← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Alleged Epstein Suicide Note Released After Seven Years
00:40:55
Donald Trump is calling for the prosecution of Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries. Also, a handwritten note purportedly written by Jeffrey Epstein in jail shortly before his death has been unsealed by court order after nearly 7 years, raising new questions about his death. MS NOW’s Ari Melber reports and is joined by Rev. Al Sharpton, Maya Wiley, Benjamin Weiser and Paul Mecurio.
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Maya Wiley
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Ari Melber
Welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melber. Following this truly unusual government disclosure, a jail note purportedly written by Jeffrey Epstein, linked to his suicide is now out for the first time after years of being completely secret in the government vault. One of the many developments in this story that has people asking questions tonight I have a breakdown, factual, objective on what we're learning from that note. That's coming up from the questions about his death to the irregular process overseeing, of course, by the Trump doj. We begin, though, with the system blinking red. The DOJ has failed to win a single revenge case that Trump has demanded so far. Many tossed and facing court setbacks. But the president's barreling forward, heading into the midterms with new calls for likely illegal selective prosecution against his main opponent. In these midterms. This is not normal and we will not treat it like it's normal. We will make sure that people understand that what you see on your screen is a Putin style crackdown, even if it's failing, and a version of a potential abuse of power to meddle with these midterms. Trump calling to prosecute Democratic leader Jeffries. So as voters assess a choice of who should run Congress, current Speaker Johnson or Democratic Leader Jeffries, Trump is pushing to prosecute the Democrat who would be on track to become speaker if his party wins. And current polls favor the Democrats, which is worth about as much as polling. We're not there yet, but many Republicans have been retiring and bracing for a loss to the Democrats. I want to be clear here up top, beginning of our news show here of what this is, Donald Trump is Recycling the discredited playbook he's used before. He's using innuendo and no, the noise, the suggestion even of a probe saying, well, somebody's under criminal investigation. Just that we've seen that have an impact in past cycles to try to muddy an opponent. If it's familiar, remember this was the stunt he was first impeached for in the first term. Feels like a long time ago. Remember, that was about abusing presidential powers to demand another country announce a probe of Biden, who was someone that he saw in fact presciently as a potential opponent in a future election. Now Trump's demanding our own country probe Jefferies over baseless claims that I'm not going to repeat here on the news because we have standards. And back then, Trump was preparing for, as mentioned, a race possibly against Biden, which is what he got. Now the midterms are a race against essentially Jeffries and House Democrats. This is an impeachment level event, even if Donald Trump at times has gotten everyone sort of inured, tired, fatigued by just how much she does this stuff. And some people say, well, if it doesn't work, just move on. Well, the Biden one didn't work either, but it was a whole impeachment over this same playbook. And now the DOJ veteran who prosecuted Trump for other activities in the first term, Jack Smith warning about a corrupted doj. We have a Department of justice today. It targets people for criminal prosecution simply because the president doesn't like them. We have a department that fails to investigate cases because they might uncover facts that are inconvenient for narratives the president would like to press. That is a careful and respected legal mind there with broad experience. He's prosecuted members of both parties. He worked in the division of the DOJ that deals with those toughest cases to be politically nonpartisan. So it means something. It's his sharpest criticism of the DOJ since leaving his post, is how the Times put it. Trump demanding Smith also be prosecuted for that prior work. And the Times says, according to their sources, Smith does expect those charges to likely come. Against this backdrop, we have Pam Bondi's acting replacement asked about these questions and this type of concern, whether it comes from Smith or Obama or others, about Donald Trump doing what they once called lawfare or weaponization or what legally is sometimes called selective prosecution. You can't just order up Putin style indictments of your enemies. Look at this exchange.
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Commercial Announcer
In a recent interview, former President Barack
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Ari Melber
Obama said, and I quote, the White House shouldn't be able to direct the attorney general to go around prosecuting whoever the president wants to prosecute. You're the attorney general.
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Commercial Announcer
What is your response?
