← The Balance Theory
The Balance Theory
Why High-Performing Women Secretly Struggle With Feminine Energy | Nadia Zaal
00:45:53
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- [00:00]
Nadia Zaal
I think I really lost myself into this, proving that I'm as good as every other man out there. Like, I had a lot of insecurities. Why am I doing this? Is it really bringing me views? Today's guest is a founder, entrepreneur, leader, and mother. She champions consciousness, education, and health. Joining us on the podcast is Nadia Zaal. I was told I wasn't able to have children. That actually propelled this whole journey that I've gone on. And what is feminine energy? What is it to be fertile and receive life? You are so in your masculine. Like, you can't even receive a compliment, Nadia. Like, how are you going to receive a baby? I actually fell pregnant, like, five months later.
- [00:46]
Erica
What did it take for you to get there? What did you have to let go of? You've openly, kind of questioned the mainstream education model. Why do you believe that the current education system is failing our children?
- [01:02]
Nadia Zaal
What is the purpose? Okay, employability. 80 of the economy is changing. Like, what are we preparing them for? Do we even need schools?
- [01:14]
Erica
All right, Balances. Today's guest is someone I'm excited to connect with. We've just been chatting a little bit, and I feel like this conversation can go one of many ways. But I'd just like to warmly welcome you to the Balance Theory. Nadia, warm welcome to the show.
- [01:28]
Nadia Zaal
Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:29]
Erica
No, it's a pleasure. You piqued my interest in many different areas. You're a powerhouse entrepreneur. You're also a mum of four. And so there's so much we can dive into. But where I really want to start and what I've loved about having this show is really understanding people behind their titles, behind what they do, behind these labels we kind of give them, because I find it really interesting to understand their mindset that's helped them get to where they need to be. So the first question I have for you is you were named one of Forbes's 100 Most Powerful Women in the Middle East. I want to ask you, what does success mean to you?
- [02:08]
Nadia Zaal
Oh, how long? Okay, success. Look, I think success for me has evolved, obviously, over the years. I think, you know, when you're younger, you're looking for that external validation or a certain number or the title or those labels. But I think today, I would say it's about, like, that internal congruence to have, like, you know, who I am, what I believe in, and how I, like, move through life being in harmony. That really feels like peaceful and in flow to me. So that I think also because I struggled, I think the reason that's so important to me is, you know, being half Emirati, half English, I think growing up, I had a lot of, like, imposter syndrome feelings. I mean, I think most people do anyway, but I think now, like, feeling like I've come into my own and everything is just, like, who I am, what I say, what I do is all, like, in alignment. That feels really, like, successful. Cause it brings me peace. And I think also success is about being happy. Um, for me, happiness. My husband says I'm a connection junkie, which I am. You know, happiness is connection. And for me, like, when I'm really connecting to my team at work, my tribe, when I'm connecting to myself, like, when I'm, like, building communities that build connection, like, I'm all. It's that. That really brings me happiness as well.
- [03:38]
Erica
Yeah. The inner peace is often something we can't quantify.
- [03:41]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [03:42]
Erica
And it's something, you know, when we at large talk about success, it's often numbers or awards or how much money we've made or how many things we've done. And so what I've found a lot with a lot of the women I've had on the show is we do always gravitate towards this inner peace kind of alignment, definition of success. But you do feel that friction with the, I guess, more traditional ways of looking at success or measured ways of looking at success. Do you still find you feel that in a conflict, like. Or did it take time for you.
- [04:14]
Nadia Zaal
To move through that again? I know it sounds super cheesy, but, like, post 40, something radically changed in my. I've, like, it's always. It's been a journey of unlearning, Right. Like, through time and thinking about, like, your belief systems and. And all of those things. But. And there, you know, but I finally realized that, you know, you've got to grow to a certain stage to, like, hold space for the. What seem to be opposing sides of you or seem. Or other people have told you, you know, you can't be spiritual and have lots of money. You can't, you know, be a great mom and be a great entrepreneur, like, all those. Or, you know, you can't face your shadows and still be, like, a moral person. You know what I mean? And I think, like, it takes growth. And I think I've actually reached the point where I feel like that's actually my superpower is, like, you know, whether it's in my business or just who I am and how I hold myself as a person, that I'm like, yeah, I Am these crazy opposites. I will rave at a party because I love music till four in the morning and I will do breath work and I will, you know, like, I will. I'm a multi dimensional being, you know, and I think. But that took a lot of in, you know, again, not to sound like, oh, she's another one of those talking about inner work, but like just, just contemplation and really think, like giving yourself time to ask the right questions, you know, why am I doing this? Is it really bringing me peace? You know, like, because.
