← The Audit Podcast
The Audit Podcast
Ep 271: Leveraging Analytics and Building Audit Culture w/ David Bowman (Unum Group)
00:50:13
Loading summary
Transcript51 lines
- [00:00]
A
A lot of times I'm asking my teams, whether it's my technology team or any of the functionality teams, how can I support you? And so I want to lean in. And it's part of our culture. It's like, how do we help each other out?
- [00:17]
B
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Audit Podcast. I'm your host, Trent Russell. Today on the show, we have David Bowman. David is the global chief auditor at Unum Group. If you're not familiar, Unum's a huge insurance company. They provide comprehensive financial insurance products to industries of all sizes. We brought David on the show because he has this pretty novel way about using his data analytics resources throughout his team, to the point where Gartner, they were doing this new. I think it's a risk conference, not necessarily internal audit, but internal audit is a part of it. So 2025 was the first year they did it. I would rec. I didn't go, but I would recommend checking it out. Gartner is Gartner, and they always do a really good job with that kind of stuff. They had talked to David about this. They were doing this kind of this study and seeing how people were using DA resources and internal audit. And there's something about the way David was doing it that Gartner went, well, we haven't heard about that before. Let's talk about it. And so there's some research that was done around it and a paper published around that as well as eventually they. Gartner invited David to come onto the stage at their conferen and speak about it to the audience. So I'd heard about that. And that's where we went, hey, probably a pretty good idea to get that guy on the show. So we talk about a little bit more specific, what David is doing that piqued the interest of Gartner. And we talk about kind of a before and after. So here's this new model that they've been running. What did stakeholders think about it? Could you actually see. Could they actually see results from this? Like, that's the thing that. That can happen often with DA or even AI initiatives. It's like, oh, yeah, we think we're doing things that are great and wonderful and we're building these tools and these processes and these analytics and things like that. And then if you were to ask the stakeholders, they'd be like, I have no idea. It seems like they're doing the exact same thing they've always done. So we hit on that. David has a team of roughly 60 folks spread across, I think three countries. And within those 60, there's five audit groups. So typically, you know, there's like an IT audit group, an OPS audit group, SOCs, etc. That is an anomaly resource wise, relative to the majority. Of course, it would have to be an anomaly if it wasn't applicable to the majority of internal audit departments. And so, like, that's great and wonderful. Hey, you got a ton of resources, and you can allocate these resources in the way that David will explain. And that's fantastic. I can imagine people listening, Go, that's. That's awesome. I have two people on my team. What are we supposed to do? Like, how can we implement this? So that's something we really want to make a push for going forward, is we. We tend to have these, like, pretty large teams that we have on the show sometimes, or CAEs that represent very large teams. And I could see the, you know, again, the relatively smaller internal audit team that's listening going, this is. That's cool.
- [03:17]
A
We get it.
- [03:18]
B
You got a bunch of resources. We can't do that. So that's kind of a point of emphasis for us going forward. So David does talk about, hey, if you got a smaller team, this is how you can make this model work. And then we talk about David and his role within all of this. I think a lot of times, especially with larger teams like that, it's pretty easy for the CAE to go, hey, go do analytics. Bye. You know, or go do AI. All right, bye. Let me know when you're making me look like a rock star. So we talk about, like, David, what. What do you actually do relative to this initiative? How do you support it, and how does it continue to work with your support? And not to ruin the surprise entirely, a lot of this comes down to the culture. And so the. We closed with asking David, in his 30 years of audit and audit leadership, what are kind of the lessons learned, the things to do, the things not to do, relative to culture and building that culture. It seems like the bigger the teams, the more we hear about the importance of culture. That might be a takeaway that we've had over the past coming up on six years of doing this podcast and talking to audit leaders and executives alike. So with that said, here we go. David, so I came across you because you had posted on LinkedIn about this Gartner conference. So for those that don't know, Gartner has started to do more conferences relative to risk management. Actually, I think 2025 was the first one they did. So if nothing else, Gartner, fantastic. We'll, you know, throw them a little love here. Folks should definitely check that out. But it's about building a data culture. And I know you presented at that conference also. And so I wanted to ask if you could just briefly what your session was about. And I know it's about how you source analytics, how you, how you do resources around analytics, but what, what was different about your approach also that made the folks at Gartner go, hey, more people should hear this. You should come on to our conference and speak about this.
