Attorney General Bondi Testifies Before Senate in First Hearing Since Comey Indictment

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Attorney General Bondi Testifies Before Senate in First Hearing Since Comey Indictment
Date: October 7, 2025
Host: Ari Melber
Notable Guests: Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Jelani Cobb, Adam Friedland, Pam Bondi

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Brief Overview

This episode centers on Attorney General Pam Bondi's highly anticipated and contentious testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee—her first since the James Comey indictment. Ari Melber dissects the dramatic hearing, featuring pointed questioning from Senate Democrats about DOJ independence, accountability, partisan prosecutions, and transparency, particularly regarding political violence and high-profile cases like Jeffrey Epstein. The program threads in discussions with Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, media analysts Jelani Cobb, and podcaster Adam Friedland, analyzing the implications for the rule of law, political rhetoric, and U.S. democracy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Contentious Testimony: Bondi Faces the Senate Judiciary (01:00–09:07)

• Bondi's Refusal to Answer:
  Bondi regularly declined to answer direct Senate questions—about DOJ-WH communications, the legality of military actions, and ongoing or controversial prosecutions.
  • Example: "I am not going to discuss any internal conversations with the White House." —Pam Bondi (01:33)
• Accusations of Stonewalling:
  Senator Whitehouse accuses Bondi of establishing a "new low in outright witness evasion," refusing even to gesture toward claims of privilege.
  • Quote: "She didn't even bother to hand waves about privileges. She just said, I'm not going to answer that question." —Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (03:35)
• Partisan Exchanges & Tensions:
  Bondi responds to judicial oversight with sarcasm and partisan barbs, e.g., redirecting Senator Whitehouse’s question about following laws to a quip:
  • Quote: "I wish that you loved your state of California as much as you hate President Trump." —Pam Bondi (01:47)
• Comey Indictment Scrutiny:
  The basis for indicting James Comey is debated, with Bondi deflecting and casting aspersions on the “liberal” grand jury.
  • Quote: "Comey was indicted in the Eastern District of Virginia by, I may point out, one of the most liberal grand juries in the country." —Pam Bondi (05:01)
  • Critique: "How do you know... what their political predilections are?... It's like a small telltale of what a wonky hearing. This was just weird." —Adam Friedland (05:30)
• Accountability Tools:
  Senator Whitehouse lays out next steps: written questions, parallel FOIA requests, and persistence as mechanisms to force transparency.
  • "Persistence kind of pays off. It took me years to get to the bottom of the botched fake Kavanaugh supplemental background investigation process, but I did. So you just have to keep digging." (06:26)

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2. DOJ Independence, Prosecutor Vulnerabilities, and Political Vendettas (07:17–08:51)

• Independence Eroding:
  Concerns mount about the DOJ being used as a tool for partisan vendettas, risking lawyer disbarments and professional consequences.
  • Quote: "Lawyers put their tickets at risk when they engage in that kind of behavior. Bar associations have repeatedly gone after various lawyers who violated their oaths in return for loyalty to Trump." —Sen. Whitehouse (07:45)
  • "These cases go forward... and as they get discovery and as they ask questions... that can become quite a calamity for the prosecuting office as they dig relentlessly through all the failings buried in that case." (07:45)

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3. Political Violence in America: Causes, Trends, and Official Responses (21:05–37:53)

• Data and Motives:
  Special report summarizes decades of data on political violence, using law enforcement and academic sources (e.g., Bruce Hoffman).
  • 1990s: Right-wing anti-government violence (OKC bombing)
  • Since 2000s: Far-right extremism has led five times more attacks and six times as many deaths as far-left groups ([22:05])
  • FBI/DOJ removed data under Bondi showing right-wing violence as the main threat
• Narrative Correction:
  Ari Melber underscores the need for evidence over partisan interpretation—details context of motives for attacks from Pulse Nightclub to January 6th, 2021.
  • Quote: "Right wing and anti government violence is the most common political violence. It is also the most deadly." —Ari Melber (22:05)
• Political Leadership's Rhetoric:
  National leaders from both parties at times condemn violence, but Trump’s responses diverge when violence targets opponents—minimizing, joking, or outright defending.
  • "Trump has responded to this kind of violence by minimizing it or claiming to quote joke about it and sometimes outright defending it." (32:12)
• Rewarding Violence:
  The episode details Trump’s pardoning of January 6th convicts, the implications for rule of law, and the normalization of political violence.
  • "Frankly, you won't stop political violence by rewarding it. You have to punish it to deter it. That's how the law works." —Ari Melber (36:30)

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4. Media, Journalism, and Government Accountability (11:05–20:58)

• Pentagon & Press Freedoms:
  Jelani Cobb and Adam Friedland discuss the Pentagon’s failed attempt to restrict press reporting, drawing parallels to the Nixon era.
  • Quote: "If you are only publishing the things that you have authorization to publish, that is called a press release. But that's not what we do." —Jelani Cobb (17:43)
• Journalistic Solidarity and Competition:
  Dialogue explores press alliances when threatened, referencing historic situations (e.g., “The Post,” Pentagon Papers), but notes failures to unify in the past ([20:20]).
  • Quote: "Is there no brotherhood in... the fraternity of journalism? Are the other news organizations just competitors?" —Adam Friedland (19:25)
  • Jelani Cobb responds: "A lot of times journalists do things... to look out for each other... But I think in that instance, we failed." (19:36)