- [05:54]
Erica
Yeah, I think that's interesting what you've touched on, like, the polarity of can we be either or. Like, it feels like we have to be either or, right? Like we have to choose a lot of the time. And now I'm coming into motherhood as well. And I feel this is, this has been top of mind for me as well because I have tried to create. One thing I haven't told you is I work as a lawyer, but I stepped out of corporate and I've started consulting now. So I specialize in a few key areas and I have a book of clients that I'm like a fractional in house counsel for. And that move for me was very strategic because I wanted to be very hands on mum and have flexibility over my time. But I wanted to excel and be mentally challenged in the work I do. Plus, I have this podcast, right? So for me to try and make all of that work, I had to really shift that dynamic, but I had to sit with it for a long time and be like, do I have to choose? And it's really got me thinking. Do you think that by virtue of us being both right and finding a way to do both, we're not really doing either 100% or because of what you've just said, have you really found a way to feel like you are 100 in everything you do?
- [07:05]
Nadia Zaal
Again, I think we're, we're all so, like hard on ourselves about like, what is that hundred? You know, you know, I think especially women, and we do it to each other and we do it to ourselves. Like, you know, look, again, to be really honest, like, people ask me, you know, how do you, like, I'm, I'm a mom. I'm a, you know, new mom. I want to start a business. My first advice is, I know it sounds brutal, but I'm like, don't, don't do it. Because, you know, people look at me like, oh, you have everything. I'm like, listen, I've been doing this by the time I had my first child, my business was in flow. It wasn't in the stage of building a business. Right. Startups are brutal. Okay, You've got to go in like, and again, like, you know, then I, I think to myself, am I perpetuating this struggle mentality? You know, I shouldn't because sometimes it's not always like that. But you need to be. I think there's a balance of be prepared for the fact that entrepreneurship, you need to bring like a gladiator energy. And you don't want to be in that. And it's not whether you can or you can't, but I just think you don't want to be in that kind of. It's not what, you know, you all low. You know, most women I know have amazing force and power, but you don't want to be in that space when you've had a newborn. You want to be sitting in your feminine. You want everyone to be doting on you, you want to be receiving. So I think, you know, it's a matter of timing changes things, what phase you are in your life, and also defining for yourself what, what is being a great mom. You know, what is. And, and it, it, it's ebbs and flows. Like, you know, generally I'm in a great place where, you know, my kids go to school. I'm generally there in the afternoons with them. For me, bedtime is like, you know, really, really, like precious because, you know, you'll see they decompress and that's where a lot of emotion comes out and you kind of connect and stuff. So it's a little ritual that for me is like, nothing's happening there. But, you know, there are weeks where, you know, deliveries of a project are coming and I'm not so present as a mom. And there were times where I would beat myself up about it. But then, you know, there are weeks where I'm like, to my team, you guys got this, you know, so it's just, it's about what you're comfortable with. I think it's really important. Again, asking the right questions, you know, just finding that. But again, like, you know, people like how you balance everything. And I, I said to them, look, right now, balance to me looks like time with family and time at work because I'm, I feel really, I've got fire in my belly about what I'm doing. So I miss my friends because I, I don't have enough time to socialize. I miss that like, girl support system. I mean, I do have the Girls that just, you know, like, oh, screw it, Nazi. We know you don't have time. We're, like, coming over and we're gonna have, like, half an hour breakfast with you before you go to, you know, so, you know, my true friends, like, make. Make time, but something's always got to give, and you've got to be okay with that.
- [10:28]
Erica
Yeah.
- [10:29]
Nadia Zaal
You know.
- [10:30]
Erica
Yeah, it's. It's definitely not this, you know, picture perfect equilibrium. And the. The title of the show is called the Balance Theory. And the whole idea behind it is balance is not. Because when I. Before I started it, I used to really struggle with, like, guilt and overwhelm. I felt like I was trying to do everything and doing nothing at the same time. It was this constant feeling of just like, I was running on the spot and moving nowhere.
- [10:55]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [10:56]
Erica
And so the reason. A big reason I started this show was because I was really interested in what balance means to different people. And it's not only that it's different between you and I, it's actually different even for me at different stages in my life. And so already imprinting that in your head as a shifting concept that's, you know, flexible and it grows with you, I think, is. Is really important. So I'm glad you kind of shared the journey for you. You spoke about how you had to unlearn a lot. And I always find this really interesting area to go a bit deeper in, because often we're just like, what are all the things you've learned? What have you done to get to this point? And often what's unmasked is the things you had to let go of or unlearn for you and your personal growth. Right. To get to the Nadia that's sitting in front of me today that's relaxed about, you know, not being at work 101 week and then being a mum 100 the other week, and. And being in alignment.
