← The Audit Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
You know, you're getting into your ego if you're trying to impress someone else, if you're making it about yourself, if you're trying to manipulate the other person to get them to do what you want them to do. That's when you're an ego, right? But you can still be confident, you can still be authentic. You can still come from a place of respect and helping and everything else. That's not ego. Because then it becomes about helping the other person instead of helping yourself.
- [00:35]
B
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Audit Podcast. I'm your host, Trent Russell, and today on the show we have returning guest Jason Mefford. Jason is a CAE and Audit Leader Advisor. He also runs the Audit Leader forum. Jason does a good job of describing what that is as we talk about the topic at hand. And so I will save you from that intro there. But in addition to that, Jason also runs the C Risk Academy. It's a online platform. I've used it before. I've got some content, very old, poorly lit content from like five, six years ago that's on his site. But from there you can get cpe. I think usually there's some free options. Also you can also earn certifications like the Certified Chief Audit Executive free from the C Risk Academy, along with a lot of other relevant internal audit certifications. So highly recommend. Especially if you're still trying to get CPE and push those or account for those in the prior year. You can still do that, but check out CRISC Academy if you're trying to squeeze those in again, that's a really good resource as well as if you are, as Jason will explain maybe now, manager or above. Be sure to check out the Audit Leader forum if you, if you're not manager or above, still check it out so that when you get to that position that you have a really good resource and someone that you can rely on. The topic overall that we're hitting on is real conversations with real internal audit leaders. And so we kick things off with what do you mean by real conversation? And what do you mean by real internal audit leader? I gotta be honest, I was impressed with the answer that I got. I thought it would be more fluff, but there was a lot more concrete definition behind it than I expected. There's also these four buckets that we talk about, these scenarios and these buckets of people groups that CAEs and audit leaders have these real conversations with. You can substitute real for the word tough if that makes it easier for you. So audit committee and board as One bucket, the C suite as another, executives, another staff as another. Those are typically the groups, the folks that we're involved with to where we do have to have tough conversations or real conversations. So we talk about some of the scenarios that Jason has seen, specific, real, tough conversations that Jason's had in his career, as well as the audit leaders that he helps work through these conversations. So I think the one there was even one he gave an example from just a few weeks ago of here's a real tough conversation that an audit leader brought to the group that Jason runs and the end result of it and how they were able to work through that and better be better prepared to talk about that when the time came for that individual audit leader. We also just get Jason's general advice on tough conversations, talk about the five areas of leadership. I'll spoil the surprise a little bit. Not necessarily on those five, but Jason's also launching, and you should see this in the show notes. So by now, Jason has launched this assessment that you can take to see where you kind of sit on these five areas of leadership within internal audit, and then you can kind of gauge yourself and see where you might have some deficiencies and be able to correct those. With that said, here we go. Not a new face to the show, for sure. Jason, I think we've had you on every year since we started this thing in 2020, or almost every year since.
- [04:14]
A
We'Ve had it since 2024, something like that. Yeah, yeah.
- [04:17]
B
So I appreciate you coming back. Appreciate the topic that you posed also. So we're talking real conversations for real caes. And immediately what I want to talk about is what how are you defining a real conversation? And how do you find. Define a real cae?
- [04:33]
A
Well, real is a word that a lot of people that I work with use. And it's. It's not necessarily, you know, I like the word, but another word that is similar to real is authentic. Okay. And, you know, I've been. I've been coaching caes for many, many years now, you know, and have an auditor forum where we. We have real conversations twice a month in that group. And. And you know, when people in the group talk about. Or they say a real conversation, right. Because a lot of times they'll ask and I'll say, hey, what do you find most valuable? And many of the people say, I like the real conversations that we have. And so what does a real conversation mean? It means not having to have your guard up. It means not going into the room. Like, you see so many round Tables where there's a bunch of gorillas pounding on the chest, saying, oh, we're great. Right? We have no problems. We're so amazing, right? When most of the people in the room are actually having challenges, but they don't have the courage to actually talk about it. Right. Or they feel like they have to be so guarded in what they say that you're not really having a conversation. And so I, I think for, you know, most people listening, you know, when you're having a real conversation with somebody and when it's just superficial. Right? And so that's what I mean by real conversations. But we're having them, you know, about our job, about the challenges that we're experiencing, about, you know, that. That peer or the issue you're having with the audit committee or your executives. And you can have those real conversations only in a group that trusts each other. Right? Which is why I do what I do. And, and, and that are confidential, right? Because. Because you. You don't. That's why people don't go into a conference or to. In a round table where other people are there, and they don't air their dirty laundry because they don't want anybody to know. They don't put it on social media. They don't put it anywhere. Right. I mean, you can't go out to some discussion group, hey, I'm having an issue with cfo. He's being a real asshole. And this is what's happening. You can't do that. Right. But. But there are places where you can have those real conversations. And that is a big thing that is missing for audit leaders. When I talk about audit leaders, like I say, I've been using, doing caes for a long time, but now I'm really starting to help managers and above because they have the need for those conversations as well before they become a cae.