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5. The Epstein Files and Accountability Doubts (39:28–44:02)

• AG Bondi Dodges on Epstein:
  Bondi refuses to answer direct questions about the decision to flag Trump’s name in Epstein records, the supposed “client list,” or whether the DOJ acted fully.
  • Quote: "I'm not going to discuss anything about that with you, Senator." —Pam Bondi (40:27)
  • Ari Melber contextualizes: "Now she makes it sound like a sex trafficking probe is up to the witnesses... That’s not how it works." (41:34)
• Potential Corruption & Secrecy:
  Bondi’s non-answers fuel bipartisan skepticism; House members and even Republicans push for more disclosure and suggest hearing alleged whistleblowers (Howard Lutnick).
  • "If Howard Lutnick wants to speak to the FBI and if Director Patel wants to speak to Howard Lutnick, absolutely." —Pam Bondi (41:18)

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6. Other Notable Investigations: Tom Homan and Missing Funds (43:07–44:07)

• Unanswered Questions:
  Bondi again avoids giving a clear answer about a DOJ/FBI operation involving $50,000 allegedly delivered to border czar Tom Homan, citing completed investigations but not explaining the fate of the cash.
  • Quote: "They found no evidence of wrongdoing." —Pam Bondi (43:19)
  • "What became of the $50,000?... Can't you answer this?" —Adam Friedland (43:25)
• Refusal to Release Tapes:
  Bondi does not commit to releasing relevant tapes to the committee.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bondi’s Evasion:
  "She just looked at us, knowing that no Republican was ever going to force it and just said, no, I’m not telling you." —Sen. Whitehouse (03:35)
• On DOJ Politicization:
  "The DOJ is the federal agency that the President has the least control over... you have to have distance, at least for there to be a patina of integrity." —Jelani Cobb (12:50)
• On Political Violence:
  "Those of you who know me... no place in political violence, for political violence in America, none, zero, never." —Adam Friedland quoting officials (31:57)
• On Rewarding Violence:
  "That pardon rewards the violence... violence which the DOJ determined... was to stop the transfer of power, to hijack or seditiously interfere with who runs your government through violence, political violence." —Ari Melber (36:30)
• On Truth & Misinformation:
  "The truth is complicated and often painful facts." —Yuval Harari, quoted by Melber (44:07)

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Key Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamps | Details | |------------------------------- |-------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | Bondi Testimony Highlights | 01:00–09:07 | Judiciary hearing, refusal to answer, Senate reaction | | DOJ Independence/Political Use | 07:17–08:51 | Legal consequences, political vendettas | | Media & Press Rights | 11:05–20:58 | Pentagon/press, journalism solidarity, competition | | Political Violence Special | 21:05–37:53 | Data, motives, leadership responses, Trump & Jan. 6 pardons | | Epstein Files Discussion | 39:28–44:02 | Bondi evasions, Lutnick whistleblowing, committee frustration | | Missing Funds/Tapes | 43:07–44:07 | Homan investigation, tapes, Bondi’s refusals | | Harari on Truth | 44:07 | Importance of hard facts in democracy |

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Tone & Style

The discussion moves between biting legal analysis, exasperation at stonewalling, and moments of wry humor—particularly in exchanges with Friedland and Cobb. Melber maintains a sharp, evidence-driven focus, continually steering guests and listeners back to the record and underlying facts.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode offers a front-row seat to a roiling Senate hearing with Attorney General Pam Bondi, revealing deep anxieties about the politicization of law enforcement, government transparency, and accountability on issues from presidential influence to prosecutorial independence and high-stakes political violence. Expert guests contextualize current events with historical perspective and media critique, while Melber anchors the discussion with fresh investigative reporting, rigorous data, and clear-eyed calls for the restoration of democratic norms and truth in public life.

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Transcript

[Ari Melber]

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[Ari Melber]

Welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melber. We begin tonight with the fireworks on Capitol Hill. Pam Bondi testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee for the first time as Attorney General. It was contentious Democrats killing Bondi over the ongoing accusations of overreach, abuse of power, DOJ issues. She often just refused to answer questions entirely. Were you consulted by the White House before they deployed National Guard troops to cities in the United States?

[Pam Bondi]

I am not going to discuss any internal conversations with the White House.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

Do you believe that government officials like Gregory Bovino are obligated to follow applicable court orders whether they agree with them or not? Yes or no?

[Pam Bondi]

I wish that you loved your state of California as much as you hate President Trump.

[Adam Friedland]

When I asked a simple yes or.

[Pam Bondi]

No question, the president said, we can't delay any longer. Patience ham using your name, and then goes on to tell you to prosecute a member of this committee, to prosecute the Attorney General of New York, and to prosecute James Comey. Do you consider that a directive to the Justice Department? Senator Klobuchar? President Trump is the most transparent president in American history.

[Ari Melber]

Did you discuss James Comey with the President of the United States? He was sitting just to your left.

[Pam Bondi]

Well, two seats down. Yes, two seats down. And I am not going to discuss any conversations I had or not have with the president because the American public.

