile to “being” agile by focusing on the underlying mindset and intention behind actions.
• Feedback is Fundamental: Implement feedback loops early and often to ensure alignment, reduce waste, and drive continuous improvement.
• Break Down & Batch Work: Reduce mental load and increase effectiveness by structuring work into manageable, meaningful chunks and minimizing unnecessary context switching.
• Measure Impact, Not Activity: Select KPIs that truly reflect value delivered, rather than just tracking activities or outputs.
• Always Question 'Why': Whether joining a meeting, adding a new workflow, or adopting a tool, always start by clarifying the purpose—and don’t be afraid to challenge the status quo.

For further learning, consult Clarissa Lucas’s book “Beyond Agile Auditing” and the Agile Business Consortium’s annual insights and webinars (links in show notes).