- [11:52]
Nadia Zaal
Right.
- [11:52]
Erica
Because I think you have to let go of that pressure to actually be in flow.
- [11:56]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [11:57]
Erica
What did it take for you to get there? What did you have to let go of?
- [12:00]
Nadia Zaal
One of the biggest ones for me was people pleasing equals them. Loving me equals me being happy. Because I'm a connection junkie, and I'm all about, like, you know, I want to, like, be with people, go deep with people. Like that, for me is happiness. And, you know, I equated that connection or love or whatever you want to label it with me being, you know, doing something for them. That was a huge one for me because I realized I was really Depleted. So whether it was, you know, for my parent, like my family or my friend, like, it was, I realized, like I remember sitting one day and thinking, oh my God, like a lot of my relationships are depleting me, you know, like, were they one sided? Why? Yeah, a lot, you know. Okay, I don't want to say like fully one sided, but definitely lopsided. And, and it wasn't any fault of any of these, like these people were all beautiful people. You know, my mum loves me to bits, but I have, I, I had created these, you know, patterns where, you know, my mum wouldn't be able to function without me doing everything for her. When that was not true at all, or my dad or, you know, it was, it was when I actually just, you know, slowed down, you know, I hit, like I was really exhausted, I wasn't feeling very well and I was like, oh my God, like, I've really got to put back, I've got to learn to say no. I can't even like saying no. And it was really weird because like for me, the people that I didn't care about or that were less of a face at work or whatever, I was able to do it. But if I felt any emotional connection to you, I just, I'd literally choke up. So that was a massive, you know, I read all these books about like learning to say no and like starting practicing saying no to like really little things and growing and it was literally like building a muscle, I would say. And now I again, like, you know, do I have it absolutely right? No. But I definitely have much stronger boundaries. So that was a really big one. And I think, you know, once you have boundaries, you can start designing. You have the time to design the life that is in flow because you.
- [14:32]
Erica
Know, the energy you would have spent giving to everyone else, you can invest in yourself.
- [14:36]
Nadia Zaal
That was a big one. And then I would say also this whole concept of like being productive also equals worth, you know.
- [14:47]
Erica
Yes.
- [14:49]
Nadia Zaal
And again, surprising, you know, everything. Also, like, I was told I wasn't able to have children actually. So we'd been married for a year and you know, we weren't like, it wasn't like a massive rush. But you know, you get to a year and you're like, okay, let's just go and have a check and make sure everything's okay. And I remember sitting in the hospital, in the doctor's clinic actually, and he said, look, you know, your chances are really, really low and if you, even if you do have ivf, even then it's really low. And I just sat there and I was like, whoa. You know, that's a lot of information to process. And you know, it's, that actually propelled this whole journey that I've gone on. You know, what is feminine energy? What is it to be fertile and receive life. Right. Like, and I, I realized that, you know, and I, of course I checked all the physical and the hormones and everything. But I think for me, you know, I was still, I was, I was meditating a lot at the time. And so, you know, I was, you know, these messages were kind of coming to me and I realized there was this inner knowing or inner voice saying that that's where your work, that's, that's your blockage. Like forget everything else. Like you are so in your masculine, you know that like you've got to do and you've got to prove and like you can't even receive a compliment, Nadia. Like, how are you going to receive a baby? Wow. You know, and that really like, I did like a lot of like just, you know, people ask me and I'm like, just receive a compliment. You know, when they talk about, I talk about fertility issues, I'm like, receive a compliment, you know, happily, like get someone to make you tea, like sitting in a fat. In your feminine. And, and they're like, well, does that mean we don't do anything? I was like, no. But it's just about, you know, powerful women, like summon things into their life. It's not about push and yes. Can you do it? Absolutely. I can hustle better than any man can. But that doesn't mean, you know, you need to learn to like know these things about yourself. And it's almost like playing with these like mechanics, you know, the female and the male and the yin and the yang and, and, and magic can really happen there. So that was, I would say also really big learning for me that came out of crisis.
- [17:22]
Erica
You know, that's really interesting. I have started to over the years kind of learn a bit more about feminine and masculine, like very, very similarly to you. And I think because I was trained and kind of came up through the corporate world the way where even the way we're assessed on a daily basis.