[Ari Melber]

Is entitled to know. How did you conclude that these strikes on ships or boats in the open ocean are legal?

[Pam Bondi]

Senator Coons? I'm not going to discuss any legal advice that my department may or may not have given or issued or having.

[Adam Friedland]

You respond with Completely irrelevant, far right Internet talking points really is not very helpful here.

[Pam Bondi]

It's very clear to me that when the president posts something like that, that he considers the DOJ to be his law firm and you his lawyer.

[Ari Melber]

And on it went like that. We're joined now by Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat from Rhode island, on that Judiciary Committee, who also questioned the attorney General today. Good evening.

[Adam Friedland]

Good evening.

[Ari Melber]

What did you make of the attorney General's response? And while there's often back and forth in these hearings, many people have seen excerpts of her apparent decision to just flatly say she won't be answering a lot of questions.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, it set a new low in outright witness evasion in the first Trump administration. We did a lot of what I called kind of non denial denial, non assertion assertions of various privileges. She didn't even bother to hand waves about privileges. She just said, I'm not going to answer that question. And there really is no conceivable privilege that protects what happened to the $50,000 that the FBI gave to Tom Homans, that protects whether or not the Department of Justice sealed the grand jury testimony of Cash Patel after he got immunity after pleading the Fifth about whether or not OPR had concluded its investigation into prosecutorial misconduct by Emil Bovey, now a judge. There just isn't even a facial claim to be made. So she just looked at us, knowing that no Republican was ever going to force it and just said, no, I'm not telling you.

[Ari Melber]

There was, of course, important lines of questioning. The DOJ has had a lot to defend itself on, from Epstein to what we heard. A little bit in the excerpt I showed her response to questions about whether the president ordered in an indictment of what he perceives as an opponent. This is a little bit more on that James Comey indictment.

[Pam Bondi]

Is it true that the career prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia found that there was insufficient evidence to bring criminal charges against former directors Comey? I am not going to discuss pending cases because Comey was indicted in the Eastern District of Virginia by, I may point out, one of the most liberal grand juries in the country.

[Ari Melber]

What are your concerns about that indictment? Go ahead. You look ready to go.

[Adam Friedland]

Just how does a grand jury get to be liberal? A grand jury is a group of maybe 20 or 30 people. It's brought in from the public at large. How do you know? How do you have the faintest idea what their political predilections are? 30 people in a ginormous state like Virginia, the fact that she could say something like that, which is a Completely evidence free characterization just was. It's like a small telltale of what a wonky hearing. This was just weird.

[Ari Melber]

And where do you go from here? I mean, you mentioned, obviously if you have bipartisan collaboration and there's been hints of that I've seen in a couple issues, then you can force more subpoenas, etc. But if, if she's going to treat the committee this way, and thus, by extension, I suppose, the constituents who've elected the people to ask these questions try to get answers. How do you deal with that?

[Adam Friedland]

You follow on first with written questions for the record, which we'll of course be doing. Sometimes they won't answer a senator's written question for the record, but what they're withholding is something that's obtainable under the Freedom of Information act by anyone. So we've gotten in the habit of putting parallel FOIA requests, they're called Freedom of Information act requests in. And then you can start holding up things until you get an answer, which is something that the Republicans and the committee have been very good at in the past. So they may be somewhat sympathetic to if we start doing that. So there are a bunch of ways to put pressure on them. But at the end of the day, you know, persistence kind of pays off. It took me years to get to the bottom of the botched fake Kavanaugh supplemental background investigation process, but I did. So you just have to keep digging.

[Ari Melber]

What are your concerns about the current independence or partisan vendettas being exercised by Donald Trump through the doj? And ultimately, if we keep what they call regular order and rule of law, do any of these prosecutors have anything to be concerned about law licenses or otherwise, if evidence shows that rather than following evidence, they indicted people regardless of evidence?

[Adam Friedland]

Yes. Lawyers put their tickets at risk when they engage in that kind of behavior. Bar associations have repeatedly gone after various lawyers who violated their oaths in return for loyalty to Trump. So there's a track record there. The other thing that happens is that these cases go forward. So watch particularly for instance, the Comey case, where some of the best lawyers ever to come through the Department of Justice will be representing Comey and they'll be up against kind of a gong show of also ran lawyers representing the department, including one who's never tried a case, who's the U.S. attorney, never tried a criminal case. And as they dig through that and as they get discovery and as they ask questions about where department rules were violated and where laws were violated and blow up false evidence, that can become quite a calamity for the prosecuting office as they dig relentlessly through all the failings buried in that case.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, it's a good point. You're reminding everyone, which is they still have to go to an arena where expertise, judges, evidence, rules all apply. It's not just what they post online. Senator Whitehouse, important leadoff guest on the big hearing today. Thank you for joining me.

[Adam Friedland]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

When we come back, we have later in the hour, Pam Bondi's Epstein problems. Those were on display even as she dodged. And I have a special report on the actual facts about the political violence problem in this country. It may be different than what you've heard. We're going to just run through the evidence and where we go from there. It matters. That's coming up. Also two special guests, including Jelani Cobb when we're back in 90 seconds.