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Ari Melber
Well, coincidentally, I happen to have, I think a copy of our Constitution. So if we want, we can read our Constitution together. Article two says the executive power shall be vested in a president of the United States of America. It does not say that the attorney general stands off to the side. That was a silly exchange. I'll just remind everyone, even in Donald Trump's controversial first terms, first term, I should say, none of his attorneys general claimed at the time that the president could direct prosecutions of people like the classic current example in other countries that we don't want to be like, you can't run a Putin style program to muddy or eliminate the opposition. Elections don't work and they're not free and fair. If the sitting leader, a Putin or a Trump, goes around saying, oh, Biden might be the nominee, let's get a probe opened on him, which is what he asked for in Ukraine. It was impeached though the people who said that had to be dealt with, that there had to be consequences. It proved to be right because you had dealt with it back then. Trump lost the later election, but he's back at the same tactic. And again, I can't underscore this enough. It's not some random Democrat he's picking right now going into midterms that he trails in. He's going after the face of the Democrats in the midterms. Jeffries. Now what you see there is Pam Bodi's replacement getting closer to suggesting that maybe that kind of selective prosecution could be okay, as he vaguely quotes the Constitution, it is not okay. It doesn't work still. Because while they want you to believe that nothing works anymore, and sometimes I admit my colleague Rachel Maddows had several big reports on this, how they have taken apart pieces of the government and made them work less. That's happened. But our courts actually and our grand juries and the citizens who still form the bulwark against this kind of Putin style abuse, those things are actually working. Don't take my word for it. It is precisely why that acting attorney general reaching into his pocket like he's just learned how to do prop work, why he has inherited a failing enemies list caseload from the now former Attorney General Pam Bondi. That's what's up, as we say. And I want to bring in our special guest on this important topic, Reverend Sharpton, of course, Politics Nation host on ms, now president of the National Action Network. And he's worked throughout his career on what equal and fair justice means in the courts. And our counselor, Maya Wiley, of course, former civil prosecutor at sdny, CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. Maya, I emphasize the link from Jeffries where there's no basis for prosecution to Joe Biden where there was no basis for prosecution and he got impeached over this kind of move. What does it tell us that some people think this is normalized, even though it still is failing?
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Maya Wiley
Well, what it really tells us, particularly about Todd Blanche, is there is a way you audition for a position of power in the Trump administration, and it isn't by paying attention to the Constitution of the United States of America. It's by paying attention to what Donald Trump wants. I mean, that was a bit of theater that he knows well as an attorney. The U.S. constitution does not say the executive branch. And the executive, that is the president has the power of persecution. That would simply say that one article could negate the Bill of Rights. That is not a constitution, and he knows it. But this really goes back to the primary point. You know, this is a time when they are gaslighting the nation about what is normal, but most of us know this is not normal.
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Ari Melber
I mentioned what Obama said, and Smith and Obama hit that same point. Take a look. The White House shouldn't be able to direct the attorney general to go around prosecuting.
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MSNow Premium Announcer
The president wants prosecutors.
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Ben Weiser
Right.
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Paul Mercurio Peabody
Because technically it's under the executive branch.
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Ari Melber
The norm is that it's independent. The nor. The idea is that the attorney general is the people's lawyer. It's not the president's consigliere.
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Al Sharpton
I think that that is clearly what we're looking at here, that this president is operating as if the attorney general is his consigliere. I also think the danger in this is that we are about to see the country celebrate the 250th anniversary of the country. I thought, you know, I went to public schools in New York, but I thought I learned that they were fighting against King George and this type of dictatorship or this type of ruling. So it's really against what this country stood for with the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence that is being celebrated in July. The other thing that I think that people shouldn't miss, we are talking about a president who is a convicted felon, 34 counts, convicted of sexual abuse in the state courts, and they had liable.
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Ari Melber
Yeah, I always have to say.
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Al Sharpton
And had to close down Trump University. So if there's any president that shouldn't try to play fast with probes and indictments and investigations. And it's one that has been found guilty. And he claimed that he was the object of a political indictment. So it was political when they convicted you. A jury of his peers, not the prosecutor. The prosecutor prosecuted him, Jury of his peers convicted him. But now he's going to turn and have the suspect people be people that were never indicated in any crimes when he's sitting there as the first President in the 250 years of this country that was convicted of crimes before he took office.