- [05:20]
A
Yeah, no, that's, that's a great, great question, Trenton. Thanks for, thanks for including me and, and your time to talk about this. It was actually earlier in the year Gartner was, they, they like to do a, a detailed study and this year they did a study around how auditors can do like, basically unlock high impact analytics at scale. And so Gartner is a great research firm. And as they were going through, they were interviewing a variety of chief auditors. And in my discussion with them, there was something I said that was really intriguing to them. And it's really around how we source our teams. And it was, it's a new concept that we've put together here at UNUM Group and with our audit team. And as we worked with them on the research, they actually put together a case study on what we've done. So there's more information out there on Gartner about what I'm talking about. But they also invited me to come to their conference. It was their first conference, as you mentioned, and around enterprise risk compliance and audit. And the one key message that I had about my team and the way we were structured really starts with the culture. And so the way we designed our audit team to get more data analytics and to have data specialists actually assigned to each audit team was a different approach that they hadn't seen before. And sometimes I've known throughout my audit career, we're always chasing this vision of like, how do we do more analytics in more of our audits? And how do you add more quality and value in the output? And it's something that we always chase. And I've done it throughout my career and a lot of times we have issues around, well, we don't have enough resources, we don't have enough time. And so as audit leaders, we really have to be intentional to support that investment of our audit teams to get them more to use more of the tools and the analytics. And so the way we approached it at UNUM was, was sort of Unique. We. I've got the privilege of having several data experts on our team, you would say data scientists. And historically they were a separate team. They were their own group within, within one of our. Within our audit team. And there was always a pulling of resources and sometimes it didn't align with the audit schedule and the plan. And. And so there's just a lot of sometimes maybe friction or just didn't work well. And then the output, like maybe they didn't show up on time and maybe they didn't fully understand what the audit was about. And so I just started listening to realize there was some challenges and so taking the time to listen to my team. I think the way we approached it is now we put together where each of our audit teams. We got five functional audit teams. I've got a data specialist basically aligned, if you will, like a dotted line to each one of those teams. And so they're actually actively involved in the team meetings of those functional audit teams. So they're involved early on in the audit planning. As any audit starts. We got a data specialist working with that audit team. And so what happens now is there's almost no excuses for the audit teams not to have more data analytics because they have an expert working with them. They understand what the audit is and the, and where we're going. They get early access to understand like where we need data for an audit several months out so they can start doing their research and making sure the data is ready for them. And so it's been a really neat experience of seeing integrating the functional audit teams with the data team members together and seeing them solve problems and actually solve solutions that really make our businesses better. So that's sort of the, I mean, maybe a long way of saying what I chatted about, but a lot of it comes back to the culture and how the teams and really getting team members to work together, even though they have totally different backgrounds to be able to work on an audit together.
- [09:25]
B
So you have these five teams. You have a DA specialist within each of the five teams. And so I would assume, trying to think of like the makeup of the team, some context I think again would be helpful for the listeners on those five teams. Roughly, maybe like, what's the average amount of auditors you have per team? So if someone is in a similar situation as you and they go like, oh, well, he has eight auditors per team. One resource is sufficient for that. What is the, like the makeup of the team look like?
- [09:54]
A
Yeah. So of those five, so total, like in our global audit team, here we've got 60 auditors. So that's everything from interns all the way up to my heads of audit. And so we got five teams. Each of those teams say on average is like, like you mentioned, it's like it's probably eight to eight to ten auditors per team. And so, so yeah, so then it's, and then, and then of those teams they might have two or three different audit. You know, our audit size from a staffing standpoint is like maybe three or four auditors on an audit team. And so, so when you have an one data specialist supporting a functional audit team, they're probably actually supporting two audit managers that have two different sets of teams. So there might be. And so that's where each audit team or that head of audit can allocate that data team member to the appropriate audits. And so, so as you know, like some audits are going to be more data heavy data led just because of the content you're looking at and others are going to be, well, there's not much there and it may be more governance related and so there may be less data to look at. So, so, so it gives the empowerment to the, the audit leaders to really in a smaller team be able to allocate. Hey, where's the best use of this, this data team member to help out?
- [11:14]
B
Hey everybody, we're going to take a quick break from our guests. And if you need to get analytics or AI actually working in your internal audit department, or if you already have some of it, you feel like you're not really getting exactly what you need out of it, you know there's more you're not getting that. Go to the Show Notes, look for the Green Skies analytics link. Click it on the website. There'll be other links that you can click that'll take you directly to a calendar to schedule time. It's literally three clicks to get the time scheduled to get it figured out. All right, back to the show. What is. So there is no like DA data analytics manager, director or something like that. And then the second question is the, for the audit managers or audit leaders who now have the DA resource and they can allocate them as needed. I found one of the biggest issues that I find with working with internal auditors and data is just a lack of data literacy in general. So I can imagine like if, I mean, I experienced this myself when I was an FTE data analyst, I got, you know, I'll just say dropped in and I was like, hey everybody, I do data analytics. Just let Me know what you need. And then two months later I was like, you guys know that I work with you, right? Like you can get, you know, it's just they didn't know how to tell me what they needed. And I went, oh, I have to sit with all of you and go, let's go through your audit. I can do this, this, this, this for you. Let's prioritize it. I can't do your thing because I got to do this other thing. So again, just to repeat, because I went on a bit of a tangent. Is there a DA leader or is that on the auditors? And then how did you get to the point where, with these d. I'm sorry, the audit leaders, that they were comfortable enough or confident enough to go, I know how to use this DA specialist.
