← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Billionaire Les Wexner Testifies About Epstein Ties
00:41:07
MS NOW's Ari Melber reports on new testimony from billionaire Wes Wexner in the House Epstein investigation.
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- [00:00]
Commercial Narrator
I like things my way. My coffee, my schedule and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo pre filled syringe, which contains fgartigamide alpha and hyaluronidase qvfc. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment, my way. Visit vivgardmyway.com that's V-Y V-A-R-T myway.com and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo. Brought to you by Argenics.
- [00:30]
Ari Melber
It's tax season and at Lifelock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear. Billions. That's the amount of money in refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com specialoffer for the threats you can't control, terms apply. Welcome to the Beast. We are reporting right now on new testimony coming out of this House Epstein probe. The recent Epstein files showed the DOJ had leads on these people in Epstein's orbit and others redacted. As you see, this was a big important document that we only got from the new files and the DOJ only ultimately prosecuted one. Maxwell. We only know that because Congress overruled Trump and forced out those files. Now, some of the same members of Congress say they are doing basically some of the investigative work that the DOJ failed to do. And that would stretch back from the recent Trump administration and the Biden administration because these leads, if they mean anything, weren't deeply followed by the DOJ under successive administrations. That's the background. Here's what's happening today that's new. The House compelling a powerful billionaire who's usually behind the scenes. Les Wexner go under oath to provide answers about his long business history with Epstein. He was interviewed where he lives in Ohio. Democratic lawmakers led this questioning today. Some Republican staff members, we're told, also attended. Now, Wexner's a key figure because we already knew Epstein made so much money off of him. This is a one example of a photograph from the Oversight Committee with an individual redacted again under the reasons we've been told. But the two men having a drink, hanging out Whatever you see there. Now, Epstein made money off this man, and we know big sums were also returned. Now, lawmakers say their evidence shows over a billion dollars cumulatively went from Wexner to Epstein and that he's in the files over 1,000 times. You're looking at one file, one photograph. There are many, many other references and contacts with him. Now, that billion dollars is part of the fortune that ultimately propped up Epstein's crime spree. And it's been documented that Wexner, back in the day, cut ties with Epstein around his first legal problems in Florida. And if you think about some of the people who've gotten in trouble recently, you remember a lot of them are being basically held to account because after Epstein's conviction for a sex crime involving a minor, what they call soliciting prostitution for someone under 18, and people years later were in contact with him, and they got in trouble for that. This one is a little different. Wexner can show and point to evidence, financially and otherwise. There's documents that they cut ties around that time. In fact, Wexner also says Epstein stole from him and they got some of that money back. As I mentioned today, the new Wexner testimony includes a public statement where he describes how, despite his own business skills and, you know, purported acumen and intelligence, he says he was duped by a world class con man and that he regrets ever having met him. Wexner also suggested today that Epstein was a skilled manipulator living a type of, quote, double life, and that he would compartmentalize different sets of people and crimes. If you do an investigation, you follow these kind of pieces of testimony or allegation, and there's some support for that because the emails do show Epstein kind of operating in a different way, even with very different language and different sort of references depending on who he's dealing with. The key question that I'm going to get to here is whether Wexner knew that or not. Wexner suggests that he was only and essentially one of Epstein's financial victims, and others were Epstein's sex trafficking victims, and that basically, Epstein had a lot of people fooled. Now, we should note Wexner has not faced any legal allegations from the doj, and that is his view, and that's part of why investigators gather testimony. But was it the full truth and was it credible? That's also what we're reporting on today. Some of the Democratic lawmakers, basically, we'll let you see what they said, but I would kind of summarize it, is that they basically doubt Wexner's claimed confusion or ignorance about the totality of the years of other Epstein activities. Mr. Wexner appears to be unaware of much of the money as he claims.
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Commercial Narrator
That was given over to Mr. Epstein.
- [05:17]
Ari Melber
Trying to downplay how close Jeffrey Epstein and Mr. And Mr. Wexner actually were.
- [05:24]
Ty Cobb
The more this deposition goes on, the less less Wexner knows we are running into dead ends.
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Emily Bazelon
She most likely will be left with more questions than answers.
- [05:34]
Ty Cobb
He has basically alleged that he saw no evil, heard no evil.