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[Ari Melber]

We'Re turning to special guests. Right now we have the top of the traditional journalism hierarchy, the dean of the Columbia Journalism School. I mean, there's no higher than that except for possibly the New Yorker magazine. Jelani Cobb affiliated with both prestigious institutions. And I say that because this is gonna be a good panel.

[Adam Friedland]

Yes.

[Ari Melber]

Adam Freeland is an emerging voice, a digital podcaster. GQ says you could be the next Jon Stewart of our digital era. And you host the Adam Friedland Show. Welcome.

[Adam Friedland]

Thank you for having me.

[Ari Melber]

Thanks for being here.

[Adam Friedland]

I'm the Dean of Columbia journalism.

[Ari Melber]

Just for the record, you're both the dean.

[Adam Friedland]

They have two.

[Ari Melber]

There's a shadow dean. Very, very.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, we're modeling it after the triumvirate in Rome.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. Incredible.

[Adam Friedland]

There's a third, actually.

[Ari Melber]

There's a third. Yeah. And is that like. And are they in, like, a bunker, like, at the State of the Union?

[Adam Friedland]

We don't, we don't want to say who it is.

[Ari Melber]

Respect.

[Adam Friedland]

It's a. It's a terrible choice.

[Ari Melber]

Well, as we say around here, Adam, we're going to get to you. Get to you. Okay, I'll go. We're going to know. I mean, we're going to get to you. And some questions about journalism and a lot. But I'm going to start with Jelani, who's been here a lot, and show you a little bit more of the targets. I was just discussing with the senator, the Comey indictment. Of course, you actually have to look at it in a larger context. Whatever you think of James Comey there indicted now on our, on our list, you can see right nearby, two New Jersey Democrats, both indicted. One of those cases already fell apart. Other New Jersey Democratic officials under search, home search, John Bolton, who worked for Trump, a bunch of other people. I'm not going to name them all. How does this inform what's going on with the James Comey indictment, with him being arraigned tomorrow?

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

I mean, it's absolutely contextual. So I think it's important if you go back to the first Trump administration and what you got. When he talked about his frustrations with the Department of Justice, with his issues with Jeff Sessions, with his subsequent. Throughout the entire kind of duration of his presidency, he felt like the DOJ would not do his bidding. And he referred, saying that he wanted the AG to be the way Eric Holder was for Barack Obama, at least the way he imagined him to be. He thought of Holder as being like the person who was deflecting or protecting Obama in that way. The fact is that generally speaking, the DOJ is the federal agency that the President has the least control over, that there are real reasons for autonomy in the Department of Justice, that you have to have distance at least for there to be a patina of integrity around any of these things. And so it's not significant, it's not just significant that Comey is indicted, that Comey is where he is, but that all of these other people have, that you've listed, the people are being, having their home search. That people have really, we're really seeing the weaponization of the Department of Justice and the pursuit. I mean, think about Richard Nixon. I mean, that's probably the only example that we have outside of this with the attempts to kind of determine how the Watergate investigation was being.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, Nixon had an enemies list. And Bondi, who was back before the Congress today, she previously disavowed that. So at her confirmation hearings, some people think, well, nothing matters anymore. But she was questioned under oath about that. Here's what she said, actually to the senator we just heard from.

[Adam Friedland]

I'm questioning you right now about whether you will enforce an enemy's list that he announced publicly on television.

[Pam Bondi]

Oh, Senator, I'm sorry. There will never be an enemy's list within the Department of Justice.

[Ari Melber]

What would you do if your career DOJ prosecutors came to you with a case to prosecute, grounded in the facts and law, but the White House directs you to drop the case.

[Pam Bondi]

Senator, if I thought that would happen, I would not be sitting here today.

[Ari Melber]

Adam, since that time. Yeah, go ahead.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, there. I mean, case closed, right?

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. Well, she said she, she agreed that would be a problem in the hypothetical. Now that problem is in reality.

[Adam Friedland]

I can't believe that she would. What? I, I thought she was a woman of integrity. I can't believe it. No, I, I think it's rude to Comey. I think it's, it's very rude because, like, had he not opened the email investigation 10 days before the election, he probably gave Donald Trump the presidency.

[Ari Melber]

You think? Probably in a razor thin, in a.

[Adam Friedland]

Razor thin election, it probably pushed him over the edge.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

And like. Yeah, it's very, very rude to Comey.

[Ari Melber]

Now, do you speak just to help us understand? You speak only sarcastically.

[Adam Friedland]

No.

[Ari Melber]

Because then I can help Smith.

[Adam Friedland]

No, that, that is a fact.

[Ari Melber]

What's a fact?

[Adam Friedland]

That Comey was an instrument instrumental in his election.

[Ari Melber]

Right. But that doesn't mean he should be indicted as a vendetta one way or the other. You're saying should not be thanking him.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, he should be thanking him. He wouldn't be in this position at all had it not been for Comey as someone who. Laptop.

[Ari Melber]

I'm not putting you a laptop. I'm not putting you in a, you know, in a box. Ok. Please Don't. But as someone who's coming from a different side, what do you think the traditional press might be missing here? What do you, how do you look at these stories?

