← The Balance Theory
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- [00:00]
A
You could spend your entire life performing, being a people pleaser, having loads and loads of friends and feeling like you're not seen.
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B
Meet Kaggy Dunlop, former Made in Chelsea star. Now a singer, songwriter, author and podcast host, she wrote a best selling book on cosmic life changes and helps thousands navigate self worth and personal growth.
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A
Through my 20s, I wanted to be liked and loved by everybody. I was like a chameleon by nature. I would adapt to whatever situation I found myself in. I wanted to take the mask off. I had very little idea who I actually was underneath it.
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B
So can you tell me who is Kagi today?
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A
Ooh.
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We have this idea, especially as we approach 30. It's like everything had to be filed into place by 30. And then we get there and we're like, I don't have the partner, I don't have the career, I don't have the house. Like, I don't have. I haven't ticked these boxes that society told me to tick. You could get to your late 20s and be like, I am making the same mistake again and again and again. Results the same. What am I not seeing?
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B
What kind of questions would you be asking yourself in that position?
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A
There's a particular exercise that I find really powerful, which is a.
- [01:13]
B
All right, balancers, welcome back to another episode of the Balance Theory. I'm very excited for today's conversation. This guest I met, we were both pregnant. We both have girls that are six weeks apart. And we met at so kind of like a birthing pregnancy course here in Dubai. We just happened to be sitting next to each other. The stars aligned, and now I'm grateful to call you a friend and even more so to have you on the show today, to get to know you a little bit more. My guest today is Kagi Dunlop. Kaggy, welcome.
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A
Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
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B
No, I'm really excited. Now you speak about something a lot that I have never spoken about on the show, which is a Saturn return. And from the brief conversations we've had, that's something I'm going through and I know a lot of my listeners would be going through. So I'd love for you to just give us a download like, what is your Saturn return?
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A
So your Saturn return is something that happens when the planet Saturn returns to the same place in the sky it was when you were born. And within the realms of astrology, this brings up a massive sort of life overhaul, kind of initiation into adulthood, where we get tested with a lot of things. And Saturn as a planet is very much associated with Karma, discipline, structure, boundaries. So it can feel very heavy and you can just get the sense like life is kind of crumbling. Often it feels that way. So it's a very challenging period in one's life. Whether or not you kind of buy into astrology, I think we can all relate to your late twenties being quite turbulent and essentially, I guess through my own experience of finding this time in life quite challenging. I then wanted to tell other people about it and then created the Saturn Returns podcast.
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B
Amazing. So this is something that happens, what, when you're 28?
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A
Yes, 29 and a half. So it takes 29 and a half years to do its full orbit. So it's quite a slow moving planet. And with that, it kind of is like asking you to reflect on your life. So so far it's very much you reap what you sow. So if you haven't been very disciplined, if you aren't in alignment, if you were in the wrong relationship, pursuing the wrong career, often those things can kind of all come crumbling down at once or very abruptly. It feels very abrupt. But essentially what it's doing is trying to put you on a path that feels more authentic and aligned with who you truly are. So when people come out the other side, because it's. It takes about three years. So it's not like a. It's not just overnight, it's not like a. You know, we were just discussing before we started recording, like Mercury retrograde is two weeks. This is like a three year transitional thing. But there's like an intense period of it and then there's kind of like the shadow period of it. But essentially it's like making you sort. We sort everything in your life out. And it can be, like I said, very challenging.
- [04:10]
B
Definitely something I can relate to and a lot of people can too. Question, since it's like a 29 and a half year journey, does that mean you go through it again at. What's my maths? 58. 59, yes.
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A
So if you're lucky, you might have three Saturn returns. And the first one is very much about.
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Aligning with your authenticity. The second one is more about legacy. So that's when people are kind of approaching 60, when they'll have another kind of what am I doing? But what's really important, I think for the listeners to know, and I found this very useful and it can get a little bit complicated, but so many people will message me saying, I think I'm going through my Saturn returns early. And you can't go through it early. It's like the planets are moving as they're moving. Everyone will go through exactly mathematically when they're supposed to. But you do have Saturn squares and oppositions. So if you think about how Earth has seasons, Saturn also has seasons. And these seasons last seven years. So in your life, if you reflect at 7, 14, 21, up until your Saturn return, you can see these visits from Saturn, which are your squares and oppositions, where it's kind of bringing those themes in again around authority, discipline, structure, boundaries. And your Saturn return is just that big.
