A (1:55)

I know you. Yeah.

B (1:56)

That's what I love about Dubai. Like it's a small, big city. You know, you.

A (2:00)

Yes.

B (2:00)

Always re. Cross paths of people. So it's. It's lovely to connect with you again.

A (2:03)

Thank you.

B (2:04)

Thanks. I think we're a great place to start. Our conversation today is just understanding a little bit about how you've gotten to where you are today and what I mean by that is, I've spoken to a lot of psychologists before and I find what I find personally really interesting is they always niche into something along the way. You know, psychology is quite a broad topic and there are many different specific niches you can go down. And happiness and positive psychology has been an avenue that you've directed your attention to. So how did you pick or decide that?

A (2:35)

Yeah, that's a good question. So I worked in government health care, mental health care, for many years, and in seeing clients on a daily basis with pretty big issues. So whether it was alcohol and drug abuse, domestic violence, suicide, I mean, the poverty, intergenerational violence, there was a lot of all of that. And at the same time, I was doing my doctorate degree and I saw this little tiny course in positive psychology, and I thought, oh, that's an easy a. Let's do it right. Something easy, but also something a little bit less heavy. So I was expecting that it wouldn't be very much at all, a little bit of a fluff. But actually what I discovered is there's a lot of weight and evidence towards this growing, certainly at the time, this was about 20 years ago, this growing field in positive psychology and where things really got interesting. So again, I was working in mental health at the time, so I approached my director and said, look, we do a lot of these depression groups. Sadly, it's kind of what we call them, as well as anxiety eating disorders. So all of these groups, could we pitch or trial, if you will, a happiness group. And she kind of went, happiness and mental health, I'm not tell. Didn't want to say no right away, but tell me the rainbow color wheel. Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, hey, but hear me out. And then of course, you know, looked at all the different interventions, the different evidence, efficacy rates, how that would look. And she's like, okay, let's do it. So I did. And what I discovered in that very first group was, I don't want to say nothing short of a miracle, but it was life changing for many people. So here we'd been doing groups based on cognitive behavioral therapy, which is considered the gold standard for depression. It works if you only want to get rid of depression. But now we were going a step further, not just giving people the tools to reduce depression, but giving people the tools to create a meaningful and worthwhile life. And what a lot of people in the group said was, what took you so long? Like, this is what we've been wanting, and all you've been teaching us is how to be less Miserable. So that was really profound. And what I realized is that patients, clients like the idea, that's what they want in the end. People want the keys, the tools, practical strategies to make life better, not just less miserable. And then that is really where it started. So I continued to do the groups, we studied a lot of those groups to look at what is the outcome, do the gains hold over time, which they do, how could we improve them, what else, you know, and it just kind of went from there. And that's where positive psychology and really the focus on improving life wave really took off.

B (5:32)

Amazing. And just assume I know nothing about positive psychology. What is that when you say that term? What does it refer to?

A (5:40)

Yeah, so I think it's easiest to describe it by thinking about what is mainstream psychology. So mainstream psychology generally we are trying to make life less bad. So we focus on depression, anxiety, major mental health issues. Could be schizophrenia, personality disorders, whatever. So all that side of life that makes life difficult, that makes life, you know, that gives us struggle. Positive psychology is, let's use the science, the same rigor and let's develop new measures, new strategies, new interventions, new theoretical models, but designed to improve life. So here we're looking at how do we increase positive emotional experiences, how do we increase meaning, purpose, engagement, how do we bring out the best in people rather than just fix problems? So in that sense it's how do we make life worthwhile from a scientific perspective? But also how do we make positive psychology, a branch of psychology, apply to everybody? So you don't need to qualify with a problem. It can help everyone.

B (6:49)

That's interesting because a lot of those things like purpose and meaning, they can feel quite spiritual, that can feel quite generic. But I know your take on things is quite data driven, science based facts,

A (7:01)

practical, do this, do that.

B (7:02)

Yes. And I've read your book cover to cover, which it's quite short and practical, very digestible. I'll put a link to it in the show notes so people can check it out. But I do want to dive into some of those aspects today. Just before we do dive into some of those concepts, can you walk us through what you think has been the most profound study, research or finding in your time looking at positive psychology and really how it's changed your understanding of it?

A (7:29)

Oh gosh. So we have like 25 years of study now in positive psychology, but even before that we had a little bit, it just wasn't as scientifically driven. But I think for me the biggest piece and it's really one of the differentiators of positive psychology relative to mainstream psychology. And it's this notion that the past does not define us, but actually the future is what pulls us forward. So mainstream psychology, again, you need a problem for us to help you. And I remember even in years past, before I even knew about positive psychology, and now I'd like to apologize for all these people I ever saw. You know, like, people would come in and they're like, no, I'm fine. I just want to be better. And I'm like, well, we don't do that. Like, come back when you have a problem. I don't know how to help you. Whereas today we can. And the simple question is, who do you want to become? How do you want today to be different? So we have strategies and skills that people can use now. You don't have to overhaul your whole personality. You don't have to fix the past. You don't even need to focus on it that much. It's just, let's start from today, move forward, because life is short and the clock is ticking. So I think it's really just this notion of you don't need to focus on the past to have a better present and an even better future.

