← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Blue States Check Trump Amid Legal Firestorm Over Troop Deployments
00:41:54
President Trump is escalating the use of the military in cities across the country. MSNBC's Ari Melber reports and is joined by Reverend Al Sharpton and Vanity Fair's Molly Jong-Fast.
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- [00:00]
Rob Lowe
Are you a parent looking for an independent, flexible and tuition free school in Oregon? Evergreen Virtual Academy offers a dynamic and tuition free public education with Oregon certified teachers for PK through 12th grade students. Your student gets a laptop, live class sessions, and the ability to chart their own unique path. Plus in person events and social activities all year. When school has no walls, learning has no limits. Learn more and enroll now. Evergreen Virtual Academy, evergreenvirtual.org hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here.
- [00:32]
If you haven't heard. I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:06]
Ari Melber
Welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Malber. We're reporting on what you can see is clearly a breaking point in the use of federal force over the weekend. And I'm gonna just show you some key moments here and you can see with your own eyes what it looks like to be patrolled in America under the Trump administration. Right now, President Trump is radically expanding the use of military style militarized and sometimes actual military patrols. These are new images. You can see federal agents in tactical gear in Portland, Oregon, brandishing their crowd control rifles and their gas masks. There was a smoke grenade deployed. You can see that there. It's outside an ICE detention facility in Chicago. We saw federal agents using tear gas and that wasn't being used for, say, an immigration raid alone or for say, public safety. There are times where lawful use of those methods can be for the public safety. But much of this on screen with these images was to counter the public reaction from protesters, including American citizens exercising their rights against this. What you see this is America over the weekend and there's a lot going on and we'll get into it. And if you watch this program, you know, we cover a lot of different things, but if you lived on that blocker in that community, you can imagine what a big deal it is. If you're in some other part of the country or a red state that's not getting this kind of treatment, maybe you're less aware of it, but this is the news. We saw one agent seen with a tear gas launcher. These federal forces under Trump are also clearly girded and ready to for escalation. You gotta pack those type of weapons to then be ready to use them. The AP nonpartisan outlet reporting just the facts that the Trump administration has helicopters and chemical agents ready to go as immigration agents are increasingly, quote, aggressive. In Chicago, they also ran a, quote, military style raid which landed a helicopter. There were windows cracked, doors broken down. I'm showing you this because this is what's happening. It's an escalation of, quote, aggressive, as the AP put it, military tactics ordered by President Trump in our American cities. And much of it is blatantly partisan targeting. So you can have one debate about the use of force and how far to go, then you have another debate about whether this is the use of force for all places in the country that wouldn't make it okay, but would make it uniform, or whether things are so politicized and that's getting so normalized that the president has these kind of aggressive tactics with the launchers I showed you here in places that he perceives as his opposition and something else there in places he perceives as his support, which is, according to the Constitution, an un American view, when we are all equal before the law. The president using the feds and the places that voted against him and thus trying to override what has been largely Democratic governors pushing back against this. And he's tried to pull in guard troops from other states in a highly unusual bid to do an end run around some of the restrictions that protect your rights. Judges have rejected or narrowed some of these efforts when tested in the courts rulings admonishing the president for treating America like a war zone and for treating you American citizens like some sort of foreign threat. Now, that is becoming quite literal because I can tell you they're not stopping at the images I just showed you. There is now discussion in the military, among Pentagon brass and the generals about using the Army's 82nd Airborne, deploying that here at home. It's an infantry division that is typically, as one report put it, for combat zones. Indeed, that is where it was used in both world wars, Vietnam and Afghanistan. You see what's happening. It's not about whether you agreed with Trump or voted for Trump. This is not normal and the public knows it. We're talking about footage of war zones because if I go to fine and our producers and journalists find, well, where do we get a picture, an image or a video of the 82nd Infantry? You're going to get video from past wars because that's when any other president in either party ever used it. The public is not okay with this. One example I showed you the photos of the force. We also saw protesters out, many of them peaceful, one holding this sign, pleading with us to see it. And I will say this protester is seen. I showed you the ICE agents, I showed you federal forces. I'm also going to show you people standing up the protester telling the nation this message, your humanity is more important than your orders are. That might apply to people directly inside the government who of course, have orders from the president. But lately, with this kind of president, that could apply to people on college campuses or in media organizations where the president is trying to issue orders and see who will fall in line. Remember, some of the largest Trump protests are about this exact abuse of power. No kings, no military rule. There are other things that has made Trump unpopular. We can get into those. But the big no kings protests were about this type of abuse of power and how this can correlate with attacks on democracy and elections themselves. The nonpartisan outlet Politico reports, as a matter of fact, not criticism, that it's become clear the president hopes to normalize a use of the military on American streets to quell protests and enforce his policy agenda. That's not what the military is for. The pushback continues. The Democratic governor of illinois speaking out. U.S. citizens, including children, have been traumatized and detained. This escalation of violence is targeted and intentional and premeditated. The Trump administration is following a playbook.