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Test.
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B
Yeah, I guess it's like what people kind of feel like is like a quarter life crisis.
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A
Exactly, exactly. And then if you look at midlife crisis, that's around a Saturn square, I think. So it's like 42. Often people start, you know, I don't know, the sports car or the suddenly picking up. My dad started roller skating, which is just like a kind of thing where people are suddenly trying to know they're making these changes. And so yeah, a lot of these things that we use in day to day language like midlife crisis, quarter life crisis. Another one is like seven year itch. If you think about that. That's like seven, seven year cycles. And in a sort of, don't want to lower the tone, but the under 27 club, have you heard of that? Which is like a lot of artists and musicians that died at 27. So astrologically we kind of look at that and say, well, they kind of didn't initiate, they weren't able to kind of manage whatever was going on internally with them. Because I think we can all relate to the fact that during our late 20s it's quite, we're dealing with quite a lot emotionally, I think, but it feels very isolating. But actually I think there's something quite reassuring and knowing that everyone is going through the same sort of struggles and that is what I found from doing the podcast and the book and building this community, is that actually a lot of people feel the same.
- [07:08]
B
Yeah, it's definitely comforting for an experience that does feel like you're the only person going through it or like you're alone going through, I think is more the point to know that it's, you know, all people born in that year probably going through the same thing. And it's true, like you probably have friends that are like making big changes or this is around the age where a lot of people do get married, have kids, move overseas, start businesses. Like, it's sort of like you're out of that, that experimenting, studying, figuring out what you're going to do and maybe you're trying to ground a little bit more and like, let the chips fall and sort of working out what that looks like. What is the difference? Or is there a difference with this being a period of reinvention versus you rediscovering who you actually are?
- [07:55]
A
I like that a lot because when I. When I wrote the Saturn Returns book, I gave it to someone to read before it was published to see what he thought of it. And he said, this is actually. If you take out the astrology, this is the story of reinvention. Because, I mean, for those that don't know, I. When I was in my early 20s, did TV, then I was in music, then I kind of found my feet in something that I would never have expected to be doing. Yet it feels very much aligned with who I am. And I remember reflecting on that and I was like, I. I can see that. But actually, for me, it's always felt more like a coming home, you know, coming home to who you truly are. So you could spend your entire life performing, being a people pleaser, you know, having loads and loads of friends and feeling like you're not seen. And I think a lot of people can relate to that because. Well, personally, for me, Anyway, through my 20s, I wanted to be liked and loved by everybody. Yeah, I was like a chameleon by nature. I would adapt to whatever situation I found myself in, be whoever I needed to be. And it was in my late 20s where I was just like, this is exhausting. I can't sustain this because also.
- [09:13]
Whilst I knew I wanted to take the mask off, I had very little idea who I actually was underneath it. And that was quite terrifying because I'd had a lifetime of. Of playing the part. And so actually coming back home to myself was quite tricky because I was having to get to know who I was. So I can say for me personally, it felt rather than a reinvention. It might look like a reinvention, but it was actually coming back to the truth of who I've always been. And I think that I can see that very clearly because I always wrote journals when I was younger and I've kept them all. They're like my prized possessions and when I reflect on them, I can see so much the mirroring between that version of me and who I am today. And then there was just this, like, big chunk in the middle of trying things on for size, in a way.
- [10:11]
B
Yeah. And it's kind of like you go through life and there's layers Right. The layers of your parents, society, media, peers, friends, social media. Like, there's many layers that get added on. And I do feel your 20s is a phase of, like, working out what is aligned for you and what's not. And I definitely can relate to that feeling of wanting to be liked by everyone and being a people pleaser. And, you know, I went to law school because I thought that was a good job to have and it would kind of put me on this trajectory that I thought was expected of, you know, school, uni, good job, marriage, house. Like, those things take time to undo. And I quite like the idea. And I would actually go so far to say that in all cases, it's actually not reinvention, it's rediscovery. Because.
- [11:01]
I think when you are in true alignment, you're actually just reconnecting with who you actually are. And even if you've never turned your mind to, like, who that person is, it doesn't mean you're like. I just feel like the concept of rediscovery is like you're recreating yourself out of nowhere, you know, like those midlife crises. That language makes you feel like you're just sort of stepping into this new version that you've never known before. And it's like, not who you've ever been. But it's quite nice to think of it as this coming home aligned phase.
