EP1: The Motherhood Mindset

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Authentic Society Episode: EP1: The Motherhood Mindset
Release Date: November 4, 2024

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Introduction

In the inaugural episode of The Authentic Society, hosts A and B dive deep into the multifaceted topic of motherhood, exploring family dynamics, fertility planning, societal pressures, and the personal transformations that come with raising children. This episode serves as a candid conversation for anyone navigating or contemplating the journey of parenthood.

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Family Planning and the Biological Clock

The discussion begins with an exploration of fertility planning and the societal notion of the "biological clock." Host B shares a personal anecdote about expecting their fourth child:

B [00:10]: "Yes, we're excited because on today we're going to be talking about children, family, fertility planning, and navigating that biological clock."

B reveals the genders of their children, highlighting a common experience of "gender disappointment" when the desired gender doesn't align with reality:

A [00:36]: "Yay. Were you disappointed it wasn't a boy?"
B [00:40]: "No, I actually, like, Caleb and I are nerdy and we were kind of thinking it was probably going to be a girl because, like, most often, statistically, when you have two of one, you're going to have the third of another."

Reflecting on societal expectations, the hosts discuss the pressures women face regarding when to have children:

A [08:54]: "I feel like I'm running out of time, essentially. I know I am. I hate that feeling as women that we are on a biological clock."

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Managing Multiple Children and Age Gaps

A significant portion of the episode delves into the dynamics of managing multiple children with varying age gaps. B shares insights from their experience with four children, emphasizing the benefits of having siblings close in age:

B [03:01]: "So Axel and Evie were two and a half years apart. Joey and Evie. Joey and this baby are literally going to be two years apart. Like two years in a month."

The conversation highlights how close age gaps can foster strong sibling bonds and make family activities, like trips to Disney World, more enjoyable:

A [03:11]: "You go to Disney World, they all have a buddy."
B [03:13]: "Yeah. And Axel and Evie are like the best of buds."

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Societal Pressures and Opinions on Family Size

Hosts A and B discuss the societal expectations surrounding the ideal number of children. B addresses the criticism they faced for having four children:

B [05:40]: "It's like, people said, like, stuff. And even, like, a third baby is crazy because you go from two kids to a third kid, and it's like, oh, my gosh, your hands are so full."

A counters by pointing out that many influencers and bloggers normalize larger families, though B provides a more nuanced view:

A [06:12]: "I think that's very in the norm."
B [06:20]: "I think two is. And I think three is kind of like, wow, you're in a lot. Bloggers and influencers are not the norm."

The hosts reflect on how economic factors and societal narratives influence decisions about having children:

B [14:29]: "We are so isolated in our modern day life that we don't have the help that we once God."
A [22:57]: "Or is it selfish to have a child knowing that they're not going to grow up in a stable, healthy, wealthy environment?"

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Building Supportive Communities

A pivotal theme is the importance of building and maintaining a supportive community for parenting. B emphasizes the role of engaged friendships and communal support:

B [15:02]: "Like we used to have other moms. Like once upon a time it was like moms all just like you raised the whole neighborhood, had kids and the whole neighborhood."

A shares personal strategies for cultivating a supportive network, especially when lacking extended family:

A [16:26]: "And I think a lot of people don't have that. I know, for me, since we live on, you know, what I call the compound, my sister and brother-in-law, they have two kids and they live across the street."

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Parenting Roles and Responsibilities

The episode delves into the division of parenting duties, highlighting modern shifts towards more balanced parental roles. B praises their partner's active involvement:

B [28:24]: "Caleb's a very different dad than like."
A [28:29]: "She's working. You work."

A underscores the significance of selecting a partner who is equally committed to parenting:

A [26:23]: "I think that's 100%. I think when they marry, that was one of the questions I asked for myself. Is he going to be a good father?"

The hosts note generational changes in parenting, with millennial dads being more engaged compared to previous generations:

B [27:25]: "I feel like in just like my... What I see anecdotally, I see a lot millennial dads, way more involved than like our parents were."
A [27:25]: "Yeah."

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Emotional and Personal Transformations Through Motherhood

A and B explore the profound personal changes that come with becoming parents. B recounts their evolution from a turbulent upbringing to a more composed adult:

B [08:05]: "You get kids who have, like, emotional dysregulation and stuff like that, but a lot of times, like, how you react is how they react."

A shares fears about losing personal freedom and the anxiety associated with parenting:

A [25:41]: "I'm scared to death. I'm scared to death. It terrifies me."
B [36:00]: "That's like, that's why motherhood changes you so much."

The hosts discuss overcoming fears through experience and building confidence with each additional child:

B [35:32]: "No, you can't win this. So funny enough, Hunter and I were talking about this yesterday."
A [38:19]: "So that might change. Like when I said one and done, that completely could change."

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Financial and Social Considerations

Economic stability emerges as a critical factor influencing decisions about having children. The hosts debate the implications of raising children amidst financial uncertainties:

A [24:01]: "I just do think the younger generation below us is starting to see, like, I struggle with bills. The economy's not great right now."

B references a Wall Street Journal article discussing low birth rates and potential societal collapse, contrasting it with personal beliefs about parenting motivations:

B [22:17]: "...they're literally paying people this Wall Street Journal. I'm gonna have to pull it up."