B (8:50)

This is really interesting because I think a lot of people listening, myself included. Right. Could very well look at our current situation and feel held back by our past. So in light of what you've just shared, what do you want to say to those people to kind of release them from that notion or help them move forward into maybe applying some of the things we're going to. About to speak about today?

A (9:12)

Yeah, and. And look, it's. It's not so much ignore the past. So we want to look at if it is impacting you today. Let's deal with how it's impacting today, but let's also build a better life today so that the past doesn't take up so much space. And often this is the problem with focusing on the past is that it takes up, it consumes us, and that becomes the entire experience at the expense of today's experience. So, in fact, you're busy dealing with the past, trying to make sense of A, B, C and all of this. But who's living your life today? Actually, no one. So you're just kind of going through the motions, but also, are you getting ready for your future? Are you preparing for that? Are you building up to it? You're still in the past. So again, if it's impacting you today, let's look at that. But let's also Build the rest and that you know again, anything will expand to the size you give it. Everyone knows that expression and that includes the narratives that we tell ourselves as well.

B (10:16)

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A (12:00)

So again, I just want to also for listeners to know, I don't make up this stuff. So this is the research based from Dr. Corey Keyes, so you can go look it up. Of course it's a 98 page research article. But anyway, fill your boots. And what he's found again is, you know, mainstream psychology. We kind of focus on if you think about a continuum the people at this side of the continuum. Continuum that experience lots of negative emotions. So it could be depression, anxiety, you know, just stuff that makes life look. And if we look at rates of mental health. So again, we talk about mental health all the time, but the prevalence is actually quite small. So in the UAE, it's 14%. And it's not to say that it's not important. It's costly and it deserves our attention and we have a lot of resources for it. But what that means is the other 86%, what do they get? Nothing. Again, we're the come back when you have a problem. Right. But when you come back with a problem, we've wasted lots of time and we've missed lots of intervention points. So that is, you know, kind of the this side of the continuum. In the middle, we have a huge group and we call these languishing. So languishing is just kind of. Actually, it's where most of us are. And for a long time I was languishing as well, where you just kind of like, Is this it? Yep.

B (13:22)

Would this be like your autopilot?

A (13:24)

Yeah, you're just going through the motions. You go to work, hang out with your friends, have the same conversations, eat the same salad, turkey, chicken sandwich. It's okay, but it's just. Okay. So you're not. It's not bad. You're not sad. You're not glad either. Right. So you're just kind of there, you know, Groundhog Day. Same, same. And then at the very top end, we have these people, I like to call them magical unicorns. These are, you know, people who are flourishing. These are people who experience lots of positive emotions. They tend to have really good relationships. They find their life meaningful. They tend to engage in work that is meaningful. They tend to be. They tend to have states of what we call vitality. So good physical health, but it's not just good physical health, but they're happy and they actually live that life as well. So they're not just spectating, watching life go by, but they're full participants in it. And, and that's really where we want to push people into this flourishing end. And. But, but psychology, the problem with mainstream psychology is it only tackles here. So again, unless you've got a problem, it's really difficult to help you. So positive psychology covers this side. Languishing and flourishing. There's something for everybody because the goal is to improve life, experience more positive emotions, make it more meaningful, deepen those relationships, get engaged and live it. Right. So I, you know, When I ask people to think about where they might be on that continuum, I ask them to think about, you know, think of a thermometer. So in the middle you've got the zero, it's not hot, not cold, it's neutral, just neutral. Okay. And then the negatives, now we're getting into, you know, maybe it applies more to Canada in the freezing cold and then in the too hot. But where do you feel you are at? And most people can, can describe that. So every day is miserable, where every day is just kind of there or oh my gosh, I can't wait to go to sleep because tomorrow I have this on, right? So people are different, different stages. Now here's what's interesting. People who are languishing, we tend to think that, oh, okay, life's boring, but whatever, you know, and sometimes grandmothers will sometimes say this, but that's just the way it is. No, it's not. So when you're languishing, actually you are at risk of sliding into depression. So if you stay at languishing for too long, the odds ratio of becoming depressed over a ten year period, again, this is Corey Key's research is 86. It's almost guaranteed. So being bored with life, not living to your full capacity, not experiencing those positive emotions, not having a sense of meaning and purpose, not having great relationships that challenge you and that bring out the best in you, not being engaged, not using your character strengths, these, this is actually a risk factor for living a worse life. And that's a big difference. Again, mainstream psychology, what's your problem? Positive psychology, bored. We need to pay attention to that because we know which way it's going. So boredom is a risk factor and we don't take it seriously enough.