- [11:32]
A
Yeah. And we also, I think we need to give ourselves permission to. Whether you want to call it rediscovering or reinvention, I think it's healthy to do that because we have this idea, especially as we approach 30. Do you remember when you were younger, when people were like, oh, if we're not married at 30, like, I'll marry you. It was like, everything had to be filed into place by 30. And then we get there and we're like, I don't have the partner, I don't have the career, I don't have the house. Like, I don't have. I haven't ticked these boxes that society told me to tick. And I think sometimes people force them to be ticked in order just to be like, okay, I'm safe, but it's all an illusion anyway. And actually if you kind of reframe that as, like, whether it's approaching your Saturn return or any stage in life to be like, who do I want to be? I often think, like, who am I going to be at 42? Like, what do I want to really pull on from my, I guess, my, my gifts? Like, what aspect of myself would I lean into then which might look externally like a reinvent but I think that that's a healthy thing and especially if you look at people's second Saturn return obviously I'm not close to that yet but I can see from my mum and her peers that actually they have so much to give and society sort of tells them to like slow down and they've kind of made their contribution a lot of the time and doesn't really invite them to reinvent themselves at that stage. Whereas actually I think there's could be a whole new lease of life than a different career pivot that you might suddenly feel that when you're in that phase of more I guess like archetypally the sort of the crow or moving into like from the mother kind of evolving that you would want to be able to guide people, you know. So I think it's important to always allow yourself the freedom to change and grow.
- [13:35]
B
Yeah 100 do you have any? Because I know like you're a really introspective person as am I. Do you have any sort of questions that you may be reflected on or now you can share with people kind of going through that 30, 31 they're feeling like they don't have all the boxes ticked. That scares them. They don't have the confidence maybe to. Or they're unsure what other path there is and they're scared to explore that because society does have this idea of having things figured out by a certain age and maybe they're at this age now I'm feeling like I don't have it worked out. What kind of questions would you be asking yourself in that position to really come home to yourself?
- [14:20]
A
I think firstly to offer yourself grace because whilst there is the external and societal pressure nothing makes it worse than we do in our own heads of saying so and so has it all figured out that person's done this, that person's got married, that person's got that comparison. Comparison. Yeah. And it makes us be in a state of shame and then we're never going to be able to. To move from that place. So what I would say is the best place to start is to kind of start journaling and I remember when I was at that age and it was probably the kind of just before like 27 I started like I'd have this almost sort of dream like state when I would have this voice being like who am I? Like who? But it was like asking me like who are you? And I found it really hard because it kept coming to Me and I was like, I don't really know. And now I kind of think that's such a silly thing. But I found it painful at the time because I didn't know. But actually that question was kind of coming to me. So rather that, I mean I could apply that to anyone. But actually being able to kind of either sit in stillness and allow those kind of thoughts to come in or journaling. Because we often get trapped in our own limiting beliefs and also our own programming and we touched on like re parenting or like the parent dynamic. You have to kind of really be patient with yourself and uncovering your patterns because you can be in a. You could get to your late 20s and be like, I am making the same mistake again and again and again. Let's put it in the context of like romantic relationships. I'm going for the same person in a different body every time and the results are the same. What am I not seeing? And if actually you allow yourself to journal. And I'm a big believer in like free flow journaling. Have you heard of Julia Cameron's? So she does a thing called Morning Pages. She's an incredible artist and I guess leader, sort of thought leader in the creative space. And the. The morning pages is essentially before you do anything in the morning, you write. You have to have the discipline of doing three pages of writing. This can be madness. It doesn't need to be like Dear Diary, a perfect entry. Don't allow yourself to imagine that someone else is reading it. Just like let madness come out. And it's really interesting firstly what does come out. But also it kind of dispels the worries and the angst and all the stuff that's getting in our way and allows us to just kind of act more freely. So I think that's a really powerful practice. And also going back to the kind of like recognizing your patterns of behavior in the past, like if you journal around it. This is a very long winded way of answering your question. But there's a particular exercise that I find really powerful, which is a timeline exercise. And I'll try and succinctly describe what it is. But if you do like a line down the middle of a page and on either side, just write out significant things that have happened in your life. Don't overanalyze it too much. It could be the first love you had or an interaction with a man at a shop that you never saw again, but for some reason it felt significant. Just like write it all out. And then once you have like as much of your life as you can. Once you have, then pick the most, the ones that feel the most significant and journal around them. And when you journal around them, you want to ask yourself, what part did I play in this? So let's say you start writing about your first love that broke your heart, and immediately you might be like, I didn't play a part in it. I got my heart broken. But just be curious. And then you could say you had like another relationship that didn't go very well. And it's like, what part did I play in this? And the reason that question is so important is because Saturn is about responsibility. And often we can get to a place around our late 20s and as we hit 30, where we feel like we're a victim of our own lives. Like things haven't happened the way we wanted them to, we haven't, you know, got xyz, whatever it might be, and then start comparing. But if we're in that kind of victim consciousness, we can't really move forward to an empowered place. And if you ask yourself, what part did I play in this? You allow yourself to see that you are a co creator of everything that's happening in your life, the good and the bad, and you do it from a place of curiosity rather than shame or blame. And you'd be really surprised what comes up when you do that because suddenly you're like, you recognize the patterns that you are participating in and then you can make the necessary changes.