- [07:21]
Rev. Al Sharpton
Cause chaos, create fear and confusion, make.
- [07:25]
Ari Melber
It seem like peaceful protesters are a mob. He wants to justify and normalize the presence of armed soldiers under his direct command. This is happening here now, I mentioned the laws against this military is legally restricted from patrolling American citizens. And the president at times has seemed to flout that. Other times has rooted this in what are potentially lawful goals. ICE enforcement, immigration enforcement. Those are valid federal powers, but not when used as a pretext. Only in parts of the country we have immigration issues, for example, across many border states, Texas among them. Chicago is not the only place. And so there is going to be potentially a larger reckoning over whether this is a real thing or normalizing the abuse of power thing. The rulings against this are important because they're testing what they can get away with in the new clashes. We can report that tonight Illinois, Oregon and California are taking Trump to court, trying to stop them from sending these guard troops across different state lines as the end run. A federal judge ruled this week that we still are a nation of constitutional law, not martial law. And warning against blurring the line between a civil and military federal power to the detriment of this nation. That judge blocked Trump a second time. POLITICO's headline Judge blocks Trump's National Guard deployment in Portland for a second time because of the loophole effort to get around the first blockage by moving these troops from one state to another. People often ask, when will we have a constitutional crisis? Will it be clear? Will it be like the Saturday Night Massacre under Nixon or some earlier periods of history? Whatever you want to pull from. But you have to remember some crises don't happen in a dramatic single moment. Sometimes they happen slowly over time until you look up and you say, why are there so many militarized people or actual soldiers or the 82nd infantry patrolling my line to the polls in the midterms? And by then, if you want to go to court and stop it, it may be too late. I want to bring in Reverend Al Sharpton, the host of Politics Nation here on msnbc, founder of the National Action Network, and among other things, an expert on the long struggle for voting rights in this country which is relevant to these federal powers. And Molly Zhang, fast, an MSNBC analyst and we can note tonight now a contributing opinion writer f the New York Times. Congrats to you on that media news.
- [10:06]
Molly Jong-Fast
Thank you.
- [10:08]
Ari Melber
Great to have you both here. Rev, I'll start with you. This type of federal power being used in these certain places tells you what about where we are in watching the autocratic risk tonight.
- [10:21]
Rev. Al Sharpton
Well, we are very close to an autocracy if we're not there. When you see this kind of of force being used military style on US Citizens under the guise of we're going after illegal immigrants and when you see the policies that are side by side with it, it is a cause for us to hit the alarm button in this country for democracy. When we see this president put tariffs on China at 145 and and then bails out Argentina. And then what he did was break some of the farmers that voted for him that were depending on selling soybeans to China. And then Argentina took the bailout money and started selling soybeans to China. So there's not even a rhyme or reason to what he's doing. It's brute force and it's on American citizens, kids dragged out in Chicago putting zip bags. This is unless believable and is un American.
- [11:27]
Ari Melber
And Molly, you get the feeling that he's not doing it everywhere because there's a heck of a lot of places that wouldn't like it.