[Adam Friedland]

What different side? I'm not, I, I, the traditional press should be the press.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

I don't think that I'm the press.

[Ari Melber]

What are you.

[Adam Friedland]

I don't want to replace.

[Ari Melber]

You're not here in journalism.

[Adam Friedland]

What qualifies me to do that?

[Ari Melber]

No, no. Right. So you, you feel like on the Internet, we just have different styles. A lot of people like getting their news with a little more info. Information and infotainment. Go ahead.

[Adam Friedland]

It's bad. No. No one should listen to a comedian's thoughts on anything.

[Ari Melber]

But we disagree. We have, we have comedians here all the time. And what do they know? All right, let me show you.

[Adam Friedland]

They know about the enact.

[Ari Melber]

Some of them do, certainly.

[Adam Friedland]

Don Oliver, he, he read it five minutes before the. You guys went on.

[Ari Melber]

Well, let me show you something where he's, where Push back seems to make a difference. The Pentagon tried to go Nixon. They famously lost. The Pentagon Papers case, which was about whether the New York Times could publish unauthorized material. Trump, Pentagon was trying to get everyone to sign this sort of loyalty oath. Now the headline pentagon relaxes press access rules. Under guidelines, journalists will not need approval from the DoD before publishing articles containing information not officially released. Jelani, how do you view this story? Because they started full or well, and they seem to have backed off a bit.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

It's called journalism. The other thing is stenography. If you are only publishing the things that you have authorization to publish, that is called a press release. But that's not what we do. And the idea that people have to. Then, as you know, as you well know, as a matter of journalistic principle, we do not show a source or we do not show anyone the story before the story goes out. We may verify your quotes, we may fact check with you, but no one gets approval outside of the editorial committee and specifically here.

[Ari Melber]

There's a lot going on. So I remind everyone, they thought they could cajole, threaten, bully the Pentagon press corps into going along with this. And apparently they got a revolt, not just from, you know, this or that one outlet. Apparently many reporters said no.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

So I think people have learned from the AP situation. I was one of the people who said that when the AP was pushed out of the White House press briefing room over the Gulf of America debacle, that every other news organization should have walked out. They should have refused to cover the press briefings until AP was granted admission and that's not what happened. But people really should have recognized that this was an assault on one of them, which would have facilitated an assault on the rest of them. I think that the DoD situation is informed by that.

[Ari Melber]

They've wised up.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

People know that you have to draw a line somewhere.

[Ari Melber]

Well, and Adam Freeland.

[Adam Friedland]

Yes.

[Ari Melber]

Childish Gambino said this is America. He didn't say this is Gulf of America.

[Adam Friedland]

But he wasn't talking about that.

[Ari Melber]

No, he wasn't. It was a song, right? It was a song.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

I mean.

[Ari Melber]

Any final thoughts?

[Adam Friedland]

Well, my question is this, like, is there no brotherhood in like, the, like the fraternity of journalism? Like, are effectively the other news that organizations just competitors in business?

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

No. I mean, I think that there is. I don't want to disparage that because I think a lot of times journalists do things. They go to great lengths to look out for each other and so on. I don't want to dismiss that at all. I think in that particular instance, we failed and that we should have immediately kind of circled the wagons and said that will. We will do this in defense of each other. I think people probably recognize that more now that they have to do well.

[Ari Melber]

And I think, Adam, you're referring to a tension that exists, which is on the one hand, these reporters are quite literally competing with each other for interviews and scoops. But then when a government comes in and starts to say, actually there's going to be no scoops, even if you're competitive, you go, oh, wait. They actually, as you said earlier, don't want anything authorized. Anything else you want to share with us here on your debut in the.

[Adam Friedland]

Case of Ellsberg, like the New York Times and the Washington Post, like, stood in solidarity with what another. I know about that from the movie the Post. It's. Is it insulting to be next to.

[Ari Melber]

One of the dumbest guys you've ever met?

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

I don't think so. Nothing about you, nothing about you says that you're.

[Ari Melber]

I'm. I'm going to close with this certainly. One love to have you two back together, specifically the two of you. I like it. And second, I haven't. I don't know if I've ever said this on air. What's up? I like the cut of your jib. What does that mean? What does that mean?

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

That means.

[Ari Melber]

I think, I think it means your vibe so much.

[Senator Sheldon Whitehouse]

What is a literal translation of that? I don't think anybody actually knows nothing.

[Adam Friedland]

But respect for this organization and Columbia Journalism School.

[Ari Melber]

Adam Friedland, Jelani Cobb, we're going to bring you guys back together. Thanks for a little sunshine in the middle of the hour. Appreciate it. When we return, a special report we have been working on. You've heard so much about political violence in America. I am going to document what it actually is, who is lying to you about it and what we can do. The facts Next Turning to our special report, the Facts on Political Violence. The US Faces a major problem with attacks on political leaders. We've recently lived through assassinations, assassination attempts and other attacks on elected officials. We have seen over the last eight or ten years. This proliferation of political violence against members of both parties, politically motivated violence is wrong.

[Pam Bondi]

We must condemn political violence in all its form, in all its twisted motivations and perverse ideologies.