- [05:39]
Ari Melber
So you can see the lawmakers there reacting to that question isn't whether that's unsatisfying or doesn't fit a story or a narrative. The question, of course, is whether it's true. Now, they did, of course, probe certain issues. When you take the island, the infamous Epstein Island, Wexner says he went once with his wife and children. Trump Commerce Secretary Lutnick recently made a similar admission, and Trump is not sanctioning or removing him. Unlike the people you see on your screen, Lutnick lied about that for years. The only reason he copped to his lies was that the files outed him. We continue to track others, though, who are facing investigations, ousted from top positions and other forms of consequences. While it must be noted that Donald Trump, who claimed he would get to the bottom of this, won't even throw someone overboard who was caught on the island. Lower right, by the way, you see a new addition, Kathy Rumler, who is a Democratic lawyer ousted from Goldman Sachs just in this past week. Now, as Congress investigates, convicted Epstein associate Maxwell continues to dodge any attempt to level with the House. She has invoked her Fifth Amendment rights, which are, of course, irrevocable constitutional rights. The only way to get around that would be if Congress wanted to immunize her and then compel her because she wouldn't have to worry about any future prosecution. They haven't taken that step. So when you take this together tonight, what you have is a type of investigative progress. And there is a big gap here between what Congress says it's trying to do and what the DOJ has done and isn't further doing. And while much of this has been in the heat of this MAGA era, this second Trump term, any reliable, serious allegations that the DOJ didn't chase down obviously goes back more than two years, given that Epstein died in 2019 and includes the Merrick Garland DOJ as well. If there are avenues that have not been fully pursued, whatever the reason, that is an indictment of not only the current doj, but the Last one. As well. As we go down this road, I want to bring in one of our legal analysts, Emily Bazelon, legal writer with the New York Times Magazine. Thoughtful, fair, measured in these wild times. Welcome back.
- [08:05]
Emily Bazelon
Thanks so much, Ari.
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Ari Melber
Emily, this isn't your first rodeo, and I'll be honest with you, it's not mine either. So when we have politicians sometimes going in the right direction, if that might be called truth or justice, and yet the heat is so high, as I've mentioned about. Oh, this DOJ didn't go into any of this. I've got Garcia. I'll play in a second. Saying FBI and DOJ haven't done enough to try to get to the bottom of the Wexner investigation, which is, I think, appears to be the case. But that, of course, involves multiple DOJs. What do you see as important or substantive out of what's happening today?
- [08:43]
Emily Bazelon
Well, so there are obviously the questions of the sex crimes and the sex trafficking, which is why we're all here. Right? That's the central harm and evil that Epstein committed. And then there is this big question about all the money, right? How did he get control of so much money from men like Wexner who gave him power of attorney and really trusted him with these vast sums? I think what. What today was about is whether there's a connection between those two kinds of activ. And Wexner is saying there wasn't any. And as you laid out, the timeline at least suggests that that could be true. Right, because he cut off contact with Epstein before Epstein was convicted of crimes. He is very emphatic. And now the question is going to be, is there evidence that he's lying about that? I think it's important.
- [09:35]
Ari Melber
This is the timeline here. I want to let you finish, but I have a simple question then. We're looking at. That's back around when he was indicted, that they did have a breakup in their relationship. But, Emily, if somebody steals what he describes as vast sums, and that's a billionaire saying vast sums, wouldn't you do more than just ask for it back nicely?
- [09:56]
Emily Bazelon
You might, sure. And I can see why you would expect that. But I think also people are very embarrassed, and it can be hard to. If you've given someone power of attorney, how do you show that they stole from you as opposed to just they were trying to make a deal and it didn't work out, or they paid themselves a really hefty fee along the way? I think sometimes really wealthy people care more about their reputations not being exposed as having fallen for a con than they would necessarily about, you know, going to the police or prosecutors with this kind of allegation. And what we need to look for next is evidence about whether there is a connection that Wexner's not admitting here. So far, I see members of Congress sort of assuming, well, there must be. He was so involved, he must have known. But that's really different from, we can show here that he's lying. We can show here that he knew where his money was going. And especially because of the way this timeline works, it just seems like they have some real proof they need to offer before they make these kinds of allegations. And that's part of the challenge with something like this, where it just starts to swirl. Right. All of these accusations.