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Ari Melber
Right. And what you see is his effort to abuse the system so that people are hurt by these cases, even though most of them, as I've said, are already failing, none have won, and people even can lose track, which is why we have our sort of sign of the times chart. I want to show Senator Kelly, who stood up to this and was a brave veteran and all that, and then the chart again. But first, here's Senator Kelly. Last year, I said something that the president didn't like, that service members need
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Ben Weiser
to follow the law.
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Ari Melber
It's literally written into the DoD's law of war manual. In response, the president said I should be prosecuted and hanged. Then he tried to throw me in jail. And I can't think of anything that's more un American. And we're living during these times where it's very serious. You look at these charges. I mean, again, on the lower left, Mr. Kelly, who you just heard, there's the senator and his colleagues. That bid failed rev, but it was designed to intimidate other bids. We have Don Lemon, of course, an independent journalist, former cnn, former government officials on the right, those cases proceed. And so when Trump tries to add Jeffries and others and say to the new attorney general audition, oh, well, we're going to need to have even these. It seems that he thinks he's found a loophole where to him losing two years later is still a win. If he can mess with this many
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Al Sharpton
people and cost them considerable amounts of money to defend themselves against a probe, that is a fishing expedition trying to come up with a case rather than investigate a charge. And when we look at the fact that this is bigger, and I hope the American public understands that is bigger than Donald Trump, this is about how this country is going to run, because if he's permitted do this, he's setting a precedent that undermines the very principles that the country stand for. So this is more than those of us that politically disagree with him or disagree with his policies. This is about are we going to be a country where the president has absolute power to go after political enemies for political reasons and tell people to find or manufacture a crime in order to get rid of my enemies rather than having due process, which is what the country claimed to be founded on?
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Maya Wiley
Well, I'm going to aim and corner the Rev right here. And I want to add to it because the persecution isn't only people who are in power. The persecution is actually coming from people who protest. I mean, when we consider what's happening right now with the Southern Poverty Law center in an indictment that we have had former prosecutors, including our own Joyce White Vance, in full disclosure. We were just in a press briefing just a day ago about this indictment, which is beyond flimsy and even having Vanita Gupta, the former assistant attorney general, say it is an illegitimate prosecution. But what it's about isn't even whether or not you win the conviction. What it's about is bringing organizations and individuals to court in order to scare others into silence. This is extremely dangerous because it's also coming for the money that resources legitimate advocacy and dissent. And again, to Rev's point, about what we are celebrating in this 250th anniversary and coming from the community that is the civil rights community that we come from, we know what it means to come to people on the ground and bring this persecution. And you start with the people in power to try to silence and then you keep going down the line till you get to ordinary citizens. And to Reverend's point, it won't just stop with us.
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Ari Melber
Yeah. All very important, which is not forget
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Al Sharpton
this is by a person who pardoned people who really obstructed the domain of the U.S. capitol, were savagely beating property, desecrating furniture there and beating policemen. He pardoned them. They're not criminals. But Hakeem Jeffries, who's had a stellar record, or the others, they are suspects. But people that did absolutely reckless, violent acts were given a pardon.