They ponder whether societal encouragement to have more children is driven by economic needs:

B [24:23]: "But I do think that that is something that a lot of countries are thinking. So they're thinking about it from an economic standpoint."

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Balancing Personal Life and Parenting

The conversation turns to balancing personal aspirations with the demands of parenthood. A expresses contentment with her current life and apprehension about the significant changes children bring:

A [06:27]: "Yes. Like, to me, I'll never have four children."
A [36:00]: "I feel like that's, like, overwhelming."

B counters by describing the inevitable shift in priorities and the deep, unconditional love that comes with parenting:

B [36:19]: "But, like, now it's like, not even something that I think about. So you become less selfish."
A [36:51]: "Oh, my God, I'm gonna be such an anxiety ball."

They emphasize the importance of mutual support between partners to maintain a healthy relationship while raising children:

A [29:25]: "I was a Latchkey kid."
B [28:52]: "Caleb's a very different dad than like."

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Concluding Insights

In wrapping up, hosts A and B reflect on the complexities of deciding to become parents amidst societal, financial, and personal challenges. They advocate for informed decision-making, emphasizing the importance of a supportive partner and community.

B [34:23]: "So I think you can't win either way. You can't also think that there is a lot of once upon a time there it took."
A [38:26]: "Maybe, you know, a year from now, if we're still doing this podcast, I'll be pregnant and I'll be able to see it from a completely different perspective."

The episode concludes on a hopeful note, acknowledging that while the journey to motherhood is fraught with uncertainties, the rewards of raising children and building a family are profound.

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Notable Quotes

• B [00:40]: "No, I actually, like, Caleb and I are nerdy and we were kind of thinking it was probably going to be a girl..."

• A [08:54]: "I feel like I'm running out of time, essentially. I know I am. I hate that feeling as women that we are on a biological clock."

• B [14:29]: "We are so isolated in our modern day life that we don't have the help that we once God."

• A [25:41]: "I'm scared to death. I'm scared to death. It terrifies me."

• B [36:19]: "But, like, now it's like, not even something that I think about. So you become less selfish."

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Final Thoughts

The Motherhood Mindset sets a relatable and honest tone for The Authentic Society podcast. By addressing the real-life challenges and societal pressures of motherhood, hosts A and B create a space for authentic conversations that resonate with listeners considering or navigating the path of parenthood.

Transcript

[A]

Are we good?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Welcome back, welcome back. This is officially our very first, like.

[B]

Podcast, not an intro episode.

[A]

Yes, we're excited because on today we're going to be talking about children, family, fertility planning, and navigating that biological clock. You're good. You're set on that biological clock. Don't worry about it. That ticking because you were pregnant with your fourth child.

[B]

I am. Fourth child. Three. Number three of a girl. So we have one boy, two girls, and this will be our third girl.

[A]

Yay. Were you disappointed it wasn't a boy?

[B]

No, I actually, like, Caleb and I are nerdy and we were kind of thinking it was probably going to be a girl because, like, most often, statistically, when you have two of one, you're going to have the third of another.

[A]

I've never had children, but I do see a lot of, like, gender disappointments, like a real thing.

[B]

So have you. Was very disappointed. Like, sobbing, crying, told us like the next morning that he was going to pray that God changed this to a boy. I was like, doesn't work that way, buddy. Sorry.

[A]

Cuz he wanted a brother.

[B]

He didn't want a brother. So, like, there was definitely gender disappointment there.

[A]

That's so, so sad.

[B]

It was really sad. Especially because he wants a brother. But him and Evie, I. I think it's, it's sweet and it's funny and it's sad. It's like, dude, you're like seven.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you really gonna play that hard? And when they're older, yeah, they'd be buddies. But I mean, my, the sibling I'm closest to now is my brother.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, because.

[A]

Okay, so let's go through the, the birth dates. Axel, seven E's five.

[B]

Joey is not yet two. This one was a surprise.

[A]

So which people don't know you said that.

[B]

So, like, Axel was a surprise. He was a birth control baby. So when people were like, yeah, birth control works. I'm like, false. Evie and Joey, we tried for. And like, Joey, we tried for, for a long time. And so then we were, we were getting ready to be done. Like, Caleb was talking to urologist and I was like, I'm pregnant.

[A]

Yeah. When you told me you weren't like, you're like, I'm pregnant. So monotone. And I was like, I didn't know.

[B]

How to like, I don't know, it's your fourth kid.

[A]

And I was like, congratulations, that's not.

[B]

How I did it. I was like, oh, yeah, this is my, like, I'm pregnant. And I like, think I pointed to my belly.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, I don't want to ask, but yeah. Yay.

[B]

I was like, not in a hurry. It was like seven. Such a shock and such a surprise. And people like, why didn't you tell me? And I'm like, I didn't. I don't know.

[A]

I have another day of the week now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Four kids. It's like, I feel like it's another walk in the park.

[B]

Yeah. And I feel like another trip. Joey just happened that. It's like, wow, I've just been pregnant for two years.

[A]

But their age gaps are like, Evie and Axel's age gap is going to be similar to this baby and Joe.