- [11:07]
Jay McInerney
Yeah.
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Ari Melber
And here's what Garcia said there about. About the DOJ side. He's someone that's been named by survivors, someone that's in the files more than.
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Commercial Narrator
Most people, someone that's clearly the financial.
- [11:21]
Ari Melber
Benefactor to Jeffrey Epstein and has not been contacted or interviewed by the FBI or the doj. What the hell is going on? That is shameful. How about that?
- [11:37]
Emily Bazelon
Well, I think this question of whether they should have interviewed Wexner, should they have done a lot of work along the way many years ago and. Sure. In the last doj, as well as this one, to try to probe all these potential connections. Yeah. I mean, given the vast conspiracy that we're talking about, I can completely understand the distress over not interviewing Wexner, not pursuing this lead. But that's really different from proving a connection that would. Right. Prove that Wexner knew about the sex trafficking ring, did something criminal, et cetera.
- [12:11]
Ari Melber
We sometimes tend to look at these things very locally parochial. Epstein, of course, was in America. But here's a headline about the new probes in France and the UK The Paris public prosecutor opening two lines of inquiry on human trafficking, the other into financial wrongdoing related to Epstein. In Britain, police confirming their looking at revelations from the files about flights that were there to remind everyone there is no real global police. The jurisdiction is generally geographic. I'm simplifying. There are international types of crimes, but they're looking at the nexus of whether things went down there and involved their community. What do you think, as a legal expert, about how long it's taken in many places to look at this?
- [12:55]
Emily Bazelon
Well, I think the French and the British are looking at the people whose names are coming up in the files, and they're justifiably asking whether there's any criminal wrongdoing that they can prove in their court systems. I was struck by the fact that the French prosecutors were asking for new victims to come forward, suggesting that what they know so far may not be something that they can indict people about and they're hoping for more proof of actual crimes to move forward.
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Ari Melber
Yeah, and that's a good point as well, that although you can't assume too much, the kind of questions we hear, especially when there's public calls for cooperation, also speak sometimes to lack of direct evidence, at least in that jurisdiction. Emily, really important stuff. Thanks for walking through it with us.
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Emily Bazelon
Thanks for having me.
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Ari Melber
Absolutely. When we look at the unaccountable tech billionaires, one of them went under oath today. I'll explain. That's coming up. And we'll be joined by novelist Jay McInerney and the White House Ballroom. A lot of problems and the immigration crackdown is backfiring on Donald Trump. As advertised, we have a very special guest, ty Cobb in 90 seconds. Donald Trump's problem with trying to be an autocrat continues. And polling shows he's having trouble here. He's sagging at 39%. The immigration outrage is part of that. The LA Times reports all of this taking a toll with crashing trust in our elections, concerns about misuse of ICE and other federal agents. 30% of the voters think that immigration officials might be at polling locations, including a larger share of minority Americans. And that matters because the belief by 46%, say, of perfectly lawful Hispanic American or Latino American voters that ICE could be there could be a reason to skip, which goes to the propaganda war that's also being waged, what is sometimes called, depending on the situation, voter suppression. Here is also what Trump is saying. Why would you want mail in ballots if you know it's corrupt? It's a corrupt. We're the only country in the world that has this system of mail in ballots. Think of it. The only country in the world that.
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Ty Cobb
Has this system of mail in ballots because they cheat.
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Ari Melber
Fact check, false. This, along with the fear that Bannon and others are putting out about ICE agents roaming voter polling locations may be this effort to distort everything or to undermine trust in mail voting. There are entire states that do only vote by mail. President's claim that it is, quote, corrupt is not backed up by the experience in states. And Donald Trump himself has netted many, many votes for him through the mail. Meanwhile, we have the pictures of the East Wing ballroom. You can see that going up. Turns out allies on the board are approving the project, rejecting concerns about the size of this building. There's also an appointment of an assistant to the panel in charge of reviewing the plans, which is coming out of Trump's team. And if you look past the White House, Trump has directed his Air Force to repaint a VIP fleet in his preferred palette while putting up pictures and posters and renamings all over the place in the federal government, something the New York Times recently said was more akin to what you see in dictatorships than democracies. We're joined now by former White House attorney in the first Trump administration, Ty Cobb. Welcome back.