- [17:39]
Nadia Zaal
Right.
- [17:40]
Erica
It's based off very much a masculine way of working which is the energy resets every 24 hours. It's not appreciating and honoring the female, let's say. Yeah, you know, average 28 day ebb and flow of energy. So when it comes to falling pregnant, this is really interesting. So you're saying you you believe that because you were in. So. In your masculine energy that you were so.
- [18:03]
Nadia Zaal
In my masculine. I was all about the push. My adrenals were exhausted. Like, you know, you're in Chinese medicine, for example. Your adrenals, your kidneys, like, I was depleted. Now, if you're in that. If you're coming from that space, yes, they can give you hormone, you know, they can give you stuff to stimulate your ovaries, but you're just masking the real issue. The real issue. Right, the real issue that, like, you know, just calming down. You know, I. I love the sea. I love the sun. Like, just going for a sunset swim and, you know, having a dance and listening to some music like that, I think did so much for me.
- [18:44]
Erica
Yeah. You know, what was the journey from, like, you being told that it's going to be very difficult for you to have kids, even. Even with ivf, to then you falling pregnant? Like, can you maybe share something? Yeah, just some things that really changed.
- [18:59]
Nadia Zaal
Actually, ironically, I went back into that doctor's clinic not. Not because I was upset with him, just to. Just because I felt like I needed to share.
- [19:09]
Erica
Yeah.
- [19:11]
Nadia Zaal
But, you know, I. I actually fell pregnant, like, five months later.
- [19:17]
Erica
Wow.
- [19:18]
Nadia Zaal
And my husband was really, you know, it wasn't fair because he was really panicked and he was like, you know, let's just go to New York and, you know, do the iv. There's anything wrong with that at all. But I was like, you know, I just. I just need to give myself some time to figure out what's going on. You know, he said that I had low egg reserve, which I did, obviously, on a. From a physical. I. I depleted myself, you know, but you don't need that. You need that one. You know, you need. You don't need that much anyway. So, like, when they say these things to you, it can sound a lot scarier than it actually is. And thankfully, I'm someone that likes to, like, take things into my own hands.
- [19:55]
Erica
And so, quick side note, for me, you have to remember that everything is a business of the day, too.
- [19:59]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [20:00]
Erica
Just take that with a grain of salt.
- [20:01]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah, absolutely. So. So what did I do? I actually. I read a book called Spirit Babies, which was really beautiful. And it's about how, like, you know, you become a mother the minute you actually decide, like, you're already connecting with the soul. I wrote letters. I'm gonna get. Yeah, I wrote letters to, like, my unborn child, and I decided that, like, I'm a mum, you know, and then also, I started to behave you know, I started to make the changes. I started thinking, like, this soul is looking at me and, like, we've connected and, you know, how am I making space for this soul? Like, if I'm working crazy hours, am I. Am I making space for this soul? Like, would they look and be like, yeah, yeah, my mom's ready for me.
- [21:00]
Erica
It's time for me to go.
- [21:01]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah. So I did a lot of that. Like, I held myself to that bar of, like, I'm a mum today. I think I also did quite a lot of work around, like, healing my relationship with my mother, whether it was, you know, actually talking to her or just processing my emotions, you know. And again, like, being in my feminine, finding joy in things, you know, being a bit more girly. Like, just girly can mean whatever. Like, it means for you. Yeah. And just, like, again, like, being disciplined about just reminding myself, like, what is it to be fertile and happy and, you know, all those things, because I think I really lost myself into this. Proving that I'm as good as every other man out there or proving that I can do this, or, you know, like, I had a lot of insecurities.
- [22:04]
Erica
Yeah.
- [22:04]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [22:05]
Erica
This is so beautiful. I'd love to know. Can you just share with us the moment you found out you were pregnant?
- [22:13]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah, actually, I. I knew before I had the test, and my husband's like, you're away. But, like, we were in Turkey. We were on a boat in Turkey, and I had just. We were watching the sunset, and I just felt this. Like. It's hard to describe, really, but I just had this immense feeling that I was pregnant. And I said to him, I said to him, listen, you keep talking about a girl, and I really want you to sit here and just say to this soul, whether it's a girl or a boy, you're welcome. And, you know, like, let's do this together. And my husband, you know, he's a very, like, alpha male, just thought I was completely insane, but humored me because he knew how important it was for me. And so he sat there and he. And we did that. And I don't remember, like, exactly what day it was. It was a few days before that, because we were on the boat, we were sailing. We were not, like, close to any towns or whatever. So I think it was three or four days later. We got into Bodrum, into the marina, and I said to the captain, please, will you go and, like, get a pregnancy test? And my sister was with me, and I went and I. You know, and it was positive. And she was like oh my God. Again, again, again. And like literally she made me pee on sick like four times. And like I literally just like sat on the floor, I couldn't move and I was like, oh my God. Did we tell Kabir? Because like I, I was still scared. I had all this fear still in my head. Like you know, with all those doctors saying these things. Do we tell Kabir? Did we tell Kabir and she's like of course we tell Kabir. You crazy. And yeah, and then I remember like he came down and it was just a very intense moment.