[B]

So Axel and Evie were two and a half years apart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Joey and Evie. Joey and this baby are literally going to be two years apart. Like two years in a month.

[A]

So they all have buddies.

[B]

Yes. Which will work out well.

[A]

You go to Disney World, they all have a buddy.

[B]

Yeah. And Axel and Eevee are like the best of buds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm glad that Joy will have.

[A]

He was always going to be closer with Eie anyway because of the age.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're in school together. They. Yeah. They're gonna have a lot of the same friends growing up, especially when they get to high school.

[B]

Yeah. That's why Hunter and I, it was the same thing. We had the same friends.

[A]

Like, how far apart are you in, Hunter?

[B]

18 months. Maybe less. Somewhere in there.

[A]

Insanity.

[B]

Yeah. I think actually. So Hunter is born in February and I'm in November. So what is that year? 15 months.

[A]

Yeah. When's your birthday?

[B]

November 3rd.

[A]

I knew it was coming up. Yeah, I knew it was coming up. Cuz you're going to be 29. So. Me and Maddie graduated the same year. High school?

[B]

2014.

[A]

But I just turned 28 in July.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm on the. I was on the baby end and like had just turned five going into kindergarten. And you were turning six in kindergarten.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've always been older.

[A]

Yeah. And I've always been younger. So I wonder which is better.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I think it's older.

[B]

I think for girls it doesn't really matter, but I notice a difference in boys. Yeah.

[A]

So are you done after this child?

[B]

Yes. What about you?

[A]

What about me? So I don't have any children and this is such a hot topic.

[B]

Do you get asked a lot?

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

Are you. Are you and Donna had kids?

[A]

We get asked an insane amount right now. The plan is we will have kids one day. I don't have a Timeline. And, you know, I feel like you get engaged or you're dating. Let's start with dating. You're dating. You've been dating for two or three years. When are you getting engaged?

[B]

Yeah, when are you getting married?

[A]

When are you getting married? And then you get married. When are you having kids? And then you have a kid. You're gonna have a second.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, immediately I have a four. The third and the fourth doesn't happen as much. But, like, literally, like, two days after Axel was born, people, are you gonna have another baby? I'm like, I don't know.

[A]

But people are never satisfied because if you say you're one and done, people are like, oh, my gosh, you should give them siblings.

[B]

And it's like, I think you can't win. I don't think you can win this. So, funny enough, Hunter and I were talking about this yesterday. My brother and. Because he was telling me that he was reading this article in the Wall Street Journal about how we're, like, on the brink of a civilization collapse because we don't have enough babies being born. And I was like, you know what's crazy is, like, I got so much shit for having a fourth baby.

[A]

Like, yeah, well, you're telling me about that.

[B]

It's like, people said, like, stuff. And even, like, a third baby is crazy because you go from two kids to a third kid, and it's like, oh, my gosh, your hands are so full. And it's like, when I had one kid, y'all were asking me when I was gonna have another kid. Like, calm down.

[A]

But a lot of people have fourth children.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

I. I follow a lot of people. Like I was telling you, I follow a lot of people on, like, influencers and bloggers and stuff that have three to four children. Like, I think that's very in the norm.

[B]

I think two is. And I think three is kind of like, wow, you're in a lot. Bloggers and influencers are not the norm.

[A]

No, four to me.

[B]

Okay, so think about, like, your day to day when you go out and about. Do you think four is a lot?

[A]

Yes. Like, to me, I'll never have four children.

[B]

Okay, so how many do you want?

[A]

1.

[B]

1.

[A]

Honestly, like, I know. And Dylan. Dylan. My husband Dylan, smiling, disagrees so much. He would love, like, two or three. I am so hesitant about kids. It scares me.

[B]

Why is that?

[A]

I don't necessarily know. For one, I really love my life how it is.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I feel like my childhood, I was always in fight or Flight mode. And now, as an adult, I finally have a very, like, peaceful life where I get to come home and be with my dogs and my husband, and the attention's all on me, and I have a safe house. And really what I do every day is what Jamie wants to do. I mean, besides go to work and, you know, you have to do groceries and pay bills. But really, if I look at Dylan and say, let's go somewhere this weekend, we have that ability to do that. And I really like that. And it scares me to make a big. I feel like having a child, that first child, is the most massive change you can make. No. You disagree?

[B]

No, I think it is. But so, like, a couple of things. First off, the best thing about being the parent is you get to set the tone of the home. Like, we had our, like, Caleb, and my first. It was kind of like a turbulent. But now I look at my life, and you're. You had a turbulent life, childhood. You're not a turbulent person, and neither is Dylan. You both are pretty chill people. So you set the tone of the home.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right. You get kids who have, like, emotional dysregulation and stuff like that, but a lot of times, like, how you react is how they react, and.

[A]

Yeah. And for me, I always have wanted to put my marriage as number one and always taken the time to feel like our marriage. I feel like it gets better by the day. Feel like we always are learning and communicating better than we used to. And I think that's so important to do before you have kids. And realistically, we've only been married for two and a half years, and even though we've been together for almost seven years, I do feel like really learning your marriage sometimes.

[B]

I think your marriage is always evolving.