- [16:29]
Ty Cobb
Thank you, Ari. Good to be with you.
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Ari Melber
What do you see here as important in the signal to noise? And this attack on the midterms is, in your view, propaganda trying to distort who turns out or also getting ready to do something.
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Ty Cobb
So I think if we go to 30,000ft and look at all the pieces, keep in mind, Trump recently said that it was time to nationalize elections. He articulated publicly that he thought the federal government should interfere in 15 jurisdictions or more. Steve Bannon promised that ice would be out in groves, at key precincts and in key states, and that Trump even went so far as to suggest at one point that we should forget about elections in 2026. Now, the White House, with regard to the latter statement, said that was a joke, but it's not a joke. I mean, this is all intended to desensitize America and to discredit vot, and it's had a big effect. I mean, the polls show that voters don't really anticipate that the elections in 2026 will go smoothly or in a trustworthy manner, not because of mail in ballots, but because of Republican interference and fascism suspected that we'll be at the polls. You've seen the judges, courts on the immigration front have responded to the atrocities you have well mentioned and described on your show previous by revoking the presumption of regularity from the Department of Justice, basically saying that after 250 years, what the Justice Department says is no longer entitled to the presumption of truth. We're seeing a real decline. And now you talk about the ballroom, which I think is probably less of concern than the fascist efforts that are being undertaken with regard to elections and elsewhere, immigration. But with regard to the ballroom, what would you see? Frederick Law Olmsted, who designed DC and renowned figure in American history, was one of the first people on the commission that you just mentioned. And now we have a very, very young woman who looks like she recently escaped from homeroom to have her braces removed, has no experience at all, and she's now a Trump appointee. Why? Because she's one of Trump's secretaries. So it's a cacosocracy as the word that gets tossed around. I know it's a word I didn't know well, but it means governance by the inept, and that's what we're suffering through.
- [19:10]
Ari Melber
Yeah. As you say, inept and nepotism and patronage carrying more weight than anything else, which, as you know, is also the opposite of what Trump had famously claimed in his campaigns. He said that because he was wealthy, he would have less corruption incentive. And it was really the public officials that you have to worry about. It's the opposite. I want to show you Kristi Noem, who at one point might have been fighting for her job over all the ICE outrage, and she at dhs, getting involved in the voting discussion. Take a listen.
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Emily Bazelon
When it gets to Election Day, that we've been proactive to make sure that we have the right people voting, electing the right leaders to lead this country.
- [19:48]
Ari Melber
Is that the proper approach of a security official? And related, what is your legal view of the limits on ICE under current, current law? To be out in a way that might be voter intimidation in any voting period when we get to the midterms.
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Ty Cobb
So that's an excellent question. I think we're going to see the courts gradually parse through that. You know, ICE actually has no local law enforcement authority in any of the states. They're only supposed to manage the limited number of federal crimes entrusted to, and they shouldn't be there. But it's gonna take a series of court battles, I think, to prevent them from being there. And it may come down to a conflict between State National Guards and ice, absent an implication of the Insurrection act, which I think we will see in advance of the election. So I think people should be very, very concerned and very, very animated about what's coming. Kerry Kasparov, of course, has the noted Russian dissident and former World ch, has been very outspoken about the gulags that are being built around the country and the fact that they're intended not only to house illegally detained immigrants, of which we have thousands now, but also likely dissidents and people of color on a going forward basis. What is happening in this country, you.
- [21:17]
Ari Melber
Don'T think that's just an international parallel gone too far? You believe that's something that Trump would, would try to do and get away with?
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Ty Cobb
So, put it this way, you know, Trump is deporting people on a trajectory and at a pace that's not very different from the number of deportations that happened under Obama. However, the number of illegally detained people is extraordinarily high. And, and he's building, you know, dozens of prisons to house up to 8,000 people. We've never needed that before. That's well over 150,000 beds. Who are they for? And who are they going to be for when the detainees are gone? This is, as Derek Kasparov says, this is not a drill.
- [22:10]
Ari Melber
Yeah, that's powerful coming from his knowledge of the world and your concern about a man you once served in the White House. Ty, stay with me. That brings us to another question here about how people are trying to fight back and thwart this. I want to ask you when we come back.