- [11:35]
Molly Jong-Fast
And if you listen to that Pritzker press conference today, he talks about why is Donald Trump targeting Illinois. And he also talked about, I mean, the thing that was so striking about that press conference is somebody was killed in. You know, Pritzker was talking about this. They, they have not gotten good answers from ice. And I think it is really scary. The one thing that gives me a little bit of, I don't wanna say hope, but little bit of hope is that you see these Democratic AGs and Democratic governors pushing back, documenting everything. And what Pritzker said yesterday or a couple days ago, which I think was so important, was he said, stay peaceful and document everything. You have a cell phone, you have a video, you have a lot of power in that cell phone.
- [12:23]
Ari Melber
And rev, they are losing in the courts a lot, sometimes slowly, sometimes in ways where the courts seem to be deliberately trying to sidestep rather than having the clash right now. But in history, we have seen in the civil rights and racial context that rulings that support human rights or voting rights sometimes are very much fought. We've tested, when we talk about, well, will it hold? We've tested this before. And I want to show very powerful person, the number two at the White House, Stephen Miller, using language that sounds a bit like what we've heard in other eras where people said, well, maybe we won't follow desegregation orders in the South. They don't follow the orders they don't like. And how far that went. Let's take a look. You called a legal ruling legal insurrection. Are you recommending the president take action.
- [13:11]
Rev. Al Sharpton
Against judges he views he disagrees with them?
- [13:14]
Ari Melber
No, it's simply a factually accurate statement that when a judge assumes for him or herself the powers that have been relegated or delegated by the Constitution to the President, that that is a form of a legal insurrection and we have seen carry legal weight. So are you recommending.
- [13:31]
Rev. Al Sharpton
No, we. No, the.
- [13:32]
Ari Melber
The. We have seen over the last nine months a ongoing legal insurrection. What are the lessons in the past when you have the government? Sometimes it was governor, sometimes it's the president trying to test whether they're going to follow these orders. Because in the past, there were fights, but the rule of law helped.
- [13:54]
Rev. Al Sharpton
I think the rule of law helped. But even then they had to fight to get the rule of law to be enforced. And what we're seeing in terms of what's going on with Vice in Chicago, wanting to do it in Portland and other places is we're seeing. They're pressing to see how far they could go. And the question is, if we are going to be a nation of laws, then the Laws must kick in to save the nation. Real patriots are going to save the nation. Even if their politics may agree with the president or his staff. They are there to enforce the law or you end up chaotic. They, when you look at, even at the same time parallel, they're doing the redistricting, which is to undermine voting rights in this country. So we've gone from a country that had become a union after the Civil War. We're going back to states rights now where we'll draw the districts the way we want. We'll disempower people based on how we decide who can be elected, based on the likelihood of the makeup of a congressional district. And we're going to take away your rights, including innocent children. The pictures of us that we've seen of children In Chicago, babies, 2 year old, 3 year olds dragged out. How could they be suspects of illegal immigrants? This is targeted, it is racial, it is based on nationality and is wrong and it's illegal. And we expect the judicial system to stand up if checks and balances is going to hold in this country.
- [15:34]
Ari Melber
And Trump is doubling down on this rhetoric. A little bit of what he's just said. Take a look, Molly.
- [15:42]
Brandon Carr
But we have to take care of this little gnat that's on our shoulder called the Democrats. They want to give all of our money to illegal aliens that pour into the country.
- [15:51]
Ari Melber
That was this weekend.
- [15:52]
Molly Jong-Fast
Yeah. No, look, and I think a really good point here that the Rebe was talking about was the, that judge that ruled against Trump, that was a Trump appointed judge. So I think that we are seeing a moment here where this is illegal, it's not normal. It's also not popular. Like the polling on this is terrible. So the question is, how far will Donald Trump let Stephen Miller go? Because at some point Donald Trump is going to look at his phone and he's going to look at the polling and he's going to be like, this is nuts.
- [16:21]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And that's what I want to turn to next is we know this is unpopular and we know it's being done in a targeted way, as they call it, the blue states. So what happens when it encroaches wider or how do you find some common cause across the states? Our guests are staying. So my thanks to both of you. I'm gonna fit in a quick break and we'll be back.
- [16:43]
Rev. Al Sharpton
A Trump advisor said ICE agents will attend the super bowl after Bad Bunny was announced as the halftime performer.