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Ari Melber
All really important. I want to thank Rev and Maya very much. Later in the show, how Trump is losing the comedy wars with Colbert digging. No one knows what Donald Trump is thinking. Not even Donald Trump. If he knew what he was thinking, he might let it slip. That's why he keeps his mind perfectly blank, like nature's most cunning opponent, the goldfish. But first we turn to a story that is absolutely incredible in the sense of also hard to believe. I'm going to walk through this alleged Epstein suicide note, why the government held it for seven years. And a special Guest from the Times who helped get it unsealed. When we're back in 90 seconds. A major new development in the long running Jeffrey Epstein saga which has already revealed so many government failures. Tough questions for the Trump doj. The mismanagement that we all saw of Epstein's initial death, the secrecy and the failures to pursue accountability in many directions. Now we turn to something that is truly unusual. I know in the news and in this recent era you hear that a lot. But as someone who's practiced law and covered law in the Epstein case, you almost never see something like this. The news tonight here. Seven years after Epstein was found dead, the government has now made this extremely late disclosure of a handwritten note purportedly by Epstein from jail. Going to get into this. That is what it looks like. That's the actual handwriting. The Times reports that Epstein's cellmate said he discovered the note in July 2019 after he was found unresponsive with the strip of cloth wrapped around his neck. So to be clear, the note that I'm about to read to you is from around the time that the jail documented Epstein as a potential suicide risk, but not his later death. They put him on suicide watch after he was found injured in his cell in July 2019. And that first incident was significant because the jail later failed to follow suicide watch rules. And this ended after just six days and a few weeks later, Epstein was found dead. This is part of our timeline that shows, as you can see, a lot of different events, but specifically, if you look at the very far left point, cellmate tried to kill him. It was the government record of that July account that I'm mentioning here. Government later ruled the death of suicide, but there were so many irregularities, as we've reported now in that first incident. Recall that Epstein had told staff his cellmate tried to kill him. And that's what government records show. But then later he also told officers that he didn't really know what occurred. Epstein's cellmate denied it and said Epstein did try to hang himself. I want to give you that context so you understand exactly what we're reading from because for the first time we have a newly revealed document viewed as a potential suicide note from that first incident. This is critical evidence and it is a scandal that this was held secret for seven years until last night. I have more on that piece of this story. But now with that background, here is the single page evidence. It reads, they investigated me for a month, found nothing. So 16 year old charges resulted. It is a treat to be able to choose one's time to say goodbye. What you want me to do? Bust out crying? You see that written there and then at the end in caps. No fun. Not worth it. Now, from an investigative or journalistic view, you take a note like this and you reason through it. Clearly the tone reflects a negative view of the case and this individual's future. A writer is asserting that they are going to choose how to depart or say goodbye, which reflects a kind of suicidal intent. Now, government sources and the journalists who've looked at this have not been able to corroborate that this note was definitely by Epstein. We don't have, for example, recent forensics or any kind of good chain of custody all these years later. We can also tell you the note uses similar wording to Epstein's past writings and emails, which, of course, were not public at the time. And that makes it less likely that a random person in 2019 would be able to replicate his exact speech. Unless you think that he talked like that all the time and they overheard it. But it's certainly less likely. We have emails where Epstein used the very phrase, what you want me to do, bust out crime. Another note found in Epstein's jail cell has some similar handwriting and the all caps phrase no fun, that is similar to this note. And again, like any investigation, you say that adds, it bolsters the view that this was really Epstein's handwriting, that he did write this. It doesn't authenticate it. Right. It's not at the level where you say, oh, we have DNA, or a video of him writing it, which from an investigative view, would be higher corroboration. But this is not some shoddy, easily debunked fake. Now for the long road to get here. This note was sealed in an unrelated case that involves Epstein's former cellmate. It's only out now because intrepid New York Times journalists pressed to unseal it, and a judge finally did that at the end of the day yesterday. Now, given the conflicting history of the initial July incident, if there was a real note that shows Epstein's intent to take his life, that adds the evidence of suicide. Remember, there was a lot of government secrecy and conflicting evidence, as we showed in this death timeline report that has dogged what was then the Trump DOJ's oversight and also raised questions about how the Biden DOJ dealt with this in a later report. So there's been questions about the cause of his death. And obviously, as I've said before, any legitimate question about whether he actually didn't take his life or there was foul play is a huge deal, one that the Congress ultimately viewed as legitimate in reopening this issue with the Epstein file section that required new material. And then of course we had the failed prison protocols and the botched crime scene. More than six years later, key details of Jeffrey Epstein's death remain unresolved.
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Maya Wiley
I'd like to see an investigation to understand how this was permitted to happen.