[A]

Yeah, but it's. I don't know you. You know, and then you build a home, and people ask, like, well, when are you gonna have kids? And I'm only 28. Dylan is 27. He's a year younger than me, so I don't feel like I'm running out of time, essentially. I know I am. I hate that feeling as women that we are on a biological clock.

[B]

I think that there is, yes, a biological clock, but there's. I think there's a lot of pressure. So society puts a lot of pressure on us to have kids or to not have kids. Right. There is a lot of. You can't win this game. So what do you. What does Jamie want to do?

[A]

I. When I've always pictured my life, I've always Seen me having children. So it will happen one day, God willing. I just don't know if it's going to happen within the next year or the next five years. I just don't know that answer yet. I'm hoping it comes to me. I pray about it a lot and I really do hope that it'll be like this aha moment, but I haven't had it yet. And I do feel like having a child is a huge decision and you have to be 100% in or you don't need to do it. Like, you don't give a little on a baby. No, you give it all on a baby.

[B]

But I'm gonna tell you, it changes when the baby comes. Like, you change no matter what. But the other thing is, I don't think anybody's all in when they start. Maybe they are, and I think some people are all in when they start trying to have a baby.

[A]

But.

[B]

But, like, our life and dynamic changed so much and like, who I was changed so much when I became a mom.

[A]

How old were you when you gave birth?

[B]

I was 21. Yeah, I was young.

[A]

So you've spent most of your adult life as a mom?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's insane for me to wrap my head around because I would have been an absolute one of a hell of a mother at 21 years old. Like, I look at myself at 21 and I was a child.

[B]

I think I lived so this. I get that a lot. And I'm like, I do think I was a child still. Like, I think I grew a lot. But, like, you grow up with your first. Have you ever heard that you grow up with your first second. Your first one, your second one, you know what you're doing. And your third one, what was that? And your third. So you, you grow up as your first child, your second one, you know what you're doing. And the third one you, like, grow old with or something like that. And I do think that there is some truth in that. Like, no matter what you're. You can't. Like, when people ask me like, what's your best advice for a new mom? I'm like, I don't know. Because you literally don't know.

[A]

No, you don't sleep, you don't eat.

[B]

I think that is a myth.

[A]

You don't sleep, you don't eat.

[B]

That is amazing.

[A]

Okay, this is a really good topic I want to bring up because this is going around on Tick Tock.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I know you're not in Tick Tock, but it was this mother that she showed at the end of the day how many diapers she went and picked up around the house. Like, she would just like, change the baby's diaper and, like, leave one, like, on, like, whatever she was doing because she had a newborn baby and like a one year old. And like, she was like, let's see how many diapers, like, they were changed diapers and they were wrapped up and people like, annihilated her on, like, not throwing away her diapers as soon as she changed them. And then on the other side of it, there's been like a whole mom group that's come and, like, rally behind her and they're like, my 17 diapers was me barely being able to get out of bed because I struggle with a postpartum. Or like, 17 diapers is at least 17. Change diapers. Like, you just can't criticize a mom because at least her baby's diapers are changed kind of thing. I just think that.

[B]

Do you think that. Here's the thing is people are always going to hate you. Sorry. That's the truth.

[A]

The truth is.

[B]

But, like, there will always be mean people. There will always be mean people.

[A]

People are so tough on moms, though.

[B]

But, like, why don't you.

[A]

I feel like you. When you get attacked on social media for whatever it is, do you get a tag more on your character or for who you are as a mom? I.

[B]

When it. For our first little while is who I was as a mom. But here's the thing. It's like, I know I'm a good mom.

[A]

Yeah, you are.

[B]

And like, so what do you. You're attacking something that I'm just like, okay, like, whatever, you don't know me.

[A]

Yeah, that's so. That's true.

[B]

And I think we. We get so wrapped up in, like, what society thinks that it's. I think first off, I think that there is a really hard. There is a shift when you become a mom from maidenhood to motherhood, and there's no room for motherhood. You're supposed to bounce back. But I think there is becoming more and more space. I do see that shift in the last seven years. When I first became a mom, it was like, I was like, I had to have a balanced back body. And it's like, no, I have a real body. Like, I have a mom body.

[A]

God, that needs to be something. We really need more and more space for it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Well, going back to the article that your brother told you about, why do you think people are having less children?

[B]

Because I Think society tells us how hard it is.

[A]

A B. I think your parents stopped procreating.

[B]

What?

[A]

Okay. I said you're.

[B]

I don't know that you need to have as many kids as my parents. I love all your parents.

[A]

Was keeping the human race alive first strong one.

[B]

But like I think that there's a lot you can't win either way. You can't also think that there is a lot of once upon a time there it took. It takes a village. We are so isolated in our modern day life that we don't have the help that we once God.

[A]

Me and my friend were just talking about this the other day.

[B]

Like we used to have other mom. Like once upon a time it was like moms all just like you raised the whole neighborhood, had kids and the whole neighborhood.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like kept an eye out. So like I live in a neighborhood where there's a couple moms and like we text each other all the time and our kids are running up and down playing. We have cameras and the houses in between. They're retired people. They're watching the kids like not that we're not watching but like they're making sure. So my axle rides his bike and they'll ride across their yards to each other's yard so that they're not riding in the road and they don't care. So I do believe that it takes a village.