- [12:53]
A
Yeah, I'd appreciate asking that clarifying question because as part of our IT audit group, that's, that's where our DA team actually reports up to. So that's, if you will, like the direct reporting line. So, so they, so our DA team is part of the. More the technical side of our audit function, but it is a data team. There is a manager and actually we share responsibilities with some of the managers there for the data team. And part of that's that technology audit team with the data team. They are also driving a lot of our initiatives around our technology strategy. So whether it's around AI, analytics and automation. And so one of the ways for us to make that whole initiative to be able to drive it through the team is I needed this dotted line of the data team members to be able to report into each of the functional audit teams. And so these data team members, they're almost like a. They got dual reporting responsibilities. Their direct line is up to the data team, the managers, and to my head of audit over technology audits. But then their dotted line is to the functional audit team that they're assigned to. And so this, so the majority of their time, or the, I would say the high percentage of their time is working with the audit teams. And so what they're doing is, you know, as they work with their technology peers and the data team, they're learning. I mean, they'll go to different conferences on data, they'll learn more. I mean, we're going to be rolling out an AI tool across our company, but definitely in our audit group this quarter. And if there's automation. So they're trying to take all of these technology solutions in addition to analytics, bring it to the functional audit team. And then because they're now involved in the functional audit team meetings, they're involved in the audits, they're building a trusted relationship. So that way they're not a stranger walking into an audit team. And so they're there. And what's really been helpful is now we're seeing this. You know, you talk about the learning and I think at first there was a little bit of like, I think some folks on my team were probably scratching their head saying, David, what is this vision you have? And I don't understand the dotted lines and how this all works, but as we've evolved it and as we've tweaked it a little bit, they're realizing that it's a tremendous amount of value. And I'll try to break it down as to the types of audit work this turns into. So if you have your typical traditional auditor, functional auditor, they're assigned some audit tasks and they're maybe having to do some, some low level complexity of some analytics, maybe they're using Excel and they're trying to compare files or they're just trying to do some basic formulas and look up tables and all that, but they get stuck and they're not sure, like, how do I do this? Well, I want them to be able to take responsibility and do it, but they know they've got to phone a friend of a data team member they, they work with, they're on the team and they call them and say, hey, how do I, how do I figure this out? And so they can get their an and solve their problems a lot quicker. So I call that like a tier one where the functional audit team member does their own analytics, but they know they have an expert they call the second level is more where in the audit plan. And as they're working through an audit project, maybe some of the fieldwork steps, there is some data that we can actually pull some raw data, we get a bigger population. And based on the risk and how the field work is, the audit manager and the head of audit would assign that step to the data team member. And that data team member is going to use their tools, whether it's Python or whatever sophisticated analysis they want to do to help the audit team. And so it's really coming up with a full population type testing. And to me that's where it gets a little heavier. But that data team members involved early on in the planning, maybe sometimes even before the kickoff of the audit, because just the challenges of getting the data, getting it clean, getting it usable and so that way we can get the timing Worked up well. So that way when they do that field work step, it actually goes in line with, with the whole audit. And then the third level we have, Trent, is what I would consider it's more of a deep dive, heavy data led audit. And so this, these are like four or five audits we'll do throughout the year where in the initial audit planning for the whole year or for the six months we're looking at, we'll actually identify those audits early on. And those are actually led by our advanced analytics team. And it's like the data manager, if you will. And that team will be the data team member that's assigned to that functional audit team. There's a more junior advanced analytics team member on there. And then we'll also bring in a functional audit team member into there. And that level three deep audit, data led type audit is really the, that philosophy was what Gartner really wanted to. They thought that was really interesting how we're combining the expertise of an advanced analytics, a heavy data scientist, and then the functional audit team together. And we're all working that because now, I mean, as much as you'd like to have one auditor that understands everything about a business or the data, you really need to do it in a team effort. And so we're bringing those individuals together and because of the teamwork and the dotted lines and how they're working, there's already that trusted relationship. And so that heavy data led audit actually runs pretty efficiently these days. And so it's been fun to see those and how the team has really embraced this, this philosophy and the way of doing this, these data. And I see that it's really going to help us with the momentum moving forward as we do more with AI, as we do more with automation. And it really gives more tools for the heads of audit to be able to find. Like they just need an expert to help them, I mean, do all this new type of work around data.