- [24:11]
Erica
Yeah, that's beautiful.
- [24:13]
Nadia Zaal
I proceeded to eat a whole cake.
- [24:17]
Erica
Amazing. Celebratory.
- [24:19]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [24:19]
Erica
No, that's beautiful. I really love the way you tackled that and the way you use like your self awareness and reflecting on the way you're actually expending your own energy. I think, you know, I think a lot of the time when we hear about the way people use their mindset or these tools, it can sound very woo woo. But at the end of the day you don't realize how powerful it is when you can harness your attention in, in a certain way.
- [24:45]
Nadia Zaal
That's all it is, it's attention. And you know, it's really ironic because I don't think anything else would have gotten me to stop being living the way I was living. It was, it had to be something as intense of me wanting to be a mum.
- [25:00]
Erica
You know, it's beautiful to reflect on like the purpose of things in life. I'll share a quick story before I ask you my next question, which is I similar to you, I've been into meditation for quite a few years. Five years ago I was in a meditation. I was really deep and I said this to my husband. He kind of looks at me a bit strangely. I said, I can't tell you how I know this but. But I just felt the energy of our baby girl. Like our first baby is going to be a girl. And on his side of the family it's been boys for two generations. Like they haven't had any girls. He was adamant our first would be a boy. Anyway, that was five years ago and now by the time this episode will come out, the baby will be here. We've had a girl and it just felt like this crazy. Like I had this inner knowing and I had that soul connection. So I feel like that's a really beautiful tool for anyone listening whether you want to be a mom in the next few years or not. If it's on your cards in the future, like if you make that decision. It really guides the way you show up every day.
- [26:01]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [26:01]
Erica
The way you show up for yourself. It's a really nice accountability piece, even if it's in the future, because it helps you start to build that life now. Like, I really like that way of thinking. I haven't really thought about it before. I'd love to know on the business side, right, because you obviously went through a personal transformation from that doctor's appointment to you falling pregnant, and then you've had subsequent pregnancies after that. How's that changed the way you show up in business? Oh, because I assume it would have happened.
- [26:31]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah, it has. For sure, I think. Motherhood, you know, again, I. I always say, like, you know, even before motherhood, like, I was always someone that was interested in exploring, you know, that what is the purpose of life. You know, doing breath work. You know, like, I did a lot of spiritual work. Yeah. Like going on retreats and understanding who I am. And are we. These labels and all of that. But I think, you know, and learn. I love to grow. Like, I'm all about, like, growing and learning and. And I would say, like, motherhood cracks you open. That is like, spiritual work. Forget it. We'll have this connection discussion again soon. Like, motherhood with, you know, with. With. With some level of consciousness and, you know, focus, I think, is the most spiritually awakening work there is out there.
- [27:34]
Erica
No training, Will.