- [16:50]
Ari Melber
You know, to catch all those farm.
- [16:51]
Rev. Al Sharpton
Workers who can afford super bowl tickets.
- [16:55]
Ari Melber
Saturday Night Live. Back with that joke. Rev. The humor there is that it almost seems like programming sometimes like content to the White House about, oh, wherever Bad Bunny performs, there must be undocumented individuals. And yet it's not a laughing matter anymore.
- [17:12]
Rev. Al Sharpton
It's not a laughing matter because his racial profiling at its highest level. But this is coming from the president. And I think that we are challenged in this country to what is the standard and the values that we stand for. If you take super bowl, which is one of the largest events in this culture, in American culture, and turn it into where you have people being shocked around to see if you look like you're a certain nationality and therefore you're an automatic suspect, your nationality, your color, your language makes you a suspect. I think that this suspends any of the civil and human rights this country has proclaimed to stand for and was made to live up to in the civil rights movement, in the abolitionist movement, in the women's movement. And I think that Trump is going to run up against that over time. I remember when I was a teenager, we would fight about the Vietnam War. This looks like nothing compared to the LBJ never did this. And we thought this was the worst we'd seen. But I think that, you know, I believe Martin Luther King used to quote that Truth Crush to earth will rise again. I think that Americans will rise up, including some of the red state farmers I mentioned and others saying, wait a minute, this is not the country.
- [18:35]
Ari Melber
It's out of hand. And the president, Molly, just made remarks late today. We just got talking about other ways to expand power or even the Insurrection Act. Let's take a look at this new sound. The Insurrection Act.
- [18:49]
Joyce Vance
Under what conditions or terms would you.
- [18:50]
Brandon Carr
Well, I do it if it was necessary. So far, it hasn't been necessary, but we have an Insurrection act for a reason. If I had to enact it, I'd do that. If people were being killed and courts were holding us up, or governors or mayors were holding us up, sure, I'd do that. I mean, I want to make sure that people aren't killed. We have to make sure that our cities are safe.
- [19:12]
Ari Melber
Molly, on the one hand, we see this a lot with, first of all, there's limits on which reporters are getting access to him. And then sometimes the questions are all, like, outflanking him.
- [19:20]
Rev. Al Sharpton
Right.
- [19:21]
Ari Melber
But on the other hand, he seems eager to flex that. Hey, it could get even worse.
- [19:27]
Molly Jong-Fast
So we saw this between Trump 1.0 and Trump 2.0. It was that they found a bunch of these sort of zombie laws and got them ready to use. And another one is Comstock. They've tried to work on Comstock, which is this law that, again, they're using for abortion bills. It was never intended for that. And look, he's gonna try to make legal arguments for things, and then sometimes he's going to not, and he's just gonna lose in court. I just think that I still. I think what the Rev was just saying about how the American people, I do think that they are better than this and that the sight of tanks rolling onto suburban streets because there are four or five protesters there, I think that that is a losing gambit for this White House.
- [20:11]
Rev. Al Sharpton
I think she's absolutely right. And I think that, you know, sometimes great movements are when people come forward and embrace each other, and sometimes it's when they back into each other because they've been assaulted or attacked by the same forces. I think Americans are going to back into each other. And here we are on the eve of what happened in Israel October 7th, and we're dealing with what's going on in Gaza. The contradiction of trying to resolve and get peace in the Middle east while you are assaulting American citizens at the same time is a glaring contradiction of the Trump years.
- [20:50]
Ari Melber
And what do you say, Rev, to people who sometimes are shocked that we got to this place, and yet there's long been a battle in America over redeeming these rights. Martin Luther King and other civil rights activists that you've worked with your whole life talked about, no, America didn't start there. We're going to try to redeem it. We're going to try to make it true. And I'm curious how that plays now, because the initial response to Trump on the left was as a kind of aberration. And we remember that this is not us. That language now, it seems to be much more. This is a problem in America because on division, on abuse of power, on whether we are truly a democracy or ever were, this is a ongoing struggle, not something that you're going to finish off in one election.