[A]

Oh it absolutely does. And. And there's not my mom's best friend who ended up turning into my godmother. She met her when my, my sister and her oldest, well her middle child were in like a mommy day out playgroup and they met and they became best friends and she was such an insane essential part of my life growing up. Like I still talk to her like she, she ended up being my godmother, like and they met. She, she. Neither of them were really from here when they first, you know, came and you know, we were with them all the time because she was a stay at home mom and my mom worked night shift in the ER and she helped pick us up from school. She. We were always over there.

[B]

So I think that's important. Like I have friends that like are that way now.

[A]

You gotta help each other out. Yeah.

[B]

Well.

[A]

And like because my mom's parents weren't here and my dad's parents weren't here. So it's not like they had the grandparent factor, you know. And if you don't have the grandparent factor, which is you have helpful, supportive grandparents that live close by that are going to help you, who do you have, you know, sometimes you only have friends or the family you create for yourself. And I think a lot of people don't have that.

[B]

I think so. And I think that. So it's like, how do you change that?

[A]

Yeah. So for, I know, for me, since we live on, you know, what I call the compound, my sister and brother in law, they have two kids and they live across the street. And my, you know, my husband and I, we're always helping them and it's, we love it like, you know, we'll help get my niece from school or this or that. And they don't ever feel hesitant to ask and they shouldn't. I feel like mom guilt kind of stops you sometime from asking.

[B]

I was going to say there's a lot of like, I don't want to be an inconvenience or a right but.

[A]

And they shouldn't feel that way because we don't feel that way. And so you have to find a safe community too, where you don't feel.

[B]

You'Re becoming the burden.

[A]

Yeah, I think a lot of moms feel like they're the burden, but I.

[B]

Think that's also like community. Well, I think too like kids should be so it was like interesting when I moved to the south, it was like one of the first places that kids were allowed to be kids. Because in the west and people say Utah's this way and Utah is not this way. Kids should be seen, but not heard. And like you don't take your kids out in public very much. If you do, it's like you're so stressed the whole time that they're so noisy. Just like, oh, here, have an iPad. Like, just be quiet. And here everybody has kids, so everybody gets it. And so I feel different. Really?

[A]

Yeah. I feel like a lot of the old Southern Baptist way is to be seen and not heard.

[B]

Yeah. But who do you know who's now having kids that feels that way? Really?

[A]

Yeah, some people.

[B]

Maybe you just don't hang out in the same circles.

[A]

No. Well, they're not anybody that I would consider. I would never let them watch my children.

[B]

There's people that are obnoxious, but it's like I like people I hang out with or people I know or people I've met that have kids. They're very. Or they're like. So my mom always so sorry I'm kicking your feet. My mom tells a story about riding in the airport, like airplane from Raleigh to wherever. So like I think she was Phoenix to Raleigh and she was coming to see us. And she said it's always interesting because the flights to Raleigh always or from Raleigh always have kids. And she flies a lot. And she said they always have kids and everybody around them has had kids. So one time this kid was kicking the seat, and mom kept getting like, stop kicking the seat. And like, she apologized to the guy when they were deep boarding the plane, and she was like, I'm so sorry. And he's like, oh, no, it's fine. I felt like I was driving with my grandkid in the backseat the whole time. Like, they. They get it, you know? Or one time we went out to eat and ax was little and he was playing peekaboo with the guy on the other side of us, and I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. It was like right after we moved here, he's like, oh, I have grandkids. I love this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you see a lot more of that here and when you first.

[A]

Moved here, you had no other family, no friends, no family, and you essentially, none of your family lives here. So how did you find that community?

[B]

I said yes to everything. Somebody would invite me. Or like, Axel started preschool and like, any of the moms that were like, hey, do you want to do a play date? I. Unless, like, my kid was sick or something, like. Or I was sick because as I was pregnant, I was like, yeah. And. Or I would take opportunities. There's like mom groups on Facebook. There's almost always a mom group on Facebook and they do sometimes meetups or like, I would go to the library and I would do like the read along hours. And after you go to so many of those things, you see a lot of the same faces because a lot of people that live in your area have the same age kids and they're doing the same things. And that's how I met people.

[A]

Yeah, that's. Well, they tell. I feel like that's a good answer for anybody that moves to say yes to everything.

[B]

Yeah. If you meet somebody at the store and you tell them that you're new here, like, talk to people first. People don't want to talk to people now?

[A]

No, I don't. I go to this grocery store and I keep my head down and I pray that I'm not going to see somebody I know.

[B]

Okay. Somebody you know is different. Actually, no, I've talked to people, but, like, that's how you build communities.

[A]

I hate it. I hate it. I will do a grocery store pickup before I go to the local food lion and see somebody I knew from High school. No, thank you.

[B]

Would you say hi to them if you knew them?

[A]

If we made eye contact, I feel like would have to. But, like, if you're gonna pretend I'm not here and I'm gonna pretend you're not here, we can pretend we're not here together. I hate it. But I also live where I grew up.

[B]

Yeah, you don't.

[A]

So I'm like.

[B]

I can't.

[A]

I hide around by every corner.

[B]

I can't say that I would have been the same had I stayed where I grew up or where my family was. Like, I think I had to learn how to be okay talking to new people.