- [27:36]
Nadia Zaal
No training. And I think, you know, it makes you. You grow. You're able to hold more space, if that makes sense. Like, you're able to, you know, your child will do something that, like, aggravates you. And. And then you're like, okay. And then you get upset, and then you're like, why am I? And I'm making it worse. And then, of course, every mother wants to be a better mother every day, right? Like, it's just the way we're wired. We don't want to upset our child. We don't want to be. And so then you start thinking, spiritual or not, whether you've. You automatically start thinking this way, right? You automatically start thinking, what was that about? Okay, I was annoyed because actually, that's a reflection of something I don't like about myself. Like a trigger. Yeah, it's a trigger. And so you start facing your own shadows and your own stuff. And then you, you know, like, with everything, the minute you give, you accept it, you make. You make peace with it, right. On some level. And you. And you grow. And like, you just. Everything. Your heart becomes bigger. You're More accepting, you're less judgmental because you. You're literally, like, you have. You're, like, overflowing with love for this person, and you're just so much more accepting. And I think, like, you know, if you imagine, like, your heart literally, like, grows, like, as a leader, because at the end of the day, what is a business, right? It's a collection. It's a collector collection of people that have made a collection of promises to other people. You know, like, that's what it is. And when you're the leader of that tribe and your heart's growing, you're just able to accept more. Like, I was more accepting of my team. I think I created a better connection, like, amongst them. I think I led them in a. In a more. In a more vulnerable way. Like, I remember I was more stoic and more like, this is how a boss is supposed to be. And, you know, again, coming from that space of, like, I don't want to be like, that boss that they think, oh, she's so emotional and she's a, you know, a lady. And. But, like, when I was more vulnerable and shared more, like, everything just, like, we just got closer as a team. And, yeah, the business, I would say, like, it propelled my business because I think at the end of the day, like, what. What do we do as. As entrepreneurs, we're like, we hold space. We problem solve. Like, we hold space for other people to problem solve. So the bigger that container is, the easier it is for things to, like. Like, again, I don't want to sound woo, but again, like, alchemize in the way that, like, you turn a problem into a solution. Like, businesses give you a solution to a problem. Like, that's what, you know, my superpower. Every. Every super. Every superpower of every entrepreneur is solving a problem and solving it well. So solving it efficiently with a bottom line that's like, you know, and you grow as a company and everyone's happy and, you know.
- [30:49]
Erica
Yeah, it's crazy how, like, vulnerabilities is perceived. And I'm no stranger to this. Yeah, it's perceived as a weakness, especially in very clinical or, like, corporate settings. And one thing I have learned, I mean, not in your direct experience, like, going through motherhood for you, I assume, put you in that trajectory where you, like, you've just shared. For me, it was leaving corporate and it was starting my own consulting. But it was this moment where I realized the way I am in my life, the Erica my husband gets, my friends get, my podcast guests get. That was that was all authentically me. But when I used to go into an office, I would be this like, hard shell version of myself. So when I moved into consulting, I just started being who I authentically was of my clients. I wouldn't wear a suit because I hate wearing suits and heels. It's not, it's not me. So smart casual, appropriate, but not to that extent. I talk about my podcast. It's not something I'm like, oh, I don't want to talk about that at work because I don't want people to think I'm doing anything but work. I talk about how I, you know, my culture. I've got an Italian heritage. I've got a big family. I am not, I'm not afraid for them to know that I'm pregnant and might be out of work for a little bit.
- [32:03]
Nadia Zaal
Right.
- [32:03]
Erica
You know, I have. I just, I was actually very pleasantly surprised that showing up just as I do with my friends in my work.
- [32:13]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [32:13]
Erica
Had such beautiful rewards.
- [32:16]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [32:16]
Erica
You know, and people, like, gravitate and also then they meet you where you're at. You know, I think especially people who are. Have done that work on themselves, they're able to meet you where you're at if they've done that work.
- [32:29]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [32:30]
Erica
And it just creates for such a different dynamic. Like, I just didn't think that that could exist within, like the corporate space that I was sitting in.
- [32:37]
Nadia Zaal
But, you know, at the end of the day, generally speaking, I like people that have, again, you know, who've done things, who created impact, you know, who are managers or whatever, business owners or, you know, who you're worried about, what they think of you. They're leaving impact. Leaving impact is growth. Like they've been there.
- [33:01]
Erica
Yeah.
- [33:01]
Nadia Zaal
You know what I mean? Yeah.
- [33:02]
Erica
100. I know we don't have much time left, but I do have one more question for you and it's change gear a little bit.
- [33:08]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [33:09]
Erica
It's about the education system. I know you have your own.
- [33:14]
Nadia Zaal
Kind.
- [33:14]
Erica
Of school and foundation here which, which focuses on a very different model than the traditional system. And you've openly kind of questioned the mainstream education model, which I find really interesting and have some aligned thoughts on. I'd love to know why do you believe that the current education system is failing our children?
- [33:34]
Nadia Zaal
You know, again, it's, it's, it's been a journey for me. So I. When Elan, who's Now Elan, is 11. So when he was 2 and I was ready to go back to work, like full time, I just started looking at nurseries and people were like, oh, go to this nursery. And you know, you'd love it. It's whatever, organic or whatever it is. And the Dubai, it actually started from a thought about, not about academics or schools, it's just like social structures. So the Dubai that I grew up in is a very different Dubai that Dubai is today. Right. Like, Dubai was small. We all knew each other, people from all walks of life, social status, financial status. Like, it was very mixed, I guess, because it was so small. So by, like, it didn't. By design. Yeah. You know, and I remember, like going to this, like, really good, like, early years setting, but I remember being in the, in the, in the car park and I just saw like, all these kids coming out of like Maybachs and Rolls Royces. And again, there's absolutely nothing, you know, that's you successful, you've earned your money. Great. But, you know, as a mom, you start questioning, like, what are the values you're imparting? And, and one of the big things for me is, you know, like, money, energy is a strong, It's a force. Right. So you've got to, you've got to, in my opinion, you've got to be able to have your own force to like, respect that and manage that and whatever and, and that comes, you know, like when, when, if money's given like, easily, it's like giving a really strong power to someone that is not ready. That's my personal opinion. Yeah.