B (16:49)

It's interesting. It's like a proactive almost approach, right to psychology, traditional psychology, in the way, in the way you've explained it. Question for you. I found personally in my own life, as I'm pushing myself out of my comfort zone, I'm setting new goals, I'm reaching new things, I'm experiencing new things. There is that point where you're flourishing, you got so many positive emotions, you've got momentum. But then it kind of feels like life balances out and it feels kind of neutral, right? Things normalize. This is now my new reality until I then kind of set a new bar. Is it normal then to kind of oscillate between flourishing and languishing? Or is it realistic to be flourishing every day where you've got, you know, you hear people Say you want a job where you can spring, you know, wake up with a spring in your step. Like, is that realistic for people to be striving for? Or is languishing sometimes. Okay, am I confusing concepts here? Like, walk me through?

A (17:42)

No. So languishing. I always think of it as a sign. So the minute you're, like, getting bored again, that's not terrible. That's actually good news because it means, wow, you have perfected that level of expertise, of mastery. Like, you've gotten that good at life. You move the standard here. Now this standard is getting boring. Great. So what are you going to do next? So we can think of it in that way. But there's also another concept in positive psychology, and it's called adaptation, and that's exactly what that is. And maybe the easiest way to think about it, you go to the gym, you know, the first couple times, you're like, let's do four kilos, something tiny. And then you're like, this is nothing. Now you move to six. And then after a while, you're like, this is nothing. You keep adapting, adapting, adapting. You have to keep changing that set point, because otherwise you stay stuck at 6, and it's boring. And then you just give up and quit because it's. It's dull. Life is the same way. So when you start getting bored, the same conversations, it's not challenging enough anymore. It doesn't mean it's time to quit. It means, what's next? Let's keep cranking up the. The. The. The. The challenge, if you will, and get even more and more out of life.

B (18:55)

I like that. It's like a sign, right? Cause I, you know, I can't ignore that experience in my own life, despite how proactive I am, you know, trying to be flourishing. It's not always the case, but I definitely can relate to that. It's. It's a sign or a signal to say, hey, you're ready. You're kind of ready for the next challenge. So for people listening who relate to that, they feel like they're in that languishing phase. They want to get more out of life. Where do they even start?

A (19:22)

Yeah, And I want to make one distinction. Distinction. It's. It doesn't mean you have to achieve more necessarily, because that can get you on another type of dangerous treadmill. Yeah, I must get more. I must get more. And then you're just never happy with anything because you immediately jump to the next step, and you're not savoring, you're not enjoying. Like, look at Me? Look what I just did. You've already moved on, so we need to be careful of that. But sometimes you can introduce a variety in different ways. So think about it. Just like in a relationship, if you always have the same conversation, you're soon going to start to find your partner a little bit dull. Now, that doesn't mean your partner is dull. That means you need to start coming up with different topics, have different conversations. Instead of going to the same pizza shop every weekend, maybe you're going to go to a different restaurant, maybe you're going to hang out with different friends, start doing new activities. So we can introduce variety. You can also try just to go for the next goal. You can introduce variety in you. So in terms of character, strengths, so maybe your strength is you're very creative, Great, do that. Then you might start finding that a little bit boring. Maybe a different strength is honesty, integrity, teamwork. So now instead of using creativity, you're going to focus more on people. And how do we deepen relationships? So there's lots of different ways that we can mix things up a little bit so that life continues to give and we don't get stagnant or hit those flat adaptation points and then, and then we feel we're bored.

B (21:04)

What motivates you to live a long, healthy life? For me, it's to make sure I'm healthy and around for my kids and hopefully grandkids as long as possible, and also to be able to be active and independent when I'm older. But I've never really thought about longevity as being personalized. It kind of just feels like there's a lot of generic advice and best practice tips to follow. That's until a friend of mine told me about Kinson. Kinson is the first telemedicine platform to securely bring together medical records from participating healthcare systems. And it works by combining all these records, your lab, wearable and lifestyle data, all in one place. To give you the full picture, you basically start by taking a quiz which includes your longevity goals. Then it asks you about your health history, followed by asking what's worked for you in the past and not. And finally you get an actual personalized plan to support your longevity goals. I really love that it actually won't recommend you any products until it has the full picture. So it really is this holistic approach to health. The platform comes with 24.7 messaging to a licensed provider, the ability to connect all your wearable data like your Apple Watch, Oura Rings, etc. You can order lab testing through the platform and you know the experience is guided by real healthcare providers all from the comfort of your home with Kinson world class care and cutting edge treatments are now accessible to all our US based listeners. Head to kinson.com balancetheory to take a free quiz and discover solutions guided by healthcare professionals tailored to your unique biology. That's K-I-N-S-Y-N.com balance theory and don't forget to use the code BALANCETHEORY at checkout to save 20% off your first subscription order. What's some research in your experience that talks to this point about what actually works in terms of making change, about moving from languishing to flourishing.

A (22:45)

So we have what's called positive psychology interventions. So in short PPIs and there's a huge body of research and really for the last 20 years we've been testing out these strategies and there's different categories. Sorry. So some of these are focused on other people for people who are more relational. Others are more focused on positive emotional experiences. Others might be focused more on meaning and purpose. So there's a whole range. In fact the whole book covers, I don't know however many that there are in there, but there's about almost 60 or 70 in existence today. So any of these will work. I think what's most important is for people to try them out and to find what works for them. So I don't want to be the person saying you must do ABC because ABC might not work for you, but A will work for that person. And actually never mind, D and E will work for you. Right? So it's really about experiment. Notice when you start feeling lighter or when you start feeling more softer and kinder towards people, or when you start kind of like, wow, things are making sense. Things are starting to click and fall into place. I feel more congruent between my values and what I do. But it comes down to notice what kind of a life do you want to build and that will help you kind of choose. What are these different interventions and activities that could help you get there?