[A]

Yeah, I'm. And I'm fine talking to somebody I don't know. It's like seeing somebody that, like, from your past, and you're like, this is awkward.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, wait till you run into an ex at a grocery store. It's not a fun time pass.

[B]

No, that's okay.

[A]

I just also feel like people are stopping having kids as much because it. Like, the selfish thing comes up. Like, people are like, is it selfish to have kids just because you want them?

[B]

No.

[A]

Or do you. Is it selfish to not have kids because you just know you're not fit for it? Or you. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, I think that it's. The answer is like, a resounding no, because I think. Well, first off, we're facing a civilization collapse. They're literally paying people this Wall Street Journal. I'm gonna have to pull it up. They were saying in it that they were like, European countries, because they're facing this right now because they had. The. The US Is not having that problem yet. But European countries are paying families to come, and they give them a stipend for their kids, and they give them, like, a minivan and, like, a yearly housing allowance from other countries. Other countries.

[A]

We're paying them.

[B]

No, no, no. We're not paying them. The countries are paying them because they need labor, they need workers.

[A]

Doesn't that kind of make you wonder and, like, kind of get. And this is the public school teacher in me. There's so many kids out there that aren't taken care of, and they're in foster care. Like, that pisses me off in the U.S. yeah, that pisses me off that, like, you know, we beg people to have these children, and then we. There's so many children that don't. They don't have.

[B]

So that's where I think when you're saying, is it selfish if I know I can't have kids, to not have kids. I'm like, I think it's a resounding.

[A]

Or is it selfish to have a child knowing that they're not going to grow up in a stable, healthy, wealthy environment? Because, you know, I'm not saying you need to be rich to have kids, but you also don't need to sit there, be like, you don't know where your next meal is coming from, and then say, I'm going to have a child on top of this.

[B]

Right? So I think that we're opening a can of worms, which we can go into.

[A]

I mean, we are.

[B]

Because, like, there's a lot of questions about it.

[A]

This is not how I feel. I think everybody should be entitled to have as many children as they want, whenever they want. I'm just saying I do think the younger generation below us is starting to see, like, I struggle with bills. The economy's not great right now. I can barely afford my rent sometimes. I don't know where my next meal is. Why would I have a kid on top of that?

[B]

So the US Is in a different place right now than these other countries. These other countries are already facing that collapse of they don't have enough workers, they don't have enough families. So you need the next workforce. And that's like, I don't think you should have children to raise the next workforce, because then you get kids who are emotionally unstable and all that stuff. But I do think that that is something that a lot of countries are thinking. So they're thinking about it from an economical standpoint. It's like a pragmatic. What we're thinking about is emotional. The US Is not facing that currently. But how many, like, our generation, millennials, they're not having kids. They're. You need a 2.2.3, like, reproduction rate to maintain workforce. So boomers are dying off, and then the Gen X did not reproduce at that rate, and millennials are not producing at that rate.

[A]

I think. Because I think a lot of reasons people aren't reproducing, especially millennials, is maybe they just can't afford it. And they also know, you know, just because I want a kid, maybe that's not always enough reason to have a kid. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

I think so. I think that there's also a lot of, like, scaring going on.

[A]

I'm scared to death. I'm scared to death. I'm not gonna lie to you. It terrifies me to have a child. It terrifies me.

[B]

Well, the housing market is not helping, but that's a whole nother thing. Because the housing market, there is always.

[A]

A fine line because people beg you to have kids and then if you have too money, they're like, why'd you have that many? And it's like Caleb and I are.

[B]

In a very different situation. First off, first off, Caleb and I are both Caleb's home every night. And like I get like, not every parent is home every night, but like, Caleb's a very involved dad.

[A]

He is. Yeah. Like, that's so important.

[B]

So involved.

[A]

Who you choose to have children with is the most important decision I think you make in your life.

[B]

Yeah, 100%.

[A]

I really do. I think when they say, you know, not not only who you're marrying is going to be your husband, but they're also going to be your future children's father.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's really important. And when I married my husband, that was one of the questions I asked for myself. Is he going to be a good father? And I knew it like 100%, yes. You know what I mean? Like, he's going to be hands on. It's not going to be mom doing all the work. Like, and I think that's important for people to go in when they get married is to really ask themselves that question. Would I trust him alone with my child? Like, would I. Is he going to be babysitting or is he just going to be being a parent?

[B]

And I think that we have. So it's interesting because I also see, I feel like in just like my. What is it when it's like just in my circle, what I see anecdotally, I see a lot millennial dads, way more involved than like our parents were.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So maybe it's like a generational thing.

[A]

I also think women are expecting more a little bit like, you know, not to say like, you know, us as women are like, you're just as capable too. Like, you know, if I'm going to work and working 40 hours a week and you're going to work, working 40 hours a week, why is mom doing most of the work? Like, we're both need to be doing the work because we're in where we're not really. The millennials are less on the traditional side where women stay home as much they do, but not as much as they did back in the day. And that's why mom did all the work. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Well, even because Gen X worked a ton too. And like they were working moms, they were latchkey kids.

[A]

I was a Latchkey kid.

[B]

But. Well, like, so I'm a stay at home mom now, but Caleb is not somebody who comes home and expects me to have, like, dinner ready or like the laundry done, for crying out loud. Caleb does laundry.

[A]

You're technically a stay at home mom, but you're not. You do a lot of other.

[B]

I work. You work. I work from home.

[A]

From home.

[B]

I work.

[A]

There's a difference. Like, it's not like you don't. You have. You have a lot of other things going on.

[B]

Yeah, but like, a lot.

[A]

And a lot of stay at home moms do. But you are working.

[B]

Like, you are bringing income. Income in. That's fair. And I'm like, launching this farm and stuff. But there. Caleb's a very different dad than like.

[A]

Yeah, well, in support of you, you also. Don't you want that for your kids? You want them to feel equally as safe and comfortable with mom as they are dad. You want them to. You know, if mom can't make it to something, Dad's going like you. I think it really is important to have two parents in the home because it just. It makes it easier.

[B]

At least two parents involved.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

At least two parents involved. So, like, I have friends who are divorced, but they're.

[A]

They're good co parents.

[B]

They're great co parents.

[A]

Yeah. And I've also had to ask myself that too. When I got married, like, if me and Dylan ever got divorced, would I be okay? I mean, no mom would ever be okay having to give 50% off the time with their children, because that's heartbreaking. But could I send my child off 50% of the time with Dylan? Even if we could it make a marriage and still feel comfortable. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I go out of town and people are like, who's. Who's staying home? And I'm like, caleb, Caleb. Like, oh, you, like, you're okay with that?

[A]

Their father.

[B]

Yeah. So I think that that makes a big difference on if you're gonna have kids.

[A]

Who's babysitting the kids today? Your husband? No, he's just with them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's keeping with them.

[B]

Yeah. What do you mean?

[A]

I. Yeah, it's like, I know that if I was single right now and not in a good relationship, kids wouldn't even be on a topic on my mind because I just couldn't. I. For me, the single moms out there that do it are like the superwomen of life. Because I just couldn't even fathom not having help.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And doing it completely by yourself and not having A husband that helps.

[B]

There's like dynamics though. Like, if you read like dynamics of like mothers who have single children, they're. They like have dynamics for each kid. Like how the kids grow up.

[A]

The oldest is usually the most responsible.

[B]

Parentified.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And I do think the more children, like if you do and I mean your situation is different, but do you feel like because there was so many children and you were one of the oldest that you helped a lot with the younger kids.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And that is that. Change your child.

[B]

I remember changing diapers at 6 and I don't, like, maybe it's a fault of mine, but I don't trust Ax. First off, it's not Axel's responsibility and it was my. Like, I didn't. I did it then when I was a kid because of our living situation, my mom worked full time. She was in school full time. When Savannah and Gabe were born, my mom left my dad for a period of time and like we lived with my grandma. So, like there was a lot of helping that I did. But like where Caleb and I are both home and we have family that's always here. It's not Axel's responsibility to have to change a diaper. No, but I don't trust him to change a diaper either. Like I. He asked if he could and I was like, probably not. Just because first off, you want to make sure it gets fully clean. Like if you're changing a diaper, you want to make sure the bum gets fully clean. But no, that's like he's seven. But I was changing diapers at.

[A]

A lot of seven year olds don't know how to wipe themselves properly even. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. Seriously.

[A]

I mean, do you know what I mean?

[B]

Like, no, really. So, like. But I was changing diapers and at 6 and 7 and I was like crazy making dinner at like 7 and 8, 9. And Logan was the same way. So I think there was a lot of parentification due to survival. It was necessity. And I don't fault my mom for that. I think she was just trying to survive. Right. But I look at my kids now.

[A]

And you don't want that for them.

[B]

I don't want that for them. Sometimes I wonder if I'm doing them a disservice. Like just mowing over everything for them. Like they. Axel has responsibility, but it's not even close to what I had.

[A]

He shouldn't have adult response. I think a 7 year old shouldn't have adult. I think having age appropriate responsibility on their age.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you had adult responsibilities at a child's age? I think seven year olds.

[B]

He doesn't quite have a seven year old responsibility. Like he feeds the chickens and it's real rough.

[A]

Yee haw.

[B]

Listen, and his.

[A]

I wouldn't want to go out there when it's cold feeding no chicken.

[B]

So that's like, I know 7 year olds who will unload and load the dishwasher. I'm like, wow, I'm really slacking.

[A]

Well, you know, I think it just.

[B]

Would you let a seven year old unload and load your dishwasher?

[A]

How would they reach high? They gotta have to get a store.

[B]

Okay. I don't know.

[A]

Like I did. I was unloading the dishwasher at seven years old. But that was because that was kind of survival too. Like my parents worked and like that wasn't like a, oh, you're gonna get rewarded if you do. Yeah, but so it's like also at the same time, I don't know if I necessarily would be making my 7 year old unload and load the dishwasher either. But again, I'm not a mom, so I can't speak for that. But I think age appropriate responsibilities is very important for children. But I don't think they should ever have adult responsibilities.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[A]

Which is like making sure diapers changed and making sure your siblings are filled. That's an adult responsibility.