- [35:32]
Erica
Or like, doesn't know how to yield.
- [35:34]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah. So I'm like, it's a, it's a, you know, good or bad, it's not about. It's just forceful, it's strong. So, you know, that should come at a certain time after, you know, you have a rite of passage or whatever it is. So, you know, I'm looking at like, all these kids and you know, also like, some of them, again, the way they were speaking to like, the staff, I was like, this isn't the Dubai I grew up in. Like, it wasn't like this. And I, and then I looked at the school fees and I was like, okay, yeah, I mean, this is going to exclude the bulk of people. And I was like, you know, so it started like, what is the support system, the, the surroundings. Who are my kids going to be around? Right. Because, you know, the control freak that I am, I'm like, oh my God, like, what are the values they're going to learn from? And, you know, they say it takes a village. It takes a village. Right. So I just thought, started to think about that. And that evening a friend of mine was talking about Rudolph Steiner and I was aware of his work because of his biody farming where you farm with the lunar cycles. And I didn't know he had thoughts on education. And immediately I read a couple of his books and I was like, this just sounds like, it just makes sense to me like how you would introduce things that life moves at seven year cycles that you should, you know, in like the first seven years should be all about magic of childhood and you know, play. And then the second seven years are about like your, your heart and you get your feelings and then you move into your intellect. It just, to me it was just like, you know, in Islam as well. I grew up a Muslim, I'm a practicing Muslim. Like seven years of that's how what we believe to say all just like align, align. Fast forward another week. I met someone who'd also who was in education, who had started a small Steiner like homeschooling pod. And I was like, come here, let's open a nursery. I got the Waldorf curriculum approved as a nurse in an earlier setting. We started all of a sudden, like there's loads of people like applying and we just a small villa like nothing. And I, you know, I didn't want to make money because you know, I just wanted to and I don't like, it's not whatever money goes back into the, into the business. Like I just wanted it to be more accessible. I didn't want to bleed money. Like I wanted it to pay for itself and everything just. And we just, and then with time through this, through this, that started just as a nursery, you know, these kids start to grow and the parents were like, listen, we, you know, we love this. We can't then now transition into mainstream. Yeah. And then the government, actually I remember Khta said to me, look, we're looking at progressive models of education. Like we'll help you, you know, give you some land, like speak to the Knowledge Fund and we'll, you know. And then of course I think, you know, what does that model look like? It was a little bit of a battle between me and the regulator. Not because, you know, I think they really appreciate the pedagogy of Waldorf or the ideology. But then rightly so, you know, when you're a regulator of like something so sensitive as children, you have an obligation to make sure you understand what are the learning objectives. You know, if these kids leave your school and you know, their dad moves back to England, can they get into, you know, it's a. It's a huge responsibility. So that has then, like, I looked at many curriculums because, you know, a lot of people think like, Waldorf is very, like, hippie, dippy and, you know, not academically rigorous, which is not true, but I'm not going to bore you with that. So we kind of did a blend and we've mapped like the national curriculum for England learning objectives, but the way. And the Waldorf pedagogy and then the way you get there, I think, you know, just simple things. You go to school. Most schools are like 45 minute lesson blocks, right? Maths, English, blah, blah, blah. When you learn as an adult and you go into an immersion for three days, everybody knows, like, that's a far superior way of, like the cognition that what you remember is. So we do like a learning block, like a theme of a few weeks. So, for example, like ancient civilizations, the Greek, you know, mythology is a block and then into that. So they're living and breathing that for weeks. And in that, they will do their English learning objectives through those stories, through, you know, public speaking, through a play. They will even, you know, build projects that integrate maths. You know, I'm an entrepreneur. I don't think schools teach you anything about, like, financial literacy or, you know, podcasting as a super, like all these things. And look, lots of changing. It's changing super fast. I think Covid proved to a lot of moms, they're like, what do they do all day at school? You don't, you know, you have an individualized AI learning app. You can. I mean, they say two hours in 90 minutes. These kids, you know, adapts to them. In 90 minutes a day, they can hit most children, like, average. I'm talking hit whatever standardized test you need to give them, and they're done. 90 minutes max. 2 hours a day, you know, so, okay, what does that mean? You know, what do they do with the rest of their time? What skills, what life skills are we teaching them? You know, like these kids at my school, they. They built. They grow their own food from seed, you know, that brings. It's not about. It builds confidence. Yeah. Could someone else do it? It's not the point. Like, it builds connection to nature. It improves their eating habits because they're so excited to eat what they've grown. And then you can integrate, like, their heritage. So for me, for my kids, you know, it's really important to me that they, you know, they're only 1/4 now. Emirati. Right. But this is home for me and, you know, things have changed and how do I bring that, you know, so in, in the farming calendar, we use like an ancient Emirati, like we call it the Durur. There's. When you do things that are project based, it's just so much easier to be a bit more flexible. And listen, I don't know, I mean, the more I go into this, ironically, I've started the school and we're approved for primary from September, inshallah. But like, the more we, I get into it, the more I question the whole, the whole like, model. Do we even need schools? We need community. Yes. We need mentors. Yes. You know, the concept of like micro schools, I think, you know, because a lot of large schools, you can't build community, even for parents, for moms, it's, it's, it's lonely. So I think there's a lot of questioning for me right now around, like, you know, I'm like, why am I building? Like, I want to do a high school. Do I really want to do a high school? I don't know. Yeah.
- [42:48]
Erica
Yeah. Well, I think it's going to be an interesting Watch his space and we can probably have another conversation about it in a few years. But I think all in all, the way I kind of see it is school very much prepares you to be a cog in the wheel in corporate. That's how you're on a very strict deadline. You're taught stuff to regurgitate to then spit out an exam. There's no critical thinking, it's no life skills, there's no personal development. So for me, I look at now the way the world's changing, the opportunities we have, it's no longer just, I grew up being told, get a safe job, go work in corporate. It's the right thing to do.
- [43:22]
Nadia Zaal
We don't even know what is the purpose. Okay, employability. We like 80 of the economy is changing. Like, what are we preparing them for? Exactly. And then, you know, ban chat, gbt. No, it's here to stay. You can't ban it. Let's give them the right prompts, you know, so it's. I know, look, there are amazing models out there. There are some amazing schools, like really wanting to do the right things here. But again, it's, it's a whole system. Right. It's not even about the local regulators. It's like, I've spoken to loads of teachers who are wanting to do that. You don't get into teaching unless you're inspired. It's not the best paid job in the world. Right. So they want to do things, but then they're like, okay, but then our school management wants data, and that data stems from the standardized tests. And so I end up going into this pitfall of teaching to assess, which is not good teaching. Right. Because you need to look at this child and bring out their innate abilities.
- [44:19]
Erica
And.
- [44:20]
Nadia Zaal
And then you talk to management and you're like, why are you doing this to teachers? And they're like, because I've got to prove my data. And then you talk to like an officer in England. You're like, it's the system. Why are you obsessed with the data? And they, and I understand from their perspective, they need to analyze somehow. They need some form of making sense of it all.
- [44:41]
Erica
Yeah.
- [44:42]
Nadia Zaal
But then I think we need to just rejig that whole, like, how do you benchmark, you know, Especially with the.
- [44:48]
Erica
Knowledge that, like, the opportunities as adults leaving school, that's changing very rapidly. And I even think, like, when my daughter is 18 and, like, what are her options going to be? Is university going to exist? And so it's interesting. It's almost like a chicken and egg thing. Like, you can't really. Like, we, we should change preparing for that to prepare them. But at the moment, the way the system's built is for something that's on its way out. So I think we're in a very formative time. But I'd love to chat to you further about it maybe in the coming years, because it's a space I'm obviously starting to think about now too.
- [45:21]
Nadia Zaal
Yeah.
- [45:21]
Erica
But Nadia, it's been so nice connecting with you. This won't be the last time we connect for sure. Because there's many avenues of alignment and interest of mine that I think we cross over on. But thank you so much for your energy and time today.
- [45:32]
Nadia Zaal
I really made me want another one now.
- [45:34]
Erica
Yes. Let's go. Number five.
- [45:37]
Nadia Zaal
I need to just stay away from pregnant ladies. My ovaries start hurting.
- [45:41]
Erica
I won't invite you over then when she's born. Thank you so much.
- [45:44]
Nadia Zaal
Thank you.
- [45:56]
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