- [19:29]
B
Really interesting. I like that a lot because, like, I'm a big fan of any type of reframe or way of thinking that puts us in the driver's seat of our life. Now that doesn't mean you can control every single thing that happens to you. It just means that your world view or the lens at which you're looking at everything is from a place where kind of life is happening for you, not to you. Yeah. And I think that's a very empowering thing. Doesn't mean, you know, unfortunate things aren't going to happen or things aren't going to work. Things are always going to work out. It just means a way the stories you tell yourself about those things.
- [20:13]
A little bit more empowering. And by doing that timeline, you're kind of rewriting the meaning of what those things mean for you. And often they can be the things holding you back or creating this negative pattern that means you can't attract a different type of partner or open yourself up to a different opportunity and et cetera.
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A
Exactly.
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B
I want to ask you something so you said before, the question of, like, who am I? Kept coming up for you, and it was uncomfortable, and you didn't know how to answer it. And I actually think that is a very relatable thing. A lot of people wouldn't know how to answer that question. So can you tell me who is Kaggy today?
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A
Oh.
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Kagi today. When I think if I before you, I kind of didn't know where you were going to go with that. But when I think about, like, if you are struggling with that question.
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You want to tap into the essence of who you are. And I always find the best place to go again is, like, going back, like, who were you when you were younger? So for me, when I was younger, I was. I'm a very. And I feel like I am that now. It's like, I'm a super sensitive person. I'm very emotional, which for a lot of my life I thought was a bad thing. And I would try and numb it through various means. I am very intuitive and very perceptive, and I'm. I guess I have a very poetic nature. And when I was younger, I would always channel that kind of sadness or sort of slightly, I guess, a melancholy that I had about me into poetry. And I find, like, as I'm getting older, the more and more I want to harness those aspects of myself that happen to be the aspects that I squashed. And I'm sure that that's also quite a relatable thing. It's like, if you're asking yourself, who am I?
- [22:04]
Look at the parts of you that you tried to kill, really, because they were judged or someone laughed at them, or. And the thing is, these moments in our childhood can seem retrospectively very insignificant, but very small things can make us stop being who we are. And then we try to kind of get in line and not stand out in any way. But then as you kind of go into your adult life, like, you want to stand out, but you just kind of forget the things that make you different and unique or you're afraid to express them. I guess I've got to a point now, and I'm trying to lean into it more and more where, like, poetry for me is what really lights me up and brings me joy and has always been my favorite form of communicating something. And I have to be brave enough to put that out into the world and not be afraid of being judged by it, because that's the thing. Like, even now, if you look at. Through social media, everyone kind of thinks if they carbon copy someone else, they will be Accepted. But you and I have both probably experienced, both personally and through who we've met, that actually you can create the perfect facade. But if it's not aligned with who you truly are in your essence, it won't feel fulfilling.