- [19:25]
B
So I like the support the tier one that you talked about, like, hey, I took this, I'm a staff senior, whatever. Not super high on the analytics or tech competency scale. But hey, I took it this far and now I'm stuck because that's usually what, like if you show someone how to do analytics in any given tool, they go, oh yeah, it's easy up to this point. And then they get to a point and they're like, naturally, like I say, they, we all do this. Human beings, we get to a point, we go, oh, this is hard. I don't want to do this anymore, I'm going to quit. I don't want to do it anymore. And so to have someone, the phone, a friend, like you said that you can go, hey, I'm stuck on this one thing.
- [20:00]
A
Can you.
- [20:01]
B
And it just unlocks it for them is really, really helpful. So I like that. That's how I. For those that maybe. And we're going to get to this in a bit on, hey, if you don't have a team of 60 in this, you know, sweet DA team and all these resources.
- [20:15]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [20:16]
B
And yeah, our advice is definitely, you know, if you get stuck on something, that's where AI is, especially with tech, fantastic to go, I'm stuck at this. Can you help me with the next step? But yeah, all right, I appreciate that.
- [20:28]
A
And if you don't, yeah, it may be trend, if you don't mind, I'll give you a real life example or a short example of how the DA team and the auditors work together because of that trusted relationship and they're more involved in the team meetings. I've got one of our functional teams, they shared with me that they actually, in the team meeting, the auditors, the functional auditors were asking the data team member to say, like, how do you run a Python script or how do you write this and how does that work? And so you get this real life learning. And so it wasn't a particular audit, but they were just the curiosity. And so having that data team member to really help out. On the flip side, there was an audit on that same team where there just was no use for data analytics or deep data. But the data team member said, you know what, I still want to be on that audit. And I was like, had to tell me. I mean, I was asking the head of audits, like, help me understand that. And he basically said, it's like the data team member wanted to learn more about the audit process. And so even though there wasn't data in there, he wanted to understand more about how we think through the planning and scoping and understanding the risks and then how that flows into the field work and then into the reporting. And so even though there wasn't any data that we needed to use in that one, it was great to see that even the data team member was learning and expanding there because he knew that maybe there's going to be another audit just to understand how the audit process works, he would be able to add more value on another audit. So that's one of the things, to me that's just a great example of the trusted relationship between our auditors. And you almost get to this real time learning between the team members, organic, if you will. And I think that's really helpful.
- [22:17]
B
I think there's a lot of jealous audit leaders listening right now about your situation, what you have going. So let's, let's add, let's add to their jealousy.
- [22:25]
A
Yeah, let's go for it.
- [22:26]
B
So you've been doing this for a while. What was the feedback from the team? The audit team and then what's the feedback? I think we got enough from the audit team. I think we kind of get the feeling there. But what about stakeholders? Were they, Was there a, were they like, hey, we noticed a difference in what's going on. Now what are you doing? Or what is that? Was it, what's the feedback from stakeholders?
- [22:46]
A
Well, anytime, I mean, a lot of times whenever I'm, I'm thinking of doing something new, I'm always looking for like, is there a, is it a win win situation? And so we definitely, like you said, we see the win, win for the auditors, for the data team, but also for the business. I think what they're recognizing, they're starting to see that we are coming together. Like the audit team really is integrated. And I think that's where they can see that. They're really impressed with how our functional audit team has this sort of built in now, expertise around data. We can dig in deeper. They're also seeing that we do have more of the capacity to be able to do this work too, and bring it in. And then I think what they're seeing is it adds value to the findings. I had one of our, I was at the opportunity to interact with one of our CIOs, and, and he expressed to me, he's like, David, he's like, we. It's hard to argue an audit finding when it's supported by data. And I'm like, yes, this is awesome. You know, because it, it's like they, it's like, he's like, this is good. I mean, it's solid. And that's, and that's one thing that we want as auditors is, is to really have whatever findings or areas for improvement. It's gotta be valid, it's gotta be verified. And so when you can, where the team, the audit team can show, wait, here's the data. I mean, and it's not just a sample, a small percentage of the full population, but it's like, here's 100% of your population. And here's what it looked like. And they know that we're gonna check the completeness and accuracy of that data. It builds to our credibility. And so I think it just adds. I'll even say earlier today, I mean it's not just an audit work, but it's. I was talking with one of our other leaders and they were impressed how even our functional. They were talking with one of our functional audit leaders or our team members and he was doing. Helping support the business with some special requests around data. And she asked me, she's like, is he like a data specialist or a data SME? I was like, no, he's a functional auditor. But it just shows like, like over the last year he's picked up and he's really become a specialist. And I think that's really the future where we're seeing our auditors. It's this, you know, how do we grow them not just to be sort more of the manual or the pick a sample of 25, but helping them to see like hey, you can do more with the data. And I think especially with the tools and the technology we have, I think you're going to start seeing these blended lines between the data teams and the auditors because we, we've got to be able to do more. So, so our businesses are seeing it and I love, I love hearing the, the one on one stories or the individual stories from our leaders and just like they're really impressed.