- [22:25]
Ty Cobb
Sure.
- [22:27]
Commercial Narrator
I like things my way. My coffee, my schedule and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo pre filled syringe which contains fgartigamide alpha and hyaluronidase qvfc. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment my way. Visit vivgartmyway.com that's V Y V G-A-R-T myway.com and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo Brought to you by Argenics Lifelock. How can I help?
- [23:00]
Emily Bazelon
The IRS said I filed my return but I haven't.
- [23:03]
Ari Melber
One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
- [23:06]
Emily Bazelon
What do I do?
- [23:07]
Ty Cobb
My refund though.
- [23:08]
Ari Melber
I'm freaking out. Don't worry.
- [23:09]
Commercial Narrator
I can fix this.
- [23:10]
Ari Melber
Lifelock fixes identity theft guaranteed and gets your money back with up to $3 million in coverage.
- [23:15]
Emily Bazelon
I'm so relieved.
- [23:16]
Ty Cobb
No problem.
- [23:17]
Commercial Narrator
I'll be with you every step of the way.
- [23:19]
Ari Melber
One in four was a fraud paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com Specialoffer terms apply.
- [23:28]
Emily Bazelon
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- [24:02]
Ari Melber
We're back with Ty Cobb, a former federal prosecutor, a White House veteran lawyer under Donald Trump in the first term. We were discussing why you say to take Russian dissident Garry Kasparov's warning about illegal detentions in this country seriously, your concerns about your former boss and client Trump pursuing martial law. Some of the pushback we've seen on the election front. Virginia redistricting goes forward, but the Supreme Court's considering an appeal. Florida voters suing to block Republicans trying the mid decade redistricting, something that may violate the tradition. And different courts are figuring out whether to allow that kind of constitutional hardball. Supreme Court is letting California use what is a Democratic friendly congressional map, which in that state they won, famously only pushing back on what MAGA had tried. How do you view that as a kind of a signal to what courts will do with what could be the more emergency problems on a faster basis going into the midterms that you were outlining.
- [25:03]
Ty Cobb
So I think that the California decision by the Supreme Court is basically part and parcel of their decision, Texas, which they'd made earlier, allowing the Republicans to move forward with redistricting. And there's really no distinction between the two decisions and the reasoning, even though Trump of course championed the Texas redistricting, but, you know, criticized the California because it's, you know, Democrats and Republicans. That's not the way the country's supposed to be governed. It's supposed to be governed as a unified system of people for all the people. With regard to the other patchwork quilt of states, you have maybe five states, maybe six actually with things in play. I think the reality there though is it's coming a little late in the game and there will be appeals and delays and that gets right up against the Supreme Court's precedent about they're not going to make changes late in the game. So I'm not sure how consequential any of these current efforts will be. And then you look at Trump's lies about the perils of mail in voting. I mean, Florida probably has the most mail in votes of any state in the country. It's a Republican bastion. I don't think there's any basis for that. But the level of election interference isn't just in terms of the SAVE act, which is of course just another fascist brick in the prison that's being built around us, but it's in what's going on. The Fulton county case, the Fulton county case where, where the feds went in and notwithstanding legal proceedings in the state involving the same ballots disrupted all that submitted an affidavit, which I don't know a single legal person who's reviewed the affidavit who believes that there's actual probable cause in there. In fact, the case agent who filed the affidavit noted that he was basically relying on deficiencies cited by a Trump denier, Kurt Olson. Trump election denier Kurt Olson, who represents represented Carrie Lake in Arizona trying to contest her election failed and has flailed with a bunch of allegations. Back in 2020, Bill Barr told Trump were just false. So now he's recycling these. And the case agent pointed out that with regard to the allegations in the indictment, they could only be a crime if there was evidence. Not citing evidence, but saying this is only a crime if there is evidence. And that is not the standard for issuing a warrant. So we're seeing a full scale onslaught in the court and the legislatures, and presumptively, based on what Trump has promised and Bannon has promised, we'll see ice in the streets trying to intimidate witnesses and prevent the elections from going smoothly in blue states and key precincts.