[Ari Melber]

Elected officials facing attacks in the past few years, from President Trump to Speaker Pelosi's family to Governor Shapiro after the recent killing of Republican Charlie Kirk, there were swift, strong claims about this type of violence and what led to it and how to respond. Assessing this grave problem requires evidence, facts and detail while also patrolling against partisan bias, which can be very hard when some of the crimes here are political, designed to incite, plus the emotions running high. Understandably, our report now documents the actual motives in recent violence as determined by law enforcement. Now for anyone craving a simple binary story about only one side's blame, you're not going to find it here in the facts or the sometimes vague motives as reviewed by investigators. Across history, we know us political violence has ebbed and flowed over time. Spikes during periods of unrest. The trends have sometimes shown ideological bends. Political violence surged starting in the late 1960s. Reuters reports. By the early 70s that violence was perpetuated more often by radicals. On the left. The radical groups doing the largest number of political attacks were coming from the fringe left, thriving. Mostly left wing violence focused on destroying property like government buildings. And that era was upended by the assassinations of leaders across the spectrum, attempted or executed assassinations. That type of violence actually waned in the 80s, then came back with some right wing anti government violence in the 90s. The Oklahoma City bombing killing 168 people, the deadliest act of domestic terror perpetuated by two US born terrorists. The FBI finding they were motivated by anti government militia aligned views. Now in the decades since, right wing violence is increasing. And so here are the facts for the current and our recent era. Right wing and anti government violence is the most common political violence. It is also the most deadly. Over the past three decades, far right extremists led 20 I should say 220 attacks compared to far left extremists leading 42 attacks. That's roughly five times as by the far right. And if you look at the body count, as investigators do, those attacks resulting in far right extremist violence leading to about or over 520 deaths, left wing attacks resulting in the death of about the number you see there, 78. That's six times as many death. A federal government accounting shows the number of far right attacks outpace all other types of terrorism and domestic violent extremism. This was explained to Congress by the first person Trump appointed to permanently lead the FBI, Chris Wray. Testifying under oath in 2019 about far right and racist acts, he explained that Most of the FBI's domestic terror cases involved white supremacist motives. A majority of the domestic terrorism cases that we've investigated are motivated by some version of what you might call white supremacist violence. Those are the facts on the motives. If it sounds different than some of what you've heard lately or ever, if it sounds different than what the government is saying now, that's because in part, the Trump administration has officials trying to disappear those facts literally. Under AG Bondi, the DOJ removed the factual study on far right extremists committing, quote, far more violence than the left in this current era. Investigative reporter Jason Palladino discovering that change just days after Charlie Kirk was killed. Now, the administration is also undercutting the work that tracks domestic terror and hate crimes, which is odd if you want to know the facts to deal with them. That's the current government's effort. But hiding that kind of report does not hide the facts. And as Trump's FBI director testified, a majority of this coming from white supremacist violence. Numbers showing more deadly right wing terror. There are also cases that do not fall neatly into one clear motive at all. We are going to show you a chart for the recent probes of major incidents of political violence. Right now you see it's blank. We're going to show you what authorities found about each motive. Two major extremist shootings in 15 and 16 where Islamic terror motivated those shooters. The killer of 49, a Pulse nightclub also had ties to Islamist groups. But authorities didn't find a determined motive. The killer of five Dallas officers had the motive of killing white officers. The FBI found the shooter of Republican lawmakers on a baseball field was motivated by domestic violent extremism and had posted anti Trump messages online. The DOJ found the Charlottesville killer was a white supremacist committing hate inspired act of domestic terror. Authorities also found terror and inciting fear. The motive of the person mailing bombs to Democrats and Trump critics. DOJ found a white supremacist had anti Semitic motives in killing 11 at a Pittsburgh synagogue and a white supremacist who attacked that El Paso Walmart. It was anti government motives for the kidnapping plot against Governor Whitmer, a Democrat. Then I'm moving through this fairly swiftly. The most wide scale incident of political violence in a single day in decades was of course the people convicted of storming the Capitol after Trump summoned them to D.C. on 1-6-21. Mitch McConnell called it an insurrection that very night. DOJ determined the core motive was political violence, using force to oppose the lawful transfer of power. Trump freed the convicted on that day, those convicted for what they did that day. And I will return to that because it's relevant. But here in our chart I want to show you the white supremacist shooter and attacker that was seeking to punish Pelosi. That's one. And above it, the Buffalo supermarket attack was terror targeting black people. The attempted assassination of Trump last year came with a shooter with a mixed background. The FBI found that he searched for Trump and Biden before the attack. And while the effort the attempt is terrible, the FBI's probe has complicated the potential motive and thus authorities say it actually remains undetermined. This year, an arsonist targeted Democratic Governor Shapiro's house, citing Gaza. A shooter killed two Minnesota Democrats. And like the Trump shooter probe note, authorities have not determined a clear motive there. And that is the same status in the probe of Charlie Kirk's assassin. It's very early in that case. Politicians have spoken out, but law enforcement has not finalized a determined motive. The shooter's text said he had enough of what he viewed as Kirk's, quote, hate, unquote. Tracking these incidents shows how the violence varies and can be complicated. And as I showed you, remember, the motives for some attacks are undetermined by the authorities. That's what the people investigating are able to determine. A contrast to many rushing to assume or declare motives sometimes within hours of an incident. Some attacks on politicians may not be political violence at all. Now let me explain. By sourcing one of the US Government's terror experts, former CIA advisor Bruce Hoffman, who's written books on this and notes that criminals pursuing political violence or terror are quote, different from the lunatic assassin who may seek the same objective, the death of a political figure, a terrorist goal is political, to change a political system through the violence. While the Lunatic assassin's goal, he writes, is quote, more often egocentric and personal. Hinckley, who tried to kill Reagan in 81 to impress Jodie Foster, acted not from a political motivation, but to impress his screen idol. That is one well known and extreme example. Hoffman warning against simply misinterpreting the motive of some acts and also against allowing those would be violent extremists or terrorists to try to determine our choices or our priorities. And the data shows the recent attacks I would just walk through them with you also seem to reflect reinforce those trends. The FBI found the right wing and white supremacist violence is the top threat numerically. Those are the facts. I just walked you through it. In brief, we've done a lot of research and citations to get there. Now I want to turn to the second part and it's the one you may know pretty well from recent political discourse. I want to turn to the elected leaders reactions to this varied mix of violence. Sometimes top officials are united in condemning it. President Trump and many Republicans condemned the killing of those Minnesota Democrats I mentioned, as did Democratic leaders. National party leaders have rebuked the attempted assassinations of Donald Trump. A few local Democratic officials posted baseless questions about whether that shooting was staged or undercutting, quote, unquote, sympathy for Trump, which drew criticism for minimizing that terrible attempted assassination. Now, there were two assassination attempts made against Trump. National Democratic leaders were clear about condemning the violence at the time. I can show you that right now there is no, and I mean this from the bottom.