- [25:32]
B
I think it's. I forget the numbers like 90 have less than eight auditors or something like that. So it's more common. But quick question on this for the teams that will be able to roll this out. Have you had. So you got the five teams. Each one has a DA resource. Have you had the situation yet or if not, what is the plan for. For whatever reason, one of the five d A experts on those teams leaves, go somewhere else, decides to join the business instead.
- [26:00]
A
That's a.
- [26:00]
B
Usually a something we see with internal audited. Is they DA in an audit and they go yeah, I'm good with this now. I want to go do it in the business now. So what have you had that situation? How did you reallocate or what is the backup plan if you haven't experienced that?
- [26:15]
A
Well, I'll tell you part of my, I mean this is sort of off topic, but it's core to my belief in running audit teams. One of my core pillars is around developing future leaders, period. And so anyone in my team, I want to see them grow and develop. And so if there's ever an opportunity for any One of my auditors to move into the business. Like to me that's a celebration because then they take everything they learn about risk and controls and they take it into the business. I'm like this is awesome. And so we actually have, we've actually had one of our data scientists moved into an area of the business and more of an analytic in the marketing space. And I think that was wonderful. And so it allowed us to step back and sort of really test our strategy and say and this was early on when we were rolling out this design and so working with my heads of audio, we really wanted test it and say okay, are we, do we really want to keep moving forward? And so we designed sort of a job description and really did a search for individuals that had that audit background but also heavy analytics background. And so I think that is truly the sweet spot we're looking for. So and because otherwise if you take on just a traditional data scientist there is an element of learning about audit. And so we were trying to go a little bit faster and say hey, can I find something with both? On the other hand, we've had some new hires even in the last quarter and they only have a data data background and so they're. So again we're going to be. So if I can have a talent join our team that has audit and analytics like that's, that's a lot faster. But if I can at least get someone with analytics, hey, we'll teach you and we'll get you lined up with the audit space. So yeah, so it makes it a little bit harder in the market space because I think everybody would love to have this, these type of talents. So, so they're these individuals or auditors that have that analytics and data background or learning. It's, it's definitely good for their career.
- [28:20]
B
So I think we've teased it enough now. So if you had, let's say, let's say you had five auditors without a resource and then let's say well you can take it however you want to and then let's say because typically if you teams we work with that there's you know, between 10 to 20 there's usually a full time data analyst these days we always Recommend about take 10% of the team that should be your data analysts internal yet 20, we would expect two if you want a world class function anyway. So how would you roll this out across some of those different scenarios?
- [28:56]
A
No, that's good, that's a good question too. And again I truly would say it is a privilege for us to have so many auditors work, I mean as we support our large, large company. But prior, I mean earlier in my career, I definitely know what it's like to have five or seven auditors. And, and so I, I definitely know what, and I've always been a proponent to always have like an IT auditor. And, and I think sometimes the challenge when you only have one person designated to be a SME in an area is you can actually even in a small team, it's hard to believe, but I've seen it and I've, I've joined audit teams or led audit teams of five and it's like I have five silos and so then it really, really this was, it really comes out to be, it's the cultural. And so even if you have a small team and you've got this vision that says I wanted, we want to do more high impact audits with analytics. I think you have to take the time with each of the team, with the team and maybe with a smaller team you could probably do in a team meeting and you may be able to go through it a little bit faster. But it's trying to listen and understand where are the pain points, like what are the challenges in doing more data LED audits. And so I think, you know, when I talk about having five auditors and I have like five silos, it was because there was no communication between them. And so, you know, or even just having team meetings. So I think some of the ways to do it is like increase your, your connections even with my small teams. And again I, you basically have these specialists in the in or subject matter experts in different areas. I started challenging the team and held them accountable to rotate and learn other parts of the audit. So if you're an IT auditor, do some, do some operational audits or do some SOX audits and so and so but in the same way your SOX auditor needs to do some IT audits. And so it's broadening their skills and their experiences. And so I would do the same thing with the data team member. So if I were able to get somebody or if I had an auditor of the five who had any inkling or some passion to learn more about analytics, I would have to look at my look at the audit plan and the resources and really allocate time for them to learn and test and try, fail, get better at it. And again, especially with the tools available these days are so much better than decades ago. And so I think they could probably just, they just need the time and the space to start trying it. And then I think as an audit leader, you've got to look at the culture of how do they interact with each other and how do you. So if you got your other auditors are saying, well, I'm not the data expert, how do you get them to be integrated and sort of partner teamwork, work together in solving an audit work? And so I think that's really the key is like, how do you build that trust with each other and just look for those opportunities to solve problems? And each audit team is going to be different, even though we all have the same audit standards. No matter if you're a small audit group or a large. But each audit team has to align with the goals and the vision of the audit committee and then of management, the culture of the company. So yeah, you get. So each other team will look and feel a little different. At least that's my experience. But I think you try to work with your professionals to say, like, how do we work together as opposed to independently, does that make sense? And I think so. Even in a small team you can find you may have to be a little more creative. But it's finding those opportunities for them to work together and bring the best to the game.