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Ari Melber
There's a lot that's been wrong with this case from the very first inception to this now embarrassing in custody death. There's some significant questions on how somebody who it was such a high profile defendant could be found dead and how this could have happened. This is not adequate as far as I'm concerned. These are real questions. And the Trump and then later Biden DOJ from our review and a lot of public evidence that we have basically tried to put the questions to rest. To wrap this up, then the historic unusual release of the Epstein files which gave us DOJ internal materials and of course the emails revealed more mistakes and secrecy from within the government, starting with the Trump doj, including how they mishandled the death scene, shredded documents. All of this was in our timeline before we even got last night's new note. As for the failed protocols, remember federal guards under the Trump DOJ did not do the nightly inmate checks. They also failed to check fingerprints or DNA tests in the cell after Epstein's death. CBS reporting on that noticeable oversight. I want you to remember the medical examiner did rule this a suicide and cited no evidence of defensive wounds. The kind of thing that you might find if there were foul play. Only one camera was operating inside the area outside Epstein's cell block. You can see here just one in green according to the CBS account. And under two administrations, the DOJ ultimately said there wasn't foul play and there weren't any people near Epstein's cell that night. Now if the government is right about that, if no other person got near him, that would corroborate suicide rather than another person perhaps doing foul play. The only footage we have from the night he died, which was again released in this unusual Epstein files the government didn't think we'd ever see. What you see there, that apparent orange flash which is suspicious, it suggests possibly at least a person in orange. Typically the inmates attire was somehow on the loose in that very area at 10:39pm, something that the DOJ deny. I want you to also know that suicide as you see is there from the sources, but others, including people involved with Epstein's defense do believe it was foul play. If this long secret note was written by Epstein, it does bolster evidence of at least his suicidal intent in July, weeks before his death. It is remarkable and a problem that the government had this note for this long and for a series of reasons we're going to get into held it back, but now we have it. New York Times Benjamin Weiser is the key reporter on this story and joins us next.
- [25:32]
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- [26:02]
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Ari Melber
Breaking news coming out of the Iran war and ceasefire issues the Iranian military says it's fired on US Warships in the Strait of Hormuz. There is an ongoing declared ceasefire between the countries. US Central Command indicates they intercepted the attacks as US Destroyers were traveling the strait. They also targeted Iranian military facilities. They say no U.S. assets were struck. We cannot tell you what this does for the holding of this ceasefire, but we are of course watching any indications out of the region. I want to tell you that's breaking news and we're going to continue to follow that story. While now on that Epstein note in the report I just shared, I want to bring in, as promised, the New York Times Federal Court's reporter Ben Weiser. He's been covering this newly released Epstein Note that is believed to relate to his suicide. He was part of this team at the Times that actually got a federal judge to release it. So we talk about the role of journalism these days for about four to six weeks you've been working to get this out and last night you had success. What does the revelation tell us?
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Ben Weiser
Well, the revelation tells us that there was a Purported suicide note. If you believe it's genuine, it would give us a real window onto Epstein's mindset and that for unusual and interesting reasons, it remains secret for roughly seven years. The actual physical document, and you know it. With all the debates about Epstein, how he died, the conspiracy theories, this note never made it into the conversation. And you know, it depends. I don't think it will change people's views, but it. My colleagues, Steve Eater and Jen Ransom, I have sort of come to conclude that it's another puzzle piece and we just have to figure out, you know, where it fits.
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Ari Melber
Right. You say a puzzle piece, which is often how journalists and investigators look at something like this because there was conflicting evidence. I mean, you have someone who said that he was attacked, that got a lot of traction, as I mentioned. Then you have other accounts that suggest he took his life. Let's read the note again. It says, they investigated me for a month, found nothing. So a 16 year old charge is resolved. That's his view of what the case was. It's a treat to be able to choose one time to say goodbye. What you want me to do? Bust out crying? No fun, not worth it. What do you think this shows about his state of mind at the time? If this is by him.