- [07:27]
B
Right, right.
- [07:27]
A
Before they become a ca. Because I. I get people all the time who get themselves into the role, and then it's like, oh, boy, right? I mean, the. Starts to hit the fan and, you know, a lot of them can end up getting in trouble because they've spent their whole career working on their technical. But they don't have the people and the soft skills needed that are so important at that. At that level.
- [07:56]
B
Yeah, we used to ask this question pretty often. Your friend of mine, Hal Garon, is the one that. Where the idea came from. But you talk about cae, Chief Audit Executive. There's a lot of good A's, auditors that are CAEs, but they lack the E. Because like you. Which is the same thing as saying the technical bit, but you're kind of missing the E part of that.
- [08:17]
A
Yep.
- [08:18]
B
I had. We were talking to a cae, I think it was on the show this week, or maybe it's just a call that we were having, but we. Trust was a big thing that he was talking about. And so you mentioned trust also. And then the other thing, the way we ended up describing, like, it wasn't quite real conversations, but like, to use your language, real conversations, you know, you're having one because you're a little sweaty. You know, like when you get done, you just kind of like do like this.
- [08:42]
A
Yeah, well, it can't. It can be if it's, if it's a heated thing. Right. Because sometimes we do have those challenges that are heated. But a real conversation doesn't necessarily have to be full of anxiety and a sweating and everything else. It's just us being authentic, being open, being transparent, being respectful. Right. Because I think that's what's missing a lot of times, especially when people have challenging conversations is they get defensive, they get in their ego, they feel like, well, I have to be right. And, and it's unfortunate that I see so many people who have ego and are not humble. And, you know, it's like I. There was this, this one CAE that, that kind of lambasted me on social media, telling me that I was full of. I didn't know what I was talking about. You know, it's like, dude, I've been here for 30 plus years doing this. You. You really think you know more. But I didn't say that. Right. You know, we agreed to disagree and it was about blind spots. And he said, well, I disagree that I have any blind spots because I sent him a private message and I said, you know, based on how you're, how you're responding, you know, publicly, there's some blind spots that I'm happy to share with you if you would like me to. And he responded back, well, I disagree. I don't have any blind spots. And I'm thinking, well, that's one of your biggest blind spots, isn't it, buddy? You know, and, and, and the problem is that I see so many people who get into that position and they feel like they should. They pretend. Right. That's a, that's another way to kind of distinguish. You were asking about what's a real audit leader. It's not somebody who is pretending or coming at it from a place of ego. They're just A real person. Right.
- [10:37]
B
And.
- [10:37]
A
And. But the problem is. And I actually worked with a. This was. Get this. Here's the context. This was the head of human resources for one of the companies I worked for, and he told me one time, he said, I don't go to training. And I said, what? He said, I don't go to training because I have all of the skills needed to do this job or the company wouldn't have hired me. And I'm thinking, dude, well, guess what happened a year or two later, right? No longer with the firm. So, you know, and I think that's. That's where we all have blind spots. We all have challenges. And it's not, you know, a therapy session, bitch and moan kind of thing, but it's like, hey, you know, I have so many people that are dealing with things, and just to hear somebody else say, you know what? I'm experiencing the same issue. They're like, oh, it's not me. Right. It's not that I'm a bad leader. I'm a bad person. You know, because a lot of people get to that point and they start feeling that way. And I don't want people feeling like that about themselves.
- [11:43]
B
Yeah. There's always various things that people struggle with. There's always some sort of community. And once you find that or realize that, it eases up a little bit and you're, you know, in your head and you go, oh, yeah, there's probably a million. Literally a million other people, at least in the world that are suffering through the exact same thing that I am, which can be helpful. I. I was curious with the group that you have, if there. Is there anything. So you meet twice a week with the. The CAEs and have these real conversations. Is there anything from the past few that you've. I know we're right into the new year, so it might not be fresh, but is there anything recently you feel like a tough conversation that someone had or they had asked a question that everyone else. You're like, oh, yeah, I struggle with that, too. I'm glad you asked.