[Adam Friedland]

Those of you who know me, many of you do, no place in political violence, for political violence in America, none, zero, never.

[Pam Bondi]

I checked on to see if he was okay. I told him what I have said publicly. There is no place for political violence.

[Ari Melber]

In our country, no place national leaders there on that subject, both parties clear on that attempted violence against Trump, that it was wrong has no place, no defense of any kind. And I've shown you these facts, I walked you through them. I want to use that as the context because while I know that there are of course strong feelings about all of this, understandably so we have to deal in reality. And while there was those universal condemnations of what I just showed you, President Trump factually does not always join in condemning that political violence. And it's a very specific time and example when he doesn't, it is when it is against his opponents in America. That is a major change from the very top. Trump has responded to this kind of violence by minimizing it or claiming to quote joke about it and sometimes outright defending it. And other Republicans, some of them have appeared to follow that lead. Crazy Nancy Pelosi. How's her husband doing, by the way?

[Adam Friedland]

Anybody know?

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Lawmakers are reacting to the arson at.

[Ari Melber]

The governor's mansion, including Representative Dan Muser. On a podcast, Muser condemned the suspect's actions, but also also appeared to put some of the blame on Governor Shapiro for the arson attack. You also had people that were very fine people on both sides. The sting that they did involving Gretchen Whitmer was fake.

[Pam Bondi]

Backlash is growing over Utah Senator Mike.

[Adam Friedland]

Lee apparently posting jokes to his social.

[Pam Bondi]

Media about the assassination of a Minnesota lawmaker and her husband.

[Ari Melber]

The plot against Governor Whitmer was real, not fake, as was the assassination that Senator Lee joked about. Very real. Two people murdered and the attack on the Pelosi household that Trump referenced, real. So there have been some recent calls to tone down rhetoric, the words that might minimize or launder actual violence against political leaders. Though what you just heard, for example, from Donald Trump would be the first clear place to start. And those are just words. The other shift on this long road of political violence in America is the way from the top. We are seeing some of it legitimized. A top political leader or a president legitimizing politicized violence is a very big deal. This has been in Our face since January 6, 2021, the first break in America's peaceful transfer of power. A convicted sedition now, for the first time this year, embraced and rewarded by a sitting president. This January, Trump's VP, J.D. vance, was still publicly opposing freeing people convicted of political violence against police. On January 6, Vance said, if you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. If you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned, obviously, because that pardon rewards the violence, violence which the DOJ determined, as we showed you here in the motive was to stop the transfer of power, to hijack or seditiously interfere with who runs your government through violence, political violence. But just this year, even though Vance said that Donald Trump pardoned those very convicts after touting them as special, starting on the very first day of their insurrection and sedition.

[Adam Friedland]

We love you.

[Ari Melber]

You're very special. They were warriors, but they were really more than anything else, they're victims of what happened. They had a release. The J6 hostages. It will be my great honor to pardon the peaceful January 6th protesters.

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[Ari Melber]

Listen, it's a very tough system. We hope they come out tonight. Frankly, you won't stop political violence by rewarding it. You have to punish it to deter it. That's how the law works. Justice requires punishing crimes regardless of who the crimes or violence may target or even benefit. That's why the Roman statue of lady justice is famously blindfold. That's why some of this shouldn't even need to be said in a society based on the rule of law if we still intend to be. It's the fundamental baseline of the law. So political partisans lecturing people about toning down words or rhetoric right now, attempting to claim that ground without even punishing the actual violence in our midst, condemning it. Well, that is as illogical as hiding the facts about the documented violence. And to counter this political violence, we need the facts. We need to be honest. And we obviously need to punish the convicted violence, not reward it.