- [21:36]
Rev. Al Sharpton
Coretta Scott King used to say, this is not going to be won in one generation. It is a continual battle, she would always say. And Martin III always reminds me of the quote, that this is not a sprint, it's a marathon. And they passed the baton to the next generation. The baton has been passed to those of us that are active now that we've got to protect everything this country stood for. There's always been those on the other side that wanted to make male supremacy white supremacy. National supremacy run this country and those on the other side that wanted America to live up to its stated goals and its stated mottos. And I think the battle continues. Our generation should not be the one to fumble the baton.
- [22:24]
Ari Melber
Powerful remarks, especially when you look at those images we've been covering. Reverend Sharpton, Molly Jong, Fast. My thanks to both of you. Can always catch Politics Nation weekends, 5pm Eastern on MSNBC. Trump's DOJ case against James Comey has more problems and they're coming from inside the Trump doj. We'll explain. And the free speech crackdown. I've got a special report coming up and we do mix it up around here. Bad Bunny and SNL have their own take on Donald Trump.
- [22:56]
Brandon Carr
I'm just here keeping my eye on snl, making sure they don't do anything too mean about me. And they better be careful because I know late night TV like the back of my hand. They better be on their best behavior, otherwise they'll have to answer to my attack dog at the fcc. Brandon Carr, thanks.
- [23:27]
Ari Melber
Wow.
- [23:31]
Brandon Carr
All right.
- [23:32]
Ari Melber
Brandon Carr is now an SNL impression. That's not something you normally see from the fcc. Of course, it's not supposed to be political. He's getting an SNL impression because of his very political, partisan, probably unconstitutional efforts to censor television. Now, the host of the season premiere of SNL this weekend was Bad Bunny. And although he's known for his music and his dancing and is a very popular global artist, they had a little number where he had to get his dig back at Fox News, which has been featuring some commentary criticizing him getting the big nod to play the super bowl halftime show.
- [24:18]
Rev. Al Sharpton
You might not know these, but I'm.
- [24:21]
Ari Melber
Doing the super bowl halftime show and I'm very happy. I'm very happy and I think everyone is happy about it, even, even Fox News. Bad Bunny is my favorite musician and he should be the next president.
- [24:48]
Brandon Carr
Thank you.
- [24:49]
Ari Melber
HE LAUGHS thank you. Having a little fun with the editing. That's what they call words out of context. Of course, that's a comedy show. I can tell you on the news, no one at Fox said that whole sentence together. The meaning obviously changed for the punchline. But there's no joke about how Trump and his FCC and administration want to abuse power and basically play leverage games or threats or shakedowns. So you might not hear jokes or other criticism that takes aim at the incumbent government, which is, of course antithetical to the First Amendment. While Trump lost clash with Jimmy Kimmel over whether he'd stay on the air, there are continued threats, blatantly vowing to abuse the fcc to go after TV networks based on what he views as their criticism of them, their First Amendment protected rights. Trump also going at perceived opponents. Former FBI Director James Comey will be arraigned Wednesday. CBS is now reporting that the FBI is considering doing a showy perp walk style arrest for the former FBI director. That would be unusual for what is a single case about whether his testimony to Congress was essentially perjurious. One agent apparently was so concerned about this plan, they balked and have now been suspended. The request, though, is for, quote, large beefy agents to come do the arrest with bulletproof vests and visible FBI logos. And that's on the show side. Then there's the substance. Remember I told you before, they've already investigated all of the issues in the Comey case. There was a whole special counsel tapped by Donald Trump, John Durham, and they looked into all this and didn't find a case. And that's coming back up now. Which could doom Trump's effort, I should say, to prosecute or jail Comey because ABC News has a report that Durham already told the DOJ there was no evidence in a four year probe supporting the very thing that they're going after Comey for now. Sources saying DOJ leaders repeatedly voiced skepticism about this new Comey case. No career prosecutor was willing to present it. That is weak. Trump is adding though, to the list of people who are either indicted with charges dropped, subpoenaed, searched, harassed, threatened. One thing you don't see on here yet is anyone actually convicted for what legal experts say are increasingly unscrupulous, possibly unlawful, selective prosecutions. So where do we go from here as they prep a possible perp walk? The guy who used to oversee the whole FBI, well, Joyce Vance, veteran prosecutor, is here next.