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Ben Weiser
I was covering, I covered the federal court and was covering the Epstein prosecution as it began in early July of 2019. And my recollection is that he was denied bail twice by the federal judge. They made very complex, sophisticated bail proposals. Judge said, no, you're staying in jail pending trial. And my conclusion was that again, if this note is genuine, this sort of gives a view that gives a perspective that Epstein may have concluded he was not going to be leaving jail ever, and that he felt he had no more control over his destiny, which he had always had, as we know, in the decades before, he had been, you know, sentenced to some form of jail in Florida and pretty much hadn't served any time. This was different. This was the federal, federal jail. And, and it didn't look like he was going anywhere. And that might explain his, his perspective.
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Ari Melber
And so to you it bolsters the case that he took his life?
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Ben Weiser
Yes.
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Ari Melber
I want to talk about the process because it's. I've tried to emphasize to people I've never seen this kind of core evidence held this long. Have you?
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Ben Weiser
It's hard to say. I mean, no.
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Ari Melber
In a case you've covered. No.
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Ben Weiser
Well, as you know, secrecy pervades many cases, but I've never seen a piece that seems so pivotal. If not to that case, that it was under seal and to the Epstein case. Stay secrecy.
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Ari Melber
Yeah. I mean, there's stuff that never comes out, like grand jury, but I've never seen something this important be held and then come out seven years later. Really striking. I want to discuss and report briefly on that. So stay with me with the note sealed as part of this Epstein cellmate case. And that cellmate has said, and this is what Ben was reporting on, he discovered the note, those that period in July before Epstein was found dead. Now, this is interesting and new tonight, a spokesperson from the current Trump DOJ telling the Times the agency had never seen this note, even amid all of the scrutiny in the files that they do have. And that's important because the DOJ later, including under the Biden administration, did this full report about Epstein's attention and Death released in 23. It would seem that according to the current DOJ, they didn't even have this, which raises questions about whether that report and the evidence they had was incomplete and whether there were people inside the government who, quite frankly, didn't want to turn over every rock. I put that to you because you're in this a watchdog report that's looking at whether or not an inmate actually took their own life that didn't get this alleged inmate suicide note that was in the government's possession. I mean, this came from in the jail. Tells you what?
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Ben Weiser
Well, in the report you're referring to, I believe is the DOJ Office of Inspector General. Yeah, Horowitz, which was quite extensive. And you're right, there was, you know, you search that. There's no evidence that this note was ever examined by them, nor by any investigators who were looking into the Epstein.
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Ari Melber
And that suggests what?
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Ben Weiser
Well, one thing it suggests is that as we know from the record, there were already huge problems in the way bop, the Bureau of Prisons, managed Epstein's weeks in detention. You know, as has been reported, they, you know, he talked himself out of suicide watch after roughly 30 hours after his first attempt at suicide. And then he was supposed to always be with another cellma and the jail let him be alone. The day before he committed, he took his life. And one wonders, if BOP had known about this note, would they have treated him more seriously, taken more seriously the potential threat that he actually was suicidal?
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Ari Melber
It was his power that allowed him to evade these rules, which in that theory, the case would be potentially what he used to then take his life. That's the theory of the case, which is not how it's supposed to work. And that does, according to the DOJ rules, also cheat the system and the process and the victims out of what was supposed to be justice. Right.
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Ben Weiser
As we know, the victims never got their day in court. Epstein didn't get his day in court either, but he chose not to, whereas the victims, you know, had no choice.
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Ari Melber
So having done this story, 30 seconds left. You now view it as far more likely he took his life than you might have thought previously.
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Ben Weiser
I believe in evidence, and as we both know, there have been so many theories that have been spawned in part by the negligence and problems in the BOP surrounding his death. But I'm waiting for evidence that's really to the contrary. And right now, as you've said, the medical examiner has found that he took his own life. This note, if authentic, and you went through some of the reasons it appears to be, would bolster that position.
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Ari Melber
Yeah, Ben Weiser, we talk about journalism. You and your publication did this intrepid work and now we know more than we otherwise would, which is, I think, why we need newspapers. And if folks want to or choose to, they can subscribe to the New York Times. I say we rely on this reporting a lot. I appreciate you coming in.
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Ben Weiser
Thank you very much, Ari.
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Ari Melber
We'll be right back with something a little lighter. Trump losing the comedy wars.
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Ari Melber
Happens.