- [28:07]
Ari Melber
Well, and as you said tonight, it may take the local activism like we saw in Minnesota, backed by the local authorities, National Guard, to say, what are local elections mean if not actually physically protecting voters from what could be a federal incursion. I mean, that's where the rubber hits the road, so to speak. As always, Ty Cobb, we benefit from your experience. Thank you very much. I'm gonna tell folks what's coming up. Yes, sir. These tech billionaires now are in what some call a new gilded age. As we look at the job cuts, the Trump slump, and yet the stock's going up for a lot of folks. The billionaires now spending more on campaigns than ever before. My breakdown is next.
- [28:47]
Emily Bazelon
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- [29:16]
Commercial Narrator
I like things my way. My coffee, my schedule and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo pre filled syringe, which contains efgard, Tigamut Alpha and Hyaluronidase qvfc. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment my way. Visit vivgartmyway.com that's V Y V G-A-R-T myway.com and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo brought to you by Argenics.
- [29:47]
Emily Bazelon
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- [30:06]
Ari Melber
Show employers what you know upskill for.
- [30:09]
Emily Bazelon
The career you want@udemy.com now back to your regularly scheduled listening.
- [30:21]
Ari Melber
Today, billionaire tech mogul Mark Zuckerberg faced questions under oath and this was in a venue that his money could not evade. In court, he took the stand in a major, some say landmark case, depending on what happens, that tries to hold some big tech accountable for peddling addictive products, sometimes to children. The company denies these allegations, but Facebook, Instagram, Meta are but one of several companies that reap profits from all kinds of stuff online. Maybe not all of it is questionable or even harmful, but some of it, according to evidence in this trial, is and they are reaping a lot of money tech facing criticism that it is essentially now, especially in certain contexts or with children, more like tobacco than just something that you google to get some information that they profit off harm and they profit handsomely because that's one piece what they're doing and whether it's good even if it's good business and then how it's affecting our society inequality. Now let me tell you up top, America has had many evolving debates over capitalism over the years, over wealth, over the difference between greed or the 80s idea that greed is good, said some and excess or the bubbles that burst and seem to hurt everyone. Today's Gilded Age though is clearly dominated by one industry. Nine of the 10 richest people in the US are all in tech and they have been vastly growing their multi billion dollar fortunes in just the last decade. So what started as huge is now just bananas. If you just take these people on your screen, some of them famous, maybe some of them less so, they have a combined $2 trillion in wealth, but they're not just sitting on that money to run their tech empires. As you may have noticed, they're increasingly using the money to buy up everything else that they think has power from major media maga allies, buying TV and newspapers. Colbert is in a clash about that this week. To the social media, which is on trial in that courtroom today. Musk famously put his fortune from other tech companies to buy Twitter. And that made him even more relevant as he sought influence over US Politics, where he's an immigrant and with Donald Trump. Remember, Musk is his biggest political donor. Trump might want you to forget that. And they had their odd relationship. But Musk spent a quarter of a billion dollars on Trump alone, plus wielding the efforts and influence of X, which got him at least a temporary job atop the administration last year. Or Amazon's Jeff Bezos, who has done many things that many people in business say are positive. Creating jobs, changing the way commerce works online.
- [33:06]
Ty Cobb
Cool.
- [33:07]
Ari Melber
But lately, as a tech billionaire, he's doing a lot of other stuff. Cozying up to Trump, taking the Washington Post, which once said, democracy dies in darkness. And now, in this new Trump era, absolutely gutting what is one of the last American print institutions laying off close to half of the team there. Or Trump's adult sons, who are getting in on tech just from the other direction of government. Today they did a joint interview about a very controversial walking conflict of interest. $500 million investment that they got in their crypto company. Take a look.
- [33:43]
Emily Bazelon
I ask you about, you know, the World Liberty Corporation, which has been in the news, and there was this big Wall Street Journal report about the 49% stake that was sold to an Emirati royal family member after your father was elected president, raising questions about whether they were doing that so they could get access to AI chips.