- [23:30]
B
Yeah, not only that, you won't be able to maintain it. You won't be able to maintain there's only so many things you can go through in life with a mask on. You know, at some point your authentic self is going to come through. And I think if that's. And I always thought about like with, in, with hindsight, I thought about this, you know, I was putting on this people pleasing Persona where I would slightly adjust, maybe what I was talking about, my interests or my excitedness towards something to kind of mold into whatever situation I was in. And what I, what I realize now is that the types of relationships I made with that mask on suited that mask. You know what I mean? They're not authentic to who I am because every time I stepped into those situations, I had to put on that mask to be that perfect fit. And what was interesting was when I started, I guess for me, like this podcast has been a massive catalyst to me coming home to who I am through learning, through connection, through communicating, which is something I'm really passionate about and comes very naturally to me. So what I realized was when I started leaning into that, a lot of relationships just kind of started falling off the face of the earth. And it really upset me at the beginning because I was this people pleaser and I wanted, I didn't, I couldn't wrap my head around not being liked because I was trying so hard to be the liked person in the situation. I was like, I didn't even, you know, I, I'm always kind to that person. I'm always like interested in what they're talking about. But what I realized was being my authentic self meant I wasn't the master version of myself. And that just by pure fact of what that means in a situation meant I wasn't aligned in that scenario. And so relationships just became no longer aligned because I was kind of moving more towards who I was and not a version of myself that served somebody else totally. And, and even in like a professional setting, in terms of the way I work, how I work, what I was doing for work, like everything sort of started to shift and I'm, I've just turned 30. How old are you?
- [25:36]
A
I'm 36.
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B
Okay, so you, you've kind of gone through it and come out the other side. I'm in the midst of it now, I actually feel like I. It's turbulent, but in a good way. Like a lot has changed, but it all feels really aligned for me. Like it feels like everything I've worked hard for, everything I have been pursuing and trying to create for myself is landing. That's how it feels for me now. It doesn't feel like this. I don't know, for a lot of people, maybe it does, but I'm just sharing my personal experience. It doesn't feel like this negative rug's been pulled out from left front center that everything that's happening, maybe to that effect is. Feels really positive.
- [26:16]
A
Yeah. It's important to note because for a lot of people it feels like this rug pulling underneath, like everything being stripped away. What the hell is going on with my life. But for a lot of people it can also be a solidifying of what has been in motion for a while. So if you are in the right relationship, it can just mean like marriage perhaps or children. And if you are pursuing the right things career wise, it can mean promotion or just things expanding. So it's not all doom and gloom. It just. For me, I was just like a little bit off course in most things in my life. So it was like realignment. But you know, it sounds like you had those things in motion for a while. So it's just been a solidifying. But it's not to say that you didn't still go through the pain of, yeah, you know, friendships. It's a huge one. Like in terms of who we connect with in our 20s and our teens. And then suddenly when we go through this transition in life, it's like they're no longer aligned and there's a lot of pain and grief in that. It's like a heartbreak in many ways, but worse. Yeah, but no one's. No, there's no, there's no breakup, there's no conversation. So you're left with this kind of, this void of did I do something wrong? But ultimately it is part of, you know, your life's path that people are going to be there perhaps for a season and you shouldn't have to adjust yourself or not be true to yourself just to fit in. And the way I kind of looked at it, for me it was like.
- [27:47]
The environment that I was in. Whilst it kind of was a big friendship group and was like very fun, it kind of almost felt like I don't want to be sitting at a table, that if I get up, I'm afraid that there's like a dagger in my back, you know, like, I'd rather just be on my own table, to be honest.
- [28:02]
B
Yeah.
- [28:03]
A
And the podcast actually really helped bring in a new community. And it sounds like you've done exactly the same thing because you're talking about what you're passionate about and therefore you're going to be naturally gravitating towards like minded people. And that is, you know, for both of us, such a gift.
- [28:22]
B
It's, it's been the most beautiful project I've ever started. And like, people have asked me, how did you make friends in Dubai? Honestly, the, the two closest girlfriends I have have been guests on the show and it's been one of those things where I've just sat with them for a conversation and instantly it's like, yeah, let's go get coffee on Thursday. And then it just sort of steamrolled from there. And so it's been a really nice way to attract people that, you know, have already been aligned with what, I guess what I like in my life too, totally.
- [28:49]
A
And when you're living from your essence and you're kind of in that alignment, you know, very quickly, who is kind of of, it's like a, it's a charge, it's a chemistry. And it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with someone that you don't connect with. It's just like, it's not for me. And that personally has been such a important place to get to. Because if you told me in my late 20s, like, you're not going to be for everyone, I'd be like, I have to be for everyone. That is how I've kind of survived. Whereas now it's like, yeah, wasn't, wasn't a fit, didn't click, move on. And I think it's so much more valuable to have a handful of people that you really, truly connect with and see you than thousands of people that you don't feel like you can truly be yourself with.
- [29:38]
B
100. I, I definitely used to be that person that had like 100 acquaintances. I'd have my schedule jam packed with coffees just to like maintain, you know, that's just exhausting when I think about it now. But I, I actually really want to ask you something. So on the, on the topic of like, friendship breakups.