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- [35:06]
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- [35:38]
Ari Melber
According to White house officials, the U.S. and Iran are closing in on an end to the war. At last an end of the conflict and commemorated. I will now release the ceremonial dove of peace. In normal times, that's comedy. It's also civic commentary and in a healthy democracy that would just continue. And you can joke or be serious about matters of life and death and war. Colbert has a huge following and he of course has made it very clear where he stands on Donald Trump. The whole country would be with him right now when you check the polling on the war. Now we mention this right now because Colbert goes off CBS in just two weeks. The show was canceled at a certain moment after a MAGA friendly Ellison family bought CBS's parent company. And there are many folks who find that suspicious. That will always tell you all the available evidence. The folks over at CBS said this type of change to late night was already in the works and there were financial reasons. Others, including people who know about late night, like the icon David Letterman who hosted the original show that we're talking about here, say something else is afoot. Letterman says that those execs are lying weasels over the claim that this was just finances. And there's a wider crackdown by the Trump administration to abuse its government power over the airwaves to do censorship. And it's of course at the behest of a leader who can't take a joke. Jimmy Kimmel facing the FCC right now, which is trying to threaten or cajole that company controlling his show to maybe censor or cancel him, which is a reboot of a fight they had. The Times notes Trump is losing these comedy wars. His magic is gone. These days he looks lost. The fact that Trump is less sure footed as a comedian, maybe a harbinger of a more significant uncertainty, an inability to land the punchlines because he can no longer identify the right setups. And that's why, as we've long observed on this program, culture, comedy, the arts, they are not only important, they sometimes reach more people to shape our view of our politics, what kind of leadership we want, than even the regular news and congressional coverage. With all that in mind, I want to bring in special guests for this topic. Paul Mercurio Peabody, an Emmy award winning comic book. He's also a lawyer. He knows his Way around the First Amendment issues and hosts the Permission to Speak podcast. I'll mention he's worked on several late night comedy shows, including the Daily show and the aforementioned Colbert. But he's here as a personal guest in your own capacity. Welcome.
- [38:26]
Ben Weiser
Yeah.
- [38:26]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
Great to see you again. Thanks for having me.
- [38:28]
Ari Melber
Let's start with that wider point that Donald Trump himself at times has been seen as an entertainer.
- [38:34]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
Yes.
- [38:35]
Ari Melber
And politically and culturally. It's not landing for him the same way.
- [38:39]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
No, it's not. Because I think he's lost perspective. He's in the bubble, but I'm not sure if he's losing the war for this reason. Look, satire always crosses a line. It should. And there's a history of satire and humor having power to be a check on power going back to Mark Twain and beyond.
- [38:55]
Ari Melber
Right.
- [38:56]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
But we seem to be going from it being protected free speech to prohibited criticism.
- [39:01]
Ari Melber
Yeah.
- [39:02]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
And to the point where uncertainty is lodged. You and I are both lawyers. Trump's notorious for these frivolous lawsuits. He knows they're not going to go anywhere. Twofold effect. They emotionally and financially drain the person. Secondly, they put you on your heels. So let's say this FCC investigation right now that's happening regarding ABC and Kimmel doesn't go anywhere. It's still, I'm worried, has a chilling effect. It's like chipping away slow. Like these lawsuits do. They chip away. They create uncertainty. They create a little censorship. In your mind, there was a time when a comedian went, whoa, is this monologue going to bomb? And now you're like, oh, is this monologue going to kill and get me indicted?
- [39:40]
Ari Melber
Like, that's where we. And even, and even pushing people to think of that as a risk. Right, right. And they say, oh, well, maybe we'll do something else. I want to show with someone, you know, Colbert, what, what President Obama said. Yeah, we can survive a lot. Bad policy, funky elections. There. There's a bunch of stuff that, you know, we, we can overcome. We can't overcome the politicization of the criminal justice system, the, the awesome power of the state. You, you can't have a situation in which whoever's in charge of the government starts using that to go after their political enemies. And we can hear the, the applause of the folks who get to watch the clips. And that's, it's.