- [12:25]
A
Yeah. So like I said, I've got. I've got the. The group that's just CAEs, and we meet twice a month. And then I'm starting one now, you know, as well, kind of launching into last year, but really starting to push this year for anybody who's a manager and above. And we'll meet once a month. Different group. Right. Because different issues, other things. But it's, you know, as an example, one of the. One of the Discussions that we just had that was, you know, not necessarily it came about because of a tough conversation that this person had with their cfo, but it led into a different perspective that everybody else in the group could go, oh, okay. And it relates to, you know, every so often people have that hard budget cut discussion with their cfo. Hey, you know, you got to be a team player. You got to cut 10 or 20%, you know, out of your budget for this next year. And so the cae, you know, stood up and said, no, I'm not going to do it. And the CFOs like, what? Okay? And she was like, look, here is the value of, of risk that we have helped avoid last year, okay? And that's way more than what you're asking me to cut, so I'm not going to cut. And they went back and forth, had the little discussion back and forth. And finally the CFO said, damn, you're right. Okay, now that concept, cost avoidance, right? Or risk avoidance versus risk reduction. Big, slight, slightly different in, in the wording. But what, what most people usually try to do is justify, you know, how we're reducing cost. Hey, we, we, we helped improve this process and we cut out, you know, five controls and saved the company $200,000. Okay? And so that only goes so far, right? Because then it becomes like, well, yeah, I know you did that for me last year. What are you going to do for me next year? And it gets into another tough conversation, right? Versus hey, you know what? We didn't reduce risk, but we avoided it or we transferred it from somewhere else. So as an example, the same CAE who, who uses that cost avoidance or sorry, risk avoidance kind of of discussion took on some other responsibilities in the organization. So instead of the organization having to go out and hire five or 10 people to do this, right? Her team is doing it. And so the difference was like $5 million versus she can do it for 500,000. That's cost avoidance. That's risk avoidance. Right.
- [15:29]
B
If I took a guess, was it erm, facilitation? Was that what they were taking on?
- [15:33]
A
It was actually several different things. There was some risk management related things, but also kind of some second level type of or, you know, second line functions that they started incorporating into their audit plan instead of having to, you know, have another department hire people, let's say. And, but, but the hard part is, you know, usually when, when we have that cost reduction, right, they're looking only at our budget. But when you think in terms of cost avoidance, it's like, hey, you don't see it, but this department saved a million bucks. This department saved 2 million bucks.
- [16:17]
B
Yeah.
- [16:17]
A
You know, and. And that conversation can go a lot further. But again, you know, if. If you don't have a group that can talk about it and understand, because we think those are the same words, but they're not.
- [16:30]
B
I almost wish the CIE in that story would have been like, hey, I need more budget. Well, look what all we've taken on.
- [16:38]
A
Over time that has happened. Yeah, right. Because. Because as she's taken on more responsibility, her budget has increased. I. I think she pretty much doubled her staff in the last three years. But the true cost to the organization was, like, twice her budget, less than what her budget increased by. I mean, it's just amazing. And so she has gotten to that point where she doesn't have as many tough conversations anymore because she's trusted, people can see the value she's actually providing. Right, but how did she get there? Not just because she's all this. I mean, she is. But is by having some of those real conversations with other people, having other people. I saw this, actually, because she's been in the group for many years now. Somebody questioned her and really kind of like, pushed back on her about something that she was sharing from a respectful standpoint. And she stopped and went. And I could tell that she was thinking about it, and she went back, and next month she came back and she's like, you know what? That was a great idea. And this is what I'm doing now because of that conversation.
- [17:52]
B
Hey, everybody, we're going to take a quick break from our guests, and if you need to get analytics or AI actually working in your internal audit department, or if you already have some of it, you feel like you're not really getting exactly what you need out of it, you know there's more. You're not getting that. Go to the Show Notes. Look for the Green Skies analytics link. Click it on the website. There'll be other links that you can click that'll take you directly to a calendar to schedule time. It's literally three clicks to get the time scheduled to get it figured out. All right, back to the show. Quick plug for a book. Anybody who feels like maybe they are struggling with their ego, you are. We all are. Ego is the Enemy is a fantastic resource. I used to read it often, and maybe I should come back to it. But anyway. Okay, so we've. I want to break this down. You and I were talking before we hit the record button, and there's Four buckets of folks that audit leaders typically have these real conversations with. I had five, and then we broke it down into four little higher level. So audit committee, slash, board, C suite executives and staff. And so if you could, if there's specific scenarios you could walk through for each of those four scenarios, that would be fantastic. But, but, and then, and then after that advice, obviously, as you go through this and explain what's going on, any advice on having those real conversations would be extremely helpful. Short of, I think we have, like, hey, remove the ego or try to remove the ego, I think is one takeaway that everyone should have by now.