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[Ari Melber]

You are asked who or what role.

[Adam Friedland]

You may have played or who played.

[Ari Melber]

The role in asking that Trump's name be flagged in any of the Epstein documents gathered by the FBI. You refuse to answer that question. Attorney General Bondi getting pressed and fueling speculation about the Epstein files. Remember, while there are many different ways that an Attorney General might not comment about something, this is a fairly closed case. The main guy is dead, his co conspirator is already in prison, that that appeal exhausted. And if she had something good to say about a lack of internal deliberations involving the President, she certainly didn't do that and help him. She just dodged a ton of questions. Why did you publicly claim to have the Epstein client list waiting for your review, and then produce nothing relevant to that claim?

[Pam Bondi]

If you listen to my entire clip on that, I said I had not reviewed it yet, that it was sitting on my desk.

[Ari Melber]

Who gave the order to flag records related to President Trump?

[Pam Bondi]

I'm not going to discuss anything about that with you, Senator.

[Ari Melber]

Not going to discuss it. Then there's all the headlines that come from within the House. Even Republicans wanted to know about something that got a lot of attention when a current member of the Trump Cabinet, Howard Lutnick, completely undercut the DOJ's story. Call it the official story or their memo that basically said there weren't other Epstein crimes to pursue. Lutnick, with some caveats, saying he assumes still blew the whistle on what he calls the probable blackmailing of other individuals which has not been charged, saying Epstein was the, quote, greatest blackmailer. Have you interviewed Secretary Lutnick?

[Pam Bondi]

No. Senator, do you plan to. If he wants to talk to the FBI or the FBI wants to talk to him, that is more than.

[Adam Friedland]

Don't you think you ought to talk.

[Pam Bondi]

To him after this interview, Senator, if Howard Lutnick wants to speak to the FBI and if Director Patel wants to speak to Howard Lutnick, absolutely.

[Ari Melber]

Okay.

[Adam Friedland]

Maybe we ought to get Mr. Lutnick in here, too, Mr. Chairman.

[Ari Melber]

If he wants it. If they want it. If the FBI wants it. This is the top law enforcement officer in the country who very recently was on Fox parading around how she was going to get to the bottom of all the Epstein stuff and release it all. And now she makes it sound like a sex trafficking probe is up to the witnesses without assuming anything negative about Mr. Lutnick or anyone else. That's not how it works. If the FBI is serious about getting to the bottom of whatever remains in the Epstein case. It's not up to random people to choose to get interviewed or not. Anyone who's ever watched a movie about crime or law and order knows that. And yet Pam Bondi seems to think that's an acceptable defense. And given how many people in her base on the right are still mad at her for Epstein's secrecy, it may not pass muster. Gonna fend a break. When we come back, high level corruption questions. Also at the committee hearing today, we have the follow up. Donald Trump's attorney general had quite a day today. We've covered different aspects of this. We have more for you. That hasn't come out yet, although came up briefly in our conversation with the senator. Revelation that border czar Tom Homan appeared to be caught on some kind of tape regarding a bag of cash. He's denied all wrongdoing, but the question was whether he was in a sting where he might have crossed a line. The doj, however, under the Trump administration, has basically closed that probe. So the AG was grilled about that.

[Adam Friedland]

Are you saying that they did not deliver $50,000 in cash to Mr. Homan?

[Pam Bondi]

Senator, as recently stated, the investigation of Mr. Homan was subject to a full review by the FBI agents.

[Adam Friedland]

That's a different question.

[Pam Bondi]

By Department of Justice prosecutors. They found no evidence of wrongdoing.

[Adam Friedland]

That's a different question. What became of the $50,000? Did the FBI get it back?

[Pam Bondi]

Mr. Whitehouse. Excuse me, Senator Whitehouse, you're welcome to talk to the FBI.

[Adam Friedland]

The report to you. Can't you answer this?

[Ari Melber]

The Attorney General there maybe doesn't want to say or doesn't know if they got the money back. It's not a great investigative secrecy to say that. It would help clear it up. Some of this incident apparently is on tape. Bond. He's also not going to release it. Will you support a request by this committee to provide that tape or tapes to the committee? Yes or no?

[Pam Bondi]

Senator Schiff, you can talk to Director Patel about that.

[Ari Melber]

And I guess that's as far as she's willing to go. We'll be right back. What's the best way to address lies that sometimes seems to hang over all the stories we do around here? And we want to share a thought from someone that Obama calls his favorite historian, the author Yuval Hararis. This counterspeech doctrine that we just need more information, and if you have a lot of information, again, the truth will just come up, will float up, and it won't. You need to tilt the balance in favor of truth because again. As I said before, it's costly, it's rare, and more to the point, the truth is complicated and often painful facts. If you want to see more from that in depth interview, you can go to msnbc.comsummit or msnbc.com Ari we have our longer interviews posted there. Thanks for spending time with us. Mr. Harari gets the last word about Truth tonight and we'll see you tomorrow.

[Pam Bondi]

What are you doing in a meeting? That could have been an email.

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