- [40:26]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
And that was me. I was in the audience.
- [40:27]
Ari Melber
Yeah, you were. But this matters in the discourse. And it matters for the reason you say that we won't always see it. I mean, some of the stuff with Kimmel is so brazen. But the rest is a question about whether the public is getting the actual debate we would get when there's this much, according to many people, wrong with. With what Trump's doing and the gas prices and everything, right?
- [40:50]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
So, look, look, this is the second time he's going after Kimmel. Even I, maybe I was naive thought, okay, he's. He got. He learned his lesson the first time, and. And he hasn't. Right. Which tells me this is his strategy. Chip away, as I mentioned. But we also have to look at ourselves as a society. We have played into the hand of becoming this tribal nation of politics.
- [41:10]
Ari Melber
Right?
- [41:11]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
You're on the left. I don't believe in. If I don't believe in everything you believe in, I'm the devil to you, and vice versa. Well, guys like him, autocratic leaders like him, they seize on that vacuum. They seize on that tension and they foment it. And they say to people, I can be your savior. Julius Caesar did it, right? He played the elites against the lower class. Ultimately, it all crumbled. But that's exactly what's happening here. And we as a nation have to be a little bit careful and a little culpable, frankly, and not. And not play into that hand.
- [41:41]
Ari Melber
But do you think listen to each
- [41:42]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
other a little bit more? Because he prays off of that, and that's what he's doing with all of this First Amendment stuff in comedy right now.
- [41:48]
Ari Melber
And do you think the comics, though, particularly because so much of this goes viral these days, have helped shape the reality and been an antidote? And when you look at war propaganda versus the punchlines, it seems like the public has figured out quickly, yeah, no, we believe the comics or the reality over the, you know, don't believe you're lying.
- [42:07]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
But if you told me 10 years ago, look, 15 years ago, you'd be in a comedy club, you could tell a joke about Republicans, let's say the room's 50, 50. Democrat, Republican. You could tell a joke about Republicans. Everybody would laugh. You could tell a joke about Democrats. Everybody laugh. Now you do a joke about Republicans. Half the room laughs, the other half laughs. I did not see coming this sort of comedy ecosystem of the right and the left. Like, you know, Fox News is basically right. They've got comedic shows that are right. The left has the left. And that's where I think it becomes problematic. But I think we need to broaden it beyond comedy. The people at home need to be worried. If you think it's stopping here, if Disney can Be shaken. What's going to keep the guy? There's going to be a knock on your door for social. Look at Comey.
- [42:50]
Ari Melber
Paul. This is why we book comedians at the end of the hour. So you can tell everyone at home you should be scared. Knock on the door. In closing, I want you to hold up one of these pieces of paper and I want to tell people at home, as you said, this is how we know he's more of a come in close. He's more of a comedian than a lawyer at this point in his career. Because you guys, six Crayolas, six different colors.
- [43:14]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
This is the summary.
- [43:15]
Ari Melber
We love it. I'm sharing a little bit extra lawyer.
- [43:17]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
I'm always going to be an anal lawyer.
- [43:18]
Ari Melber
Yeah, but lawyers don't do five. I mean, this looks like a child's art project. And we love you. We love you for it, Paul.
- [43:26]
Paul Mercurio Peabody
This is a manifesto.
- [43:27]
Ari Melber
We will be right back. Great to see you. And another brief update on this exchange of fire in the street of Hormuz. President Trump posting online in response, we just had this happen this hour. And he says, quote, we'll knock them out a lot harder and a lot more violently in the future if they don't get their deal signed fast. Again, this is coming off an Iranian military report that said it fired on US Warships in the strait. There is a declared ceasefire. We have information from the United States Central Command that they intercepted those attacks. U.S. destroyers were traveling through the strait and targeting Iranian military facilities. They say no U.S. assets were struck. Based on recent events, it is the kind of skirmish that is serious, but does not sound like something that is going to disrupt the entire ceasefire. But everyone watching it obviously closely, that's the information we have. We will continue to follow the story. And I'll be right back. Thanks for joining the Beat.
- [44:26]
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