[B]

Yeah. And I think, well, it's. I always tell people before they have kids, like, so like a family members will ask like, what's like the biggest advice that you could give me. I'm like, you should read parenting books.

[A]

Should I?

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

When I, when I get pregnant, all you're gonna send me some, right?

[B]

Oh yeah. I have like a list of my favorites that I always tell people to read because I didn't read any until Axel was like two or three and I was like, holy. And that's when I also started to realize like my childhood was not normal.

[A]

You don't say.

[B]

But I, But I think that like when you read that it kind of a gives you, it's like therapeutic, kind of gives you coping mechanisms for your own like dysfunction. And when. And then you also see like, this is normal behavior. This is not normal behavior.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I also have a pediatrician that I call all the freaking time.

[A]

Yeah, good pediatrician. But do you, you feel like maybe that's why this pregnancy isn't like for you. You're like, it's a walk in the park because you just, you know what you're doing. Now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, this is your fourth time around. You are way more prepared. You just. You know what to expect. And so if you can really think, what was the thing that you. About having children, like, when you had Axel that just completely. No one prepared you for all of it, really.

[B]

I. First off, we're really selfish when we don't have kids. And, like, that is, like, the truth of the matter. I don't think it's necessarily to die. We're selfish when we have. We don't have kids. I don't think it's a bad thing. I just don't think you realize, like.

[A]

Oh, I know I'm selfish, but, like.

[B]

I don't think you, like, absolutely. But I think, you know you're selfish. But I don't think, like, I knew I was selfish, but I didn't realize, like, how much my world was me, me, me, me, me.

[A]

Oh, I know mine is, and I like it that way. And that's why I'm scared to have children.

[B]

Okay. So, like, when, like, I don't like changing bumps, and if I'm like bums.

[A]

I love that you call them bums.

[B]

But, like, now it's like, not even something that I think about. So you become less selfish. Most people. I'm not blanket statementing that before somebody comes after me, people are going to come after us.

[A]

In this podcast, I already feel I've said, like, 10 things that are. People are going to take the wrong way. And honestly, you have told me you just can't care.

[B]

Yeah, you can't care. But, like, I. You don't even think about it. Like, you're just like, this person. This thing is so important to me, and, like, I love it so much. Think about how much you love your dogs.

[A]

Okay. It's like time die for my dog.

[B]

20 when you have a kid.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know if I can handle that kind of love. I feel like that's, like, overwhelming.

[B]

Well, that's like. It's like, that's why motherhood changes you so much.

[A]

Oh, my God, I'm gonna be such an anxiety ball.

[B]

Yeah, you do. Like, there's this interesting doctor that I. She's very controversial, but she read. She wrote a book called. I think it's called Hannah's Children. And her name is, like, Dr. Laura. I remember her last name. And she's an economist, and she had eight children. And I was just listening to her perspective, and she said it's interesting because most people stop having kids at 2, and they're just this anxiety Ball. Because you're still learning how to parent when you have two kids and there's. But by the time three comes around, it's like, I remember laying awake at night and like, Axel had a speech delay and I was so stressed about it. And Joey's a little bit delayed in her speech, but it's like, not a thing. It doesn't worry me because it's like, oh, I know how to do this. So, like, if this baby has something like that, it's like, oh, I know what I'm doing. Like, oh, I know how to do this. So you become more confident as you go. And also having friends who have, like, had kids too, you're like, oh, no, that's normal, that's fine. Like, oh, I don't know. You could talk to your pediatrician. I love pediatrician. I'll call and be like, this thing happened and I'll like explain it to them. And they're like, no, that's fine. They're okay.

[A]

Well, so, yeah, get a good pediatrician.

[B]

Anyway. I don't think there's ever a right time to have kids and I don't think you're ever ready. But I'm going to tell you, once you have the kid, it's like you don't, like, you don't even care, you know?

[A]

So that might change. Like when I said one and done, that completely could change. I could have one and want five. You know what I mean? For right now.

[B]

Slow down there. I'm just kidding. For right now you want one?

[A]

Yeah. Because I feel like, why even set the goal that you're going to have more than one and get, get through the one first. And I'm trying to get to the one first, but. Yeah, well, maybe, maybe, you know, a year from now, if we're still doing this podcast, I'll be pregnant and I'll be able to see it from a completely different perspective.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it, it gets, it gets easier and it gets like, there is, like, sacrifices, but also like, I will be done. I will have raised kids and so far, good ones. And I'll be like 45. And then it's like, and then I get to be independent if I want or I get to be a very hands on grandma.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm sure my kids will wait probably longer than I did.

[A]

I will be 45, going to preschool.

[B]

We would love to hear what you like, did you wait to have kids or did you have kids right away? And like, what is your opinion on that?

[A]

Yeah. And if you have more than one kid, which kid do you think was.

[B]

Do you think that you gain confidence? I feel like we gain confidence.

[A]

Or do. Yeah. Do you feel like if you have one, two is a lot and four is nothing, or do you feel like you struggled to really have your first, and then after you had your first, you're like, oh, I got this. Yeah, it's nothing. I know people are going to be like, it's a love that you can't describe. And I completely agree with that. But I just. How do you get over that scared hump to just pull the trigger?

[B]

Shoot or shoot me.

[A]

Let me know. Bye.