- [34:02]
Ari Melber
A, my father has nothing to do with. B, it has nothing to do with AI chips. We've been dealing with the conflict of interest stuff for years. I mean, they tried all this nonsense the first time around. Frankly, it's gotten old. They were the ones that put us into this position by creating legislation to try to put us out of business. We just fought back. The answer doesn't even fully make sense. Obviously, the United States has laws that govern business like everyone else. And if laws are passed in our bipartisan process to constrain or regulate business. And remember, after the housing crash and the earlier tech bubble, people wanted more of those kind of regulations so that you, the taxpayer, don't end up having to bail out people like that, whether or not this was an actual illegal bribe or quid pro quo would have to be investigated. And nobody's waiting on this Trump doj. Paul Krugman, Nobel economist, says wealth in America is now more concentrated in a few hands than it was during the Gilded Age. And this increase in concentrated wealth at the top translates into increased power. Remember, it's not enough to just be the richest person in the world. Apparently the appetite is stoked to then control media and television and other tech. These individuals are flourishing under an American capitalism that we all share, that we all put into. Whether or not they are paying their fair taxes or should have control over all our media and our politics are open questions. Buying up media companies, plowing money into campaigns which make your $50 monthly Bernie Sanders donation look a little quaint. We have been through parts of this before. Sometimes pre crash, sometimes in our culture. 1980s New York, where decadence and excess became not only accepted, but kind of celebrated. What you might see in today's Instagram stunting of people trying to show they are as wealthy as possible or more wealthy than they are has echoes in these other periods in our history. Some of them didn't end that well. Take Bright Lights, Big City, one of my favorites. If you happen to watch this show, the novel and movie which looked at all kinds of excesses.
- [36:12]
Ty Cobb
Have you ever.
- [36:13]
Ari Melber
Noticed how the good words start with D? D and L?
- [36:17]
Emily Bazelon
You know, drugs, Delight.
- [36:19]
Ty Cobb
Decadence. Debauchery.
- [36:22]
Ari Melber
Dexedrine. Delectable. Debilitated.
- [36:27]
Emily Bazelon
Deranged, Delinquent.
- [36:30]
Ari Melber
Delirium. Nl L Less and luscious.
- [36:34]
Ty Cobb
Clangorous.
- [36:35]
Emily Bazelon
Librium.
- [36:38]
Ty Cobb
Libidinous.
- [36:41]
Ari Melber
When does a little fun we come to Bakri? When does a habit become an addiction? Whether it was the drinks and other stuff in that novel or today's phones that we're told are just making us smarter, but they might be making us more addicted than we even realize. And who's going to pay the tab? I'm going to put that question to the great author Jay McNanerney, who, of course wrote that novel and has insights for us when we come back. The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. And if you thought that was a bad guy in business, well, look where we are today. That was a famous creed from Wall street of the 80s. We are joined now by another 80s classic, Jay McNary, who's written 11 books, including the iconic Bright Lights, Big City. Welcome back.
- [37:53]
Jay McInerney
Thank you. Thank you. Was that Elon Musk with Trulli? She.
- [37:56]
Ari Melber
Exactly what are you seeing out here among the Bezos and the Zuckerbergs?
- [38:01]
Jay McInerney
Well, you know, I'm an early Bezos hater because I made My living from book and selling them mostly. And Bezos was an early disruptor and a very bad player in our industry, in publishing and the bookselling industry, and he really cut into a lot of people's livelihoods. So I wasn't as surprised as some people might be when I saw what he did. I've seen what he's been doing to the Washington Post. I mean, it's just disgraceful. He wrote in as a savior and he's now presiding over the destroyer construction of an incredible media legacy.
- [38:42]
Ari Melber
And you, you had determined from his business actions that you knew something about his values or his priorities.
- [38:49]
Jay McInerney
Yeah, I mean, he, he posed as a liberal for a while, but, but. And a friend of. I don't know, I don't know if he ever poses a friend of the common man, but he's, he's now like so many tech bros converted to, to a Trump, to a Trump collaborator, an enabler. And I mean, it's kind of shocking to see how quickly the tech community has sort of migrated to that side. I know billionaires in the 80s and 90s, they, they were first of all not as numerous, and secondly, I think they were better behaved. You know, they, they mostly picked on CEOs with the, with the, with the one exception of the Koch brothers. They were always playing this game that these guys are now playing.
- [39:43]
Ari Melber
It would seem that the culture of a society matters. I think we agree on that. Yeah.
- [39:47]
Jay McInerney
Yes, absolutely.