- [32:51]
B
So yeah, the AI tools have definitely made a difference for a lot of folks. I mean that's the primary way. If we like work with a team of five, we're teaching them how to use Copilot ChatGPT to actually do the stuff that you would typically hire a full time analyst for, at least to get that immediate result. And know, is there something here in the data, yes or no, as a way to do that. But see, I think, I think taking advantage of, I'll say copilot because that's what most teams are on. But taking advantage of Copilot is effectively adding a full time data analyst for each auditor. Like there's processes that you can put in place to make that happen.
- [33:32]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:33]
B
There's still data literacy that has to be learned. Data acquisition still an issue for people.
- [33:37]
A
But even then you can leverage the.
- [33:39]
B
Tools to get really, really close there. But yeah, um, all right, I don't want to sound offensive. I realized as I was thinking about this, this might sound offensive. What do you do? What's your role?
- [33:52]
A
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, no, that's a great, that's a great question. So yeah, so my role, I'm the chief auditor for Unum Group. So it's a large insurance company and we're based in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And so but most of my career earlier I was, I was in the Texas area. But what I do is basically lead our global team. Like I mentioned earlier, we got 60 auditors and the way we break up our teams is we've got a SOX team, we got a corporate audit team. So it's looking at maybe typical functions that would, for any, any public company would have. We have an operational audit team. So it's focused on insurance type, you know, claims premiums, any in the operational area, the core of our business. And then we, like I mentioned, we do have a technology audit team. So that includes IT audit and data. And then we have an international team. We've got auditors based in the UK and also in Poland. So my job is really around, maybe a key word would be like almost like a spokesperson for this global audit team and sort of managing, making sure we're, we're, you know, give vision and inspiration to the teams. Making sure our culture is, you know, we're being adhering to our internal audit standards but then also fulfilling our duties to the company. And so as a, as a chief auditor, the other key thing is you've got to be ready to address any risk that may pop up or come across anywhere in the organization. So again, and so for me, having a team structured with the five like the five teams we have, we're well suited for whether it's a cyber risk or an AI, could be any operational compliance or ethics items, anything that pops up, it could be a new and emerging risk. We've got to be ready to, to deal with that in anywhere throughout our company. Yeah, I think, you know, the other key element of my role is reporting functionally to our audit committee. And so a lot of my, we would say duties and responsibilities are detailed out in our, into our allotted charter. And so whatever we say we're going to do in our charter, it's, it's my name, my title that's on to make sure that we actually follow through on each one of those commitments. And so, so part of that role then is making sure, holding each of the audit teams accountable to deliver high quality audits. Whether it's throughout our methodology and our activities, maintaining our independence, objectivity, integrity, professionalism, I mean that's all just core to what's key for a chief auditor. And so because of the size of the team, a lot of it is just setting the tone and making sure we have the right culture throughout. And a lot of it comes down to hiring the right team members, the right leaders to make sure that we maintain our culture and actually continually improve it. So it's a daily activity. And so as we've been talking about technology, where this really comes into play is setting the vision. And a lot of times I'm asking my teams, whether it's my technology team or any of the functionality teams, how can I support you? And so I want to lean in and it's part of our culture. It's like, how do we help each other out? So how can I, like, if we're running into barriers with getting licenses for the right tools, it's making sure my team members have my support and in making sure that we can get in. And so that was actually a conversation we had this week. And, and so I was like, I let my, my team be able to follow up with the right resources in it. And, and I told them, I said, if we don't get a timely response, let me know and I'll, and I'll do my part working with the executives and the leaders to make sure we have the support. And so, which is great. And, but then I'd even say, Trent, I even go back to like when we're setting our financial budget for department budget and I'm working with my auditors and we're understanding what our strategy is and there is a technology part we want to invest, whether it in our audit management system, whether it is in the AI tools, whether it's in automation analytical tools, it costs. And so we, we allocate part of our budget to technology. And, and so I think my team, what I want them to see is, is that not only they hear the vision and, and the, and sort of like, what are we shooting for? Like what do we want to be in the future? But it's also giving them the resources, the funding, and then the, the leadership support that says, hey, we're, we'll, we'll follow through and we'll get this done. So, and because it's almost like go back to like in reports of the audit committee. One thing I've learned in my, my years report to audit committees, it's never good to go to the audit committee and say, I didn't get the audit plan done because I didn't have the resources. And so that's, you know, I've got to follow through. And as a leader, you've got to have something, if it's difficult conversations with, with others, it says like, I need to have the team, I need to have the, the tools, the resources, be able to follow through and, and to achieve our strategy that Our board level has, has approved on. So that's what I was thinking when.