- [19:20]
A
Because I think that's, that's one of the big things is if you try to show up or pretend that you're somebody that you're not, everybody knows, so you just be yourself because everybody else is taken, right? Oscar Wilde. But it's, you know, you can tell. Well, I'll give you an example. I'll try to go through some of these. Right? So from an executive level, as an example, right? One of the people I've, I've, I've had in the group for many years got a new CEO. Okay. So obviously your first discussion with the new CEO needs to be a real conversation, right? And so it was somebody who was actually promoted up from within the organization. So this, they were aware of each other, but they didn't know each other. And so, you know, the CAE said, hey, Jason, I need to get on calendar. I'm having this discussion next week. I want to kind of show you my slide deck and my talking points and, and, you know, bounce it off you, see what you think, right? So we went through, we had a real conversation, the two of us, right? Because I can tell him what I, what I'm really thinking. I don't have to hold back. And he can tell me if he thinks I'm full of. That's okay too, right? But there was one point where, again, he was trying to, in a way, prop up his group, right? And kind of, you know, like, justify himself. And I'm like, time out, right? That is not the kind of discussion that you want to have on your first date with the CEO, right? So again, imagine you're out on a date, right, with somebody, and first date, you start telling them how great you are. How's that going to go over?
- [21:20]
B
Yeah, look at the car, the job I have.
- [21:24]
A
Yeah. Probably not going to be a second date. Right? But, but again, just because that's not a real conversation, right? Because the person's not being authentic. So there's an example kind of from, from an executive standpoint, a kind of, of conversations we can have. You know, maybe one from a staff standpoint is, you know, how we show up, you know, because I like a lot of Brene Brown's stuff as well, right, because she, she kind of really embodies this and talks about it as well. You know, that the leader, the leader has vulnerability too. And it's not that we, you know, overshare, but it's okay for our people to know that we're real people. And so, you know, as, as an example, you know, if you're having a tough conversation with somebody in your team who's not performing, maybe they're having personal issues, right? But those personal issues are coming into work, right? And, and, and being able to express empathy while also setting the expectations and maybe sharing some from your own experience, that's a more real conversation than just saying, hey, Trent, you got to be here at 8 o' clock every day or you're going to get fired and you got a month to get it fixed. Right? That's not a real conversation, but it's a connection with people. Audit committee, you know, same thing. I, I remember when I, when I got hired, there actually was still in the interview process. I, I was interviewing with the audit committee, right? Because you go through the executive level and then, and then kind of final is CEO, audit committee, you know, wanting to interview you. And I remember, you know, it was, it was a company that I had worked for. It was a company that was a client of mine when I was in public accounting. So I knew, I knew the client very well, right? I had ideas of what, what my plan was coming in as a new CAE to this organization. But when the audit committee asked me the question, right, there's this tendency again, for ego to want to jump in and say, so when they asked me the question, right, well, what things, what are some of the first things that you think you would work on, right? Most people at that point would just jump in and it's like the guy on the first date saying, hey, look at my car. You know, I got, I got all this stuff together and usually, you know, throw out this whole thing of what they plan to do. Instead. I said, you know, that I'm familiar with the company, I've got some ideas. But what's really more important is if you tell me what you would like me to work on, right? What do you think needs to be done? Because this was a place that had a One person designee. But they didn't really have an internal audit group, and so there hadn't really been internal auditing. It's more important to understand. Right. Go back to Stephen Covey. Seek first to understand, then to be understood. Right. That's, that's a real conversation too. And, and, but it shows some vulnerability potentially, you know, as well. But that's kind of, you know, from, from, from that level, you know, a kind of a real conversation.
- [25:16]
B
Is there any overarching advice you could pass along to people? I mean, don't give away too much because I know this is part of, part of what you do, but remove the ego. I'm thinking, you know, do it. You know, it's significantly better if anybody's ever. If for those that have not had the tough conversation and it's sat in their head and just swirled around for however many months and it's just like, just. It sucks, but you have to do it. Any, anything else that comes to mind for you around how to maybe just do it.