- [39:49]
Ari Melber
The culture of tech feels now that it's absorbed, different than the finance of the 80s or the old barons who hurt a lot of people in their labor practices, but we're actually building things. Does it matter that so many of these companies and the culture around them are very top heavy and a few people benefit? The things they build, though, aren't really out here for us. They're just all a lot of virtual stuff that's feeding people into these algorithms. Does it matter for our culture that we're ruled by these techies instead of the former elites?
- [40:27]
Jay McInerney
Well, I think, I hate to be nostalgic for a time that I wasn't really even conscious, but, you know, but the captains of industry used to be the millionaires, if not the billionaires, and they were, you know, building brick and mortar institutions and systems of distribution. And that just feels a lot different than the sources of wealth today. I don't think none of those people that you put on the screen were running a company that provides goods, I guess the Internet, yeah, most of them are virtual.
- [41:10]
Ari Melber
Bezos would say he's an Intermediary for goods and Musk, of course, famously has a car company among his empire. But yes, most of this is virtual and a lot of it benefits off just people's use. So everybody Googles and everybody who rides the algorithm one way or another, but they're sort of in control but not sated. I mean, they're much more political now we see than prior robber barons and such. They sort of have decided they gotta, they gotta be in it or they're gonna get eaten is how they look at it.
- [41:42]
Jay McInerney
Yeah, well, you know, I, I, I'm always amused when I even in the segment you mentioned, you know, the greed and the excess of the 80s and frankly, it just seems incredibly quaint given the greed and excess that we're talking about now. And the numbers are multiples of what we were talking about in the 80s. And the Dow hit like 3,000 when I was a young man in New York and that was considered a really big deal.
- [42:12]
Ari Melber
Yeah. I want to get your view on the power of public free speech. Colbert is in this fight with his parent company which is owned by MAGA people. So the fix is in on them saying, okay, we'll do what they want. Here was more of his response. Without ever talking to me, the corporation put out this press release, this statement.
- [42:35]
Ty Cobb
Now this is a surprisingly small piece.
- [42:37]
Ari Melber
Of paper considering how many butts it's trying to cover. I'm just so surprised that this giant global corporation would not stand up to these bullies. I don't even know what to do with this crap.
- [42:50]
Ty Cobb
Oh, hold on.
- [43:05]
Ari Melber
What is the role of the artist in, in this MAGA corporate moment? And does it matter when people stand up like he does?
- [43:13]
Jay McInerney
Well, I think it matters greatly that Stephen Colbert stands up. On the other hand, he can because he's Stephen Colbert and there are people like him who were created long before Donald Trump thought of running for office, who have a kind of residual power. But younger broadcasters, younger comics, what are they going to do in the current environment? It looks like we're about to have three or four Trump propaganda arms instead of just Fox News now, you know, you've got CBS is on the way, owned by Skydance and you know, and the Allisons who are Trump apologists and Trump enablers. And if they have their way, they will soon own Warner Brothers, making CNN another arm of right wing media. Basically.
- [44:17]
Ari Melber
Right. What you're telling people, reminding people is that deal's not done. Netflix wanted Warner. It's the same folks that Colbert says are acting like this who want to get their hands on cnn. Let's end on a high note. Jay, who are you wearing?
- [44:31]
Jay McInerney
Giffonelli Taylor. Based in Paris.
- [44:34]
Ari Melber
I think it looks good on you.
- [44:35]
Jay McInerney
Well, thank you.
- [44:36]
Ari Melber
You know, we don't like to perpetuate.
- [44:38]
Jay McInerney
I'm a fan of blue.
- [44:39]
Ari Melber
You're a fan of blue. We don't like to perpetuate stereotypes around here, but you clean up pretty well for a novelist.
- [44:45]
Jay McInerney
I, you know, I slouch around in a t shirt.
- [44:49]
Ari Melber
Jay McInerney. I'm a fan, which is why it's sometimes fun in this job, even though we talk about serious things to get to talk to novelists I've been reading my whole life. We'll be right back. Thanks for watching the Beat with Ari Melbourne. You can always connect with me online@ari melber.com that's my name.com. keep it locked right here, day or night.
- [45:12]
Emily Bazelon
VRBoCare is here 247 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.