- [39:29]
B
You talked about the asking for the tool is the culture that sounds like you've built where the team is empowered or at least not scared to go, hey, David, we need this to make this work. Because I know when I was an fte, there was a tool that I wanted. Needed, maybe even wanted is probably more accurate just because it was cool, it was an automation tool. And I was like, oh. And I had some use cases. I was like, oh, we can save time. We can do all this stuff. And it kind of took like, I spent a lot of time building up, you know, the business case for it and then ultimately I took it to the director and she was like, yeah, of course. Like, yeah, I didn't, I made it 30 seconds in my shield. She was like, it's not that big a deal. It's fine. But I was just, you know, I didn't know.
- [40:09]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [40:11]
B
In the same way that like you have to go to the audit committee and ask for resources. I was, I thought what you were gonna, where you're gonna go with that is you go to the audit committee and go, we didn't do what we said we were going to do because we don't have resource enough resources. And they go, yeah, well, David, why didn't you ask for more research?
- [40:27]
A
You know, like. But yeah, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, I'm not gonna do that.
- [40:32]
B
Yeah.
- [40:32]
A
Yeah. And that's. And that you're absolutely right. And so really, you know, but, but at the same point, we've got to be good stewards of the, of the resources that, that are allocated to us in the company and, and making sure we do get a good return on that investment. And so it, so yeah, but it is a working. Yeah. Relationship there.
- [40:51]
B
Yep. What else have you learned in your, your 30ish years?
- [40:56]
A
Yeah.
- [40:57]
B
Lessons learned on the maybe the dos and don'ts of building the type of culture that you have or that maybe someone else wants to have.
- [41:05]
A
Yeah, no, that's good. Yeah, I, I would say, yeah. What I've learned over my time, and it is interesting when I look back, I think early on in my career and as you're. I was doing some extra working with the big four and then moved into internal audit. Sometimes it's just a grind and sometimes you don't realize what you're learning and in sort of the bigger picture. And now I guess that's one thing with time is that you've got. I've got this privilege of looking back and realizing how important culture really is. And, and then part of it from an auditor standpoint is understanding the importance of trust. And. And then it really gets to, like, how do you build that trust? And so we're, you know, so my challenges now, Trent, is, you know, how do you, you know, how do I take what I've learned throughout my career and pass it on to my auditors and my professionals? And so a lot of that comes through the way that I like to work. And so I would say it's key, like, don't ignore culture. It's always there whether you like it or not. Because culture is really the shared values. It's how we behave, how we work. And sometimes the culture really gets down to what is it, what are the behaviors we're willing to tolerate. And so as a leader, it really becomes our responsibility to set the tone, set the culture, and hold each other accountable. To that, I would also say, like, don't assume that everybody on the team has the same, shares the same values. And so that's sort of the accountability and just making sure it's. Sometimes it's a daily, you know, the way that, that as a leader, I just have to be consistent in how I, how I act and how I engage with my team. And not just my team, but even the larger those in the company. And so really, it's making sure it's a healthy culture. And so in, in being newer to the company. I mean, I've got four and a half years now with the company, and I was started leading the team. I realized they didn't know me. And so it gave me an exercise of documenting my principles of principles, my values. And so building trust is. Was like the cornerstone. And so it's like, how do we show up being credible, being reliable, being consistent? There's another element of, like, as auditors, we know no surprises. And I even take that a step further. That's like, hey, that's how we communicate. We need to communicate early and often, not only with each other, but also with our stakeholders. And that's one way that we build trust. Another way of building trust is through meeting commitments. And it could be as simple as an auditor who has a task that they're supposed to get done by the end of the day. And if they make that commitment, like, do what you say you're going to do. And that's the same for me. When I go to an audit committee and make a commitment, we're going to do this audit plan, it's like we're going to follow through. And so if we all meet our commitments, we are actually to do it. Another principle is like around being a problem solver and just bringing ideas and solutions, being open, asking questions. Another great way I found a lot of times as auditors, we ask a lot of questions. And as I look back at my career, a lot of times it's the questions we ask that actually drive actions because the business will understand. Like, hey, wait, audit. You're asking this question, you're asking for more data and I see how you're doing it. Like, why am I not doing that? And so it almost, it's like a lot of times our questions can actually add value to the business because it gives them time to stop, ponder and then recognize they need to do something better. And then one of the core things that I end up leaving with is I've encouraged, I'm starting and I've been encouraging my teams to leave an area that you're auditing better than when you started. And so how do we leave? And it could be a simple audit or I even take into a personnel, like if I do one on one meetings with any of my professionals or even a business leader, I even try to think like, hey, in this 30 minutes, how do I leave them better than when they walked in or they joined a call? And so how do we just encourage each other, you know, learn something new. And I'm looking for things to learn. And so I don't know, those are just some of the, the things that I think about. And, and again, I would also say don't assume that soft. I mean a lot of this is like, David, this is a lot of soft skills. Don't assume that it's easy. Sometimes the softer skills are the hardest. And, and so it's, it's, it's just taking the time and the energy to care for one another and, and just encourage it for us to do, do the best.
- [45:55]
B
As you said, the soft skills are hard. I feel like the, what popped in my head was like the soft skills make you sweat. Almost like that's the tough part.
- [46:02]
A
Like I've never sweat it is, you.
- [46:04]
B
Know, just writing a script or you know, doing some kind of analytic thing but having a tough conversation afterwards.
- [46:10]
A
It's always like, yeah, yeah, I totally.
- [46:13]
B
Agree with you and I am glad that we, you talked about, you spend 30 minutes with someone, you hope you leave them better than when they came in there. And as we wrap it up, wish we would have got that accomplished. You would have mentioned that, the first part, because I'm sorry, sitting here going, I don't think I added anything to David's life, but he certainly added to mine and to all the listeners.
- [46:31]
A
So thank you for that.
- [46:32]
B
All right, David, I appreciate it. I mean, if nothing else, the years I've spent working in audit analytics and to, to pick your brain and see what you guys are doing, that's, that's pretty novel. Is super interesting to me. I almost wanted to spend the full hour that we had together just talking about that, but realized that we had to give back to the listeners. So for their sake, I asked some other questions unrelated. But with all that said, again, thank you very much for coming on. I'm going to hand the mic to you and let you leave the audience with your message.
- [47:05]
A
That's great. Thanks again, Trent. I appreciate the opportunity to chat with you. And as you can tell, I'm passionate about this topic and developing auditors and even adding in the analytics and the data side of it. And I think, you know, one thing I just want to leave is don't underestimate the value of trust. So no matter what part of the audit team you're, you're in, a lot of our, Our role in a company is to, is to build that trust. And because the messages we have can be difficult. And so when we have that credibility is really important. And I really appreciate a couple. My audit committee chair made it really simple for me in building trust. He said, he encouraged me. He said, david, make connections that build relationships. It's when you have connections, you build relationships. And it's only when you have relationships that you can have that trust. And so to me, having connections, having relationships, and then trust is really a simple way to think about it. And then the second thing I would add is just be kind. Be kind to yourselves. Be kind to others. It. Especially in the work we do as audit professionals, it can be hard, and it's, and I just want to say is like, you know, a lot of times I'm thinking about that kindness and thinking before I hit send on an email, and oftentimes I'm having to go back and, and think about how would I want to be treated. And so that is, I think that's, you know, the role of audit is, is a special role within the company, and I think we need to respect that. But at the same point, I think we got to be, be kind, and our business partners, our stakeholders will appreciate that. But then also for yourself, you've got, that's really important to take care of yourself and be kind. And then it's going back to leave it better than when you started, I think. And you can define the it as whatever it might be, whether it is yourself, whether it's others, your team members, it could be your external auditors, you know, find ways to help each other get better. This is a big journey in life that we're going through and what a great opportunity we have to work with one another. And so when we can be givers and help each other, I think that's where it really becomes rewarding and you can see the benefits of it. So. But thanks again. I do appreciate the opportunity to be here and look forward to connecting with you in the future. Thanks.
- [49:35]
C
Hey everyone, thank you very much for listening to this episode of the Audit Podcast. Whatever platform you're listening on right now, I'm sure there's a subscribe button somewhere, so please hit the subscribe button there. If you're listening through itunes or Spotify, feel free to go give us that five star rating. It only took me about 16 seconds to give myself a five star review and it really helps to get future guests to come on the show, so we'd really appreciate that. Lastly, be sure to check out the show notes and follow us on all our social media channels, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, and on TikTok. Also, if you're interested, please sign up for our weekly newsletter from the Audit Podcast.
- [50:08]
B
Thank you all. Have a great one.