- [25:43]
A
Yeah. So let me remind me to come back to that point that you just made, because I think that is important too. But like you said. Yeah. Let the ego go. Don't try to be someone else. Okay. And this is where that word real or I love the word authentic, you know, comes in is, you know, I help people become the best version of themselves, not what everybody else says they should be. Okay. Because especially in leadership, there's a lot of command and control type of leadership that's out there, you know, based off the military and historically masculine, driven organizations. And so most leadership training, most leadership coaching tells people they have to be a certain way, you have to dress a certain way, you need to hold yourself a certain way. You have to use these kind of words, you know, but the really effective leaders are the ones who are authentically themselves. So, you know, as an example, I told you about that, that one CA with the cost avoidance, she's a fire fireball. I mean, you want to, you want to think, think Marisa Tomei and my cousin Vinnie, you know, the, the Italian New York woman that it's just like boom, boom, boom. And that works for her because that's who she is. She's also a very caring and loving person, but she can put people in their place and does. And the way that she, that she does it is unique to her. Right. Other people that I have are very kind and quiet people. They're that strong, silent leader. Well, there's nothing wrong with either of those options. Right. And Instead of, you know, that's where leaders usually fall down, is when they're trying to pretend to be somebody that they're not. They're trying to be like Mike, you know, instead of being Jason. It's okay to be Jason. Right. It's okay to be uniquely you. And so that's, you know, I think in. In our conversations and how we hold ourselves and how we allow people to see us. You know, I didn't put on a suit and tie today, Trent. I'm sorry. This is what I happen to be wearing today. And it's a little cold. And so I show up how I am, you know, the same way. Right. And so I think that's. That's an important, important. Well, and one thing from a personal management standpoint that I share with people, there's the past, there's the present, there's the future. Right. Three different time frames. Where do we spend most of our time in the future and in the past, not in the present. Right. There's no stress in the present moment, per se, because it just happens to be what we're experiencing. But what ends up happening is we expand a tremendous amount of energy when we're always in the future. So what you're talking about, you know, of getting in your head of how I'm going to say this, what I'm. What am I going to do? Oh, my gosh. I'm going to scenario plan this. I'm good. I'm going to risk, manage it. We kind of justify it. Well, I'm risk managing everything. Right. We get exhausted when we do that. I'm not saying don't plan, but I'm saying also, don't be there for very long. Right. And so even in things like this, do you know how much time I prepared for this, Trent? Zero.
- [29:30]
B
I'm going to put it at about zero seconds.
- [29:32]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I just show up and am who I am. I've spent my whole life preparing for this present moment. Did I know exactly what I was going to say? No. But I. I did maybe think about it for five or ten minutes of, oh, yeah, I've got the call with Trent this week. You know what, what were some things that I. That I might want to bring up? And in my head just kind of came up with a couple of things. But when we started, you said, hey, I've got a few questions for you. So guess what? I want to answer your questions because that's what's important, not what I want. Right. It's not about Jason's ego. It's about, you know, this is Trent's podcast. What does he want? What does he think people want to hear? That's. That's what I want to show up and do. And so, you know, when we just do it, right, with a minimal preparation, but just do takes so much less energy, and then it's over.
- [30:32]
B
It was a little different. Like, usually we give guests questions, you know, a week in advance because they aren't used to being on camera. And so even I hit the record button. And you. I mean, I've seen it before on people. You hit the record and all of a sudden, like, their shoulders go up. And so to, like, have them on and go, hey, don't do any prep. We're just going to grip it and rip it, I think would be tough for some people, and they wouldn't be able to answer. They maybe feel like they wouldn't be able to add the value had they been able to prepare. I know even when we've sent them, we'll come to the end, we stop the recording, and they go, oh, there's this thing I've got. I wanted to make this point, and I wasn't able to do it. I just kind of forgot. So we just turned the recording back on and go, all right, make your point and we'll slice it in there.
- [31:16]
A
But. But see that it's a confidence issue, right? Because people are not. They don't feel confident. We need to feel more confident about ourselves. In being yourself, you can be much more confident, right? And I'll tell you, you know, I've been a. Was member of the National Speakers association, right? Went all over the world for years, speaking at big events. And. And so I. A lot of the big name people that, you know, are out there making lots of money. I know who they are. I've met them, right? They're part of the group. And. And I've always chosen to take a different response of, yeah, I would have to prepare. But a lot of people on the speaking stage treat it like a play. They write it out, they memorize it. They. They act, okay? And some of them are fabulous actors, and you can just get lost. Lost in the moment of it. But I'll tell you, you know, back to Brene Brown, you know, when she did her TED Talk, that was the thing that really kind of kicked it off. She threw out her TED Talk and just spoke from her heart, and the thing went viral, right? So what's the difference? You know? And we can sense it in people. You can sense when somebody's acting. You can sense when somebody's being real. Right. So how do you want to be perceived? Just be yourself right there. You don't have to prepare to be yourself. You've been preparing your whole life. Now you can make some refinements, you can learn, you know how to do some things maybe a little bit better. But we don't need to have all that anxiety. But that's where even having conversations and community with other people helps us to get to that point.
- [33:09]
B
The TED Talk thing is just kind of interesting because I was watching one the other day on Distraction, I think is what it was about. I wasn't really paying attention, but they said the guy did. He talked about it. He's like, how much time we spend past, present and future thinking. So I thought it just interesting that I just saw that maybe two days ago and then you brought that up also. And the talk was good. And he had a lot of research backed and everything. And so his takeaways were really good. But the entire time it was okay. You clearly memorized and you're up there acting and you're not an actor. You're like a researcher, I guess, for. At a high level. That's what he does. And so it didn't. It was good. But to your point, it definitely wasn't him. Like, if I met him on the street and he acted just like that, I would be extremely surprised.
- [33:54]
A
Well, and that's, it's unfortunate, but that's the TED Talk format. They require him to be memorized. They require him to be a certain number of minutes and they get coached on it, and that's what they have to present. I prefer just shooting from the hip and just talking to somebody.
- [34:13]
B
Yeah. If there's no slide. I mean, I know TED talks, they usually have a, you know, maybe some visuals that help or something like that. But I mean, unless I'm doing like a, at a conference going to teach you something. If it's up there, If I, if I did a TED Talk, it would be, here's like the five bullet points I'm going to hit. Just show me those five bullet points on a confidence monitor, on a screen. And like we're just going to grip it and rip it and I'll close in 12 minutes. It's. That's what you need because otherwise it does feel.
- [34:43]
A
That's how I speak. That's how I speak. Yeah.
- [34:45]
B
Yeah. Well, I had to do. And that's not. I don't know, I could maybe. Some people think that's arrogant or there's ego there. Maybe I think it's largely just because I've been doing it long enough. But I did have to do. I emceed a conference, a big conference one year, and they sent me like the script of like this is the stuff to cover and say and all that. And even the o. I mean, the first line was welcome to the dot dot dot conference. And I saw that and I said it out loud and I was like, I would never say that. You know, like that just, even that just didn't sit right with me. And it just felt weird. And so I asked him, I was like, can I just bullet point all this stuff? And as long as I get it, the message of call, you know, the announcements, the admin stuff and thank the sponsors and all that, you know, is that fine? Yeah, make it, you know, make it your own. And yeah, I get uncomfortable to that point. I know people who feel significantly better about having it memorized.
- [35:36]
A
So I was going to say just because you, you, you. We've used the word ego several times too. And I just want to make sure that people don't misunderstand ego with confidence. Okay? And so there's a difference. You know, you're getting into your ego if you're trying to impress someone else, if you're making it about yourself, if you're trying to manipulate the other person to get them to do what you want them to do. That's when you're an ego. Right. But you can still be confident, you can still be authentic. You can still come from a place of respect and helping and everything else. That's not ego. Because then it becomes about helping the other person instead of helping yourself, which I think is a big deal. And that's a big life transition. When we can do that and really start getting out of our ego and be there to love and respect and help other people instead of trying to make ourselves feel better by puffing ourselves up.
- [36:41]
B
Yeah, I think that comes with wisdom, which typically comes with age. And so that can be tough for folks.
- [36:46]
A
That's why I got some gray hair, buddy.
- [36:48]
B
There you go. I do want to hit on this real quick and then we can start to wrap things up. You talked about the five areas of leadership off camera. And if somebody's like, no, we never talked about that off camera. We talked about the five areas of leadership. So if you could, if you could bucket those out, high level description, any, any at all practical takeaways from those five areas that you could get. You don't have to hit each one. That would take too long. But something that people who are listening can go, all right, well, I know the five areas, but I don't now what do I do? Give them. Give, give. Give the people something.
- [37:20]
A
Yeah. Because I think in. And by the time this comes out, I'll, I'll give you the link, but I'm putting together a leadership self assessment tool for people because I think a lot of times we get into these leadership roles and we're unprepared. I see this all the time, which is why I do what I do. Because I don't want people to be that young kid that I was as a CAE who just got hammered because I wasn't given the skills or thought about a lot of these things before I became CAE the first time. Right. And so I really kind of come up with there's kind of five areas of leadership, especially around internal audit, for us to think about and to our assess ourselves on. Because what happens is we may do really good on one and we may not know about the other four. And so we think we're being a great leader, but we're dropping the ball. Right. So the first one is around strategic leadership. Now, that doesn't mean having an internal audit strategy that you copied from the IA template and now we have a strategy and check that box. No, it's actually about understanding strategy like your other executives understand strategy. It's about seeing how you fit within the strategy, how you're able to, you know, affect the strategy in the organization. So that's a big one that a lot of internal audit leaders think, oh, no, check the box. I got it done. I will guarantee you 95% of the CAEs out there do not check that box. Okay, Second one I can add to that. Yeah.
- [39:04]
B
Interrupt real quick. Could you talk? You said as the cae, knowing that you have the strategy, you know, you should know as much about strategy, like the, the idea, the concepts of strategy as the other executives. Put a percentage on the number of executives you feel like outside of CAEs. So the CFOs, the CEOs, that you feel like actually know strategy also. You know what I mean? Like, I could see a CAE sitting there listening, going like, oh, I don't know strategy. And everybody else, all the other, everybody else in the C suite does. And I would be, I would push back on that and go, it's a really good chance they don't understand it either.
- [39:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. And there's some basic things, I mean, they came up with a whole strategy course. Because the one issue was, you know, in one of the slides, I put up a picture of this man and I'm like, who's this person? Right? And I'm sure if I, if it was recorded, but if I was doing it live, nobody raised their hand. Actually, I did a live in one of the things and nobody raised their hand. Then I put up his name. Michael Porter. Anybody know who he is? Now, if you don't know who Michael Porter is, you don't understand strategy. Okay? And so that's just an example, right? And like I said, it's unfortunate, but I, I think really 95 of the CES don't really understand strategy, but they think they do. And, and that, and that makes them look like an idiot to other people in the room, right? That, that, you know, reduces your trust. Second one is around stakeholder relations, right? Which we've talked a little bit about. But, but it's, it's all the different stakeholders that you're dealing with a lot of committee executives, peers, right. Third one around team leadership and culture. And so again, you know, some people think that, that, that might be, you know, they're, they're okay with that. I got a good team. But do you really, and do you really have the kind of culture that you want that fits with your organization's culture as well? Because I see that a lot of times I'll see audit leaders who want a certain kind of internal audit because that's what they've been told internal audit is supposed to be. And it's way out of line with the culture of the company. If those two are not meshed up, you're going to be in big trouble. Right? And there's no one right way to do audit. The fourth one is around personal effectiveness. And again, we all think, I'm an excellent driver. Dad says I'm an excellent driver. You know, for main math, I'm an excellent driver. I'm an excellent driver. We all think we're better than we are because of a lot of the biases that we have as well. And really, leadership is self leadership. And so I don't know how many times I've been coaching somebody about something. And when we peel everything back and we get to the root cause, the root cause is them, right? Because every time we point our finger at somebody else, we've got three of them coming back to us, right? And so usually when people fix those personal effectiveness issues, when they take responsibility, you know, when they, when they manage themselves, the rest of the Things tend.
- [42:34]
B
To go away on your. We're better than we think we are. In the driving thing, there was some stat, I think it was in the UK and I think it said 98% of drivers say they are better than the average driver. And I'm pretty sure statistically that can't happen. You know, 98% can't be better than the average.
- [42:56]
A
Yeah, depends on which average you're using. But it's 50% usually for a mean. Yeah, right.
- [43:02]
B
So it was. And that's if, if nothing else, if you're a road rage person, know that the person that cut you off, you've cut people off before. Also, you've rolled through the stop sign, you've looked at your phone while you're at the red light and piss somebody else, you know, behind you off. So if nothing else, like, I remember, because I would have said the same thing, like, yeah, of course I'm a above average driver. And that kind of put things in perspective. So, anyway, all right, on to number five.
- [43:28]
A
Yeah, number five is the audit function performance. So that's the one that most people usually think about. I'm a good leader if my audit team is performing well. But it's, it's a lot more than just that. And, you know, that's, that's why again, I'm, I'm getting more active in trying to, to share this with people and, and start helping people from the manager level and above, because these aren't things that you're ever going to be fully done with. There's always room for improvement, but if you don't, if you don't actually assess yourself right, and if you don't actually, you know, go out and get the help, there's different ways that you can, you know, fill some of these. And, and it's not about, you know, overcoming all your weaknesses either. There's a lot more return on investment in leaning into your strengths than there is in trying to overcome your weaknesses. But you got to know what those are, right? And so we have to look ourselves in the mirror and we have to kind of rate ourselves on all these things. And like I said, I'm putting together a tool that'll make it easy for people to be able to go through, kind of get a calculated score and then give them some ideas for, okay, you know, how, here's some quick, easy things that you can do to start working on it. But the reality is it's going to be your whole life, right? I mean, if you look at, you know, any, any sports person A basketball player, football player, you know, do they ever stop, right? It's like, hey, I won MVP of the league last year, so now I don't have to practice. I don't think so. Right. These are things that we're constantly working on, that we're constantly, you know, being honest with ourselves about as we go through our career too. But like I said, it's unfortunate that I meet so many Caesar who think, I got it. I already got. I already got it. I don't need anybody's help.
- [45:38]
B
Yeah, I think what you're doing been much needed for a long time with caes. It's one of the reasons the groups that you run, specifically, it's one of the reasons we started the podcast and we hone in on CAEs and executive type conversations is because, well, at least prior to a recent book that came out, there wasn't like a book on how to be a CAE. There's thousands on CEO, CFOs, all that stuff. Stuff. There wasn't one. So that's. And I don't like to write. So this is what that was, you know, supposed to be. So it is needed, especially in the sense of no one is perfect in the role that they're in right now. So you have to be continuously learning. So I appreciate what you do for, for CAES and audit leaders. With that said last words, I'm going to give you the mic. What do you want to leave us with?
- [46:21]
A
Well, like I said, I think, I think that's, that's probably a good way to end as well, because I think, you know, a lot of times when it comes to leadership, when it comes to communication, you know, people go read a book. Well, now I, now I got it right, I read a book. Well, that's knowledge, but that's not skills, that's not competencies. Right? Those are things that we have to have to really kind of work on. And, and there's a lot of leadership training. There's leadership coaches that are out there, but they don't understand internal audit. And so I've had a lot of people too, that, that, you know, their, their organization made them go to a leadership training and they're like, waste of time. I want to work with you, Jason, because you understand it right? You understand the job itself. And so, you know, while there's, there's a lot of good information that's out there in general, unless we actually do it and unless we actually show up and do it for real and do it in an authentic way and we Keep practicing at it, right? Then we're lying to ourselves, and we're the biggest liars to ourselves all the time, you know, and again, I mean, that's my hope. And like I said, one of the reasons why I started the Audit Leader Forum, I was really young. I. I got promoted up early into that role. And so literally, my peers were 20 to 30 years older than me, and I was getting my ass kicked by a lot of them, right? And, you know, personal story, just to be real, you know, it led to depression, it led to some medication, it led to some other substance. It led to me actually having a panic attack at work one day. Luckily, it was in the stairwell, so nobody saw me. But I don't want people to get to that point or experience any of those things. Right? And so that's one of the reasons why I started the Audit Leader Forum. It's like I wasn't prepared. I was smart. I'm really smart. I knew how to audit. But there's a lot of these other things around being a leader and about having some of these communication skills that, man, I did not know. You know, one of my most embarrassing points in my career was when my CE or CFO sat me down and said, jason, you are really good at getting things done, but you run over a lot of people on the way. And it was like, you know, it's not just what you get done, it's how you do it too. And ultimately, we all have to, you know, look ourselves in the mirror at the end of the day. So how you do it is important as well.
- [49:32]
C
Hey, everyone, thank you very much for listening to this episode of the Audit Podcast. Whatever platform you're listening on right now, I'm sure there's a subscribe button somewhere, so please hit the subscribe button there. If you're listening through itunes or Spotify, feel free to go give us that five star rating. It only took me about 16 seconds to give myself a five star review, and it really helps to get future guests to come on the show, so we'd really appreciate that. Lastly, be sure to check out the show notes and follow us on all our social media channels, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, and on TikTok. Also, if you're interested, please sign up for our weekly newsletter from the Audit Podcast.
- [50:05]
B
Thank you all. Have a great one.