- [27:44]
Rob Lowe
Are you a parent looking for an independent, flexible and tuition free school in Oregon? Evergreen Virtual Academy offers a dynamic and tuition free public education with Oregon certified teachers for PK through 12th grade students. Your student gets a laptop, live class sessions and the ability to chart their own unique path. Plus in person events and social activities. When school has no walls, learning has no limits. Learn more and enroll now. Evergreen Virtual Academy, evergreenvirtual.org hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here.
- [28:16]
If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J.
- [28:40]
Ari Melber
Fox.
- [28:41]
Rob Lowe
There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:51]
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- [29:26]
Ari Melber
We're back with Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney and MSNBC legal analyst. Welcome. Hi Joyce.
- [29:32]
Joyce Vance
Hey, Ari.
- [29:34]
Ari Melber
Great to have you. We showed that for the first time in modern memory, the FCC chair has become an impression on SNL or a laughingstock, partly because that role's supposed to just be ordinary, but it's become quite a radical lightning rod. What do you think about now that the dust has settled, how on the one hand they lost the battle over Kimmel, but as we mentioned, Trump continues to threaten, citing the fcc, other networks and continues to sue and seems to be eager to distort what what can be said or reported in this country.
- [30:17]
Joyce Vance
Well, frankly, Ari, I think Trump is his own worst enemy. If he would like to have the opportunity to engage in this sort of retaliation, he might have been best to do that in the shadows. The fact that he's spoken repeatedly and openly about it gives anyone who he chooses to go after a built in defense. And I think that there are plenty of folks out there in our communities who've started to understand that appeasement doesn't work, that the only way to deal with an anti Democratic bully and is to stand up. So in essence, the president is giving lawyers the evidence that they need to fight back in courts.
- [30:53]
Ari Melber
Right? Right. The evidence that in normal First Amendment cases, and I've been involved in some, you say, well how can you prove the government had that reason and not some more defensible one? And here you can prove it. Some of these cases, as you mentioned, aren't going to court because of appeasement on the FBI plans. James Comey, someone you know well from being in doj, you know, his public work, CBS says the FBI weighing this arrest and quote perp walk, actively working to put together a team to arrest him. And the court appearance we should update is now going to be Wednesday. FBI supervisors refuse to cooperate. They need to find someone and they have what I mentioned, the former Trump appointed prosecutor Looked into this already and said, no case, no dice. What does all of this tell you about the substance of the case versus what may be orders from on high to embarrass or humiliate Comey, even if they don't think they're going to win at trial?
- [31:53]
Joyce Vance
Yeah, I mean, I think that you've just nailed exactly what's going on here, because the substance of this case looks worse the more that we learn about it. You know, Judge Michael Nachmanoff in the Eastern District of Virginia has already rescheduled Comey's sentence, or rather Comey's arraignment because he had security concerns. I can't remember ever seeing a judge do that, suissante on his own initiative, and he's not clear about why he did it here. But we know that he's rescheduled because he was concerned about others who might be in the courthouse at this time on the per walk sort of threat that's coming from the Justice Department. DOJ policy strictly prohibits perp walks. It actually falls within the media policy where prosecutors are told that they can't do anything to, in essence, make it possible for the media to put a spotlight on the fact that a defendant has been arrested. The question is, what constitutes a perp walk? Obviously, we've all seen situations where there have been arrests and the media is there and has access to photos. But in a situation like this where you waited until someone was on the verge of being arraigned, if you then arrested them using big, beefy agents who were fully kitted out in bulletproof vests and then paraded that defendant in front of the press, I think that would violate the policy. Not that that would concern these folks, but what it would do is lend additional evidence to the inevitable motion we'll see from Comey's team for some form of selective or vindictive prosecution, saying that he's being targeted for revenge, in essence, by this administration, and that goes into.
- [33:33]
Ari Melber
These pretrial motions, how do you expect judges to view that, given the extraordinary public record? I mean, many have commented that what Nixon did in private, it was seen as disqualifying Trump does in public and does far worse in the second term than in the first. So on the one hand, it's available. On the other hand, do judges themselves get sort of normalized to this because he's admitted the goal and he publicly demanded the indictment before we got it? We've never had that happen in the modern era.