- [29:53]
A
Yes.
- [29:54]
B
When you have that moment and you're like, okay, this friendship is no longer for me, it doesn't feel like this person's interested in my life. Like, and that's not to say it's always the other person's fault. Again, you have to ask yourself, what role did I play? Maybe you've just grown apart. Do you have to have a conversation if you don't, how do you make peace with a friendship breakup?
- [30:13]
A
I've thought about this a lot because people have asked me it many times. I personally don't think you have to have a conversation because.
- [30:22]
It could just. It can just go really wrong because then it goes into a sort of who's done what, you know, and sometimes it's just you're on different paths. But I think what's really important and through my experience, is that I believe if you have a true connection with someone and there is love there, because friendship is about love. Just because you go in different directions doesn't mean you don't come back. And you're not going to necessarily come back in the way that it used to be, but you might come back together. And I've had quite a few friendships actually, that during my Saturn return, it just was like. It just was totally misaligned and there was a lot of grief and pain on both sides because it was, I guess, a misunderstanding. They didn't understand what I was going through, what I was kind of about what I was pursuing. I think they thought I'd lost my mind because at the time as well, spirituality, astrology was. It was still relatively neat. Yeah. And they were like, okay, you know, come back to the pub when you're ready sort of thing. But now they've kind of gone through their own, I guess, kind of initiation or change, and they understand. They don't take it as past, like, as personally as they did at the time. And we've come back together in a. In, you know, a different kind of friendship because that love always remains. And I think that that's a really beautiful reminder for people. It's like, maybe it's just a goodbye for right now, but I think having a conversation about it. It depends. It depends if something's actually happened.
- [31:59]
B
Yeah.
- [32:00]
A
Because there's nothing worse than if something has happened and you just don't talk about it, you know?
- [32:05]
B
Sure.
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A
Because it eats away at you.
- [32:07]
B
Yeah.
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A
So that is different. But if it's just we've grown apart. We've grown apart. I don't think you need to sit down and say we've grown apart because I just. I don't think that's ever so awkward. Yeah. Because no one's gonna go. Yep, we have. All right, see you in a few years.
- [32:24]
B
Yeah.
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A
So, yeah, depends if you've done something that you want to Discuss. Definitely, definitely, definitely bring it to the table if they've done something, but otherwise, just let it be.
- [32:34]
B
I do agree. And the other thing I would add is as like a next step to that is you finding closure within yourself because it's a case that you have maybe outgrown an old version of yourself. Right? And like I was saying before, an old version of yourself served that dynamic. You've now grown and evolved. It no longer serves that dynamic. It doesn't mean the other person's wrong or in. You know, you don't have to agree or disagree or like, it's nothing about that. But I find you do have to find that closure in and of yourself. Otherwise it is open loop. That's like, feels really awkward and, you know, it's kind of like, do I call them? Yeah, do I not? So I feel like finding that closure within yourself in lieu of not having a conversation is. Is important for you yourself to, like, move forward. I want to change topics a little bit now to something that feels a bit more present for both of us, and that is we've both recently stepped into motherhood. We both had our first baby within the last six months, which I can personally say has been incredible. But of course, as you would know, as as many of the parents, listening to, it comes with its own challenges of priorities shifting and changing. One of the things you actually shared this on your Instagram, and I really, really aligned with it, and I really wanted to bring the conversation here on the podcast was this idea of choosing between motherhood and ambition. Do you think we have to choose or is there a way to sort of balance both?
- [34:04]
A
Very important question. And for everyone, I think they're going to have a slightly different answer depending on their circumstances, their situation, what support they have. But for me personally, I think you can balance a lot, or I can balance a lot because I'm very lucky to have my own business that I can, you know, tap into, pull away from. So that in itself is a. Is a huge privilege. On the other hand, we've discussed, like, you also don't get maternity leave, so there's no sort of. No one's running the. No one's operating the business if you're sort of pulled away too much. So I didn't really take any time off. I just kind of kept going. But when I say I kept going, I mean, I had Lola, my daughter, like, under the desk. And, you know, at the beginning, they're just like sleeping potatoes. So it was, it was actually kind of. I look back, it's quite a, a magical time because you are just juggling things. And I personally am. I feel like I'm in my happy place when I'm in chaos. Like that is kind of the best lane for me to be in. So motherhood in that sense, I love that. Like I couldn't care less about sort of walking out the house, suddenly sickle. Like I find all that stuff really funny and actually trying to kind of like, okay, what can I, what can I do in this situation? And I just went and hosted a retreat, the Saturn Returns retreat. And I remember when I was pregnant, someone said, I saw you just announced your retreat. And I said, yes. They said, you're not going to feel ready to do that when Lola's only three months. And I was like, okay, well because this is the thing, you get so many opinions. Everyone's like telling you how you're going to feel and it does become pretty relentless and you're just like, please stop advising me. And I have a funny story on that that I'll share in a sec that I've not shared before. But I was like, no, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. And I am so glad I did because it was just the best experience that brought me back to myself. But like, I was very, very lucky that my mum offered to come and she stayed nearby, which I understand is not accessible for many people or possible. But I was able to kind of do the retreat, be fully on with my community and the lovely women that had come, but then also be a mom. And that felt really great for me. And.
- [36:33]
I'm kind of coming to a point now though where it's like, you know, everyone always says like, oh, it goes so fast, like don't, don't miss that. You don't want to regret anything. I don't want to feel like I have been trying to get things going work wise and not prioritizing this fleeting moment in time when she's so little. So that I, it really feels like I'm like, oh, that bit's a bit too much. Let's adjust that next week. So I'm having to constantly do that self inquiry of like, okay, did I need to be going and doing that work that morning? Can I delegate that to someone? And what do I really need to prioritize? Because that's the key really, isn't it? It's like, what do I really need to do and how can I put that into like as little time as possible so it's concentrated, like, good Work, as opposed to just feeling you're kind of scattered and not really in any place. But I do think that you can have it all, just not at the same time, you know. And I'm trying to view this period as I like the idea that everything around pregnancy and motherhood is kind of divinely orchestrated or the nine months that we have growing the child. I think you have to kind of give yourself nine months of recalibrating after. And I also believe that motherhood brings with it this new kind of creative force, this life force that you kind of like, I can't believe I created this. Like I could do anything. And so I'm trying to allow myself to take that time going inward rather than having to rush back out into the world and, you know, seeing what, what things that I come up with in this process rather than, yeah. Forcing it.
- [38:25]
B
They say if you want to get anything done, give it to a mom, because they just get things done with the time that they've got. But you said you were going to share, you were going to.
- [38:34]
A
I was going to say, yeah, because my mom, I remember someone said, oh, become really good at time management. I haven't, I was, I was late to this. Like, I have not. I've never been good with time management and being a mom unfortunately hasn't made me much better.
- [38:51]
B
Consistent, that's what matters.
- [38:53]
A
But like I'm trying, like, I feel like I'm able to keep the right stuff going. But then I've also been very lucky with the projects that have come in and also the things that have kind of gone quiet. So the things that have gone quiet are probably things that I don't need to be prioritizing. Whereas the things that have come in, like the app that I'm doing that has felt like really, really good and exciting, but the story I'll share. So it was like I was maybe a week before my due date and I went into this coffee shop and there was this man next to me and I'd sometimes go in there and do like a bit of work. And this man next to me was like, oh, when are you due? Because I was obviously very pregnant. I was like, I'm due next week. And he, and he started like talking to me a bit. And obviously, as you know, when you're pregnant, people do start up conversations. And then he said to me, he was like, you know, I don't know why anyone wouldn't get a C section. I was like, this is like a 37 year old man, by the way. And I was like, huh? He was like, I mean, you know that you can, you would tear down there, like, why wouldn't you get a C section? I was having this debate with a woman the other day and I literally, at that point I'd had so much unsolicited advice and also I had this like pregnancy rage. I don't know if you had this where I was like, I'm gonna kill this man. Because obviously I was, I was having a, you know, a natural birth and that's what I was planning for. So just to have the fact that a 37 year old man was mansplaining birth to me, I just thought was, that's wild. Completely outrageous. But luckily his dog, he had a dog with him and the dog like jumped up and his coffee spilled all over his laptop and he had to leave because I was at that point where I was like, I'm gonna lose it on someone.
- [40:39]
B
That's an odd, an odd opinion to just sort of project on a stranger who's about to give birth not knowing.
- [40:47]
A
I mean, it was like also, you know, this is the thing with motherhood, there's, there's no right or wrong. And mums can also be very cruel to each other about projecting their own experience. And I found, I've found that quite difficult. But yeah, just having a, a man tell me how I should birth my child a week before was quite a complete stranger was quite interesting.