B (24:14)

Interesting. Is this the same or different to the PERMA model on the five routes you take?

A (24:21)

So perma model. So there's many different well being models. I use PERMA because it's easy, it's intuitive, but it's not necessarily the one with the most evidence. So again, if I'm talking to you from a research perspective, I would use a different model. More from a practice perspective then perma could be more interesting. So perma and many other models really just Tries to categorize ways in which we can think about what is well being and how do we get there. So PERMA is really just an acronym. P, E, R, M, A. These are five different routes that you can select. There's one or two that I like, and the other I don't bother because it doesn't fit for me. But the first is positive emotional experiences. So these might be things like focusing on optimism, joy, curiosity, inspiration. So it's more around our emotions. The E is around engagement. So this is what you do. So people, it's basically how to be a participant in your life and not a spectator. So it could be taking part in sports, it could be goal activities, it could be starting that side. Hustle, entrepreneur, it doesn't matter. It's get in there and do stuff. The R is relationships. And relationships can be friends and family, of course, kids, partners, but also neighborhoods, communities, colleagues. Any relationship fits the bill. So really thinking about social capital, The M is meaning. Meaning, purpose. And then A. This is the one that has the least amount of evidence, but it's really around accomplishment, accomplishments. So the outcome really of the first four.

B (26:08)

Interesting. This idea of meaning and purpose is one I just wanted to dive deeper on because I've done a few episodes on it in the past, and I find people always drawn to this concept of finding their meaning and finding their purpose. In light of the fact that you're quite practical when it comes to some of these big topics, I'd love to hear your thoughts or what the research is saying about that, because often it feels very daunting. You can feel really lost in the quest of finding this one thing in your life. If it is one thing, you know, if. If that is a route that people want to take, if that's something they're working on. How does one find meaning and purpose? Yep.

A (26:43)

And I'm smiling just because I've had this conversation so many times. Often with clients, they're like, I read a book. What's the meaning of my life? I'm like, oh boy, don't let's not complicate things. If you feel something is important, that means it's meaningful. Let's keep it easy. So you're raising a child. Is that important?

B (27:04)

Extremely.

A (27:05)

That's meaningful. The end. That's it. That's what meaning is. So meaning is why we do what we do. It's the reason we give ourselves for doing something. Meaning is a. Is a feeling, actually, and. And that's it. So I find, you know, sometimes people kind of get Tripped up of what is the meaning of my life? It doesn't need to be that big or that grand. You don't even need to be able to put it into words. If you just feel something is important, it matters, you need to do this, then it's meaningful. But if you really, really, really must, okay, here's one activity that you could do is really kind of thinking about, you know, does what I do match what I say matters? And it's really just doing a bit of a time map. So where do you spend your time? So people will often say, you know, health really matters to me. Okay, when's the last time you were at the gym? Ah. Ah. So meaning is something, It's a value. It's something we say is important. But if you're not matching it with behavior, these are just words. So meaning is something we do and that we can explain. We can give it an explanation. I do this because this value matters to me. That is meaning. So sometimes people get really good on the values, but it's not translated into behavior. And when we can make these two congruent, we know what we do and why we do it. That in itself is a sense of well being. It sort of makes us feel good because life makes sense.

B (28:38)

I love how practical that is. And I actually unrelated actually to meaning and purpose. I've spoken about doing a bit of a time audit in light of what are your priorities and are they being prioritized very simply? And I think that's such an important way to get visibility over how you're actually spending your time and kind of putting your money where your mouth is when it comes to how you're living your life. For people who are already sitting on their hands thinking, oh gosh, that's me. Like I say, that's important, but I don't really make time for it. Are there any practical things that you've coached people on that that can help them, I guess, create space, you know, especially for people who feel they don't have that much control over their time, or maybe their environment at the moment is not conducive to creating a life they want. They feel a bit stuck, right? Maybe they're in that languishing. Any practical tips on things they can do to start moving things around?

A (29:28)

Calculate approximately when you think you're going to die. Why not? It works remarkably well. So like the Japanese do this. It's thinking about, what do you want people to say about you at your funeral? What's the, what's your eulogy gonna read? And. And if you died tomorrow, would you be happy with your eulogy? Spent a lot of time on Instagram, didn't go to the gym. Yay. Okay, let's get the show on the road. Or literally count. So I think, okay, if I'm gonna die, like, let's say 85, and then I do the math backwards. My math isn't very good, but I actually calculated this once, and it came out to, like, 14, 20 some weeks left. And when you put it in that perspective, you're like, oh, my God, put the phone down. Let's start taking some action here. Right?

B (30:18)

Looking around.

A (30:19)

Looking around. Like, you do not have as much time as you think. So put an actual number on it. I find that can motivate people pretty quickly, because when you take out the time spent sleeping, you know, maybe your summer holidays, maybe time you're eventually going to need at the dentist, multiply by how many years you're going to live, like, you actually don't have a lot of time left. Is this how you want to spend your time, Time today? No, we'll get moving on it. So kind of using the reverse how much, you know, time left versus, you know, the other way you can start thinking about it is, do I want to say no to this? So often we will embark on these grand plans. Yes, I want this change in my life. I want to start this company, or side hustle, whatever it is. But. But then we just kind of get stuck along the way. We start languishing, and then we start thinking, maybe this wasn't a good idea. Okay, so then would you want to quit? Like, let's think about what that looks like. So if you quit tomorrow, how would you feel about that? Now? For some people, it's, oh, that'd be a relief. Okay, well, then there's your question. Like, it's okay to quit things as well. And then for other people, they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because if I quit, that person would get the contract and they know less than me, and I would feel awful. All right, well, then, giddy up, let's go. Right. So kind of, you know, instead of always looking at what's the reason for which I'm doing it, think about the flip side. What if I wasn't, and what if this ended tomorrow? And sometimes that can create a bit of a sense of urgency and kind of create that momentum or motivation that we're looking for.

B (32:01)

Interesting. With things like the meaning of life and purpose, like, that's quite individualistic. We have to Sit down and really reflect and think, what does that mean to me? But would you say with your work and your research, there are any habits, activities, pathways, or just things that people can add to their life that would 100% make them happier?

A (32:20)

Yeah. Get out more often.

B (32:23)

Like outside or out socially?

A (32:25)

Both. So I. I also combine, you know, research and positive psychology, but also looking at, you know, trend and what people are doing more and more of these days. And what we know is that people. We know what people are doing more and more of. And actually it's what people are doing less and less of. We spend more time alone today than we did even during COVID Wow. Yeah.

B (32:49)

Really?

A (32:50)

Yeah.

B (32:51)

Why?

A (32:52)

Because we kind of got comfortable there. But also everybody's living through social media, so we spend a lot of time online. You look at how we're using AI, the number one use is friendship.

B (33:07)

Really?

A (33:08)

Yeah. People tell their AIs everything. People are marrying their AIs, people are having relationships with their AIs. Like, it's quite alarming. And we're connecting less. The other issue is that the more time you connect with your AI is we negatively interpret our human relationships after. Because AI likes us all the time. Like, it's amazing.

B (33:32)

Validates us. Exactly.

A (33:34)

Whereas humans will say, no, no, I thought what you did there was wrong. And, you know, there will be negative feedback. So for me, it's about how do we reconnect people to the social fabric? How do we continue to build social capital? And I think it's around understanding what relationships do for us. So often people, it's almost like we've seen in some ways, like, relationships, like a little bit like a failure. I need people. It's not just about that. I mean, yes, we do. The more time you spend alone, the more time you spend with your thoughts. Generally, our mood goes down. People who spend a lot of time alone tend to rate what they do as less meaningful. There's less room for spontaneity and joy because it's just you sitting on your couch, eating popcorn and. But also, like, relationships do even more for us. So there's that notion of spontaneity. It's not just care, but they're the ones that are going to introduce you to somebody in another room. They're the ones that are going to show you different opportunities, that are going to push different sides of you to be different, to be at your best self in a way that maybe you couldn't do by yourself or that your AI wouldn't know to do for you. So relationships Open us to job opportunities, to health opportunities, to different aspects of our personality. Relationships do so much for us. So for me, it's really about how do we continue to connect, but also how do we find relationships that really do bring out the best in us. And I think that's important because sometimes we find ourselves in relationships just because, you know, we kind of like, default. Exactly. And that's definitely something that, you know, we could be a little bit pickier on when it comes to relationships. Who's in your life only be friends with people who are like you, but sometimes purposefully, who's not like you and what can you learn from them as well? So I think there's lots we can do around that social capital.

B (35:35)

Yeah, I agree. And I think even for me, Right. I consider myself to be quite a social person. Well, I was before I had a baby, but I think even now, like, like trying to think of ways to network and meet people. Like, Dubai is quite a. A great city. It's very open in that regard. Where I come from in Sydney, Australia, I feel your friendship groups are a little bit more set in concrete. Yeah. And people are less open to sort of meeting new people. So I definitely think this is an area whether you think you're social or not. I think it's worth paying attention to social through your work interests in general, through family. Like, whatever it is, it's. It's definitely an area I think we can all boost in one way or another, especially because of what you said with AI and tech. But arguably there's still space and necessity for that time alone. Right. For self reflection and all of that. And within this topic, for me, what comes to mind is self talk. Now, when we. I was telling you before, right. A lot of these concepts. When I used to listen to podcasts, I used to get really frustrated when they talk about great topics like manifestation or gratitude or things like self talk, but they never really tell you how to do it it Right. So if someone was listening and they wanted a step by step guide, like, just tell me in very simple terms, how do I get better at self talk? What does that look like? What kinds of things am I looking out for or not doing? How do you kind of walk us? Can you kind of walk us through that?

A (36:57)

Yeah. And again, let's not complicate it. So self talk, look, we're already all doing it. You spend your whole day talking to yourself, whether it's, oh, I need to pick up something at the grocery store, I need to call this person, or while you're working, tying this idea to this idea. Like we, it's an endless conversation that we have with ourselves. And that's the problem because it's constantly going on. We're not really paying attention to is this conversation a good one or a not so good one? And I come to the word useful. So I don't like the notion of positive self talk, negative self talk. Let's just see if it's useful because sometimes negative self talk might be exactly what you need. Hey, you know what? You weren't very nice right there. And Ashley, you need to go apologize to her. Right? Like that's okay to say because that's how we also change our behavior. So sometimes what appears as negative self talk isn't negative, but in fact it's what it is realistic because it fits the reality at that moment. Sometimes overly positive self talk is also not necessarily good for you. Right. I have Dh5 left. I'm going to spend it on the stock market. I wouldn't do that if I were you. Right. So not all optimism is good either. If it's anchored in fantasy versus reality, that's not good. So rather than think of must be positive, avoid negative. Is this useful? Is it bringing out the best in you? Is it bringing out what needs to be acted upon to fit the needs of this particular situation? And sometimes that's going to be not really. Or yeah, let's go all in. You got this, right? So I think maybe that's kind of one thing I could do is kind of avoid these positive and negative and just ask yourself, is this working for me?

B (38:55)

And that's like situational in the moment self reflection. How does that align with, you know, the concept of like positive psychology where you're not necessarily focusing on the negative? Like how does that, where you're not focusing on positive, negative. It's like, is this useful self talk? How does that plug into positive psychology? I'm just trying to like ah.

A (39:12)

So positive psychology is not about being positive. This is the biggest myth because so people hear positive and they're like, oh, that means be positive all the time. Oh God, no, please don't do that. No, that's awful. Don't do that.

B (39:24)

Because bit of a misleading name.

A (39:26)

It is. And, and, and actually, and I'm glad this has come up, the only reason we use the word positive, it has never related to be a positive person. It just relates to again this distinction between mainstream psychology which was focused on negative functioning, distress, dysfunction. And so we just said, okay, well that's A negative. Let's do the positive. That's it. So it has never meant be positive, but people who just kind of hear positive and they kind of forget the word psychology. They focus on, yay, lesbian. No, no, no, no, no, no. So really it's about, you know, when you think. Even in. When we think about optimism, we use the term defensive optimism or realistic optimism or flexible optimism. So to be 100% optimistic all the time, this would set you up for failure in every direction. This would be the worst thing you could do with your life.

B (40:23)

And probably not useful and not useful.

A (40:27)

Taking insane risks that are going to hurt you. You're not paying attention to all the things that could go bad and that leaves you quite vulnerable because it means you're not preparing, you're not planning for those eventualities that do go wrong in life. So this is where that be positive is. Isn't so great. At the same time, you don't want to be so negative either, because when we're overly pessimistic, we also don't take any action, like, what's the point? And then we just stay home and we're like, forget it, nothing's going to work out and what's the point of doing anything? So too much on either extreme actually sets us up for very poor functioning. So again, what we want is something in the middle, something more realistic. And in fact, I always tell people, just do both. So you've got this big opportunity ahead of you. Yeah, let's be negative for a moment. What are all the things that could go wrong? Prepare, plan. Kind of like the Girl Scout motto. When you've got everything prepared and planned for great, now you can be optimistic because all the bad stuff is covered. And now go hard on optimism. So you can also do it in order as well. The problem is most of us stop at one or the other and we don't see the value in doing both.

B (41:46)

Like a pros and cons, this type thing.

A (41:48)

Yeah, yeah. But also plan for both and realistically plan. So if there's an opportunity, if this could be like the biggest moment in your life, make a plan and do it. This might also be the biggest failure in your life. So make a plan and get ready.

B (42:04)

If you've taken something away from this conversation so far, something that challenged the way you've been thinking or put into words, something that you've been feeling, then hit that subscribe button so you don't miss what's coming next. And if you know somebody that will really resonate with this conversation, Too. Make sure you share it with them. Them. There's nothing like a conversation recommendation from a friend or somebody that knows you best. One thing I really liked that you shared in the book and I think is very interesting for people to just think about is this distinction between how we feel, how we feel about something versus how we actually experience it. Can you walk us through what that fine line is and why it matters?

A (42:42)

Yeah, it matters a lot. And I can use a very Dubai example. So, you know, we're all told that the top, like five star restaurant is. It should be where everybody wants to go and it should be where everybody is. Anybody who's anybody is going to be at, you know, pick whatever, insert restaurant name here.

B (43:02)

We won't plug anyone today.

A (43:03)

Yeah, exactly. So it's this notion of what you think about a particular event, situation, person, whatever it is, but also what you think is going to make you happy. And society really influences that, social media in particular. So it positions, you know, this, this and this as what ought to add to your life. So now you're like, oh, wow, okay, I need to do that. And then you go, and now you're sitting at this five star restaurant, you have these huge expectations like, this is just going to be like the most magical moment of my life. It's going to complete, you know, it's going to complete me in some way. And then you realize, well, first of all, oh my gosh, is that all we're eating? So you've got this little tiny, whatever, leaf, A little leaf, you know, you don't quite know what it is or whatever, it's okay, wonderful. But also, people are quite rigid and serious and you can't really laugh out loud because, you know, all the other guests are kind of looking at you and you, you kind of think, oh, this isn't really quite what I thought it was. The experience that you are having in that moment is a bit of a disappointment, but also it doesn't feel so good. Now, that doesn't mean that restaurant is bad, but it means the difference between what you thought and what actually happened are really big. So what do we do with that? Well, one is, I think this, there's a couple of lessons. One is, again, I always tell people, you do you so notice what an experience is. And if it's an experience that feels good, great. Carry on. If it's an experience that feels bad, stop. Even if that experience is supposed to make you happy because again, society is going to tell you, you should be abc. You're going to go off and do action A, B, C, and not feel much happier for it. But you will persist and push yourself and spend a lot of money, maybe engage in activities you don't particularly like. You're gonna waste time doing it. You're gonna find yourself in relationships with people that you don't really like. You're actually not living your life and you're having an experience that is less enjoyable than if you'd found your own way. And again, it's around. Just pay attention to yourself. If something feels good, great. And if it doesn't, it's okay to say no, I don't want to do this. Even if society tells me this is supposed to be what makes me happy. Let's zoom out to bigger life. That's just a restaurant example. But this is why people stay in relationships sometimes. This is why people stay in marriages that don't always work sometimes. This is why people make choices. You know, they pick this big fancy corporate job versus working, you know, maybe a side hustle, because again, that's kind of what society tells tells you you're supposed to do. So overriding our experience in favor of what we ought to do to be happy is a perfect recipe to make us unhappy. Now, sometimes you may want that corporate job, and that might exactly be what makes you happy. Then great, do it. But pay attention and make sure you are picking it and not everybody else picking it for you, because we all know people who've done that route and are not happy. And then you can't even say you're unhappy because you're the one who picked it.

B (46:36)

Yeah. Or you almost sometimes feel like, am I ungrateful for not being, you know, happy for something? I should be happy, or what's wrong with me?

A (46:43)

Yeah, everybody else is happy and I'm not, because that's not your path.

B (46:48)

I've actually, I'm the perfect use case for this. So I was, I felt very seen just then when you said, you know, you pick a big corporate job. I studied law because, you know, it's a great career and makes a lot of money and I was smart. So I got into degree, did it, you know, went through my six years of uni, sitting in my own shiny office thinking, is this it? This doesn't feel right for me. Which is actually fun fact, why I started the podcast. That was where I wanted to get meaning and actually connected people because I was very corporate. Paper me and paper all day long, then fast forward. I don't regret that, by the way, because I still have Laura's a thread in my life. It's evolved, but then fast forward. The second time I kind of felt that was when I moved to Dubai. We did like a six month stint of traveling and I was like, I'm gonna, you know, travel and work remotely. Like, this is gonna be amazing. You see all these people online living just such flexible lifestyles. I hated it. I had no structure. I was constantly torn between wanting to sightsee and be in the places I was. I was in, you know, amazing towns in Italy. But like trying to do eight hour days and then just enjoy it on either side. Not for me. I'd rather just travel, you know, and enjoy that and then just work and being routine and getting my flow. But I had to try those things to sort of understand what was right for me. So would you agree that, you know, it's a case of constantly trying new experiences and understanding these gauges is what eventually helps us get there? But what would you say to people going through the motions and they feel like, you know, this is now my third relationship. I feel like it's not working out or like I still haven't found the job that's getting me out of bed. Like, what, what are all these nudges of these meanings of these experiences? Like how do we persist in the face of it feels like it's really not working.

A (48:30)

Yeah. And I think, you know, again, people know when something doesn't work. It's not that we don't know ourselves. Everybody knows themselves. You know, when this is not who you want to be with, it's do you have the courage to do something about it? That's where people struggle. Because people know. They always know. And you just ask them, do you like your job? And you kind of get the, of course they know. So what are you going to do about it? And that's the harder piece because it takes courage to say, this experience does not work for me. I know the whole world is telling me I should be happy here, but this is not my way. I don't want to do this because it disappoints people. Parents, people look at you. Are you crazy? You're leaving a corporate job, you're making how much money? And that can be confusing for us because then we're like, oh, is my experience important enough? Is my happiness important enough to act on? Or can I just swallow it and carry on? And we all know the answer. At some point you reach a line and you're like, no, I need to do something different. Different. So I think it's about getting better saying yes and getting better saying no, but also acting on our emotion much sooner. Because after you've done the six years, it's really hard to back out of a degree once you've now sunk six years into it.

B (49:56)

Time and financial. Yeah.

A (49:57)

On the other hand, don't quit things so quickly that you've done two days and you're like, oh, this isn't for me. Well, hold on, hold on.

B (50:03)

Right.

A (50:04)

Like, you know, give things an honest try. But you know, when you've tried everything and you've reached that conclusion now it's time to do something different.

B (50:12)

I think when people are, you know, making these decisions, like, should I say, should I go? Like, money is something that isn't, you know, it's a non negotiable part of being alive in today's society. What does the science say about money? Does having more money actually make us unhappier, happier? What is the facts telling us?

A (50:32)

So this is a really interesting one and we've had sort of newer research come out in the last, let's say three or four years, which is not really surprising. But it's just when you see it on paper you're like, it's, it's what we all thought. Yes, of course, money makes us happier. So when we look at, there's kind of two interesting points on the graph, if you will, when you cannot meet your basic needs, so you're struggling to pay the ac, your school kids fees, you know, putting petrol sort of these days in the car. Right. Having more money absolutely is going to make you happier. And it's not money in and of itself, but what money does. Money reduces our worries, money gives us a sense of predictability, money gives us a sense of security. I mean, it does a lot of things, it's not just paper. So yes, money does add to happiness and then at a certain point it tends to flatten out a little bit, but the graph still continues to go up. So do people who have lots and lots and lots of money, are they happier? Kind of, yes. So generally yes. But what becomes more important then is how you are living your life and how you were using that money. So what kind of life are you creating with it? So if you're just accumulating, it will do nothing because then what makes us happy is relationships, learning, respect, love, variety, innovation, going to, to that little cafe in Italy. So it's options, it's choices, but understanding that not everything can be bought, I either. So does money make us happier? Yes, it does, but only if you spend it properly and if you're living your life properly and also if you were happier. And I just remember this is another study I'd looked at if you were happy to begin with. So if you're already happy in life, you've got good relationships and life is good. It's interesting. You're. You're living it well. More money will continue to make that possible. If you're a pessimist, if you're. You, you know, you're like really argumentative. You, you're. All your relationships are strained and stressed. You don't particularly like what you do. Throwing more money at it will do

B (52:58)

nothing, in fact, makes total sense to me. And it's that classic money amplifies what you already are. You know, if you're greedy, if you're generous, you know, those things are just going to be amplified and insofar as having basic needs met, it kind of sounds like to me, beyond that point, point, we're all in the same boat in terms of what money will do for us. It's a tool and it's how we use it. Because at the end of the day, if you're not someone dedicated to putting time in your relationships or focusing on your health, you know what we're saying before, what are your priorities, and are they on your time schedule? Having more money is not going to make you more disciplined.

A (53:32)

It doesn't make a difference.

B (53:32)

It might give you more time, but then it's the interpersonal skills that really, we're all at the same starting ground. To develop those, you still got to

A (53:41)

burn the calories, and no one can do that for you. Right?

B (53:44)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. One closing question from me. With all the work you've done, with all the research that you've dived into, with everything you do, all the content you create and the book you've written, everything, if you had to leave one sentence or one statement about what happiness really means, what would that be?

A (54:07)

Oh, gosh, I can't do it in one statement.

B (54:09)

I'll give you two.

A (54:10)

Because again, it's how you choose to put the experiences together in a way that fits for you.

B (54:22)

That's one sentence.

A (54:23)

Okay? And I want people to hear that because, you know, I've had people say, well, tell me what you. I can't tell you what to do. You own your life and you need to figure out what works for you. And sometimes that will change over time. So for many years, I was really focused on engagement, doing. I was like, in my research and trying to you know, publish books and accomplishments. And then finally I was like, I'm tired and bored. It's time to have some fun. And then I switched to positive emotional experiences. And now that's something I, I insist on. If you want to be in my life, you better be funny because otherwise, like, I'm just not doing this seriously for the next 50 years. So I think for, you know, if I had to kind of sum it up for people, it's notice what works for you and do that because you know what works for you and then have the courage to act on that.

B (55:20)

Beautiful.

A (55:20)

And also have the courage to say no when it doesn't.

B (55:24)

And just like, you know, one thing we haven't really spoken about today, but the heart of this show is talking about having balance in life. And much like happiness, it's a changing concept. It's not just that it's different between you and I, it changes for me as time goes on. And so what I like about what you've just said shared about happiness is it's this pursuit, but it's an ongoing pursuit and it's alignment that you need to constantly be monitoring. Right. Or putting a lot of your time into. If, if that's a life experience you want, I think I can confidently say we all want to be happy and have a happy existence on this earth. So very aligned with kind of what you just shared there as well.

A (56:00)

Perfect.

B (56:01)

Thank you so much.

A (56:02)

My pleasure.

B (56:02)

For coming on the show today. I really appreciate how practical and just simplified what you share is. And that's not to say, you know, what you teach is simple. I think these are very complex topics, but I think it's a, it's a great skill to be able to dilute it in a way that is actionable for people. So I think the listeners have a lot of homework. They've got a lot of notes that they can sift through and read over. On that note, if you are watching and something has been a massive standout for you, share it in the comments. Comments. I would love to hear what your biggest takeaway from the episode was. But Dr. Louise, I want to thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it and I've learned so much from you today. So really, really grateful.

A (56:45)

My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

B (56:47)

Thank. You.