- [34:07]
Joyce Vance
So there's an evidentiary threshold when defendants try to make out a case for selective or vindictive prosecution. And usually it's almost insurmountable because there's a presumption that the government acts in a regular, in a regular way, which means in an ethical and an honest fashion. And there has been some doubt cast in scholarly writing on whether or not this administration deserves to have that presumption and that to say the defense may have a little bit of an easier case here than they do normally when making these sorts of motions that a defendant has been victimized by the government. What that would do, by the way, if they, if they prevail at that threshold level, is they would get discovery from the government. You know, what led to this prosecution. And that could be very illuminating here, where you have, for instance, John Durham, who was Donald Trump's picked to be a special counsel in his first administration, saying, look, I, I looked at this defendant and we never found anything. Now, that's not evidence in and of itself. I don't think you can put John Durham on the witness stand at trial to elicit his opinion. What it does do is it triggers the government's obligation to turn over any exculpatory evidence to Jim Comey from that source or any other. So ultimately, there's a lot of peril here for the government to, if they take this case forward.
- [35:30]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And they seem intent on doing it. They literally change prosecutors to do it. As you say, the exculpatory material is voluminous. And so then that goes to how they put that before the court on more than one topic. And big stuff going on. Joyce, thank you. When we come back, the Democratic governors who've been pushing back against Trump in court, but apparently getting under his skin in private. Top Democrats fighting back against Trump. California Governor Gavin Newsom has joined that Oregon lawsuit over the National Guard that we reported on. Newsom, of course, brought the very first effort to stop Trump in court in this term. Indeed, he's now become a pretty leading national Democrat who makes an impact against Trump. The two trading barbs, ever since this.
- [36:26]
Rob Lowe
Brazen abuse of power by a sitting.
- [36:28]
Brandon Carr
President, where Gavin Newscomb, who's really an incompetent governor, it's or Wellingham. Look at the job he's doing in California. He's destroying one of our great states, his mess.
- [36:39]
Ari Melber
We're trying to clean it up.
- [36:41]
Brandon Carr
He's an incompetent governor, He's a failed president.
- [36:44]
Ari Melber
Boom, boom, boom. They clearly have burns for each other. And you know, there's also this kind of long standing artistic trope. That when you get to that level of hatred, it gets obsessive and therein it can get a little romantic. Even now, we tend to turn to lyrics around here. And I gotta tell you, there are new Taylor Swift lyrics that channel this point because of an apparent rival. She says, it's actually sweet. All the time you've spent on me, it's actually romantic. Which could really apply to Trump's fixation on Newsom. And if you're saying, okay, we're just trying to force a lyric into the news, I have news on that. The California governor now quoting Taylor Swift herself to make this point in a new video against Trump.
- [37:32]
Joyce Vance
But it's actually sweet. All the time you've spent on me, it's honestly wild. All the effort you've put in, it's actually romantic. I really gotta hand it to you. Ooh, no man has ever loved me like you do.
- [37:58]
Ari Melber
All that effort now. Things move pretty fast nowadays, especially when it comes to Swifties who devour her every lyric. And note, another Democrat getting in on this. 79 year old Senator Markey remixing the brand new album along with plenty of other fans.
- [38:15]
Joyce Vance
It's actually romantic. The Life of a Showgirl is the kind of album that you release under an authoritarian regime. There's a lot to be happy about. And honestly, this world is so scary and miserable that I don't want to.
- [38:29]
Molly Jong-Fast
Choose to dislike this album.
- [38:37]
Joyce Vance
Love, Girlies, Engage and I'm here for it.
- [38:41]
Ari Melber
And this is just, of course, in the first few days of a new project, those of us who used to buy physical albums, CDs, records, tapes could take months for it to get absorbed. So those are some politicians quoting it. The album itself is not super formally political, even if the issues that Swift has addressed are of course now being tested in Trump's America. That includes the right to vote and women's health care rights. She has been more politically outspoken in other projects and at other points in her career that includes her activism opposing Trump's election.