- [41:15]
B
You know, like having now gone through it, I can so appreciate that everyone comes into this journey and experience with so many different existing thoughts, existing experiences. Maybe it's not your first birth, maybe you had a traumatic first birth. Maybe you're really afraid to give birth. Like there's just so many variables. And I've said this a few times on the show, you know, I ended up having a C section. It wasn't my original preference, it was due to baby's position. And I had to deal with a lot of stigma that I myself had around that procedure, that surgery and come to an acceptance that that was the way it was going to happen for me. But what I've realized is if you have a mum who's calm and happy and just like grounded in her decision, it really doesn't matter how it happens and it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it because she's the one that has to go through the experience. She's the one that has to regulate the baby. That's where they regulate from, you know, when they're first born and she's the One that has to, like, literally your body has to go through it and come out the other side. So really, like, irrespective what your preference is and how beautiful or traumatic your experience was, like, it just has no influence on somebody else's experience. Like, I think there's a place for shared stories and people talking honestly about their thoughts, but it's never a place of you should or shouldn't do it this way.
- [42:42]
A
And I was definitely guilty towards the end of asking everyone. I felt like, even if I wasn't asking people, like, I remember getting a wax and the beauty therapist was like, so this is what happened with my birth. Because it just becomes this like, sharing thing, which is also really lovely. But you can get into this place before you give birth where you're like, it's just, you've got over too much, just too much information. And just like you said, like, everyone has, is going to have a very different birth, a very different experience. And their preference of how that birth is going to go, it's also based on so many different things. Like, for me, I wanted to give birth naturally. I wanted an unmedicated birth. I had the most medicated birth. Luckily, it all happened naturally, but it was touch and go for a C section. And I remember the night that I went into the hospital because I had to have an induction. And I, I felt like I had these like, like two people in my head. I had one. That's the, the space that I'm in sort of with it, with work, which is like holistic, kind of spiritual. Give, give birth in a wood somewhere. Like, you know, like very, very natural kind of no interventions. People were surprised that I wasn't doing a home birth. But then on the other side, I have my, my family who is of like a lot of doctors, pediatric professors, doctors, surgeons. So I had like these very polarizing views. And I remember that.
- [44:07]
To both people thinking, like, what, where's this going to go and what am I going to do? And I remember the doula that I had. She realized how kind of panicked I was and was like, okay, I want you to go back in there and I want you to say yes to the induction. And I want you to do it from a place of empowerment rather than fear. And I found that actually retrospectively so useful because I think a lot of women feel like it's just things are happening to them out of their control. Out of their control. And that's not a place you want to be. Because birth can be not always, but can be a very empowering experience. And I think whatever way it can is going to go. Just allow yourself to feel like I'm, you know, this is the right thing for me and my baby and I am choosing this.
- [44:53]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And again, like, I think for your friends that are pregnant, like, whether you're, whether you've had a baby or not, or you want to share like your sister's story, your mom's story. Oh, my cousin's birth was, was like, just be mindful that I think it's, it's nice to share stories, but just share the story. Don't impose an opinion, don't impose a way. Because you never know what fears that person's having. Even like, you know, if someone was talking to me about a C section, how wonderful it was, they would have no idea that I was. I had a lot of shame around it and I didn't feel like I was giving birth in this way that I wanted to. I felt really calm about going into natural delivery. So I just think you never know what a mother's going through. They go through enough as it is. It's such a life changing, beautiful experience. But just always have like a grain of salt with the way you share things. And I, I never want to discourage sharing because I think conversation, you know, I think we'd both agree that that's really powerful and I think it's. I used to love listening to people's stories, even like to the detail of like, you know, when they found out they were pregnant or when they were feeling really sick or what kind of things they were eating. I just loved hearing many different experiences. But just remember that there are many different experiences.
- [46:05]
A
Yeah, 100. And not to project too much.
- [46:08]
B
Yes, 100%. Well, Kagi, it's been really nice hosting you today. I'm sure this won't be the last time, but really grateful we met and I'm excited to, you know, watch the girls grow together and play together.
- [46:21]
A
They had their first friend date. We did. It was so cute.
- [46:25]
B
But yeah. Thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate you.
- [46:28]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [46:42]
B
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- [46:50]
A
Oh, actually they will have to get up and open the door.
- [46:52]
B
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