- [39:19]
Joyce Vance
The jury signed my favor and said that they believed me. I just wanted to say I'm sorry to anyone who ever wasn't believed.
- [39:26]
Ari Melber
Taylor Swift comes out against Trump.
- [39:29]
Joyce Vance
I don't care if they write that. I'm sad that I didn't two years ago, but I can't change that. I'm saying right now that this is something that I know is right and you guys, I need to be on the right side of history. And if he doesn't win, then at least I, I, at least I tried.
- [39:47]
Rob Lowe
She says Quote, I will be casting my vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walls.
- [39:53]
Ari Melber
What you saw there. And Swifties, no, but for everyone else is back in the day, her discussing with her own team. Yes, camera's on. But whether or not to do things that would endanger being seen as against Trump. And she said, at least I tried. And in 2024 last year, she tried again. And of course, we measure elections by who wins and loses. Everybody knows that. But there are other measures, like civic participation. It mattered. Whenever she has weighed in thousands of new voter registrations, people make up their own mind. But she got young people and other fans activated. Now, in this album, Life of a Showgirl, there's not that same type of electoral politics. But we are reporting on culture here as we do on the beat. And Taylor does confront some of the double standards that women still face in 2025, from office life to culture to the music industry that she inhabits. On Cancelled, she says, did you girl boss too close to the sun? Did you make a joke only a man could? Rhetorical questions that have an answer, obviously. She seems to be speaking about how the things that men still get away with in all sorts of ways are just not acceptable all the time for women, including, if we're understanding her right, including women who are making incredible business cultural contributions. She's speaking at times, I think, about the double standard that even Taylor Swift's. Even Taylor Swift faces on Eldest Daughter. She talks about this Internet culture we live with, which now, of course, goes well beyond the Internet. Everybody's so punk on the Internet. Everybody's unbothered till they're not. Every joke's just trolling and memes. Sad as it seems, apathy is hot. Everybody's cutthroat in the comments. Every single hot take is cold as ice. That is the poet of our times, Taylor, looking out and then back inward. But if you follow American politics, how many times have you heard somebody say something bad, unacceptable, unlawful, and then if they get in any trouble, they say, you're the problem for being bothered and for caring. And maybe they were just joking or trolling. Well, in the workplace, there are some jokes that aren't okay to say, even as jokes. And in our democracy, perhaps musing about a third term or suspending elections is not acceptable, even if later you want to say you were just trolling. Now, there are many takes hot and cold about this new album and whether people think it lives up to the Taylor standard. The cultural cachet is not really up for debate. Indeed, consider the standard that Taylor mentions on the track Elizabeth Taylor. You're only as hot as your last hit baby. But the irony there when it comes to Taylor Swift, the new album was the most streamed in a day of any album this year. She's not just as hot as her last hit or her last album. And according to some of the politicians we're hearing from in America, they would do anything just to have people listen to their points. And if they have to speak a little Taylor, speak a little Swifty to get heard, apparently they're happy to do it. We'll be right back.
- [43:12]
Rob Lowe
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- [43:44]
Ted Danson
Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name and we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to Everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [44:14]
Rob Lowe
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- [44:48]
Ari Melber
We have been going from the pressure on Donald Trump's use of federal forces, the power of these protests. I showed you some of them tonight and a little bit of music. And of course, across history, music is a vital form of protest. We have a new one here from someone you might know, Neil Young's new track Big Crime, which doesn't name any politicians, but see if you get the message.
- [45:13]
Brandon Carr
No more greed again. No more greed again. Got big crime in D.C. at the White House out. Don't need no fascist rules don't want no fascist rules don't want soldiers walking on our street big crime in D.C. at the White House. There's big crime in D.C. at the White House.
- [45:45]
Ari Melber
Big crime in D/C. At the White House. And we don't want, quote, soldiers in our streets, which is something we've been seeing across the country just this weekend, something we've been reporting on. And there are many ways Americans are choosing to register their objection to soldiers in the streets. That's the final word tonight.
- [46:06]
Ted Danson
Hey, everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name. And we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts.