← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
BONUS POD: Ari Talks to Chef Carbone About Cooking, Pasta, NY Pizza, Plus Old School Music with Ish From Joe Budden Pod
00:31:41
In this podcast extra, Chef Mario Carbone joins Ari Melber for a conversation about restaurants, cooking and his path from shucking shrimp to building the Carbone empire. Then Ari hosts Ish from The Joe Budden Podcast for an extended discussion on rap today, Jay-Z, Jay Electronica, Lyor Cohen, haters, the impact of streaming, music that plays best outside and even the “Verizon Man.” These new interviews are a Beat bonus from our podcast series “The B-Side.” Real talk and Ari’s extended conversations off air.
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- [00:00]
Unidentified Narrator
Why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster, Nibbles, in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet Nibbles after his untimely end.
- [00:13]
Joe Budden
Huh?
- [00:14]
Unidentified Narrator
Nibbles gone too soon. May he scurry in peace.
- [00:17]
Ari Melber
Hey, sorry about your pet, but I just wire stuff.
- [00:20]
Unidentified Narrator
Nibbles would have loved you like a brother.
- [00:22]
Joe Budden
Connecting homeowners with skilled Pros for over 30 years, Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com.
- [00:30]
Monday.com Advertiser
close your eyes. Listen to Monday.com feel the sensation of an AI work platform. So flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Now open your eyes, go to Monday.com, start for free, and finally breathe.
- [00:46]
Ari Melber
Hey, it's Ari Melberg from Ms. Now, this is the B side, where I go a little deeper. And we're off air. But in the studio, I have the one and only chef Mario Carbone. Nice to see you.
- [00:54]
Chef Mario Carbone
Thank you for having me.
- [00:55]
Ari Melber
You know, I don't flex a lot, but I will say some people are trying to get a reservation at Carbone. We got Carbone in the studio. Pretty good.
- [01:03]
Chef Mario Carbone
I've come to you.
- [01:04]
Ari Melber
Exactly. We got a table for two. I want to ask you a couple fun things and then go a little deeper about your journey. But let's start simple. Favorite pasta shape?
- [01:14]
Chef Mario Carbone
Rigatoni.
- [01:15]
Ari Melber
Come on.
- [01:16]
Joe Budden
Okay.
- [01:17]
Ari Melber
Favorite comfort food, whether it's your restaurant or any kind.
- [01:20]
Chef Mario Carbone
Bowl of cereal.
- [01:21]
Ari Melber
Okay.
- [01:22]
Chef Mario Carbone
Yeah.
- [01:23]
Ari Melber
Which type are you eating?
- [01:24]
Chef Mario Carbone
I usually go cereal salad. So I mix cereal salad. I make a mix. I try to blend kind of a healthy thing with a maybe nostalgic not so healthy thing. I'm a big fan of Cocoa Pebbles.
- [01:37]
Ari Melber
Sure.
- [01:39]
Chef Mario Carbone
Cause y' all want the chocolate milk at the end.
- [01:40]
Ari Melber
Yeah. It gets chocolatey.
- [01:41]
Chef Mario Carbone
Right. And then with that, I'll kind of put in like a kashi kind of thing just to make myself feel better about it.
- [01:47]
Ari Melber
This might be very simple for you, but my go to in the dorm was they had the fro yo, and then I would put the cinnamon toast crunch in there, and by the end, you've got cinnamon ice cream.
- [01:59]
Chef Mario Carbone
That's how Ronnie came up with Katrits.
- [02:01]
Ari Melber
Yeah.
- [02:01]
Chef Mario Carbone
Yeah.
- [02:02]
Joe Budden
Okay.
- [02:03]
Ari Melber
Couple more. New York, which is so infused in your restaurants in whatever city in the world you are in. I've been to Carbone Miami, and it's like I was like, wait, am I in the village? In a good way. Your favorite restaurant in New York, other than yours, does Katz's count as a restaurant?
- [02:20]
Joe Budden
Sure.
- [02:20]
Chef Mario Carbone
Katz's.
- [02:20]
Ari Melber
Respect. And for people who aren't in New York, tell them what you like about Katz's.
- [02:24]
Chef Mario Carbone
Katz's is unbelievable because not only has it been around for over 100 years, so often those places are a bit of a letdown.
- [02:32]
Joe Budden
Right.
- [02:33]
Chef Mario Carbone
Their lore is greater than their product. Here the product is still somehow even better than the lure. Like, it is the absolute idyllic version of that thing. It's the best possible. Pastrami. It's the best possible. The way they do it with all the cutters, it's so unique.
- [02:50]
Ari Melber
The sandwich pile is very high, though.
- [02:52]
Chef Mario Carbone
It's a big sandwich. Yeah.
- [02:53]
Ari Melber
Yeah, it's a big sandwich. But you like that. That works.
- [02:55]
Chef Mario Carbone
I like everything about what they do, how long they've been doing it, and, like, the level of excellence they still operate.
- [03:01]
Ari Melber
At best New York.
- [03:03]
Chef Mario Carbone
Pizza slice or pie?
- [03:06]
Ari Melber
Slice.
- [03:06]
Chef Mario Carbone
Gotta be slice, slice. I'm gonna give love to the new guys. I'm gonna go with industry over what would traditionally be a Joe's.
- [03:14]
Ari Melber
Yeah, I like Joe's.
- [03:15]
Chef Mario Carbone
I love Joe's. But I'm going to give love to industry.
- [03:18]
Ari Melber
Your first job in this space?
- [03:21]
Chef Mario Carbone
My first job in this space was working a raw bar on Northern Boulevard in Queens at, like, a seafood chain restaurant. This is 1995. Maybe shucking clams and oysters, which I did not know how to do.
- [03:38]
Ari Melber
I love that. Most overrated restaurant trend.
- [03:43]
Chef Mario Carbone
Caviar, everything.
- [03:45]
Ari Melber
Because it's like, what are we doing?
- [03:46]
Chef Mario Carbone
It's just like, I can. I mean, you're just buying a product and putting it on top. There's no. There's no culinary effort here. It's just kind of a. It's kind of a check. Average hack.
- [03:57]
Ari Melber
Okay. This is two part.
- [03:59]
Chef Mario Carbone
Yep.
- [04:00]
Ari Melber
In a restaurant, most underrated ingredient. Something that really you like to work with.
- [04:07]
Chef Mario Carbone
Ingredient that I like to work with.
- [04:08]
Ari Melber
Yeah. In your. Yeah.
- [04:09]
Chef Mario Carbone
Most underrated. I mean, these days, it's like the humble bean. You know, like, I worked in Tuscany.
- [04:16]
Ari Melber
It's like, shout out to the bean.
- [04:17]
Chef Mario Carbone
The humble bean.
- [04:18]
Ari Melber
Yeah.
- [04:18]
Chef Mario Carbone
Where you been?
- [04:19]
Ari Melber
Okay.
- [04:20]
Chef Mario Carbone
No one orders soup anymore.
- [04:21]
Ari Melber
Nobody orders soup.
- [04:22]
Chef Mario Carbone
No one orders soup anymore. Soup used to be, like, the thing that. The substance that kept everybody moving. Like, we don't even touch soup anymore. I put it on the menu just because it looks good. No one orders it.
- [04:32]
Ari Melber
What about at home? Meaning something underrated that you could just spice up anything with, even if you're not a chef.
- [04:38]
Chef Mario Carbone
I keep A lot of. Kind of, like, I'll keep, like, all sorts of, like, products that I think just a spoonful will, like, really enhance things like Italian giardiniera vegetables, which are, like, pickled Italian vegetables. You'll find them in, like, you know, that, like, Italian aisle. Pickled cauliflower, peppers, carrots. It's all mixed up. You can throw that in a salad. A lot of, like, chili crunch. That's a good one. I'll buy either Dave Chang's. We're coming out with one. Pour that on eggs, pour it on pretty much anything. Have a great spice cabinet. Do the work to have a great spice cabinet. Cause that's gonna bail you out. A really boring, simple thing.
- [05:19]
Ari Melber
Simple question. What makes a good spice cabinet? Like, when you buy the whole thing together or when you go around and piece it together?
- [05:24]
Chef Mario Carbone
I like to go around and piece it together. Here in New York, there's an incredible store called SOS Chefs. Sos yeah, SOS Chefs. And their spice quality is crazy. They're beautifully fresh. They're well sourced. You get all sorts of great stuff there. And, like, just a pinch of that on something really basic.
- [05:42]
Ari Melber
Some eggs changes it, and you're there. All right, I got one more of these type of questions, then I want to talk a little about your journey. This is selfish. You know, in my business, one of my favorite parts about my job is I get to meet all these interesting people, yourself included. And sometimes I have questions for me, right? You get to, like, the top. Like, you. You're sitting there with the guy who ran the CIA, and you're like, this is my life. Like, that's. You know, I'm like, off the record. You know, camera off. Are there aliens? Have there ever been? Like, I need to know. You know what I mean? So mine for you is this.
- [06:13]
Chef Mario Carbone
What is the equivalent of that to me?
- [06:15]
Ari Melber
Well, now it might be a letdown. This is what I want to know. What is that for me, my whole life, and I'm a lawyer.
- [06:22]
Chef Mario Carbone
Yeah.
- [06:22]
Ari Melber
You look at the rules, you follow them. Unless you have a really good reason not to. That's kind of a baseline, right? My whole life, it says, oh, you want the pasta? Cook it seven to eight minutes. You want an al dente, cook it a minute less. Should we be cooking this pot, boiling this pasta, the amount of time it says on the box, or as I only heard recently, like, two minutes less than that. And then when you roll it in the olive oil and the sauce or whatever, it keeps cooking. And this is very relevant because now you can go to the store and get the carbon sauce. And we've mentioned that on the show. How long am I supposed to boil this pasta?
- [06:58]
Chef Mario Carbone
So, yes, that's a great tip. You want to pull it early. You want to put it. It depends on the sauce a little bit. Like, if you're just going olive oil or butter, then no, you don't have anything.
- [07:06]
Ari Melber
Okay, olive oil. Eight minutes means eight minutes.
- [07:09]
Chef Mario Carbone
Yeah. It needs to. Need something to drink it up. Right. So if you're making linguine, clams, great dish. You want to leave your. Once you've steamed open your clams, you want to leave that juicy.
- [07:18]
Joe Budden
You to want.
- [07:19]
Chef Mario Carbone
You want extra juice in there, good amount of the white wine, little bit of stock. Maybe you want to leave that pan really juicy so that when your linguine comes out, if it says 10 to 12 minutes on the bag, go 10, drop it in your juicy linguine pan, Turn it on kind of low, low, medium, low, and just let it simmer in there like it's risotto. Let it drink it up. Toss it, toss it, toss it. As you're tossing it, you're activating the starch.
- [07:43]
Ari Melber
I'm getting hungry. Keep going.
- [07:45]
Chef Mario Carbone
And then the starch from the pasta is letting itself out into the sauce. The whole thing is getting creamy without ever adding any dairy or any cheese into it.
- [07:52]
Ari Melber
But if I go into a sauce, eight minutes means if you're going into,
- [07:57]
Chef Mario Carbone
like, a tomato sauce, I'd say, you know, eight. I think the bag is probably telling you eight minutes is al dente. So go with that lower number. I would always go with that lower number. I don't like soft and then tomato sauce. You just want to kind of put it in there quick. Toss, toss, toss, little cheese.
- [08:14]
Ari Melber
So. So why don't they say that on the pasta box?
- [08:17]
Chef Mario Carbone
Because they're worried probably that they're going to pick a number. It's not going to be the right number for you, and you're going to call and complain. You're going to want your money back.
- [08:27]
Ari Melber
So they're airing on the.
- [08:29]
Joe Budden
All right.
- [08:30]
Ari Melber
Because I was really confused by that,
- [08:31]
Chef Mario Carbone
but I always go low.
- [08:33]
Ari Melber
I have some questions I wrote down, because that's what I do when I really like. Let me make sure I hit something. New York restaurant culture is a whole thing, and we've seen that spread to other cities. Obviously, other cities have their own thing going on, but the emphasis was always new, innovate, sometimes interesting fusion, sometimes silly gimmicks, but it was always new. Is it fair to Say Carbone tapped into nostalgia. You said, we're going to run it back, but for today's customers. And where did that come from?
- [09:06]
Chef Mario Carbone
Absolutely. I think at the time when Carbone first opened, we were definitely going against the grain. Right. What was expected of us as young chefs that were kind of coming up was like, if you're going to play in the fine dining arena, you're headed towards, like, this tasting menu thing.
- [09:21]
Ari Melber
Yep.
- [09:21]
Chef Mario Carbone
And we were going completely against the grain. We were doing burgundy tuxedos, veal parm the size of HUD caps, like old school Sinatra playing. It was completely against what was expected of us because it works as a business model. Then all of a sudden, right. Like, it's popular, it's busy. That works as a business model. Well, now people are going to try to emulate that, whether it's Italian or other ethnicities or other styles. You're looking at a whole now retrospective of throwbacks. Right. Everything is kind of a throwback, which makes sense because it also taps into that customer that you want a regular. You don't want a diner who's going to come once and be like, whether you liked it or not, I know what that place is all about. Check.
- [10:05]
Ari Melber
So now they're copying you.
- [10:07]
Joe Budden
Maybe.
- [10:08]
Ari Melber
Well, you know what Drake said? It's okay.
- [10:10]
Chef Mario Carbone
It's okay.
- [10:11]
Ari Melber
It's okay. He said, if everybody came up on a style that I made up, then tell me, who should I be afraid of? Carbona, also in Drake songs, if y' all don't know. All right, couple more things. I'm gonna let it wrap up. And this is the B side. We gotta get ready for tv, too. Here's what else I wrote down. Spicy rigatoni became iconic. Fair.
- [10:38]
Joe Budden
Fair.
- [10:40]
Ari Melber
Nas has a bar about is the thing. This is not like a name drop, but I happened to go to an HBO event this week thinking about, oh, I was thinking about you. And they had the mini station at the pool. It's a very nice, elegant room. And they don't have the whole menu, but, you know, they had the spicy rigatoni. Gotta have it from a creative perspective. You can bring, like, vision or art to anything from a creative perspective. And I say this respectfully, same way I talk to people in government. You didn't create the rigatoni?
- [11:13]
Chef Mario Carbone
Nope.
- [11:14]
Ari Melber
I don't think you created the spicy. This is Italian heritage. So what did you do or what happened that this became a thing? Or. Tell me if you view it differently.
- [11:23]
Chef Mario Carbone
I think it got framed into a really great host body of the restaurant.
- [11:29]
Ari Melber
Right. Host body? Yeah. Like, what does that mean?
- [11:31]
Chef Mario Carbone
Like carbone, the host body of spicy rigatoni. You know what I mean? Like, it got to live in this arena, this dish, and because it checks a bunch of boxes right, it's vegetarian. It's well known. I understand it. It's spicy. It's fun.
- [11:47]
Ari Melber
I never thought about it as vegetarian, I guess. Yeah, people care about that.
- [11:49]
Chef Mario Carbone
Well, that was the reason why I made the menu the first time, because when we were just about to open, I looked at the menu, and I realized that I thought it could use one more. We were too heavy vegetable. We were too heavy seafood and meat. I needed one more vegetarian.
- [12:02]
Ari Melber
Pasta can't be too heavy meat. And so, like, everybody's out here tripping, going to restaurants, being like, I can't eat this, this, this, this. Well, then maybe restaurant life's not for you.
- [12:12]
Chef Mario Carbone
Well, I mean, so then you're.
- [12:13]
Ari Melber
Maybe you should stay home and save some money, have a salad.
- [12:17]
Chef Mario Carbone
So imagine your most famous dish is good for everybody.
- [12:20]
Ari Melber
Well, is it good? How many nights a week can you eat pasta?
- [12:23]
Chef Mario Carbone
Me?
- [12:24]
Ari Melber
No. Should a person.
- [12:25]
Chef Mario Carbone
I mean, don't use me as a doctor, but, I mean, as an Italian American, you should have pasta at least once a week. Dr. Carbone.
- [12:32]
Ari Melber
Dr. Carbone. All right, this is. I asked you may or may not like this. I asked. AI. Yeah. What question would you have for Chef Carbone? You ready?
- [12:48]
Chef Mario Carbone
What did Allen Iverson have to say?
- [12:51]
Ari Melber
Chatgpt says Carbone feels very New York coded, loud, energetic, a little theatrical. How do you make a restaurant feel New York, even when it's somewhere else? And you have what, Vegas? Miami? Where else, Carbone?
- [13:06]
Chef Mario Carbone
Vegas, Miami, Dallas. We're in London, Doha, Riyadh, Hong Kong.
- [13:10]
Ari Melber
So is the robot right? And if so, how do you vibe for that?
- [13:15]
Chef Mario Carbone
I think it would be hard if the original wasn't New York. I think we're transporting the restaurant from Greenwich Village that people know the sound, the smell, the look, the taste of it, and we're transporting it to these other places. They understand the connectivity there. I think if you were to just kind of do it from scratch and have it not have been born in New York. You're working on it.
- [13:40]
Ari Melber
You're fighting uphill, because then you're almost in that, like, Disney or, like, hotel. Like, there's some cool hotels, but then some. You're like, oh, this is supposed to be like, Vegas. I mean, Vegas has changed so much, and there's incredible restaurants, as you know, there, and there's incredible performances and art there now. But Having said that, the old Vegas of like, oh, we're at like the Paris river or whatever, you know what I'm trying to say?
- [14:04]
Chef Mario Carbone
The Eiffel Tower.
- [14:05]
Ari Melber
Yeah. So you're saying you would run that risk if you didn't actually have a New York bona fide.
- [14:10]
Chef Mario Carbone
Yeah, even for us, we were running a risk. But the catapult that we had was the space that Carbone was, was already a hundred year old Italian restaurant called Rocco that had gone out of business.
- [14:20]
Ari Melber
That space right in the West Village
- [14:22]
Chef Mario Carbone
where we have Carbonez, that was an old Italian restaurant. That was an old Italian restaurant.
- [14:27]
Ari Melber
Has that neighborhood historically always been Italian?
- [14:29]
Chef Mario Carbone
Yeah, because on the corner is St. Anthony's of Padua and on the other corner is Our lady of Pompeii. So the Italian American and the Irish communities were built around the Roman Catholic churches. So that's how that became another pocket of Little Italy.
- [14:41]
Ari Melber
Interesting, because I live in Brooklyn and we got a lot of Italian neighborhoods.
- [14:44]
Chef Mario Carbone
We got a lot of churches too.
- [14:45]
Ari Melber
Yeah, a lot of churches.
- [14:46]
Joe Budden
Yep.
- [14:46]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Respect church in the wild, as they say. Your ability to build this thing. This is the last question I have
- [14:58]
Chef Mario Carbone
for this thing of ours.
- [14:59]
Ari Melber
Yeah, this thing of ours for the
- [15:02]
Chef Mario Carbone
people
- [15:04]
Ari Melber
you just told us you started. What you said shuck and oysters. Right. You have. I don't know if you put the numbers out there, but this is a pretty big international business.
- [15:14]
Chef Mario Carbone
Big company.
- [15:15]
Ari Melber
Yeah. You are how old now?
- [15:16]
Chef Mario Carbone
I'm 46 years old.
- [15:18]
Ari Melber
Wild. So for someone who has the dream of starting. Maybe it's a taco truck. Right. Maybe it's a little thing on the side. Maybe it's a restaurant, maybe they're hoping it turns into more. What is the key advice that you didn't know then? Obviously you have drive. A lot of people have drive. And you have some good recipes. You had vision. But what's the key advice you give? Man, if I knew when I was starting this.
- [15:39]
Chef Mario Carbone
I think the most relevant advice for today in particular is location. Doesn't location matters less now than ever before because of how we can spread the word, because of social media, because of the way that we can communicate amongst as a society. If you make something genuinely great, whatever it is, it could be a taco, it could be a smash, bro, whatever it is in our world. But if it's actually great, they're gonna come find you and you're gonna get crushed. You're gonna have a business on your.
- [16:12]
Ari Melber
Because in the year 2000 it would be. You gotta be in a good enough restaurant.
- [16:17]
Chef Mario Carbone
Location, location.
- [16:18]
Ari Melber
They Come from work, your other cool stuff. And you're saying you could actually save money on the rent or the spot.
- [16:23]
Chef Mario Carbone
Especially if you're starting off right.
- [16:24]
Ari Melber
Of course, Wasteland is a huge issue.
- [16:26]
Chef Mario Carbone
We still look for AAA spaces as we're building the company. Right. But if you're starting off and you've got an idea and you're going to act. So my advice is focus on the product. Make something that is better than everybody else's and they will find you.
- [16:41]
Ari Melber
This is the B side. Chef Carbone, thanks for coming.
- [16:45]
Chef Mario Carbone
B sidetrack. Give you a B side.
- [16:48]
Ari Melber
I'll give you a B side track. That's a great question title. Freestyle by Jay Z is a B side, particularly because it's acapella. He freestyle it the way he does his tracks. But at a concert, you can still find it online. And it's just not a radio play. But it's incredible. He's. It's a song where he says, you know, this ain't back in the day. Right? You know, people died for equal pay, right? You know, when I work, I ain't your slave, right? You know, this ain't back in the day, right? And it's like, it doesn't need to be. It's a great B side. Thanks for the question. This is a little bit of the B side where we hang out here in my TV newsroom, but a little more casual. I got ish from the Joe Budden podcast. Nice to see you.
- [17:31]
Joe Budden
Same to you, sir.
- [17:32]
Ari Melber
We just did some tv, but I thought we'd talk a little extra. Cause I don't get you in here that much. What was one of your favorite projects from last year and related. How important is it where people are listening to music? Because that's changed so much. And I feel like people of basically our age group. It's like in the car or does it get you outside and no shade? I think music is always moving with younger people. And a lot of younger people have a different lifestyle. I'm not saying they're only inside, but I am saying, like, yeah, sometimes it's on streaming, it's on a headphone.
- [18:05]
Joe Budden
That's it for me. Well, two questions. So for me, I think the Chance album was just an underrated project. He's going crazy on that project. To me, I like the Chance project. I love the Wild lady project, and I like the JID project. And I think. I think all three projects, they came and went unfairly almost. And unfortunately, because I think all three of those projects were amazing. Like the Chance Project. I'm shocked he didn't get more acclaim with that particular project. For me, the lyrical stuff, the more introspective stuff. I gotta be in the car. The stuff that, the lyrics, when you hear it out in the club, you're in a strip club, you're in a regular club and it's just going crazy. You could care less about the lyrical content of the song. So I think music serves purposes for us. And so I think the more lyric, the more rappers that I like, like, I want to hear them in my car. Cause I'm in a zone, I'm driving. It's just me in the road. I can ingest everything that they're saying. And I can get an appreciation for the music more than the stuff that's just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And you know what? It has a purpose.
- [19:23]
Ari Melber
Yeah. No, I feel that from you. And listen to the pot. I feel that from you. Do you remember the first album you had in your hand where you were like, this is my rap album. That you actually had the copy.
- [19:34]
Joe Budden
The first album I've purchased, I'm older. It might have been Long Live the King.
- [19:44]
Chef Mario Carbone
Wow.
- [19:44]
Joe Budden
Or okay, maybe three Feet High and Rising Della. Like, yeah, one of those I bought with my own money. And it was a thing. Yeah, it was a thing for me. One of those. Something back then.
- [20:00]
Ari Melber
Yeah. I mean, but that in the early de La soul, that is more backpack lyrical than some might have expected about you. No, I know there's a lot of scary. It's a bunch of us.
- [20:12]
Joe Budden
So listen, this is the funny part. Like, I'll call Mark and be like, yo, chance is going crazy. I'll call Mark and be like, yo, did you hear what Jay Electronica said on Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah? And people don't think I'll listen to that. Like I'm a nerd. So when Jay Electronica is going nuts, I'm all for it. Again, it's in my car.
- [20:30]
Ari Melber
I'll tell you my most. Since you bring it up. My most slept on Jay electronica song is Shiny Suit Theory with him. And hov Jay Z went crazy. And talking to his therapist.
- [20:42]
Joe Budden
Let me say, I love Jay Electronica. Yeah, he can't do an album with
- [20:47]
Ari Melber
Jay Z ever again because he's out. Because he got shown up.
- [20:51]
Joe Budden
He went crazy.
- [20:52]
Ari Melber
But that you don't see.
- [20:54]
Joe Budden
You don't think Jay Z went crazy.
- [20:56]
Ari Melber
I love that. Yes. And it's so funny how what you call something still matters. That was a joint album.
- [21:04]
Joe Budden
I know.
- [21:06]
Ari Melber
So everyone Jay Z this, Jay Z that. That was a joint album. The future Drake project was obviously a joint mixtape. Right. But they're not on every song together.
- [21:17]
Joe Budden
True.
- [21:18]
Ari Melber
They created something together. And the majority of the tracks they did together, that's that album. It's so funny. To me, people don't treat it like a joint album. And Jay to me, well, I, you know, talk about music. Music is feeling right. So, yes, I'm hov biased and I'm hov coded.
- [21:33]
Joe Budden
Me too.
- [21:34]
Ari Melber
And I wouldn't want it any other way, unfortunately.
- [21:37]
Ish (Joe Budden Podcast Member)
Me too.
- [21:37]
Ari Melber
But if I try to put that aside, I'm still pretty sure that substantively, HOV was the driving energy of that project.
- [21:52]
Joe Budden
I agree 1,000%. I agree. And yeah, you know me. There are a bunch of narratives, and they call me Jay Z Karaoke and Jay Z Stan and all of those things. I just. I appreciate greatness. And I don't even like all of Jay Z projects, by the way.
- [22:06]
Ari Melber
Can we talk? Let's talk about this. And then I'll just tell the people, like, this is real. We only got, like, three minutes. Then I gotta go back onto the news. It is so crazy for people to hate on loving something. That is amazing.
- [22:23]
Joe Budden
True.
- [22:23]
Ari Melber
So it's. If you're just like, imagine coming up to someone and being like. Like, imagine when ice cream first came out that dropped at some point. I like that. Yeah. And you're like, this is so good. And then all the kids are like, yes. And then they got ice cream trucks going out, and everyone's like, can we. Yeah, there's nothing to talk about. And then someone comes up and be like, oh, you're so into ice cream. Like, that's such a crazy take.
- [22:44]
Joe Budden
Misery and.
- [22:46]
Ari Melber
Right. It's like a culture. It's like some people are like that. Or they think something got so much acclaim. Yeah. Okay. You could pick Beyonce as an example related to Jay, but you could also pick Taylor Swift. And it's like, she's bringing joy to all these people. If you don't think she's the best songwriter, that's fine. But all these people love this music. And that's how I feel with hov. Hove is the greatest lyricist across genres in rap, to me, there's not a thing even to talk about. But across genres, you start saying, oh, but I'm also. This Coldplay song move me like a breakup.
- [23:16]
Chef Mario Carbone
Cool.
- [23:17]
Ari Melber
And this Dylan song is amazing.
- [23:18]
Chef Mario Carbone
Cool.
- [23:19]
Ari Melber
But I Love Bob Dylan. Bar for bar. Dylan is doing about 15 to 20% of just the number of bars of words so blowing in the Wind was a great idea. And it's like this short, right? And then I could show you. God did. And it's like this.
- [23:36]
Joe Budden
Fifteen albums of this. So I'm in agreement with you. I think people, just humans in general, somebody. You can have 100 people, right? And 97 of them will like a thing. The three other people that don't like the thing, they may not even dislike the thing. They just don't want to be on the side of the other 97 people.
- [23:59]
Ari Melber
Which is silly because now you're only defining yourself by being reactive.
- [24:03]
Joe Budden
I agree. And I think it's a misery thing. Me personally, I think.
- [24:07]
Ari Melber
Explain what that means.
- [24:08]
Joe Budden
You can't look at Beyonce. You don't have to be the biggest Beyonce fan. You can't look at what this young lady has done over this period of time, get on a stage, don't stop dancing, singing without auto tune and without lip syncing, and not say, wow, that's
- [24:24]
Ari Melber
great, by the way. To that point, you can't say that,
- [24:27]
Joe Budden
in my opinion, if you.
- [24:29]
Ari Melber
And the Beyonce. And when you watch, like anytime you see the footage of them setting up a show and the choreography and the practice and the. Just the sheer exemplary precision that she brings to everything she does. And in a very different way thematically. I was watching the Taylor documentary, and whether or not it's your cup of tea, it's like Olympic level athlete.
- [24:50]
OpportunityAtWork Advertiser
Yeah.
- [24:50]
Ari Melber
Choreography, practice, delivery, two hours.
- [24:54]
Joe Budden
And just night after night after night after night after night, you can't look at that level of excellence and say, huh?
- [25:02]
Ari Melber
So when you say misery. So I interviewed Lior Cohn, okay? And he said, young people, you know how he talks. Young people, they want to test. They are new. They want to test. He goes, so they like to try to bring down big things.
- [25:21]
Joe Budden
That's true.
- [25:21]
Ari Melber
And then he goes. He pauses and he goes, that's what we call a hater.
- [25:26]
Chef Mario Carbone
Misery.
- [25:26]
Ish (Joe Budden Podcast Member)
I start with misery.
- [25:28]
Ari Melber
And then he says, but if you. Because he's talking about building businesses. Like, if you build it and they can't tear it down, they'll move on to something else,
- [25:37]
Joe Budden
but they'll still throw rocks at it. And throwing rocks at it, to me is just. Because they can't necessarily break down somebody as talented as these people are, right? Like, these people will bounce back regardless of what they go through or whatever tribulations they go through, they'll bounce back. So you can't tear them down. But why throw rocks at some greatness? That's nuts to me. Again, I'm The Jay Z fan. I don't like 444. Everybody's mad at me. I don't like 444. But I'm not gonna say that this man isn't the greatest person to pick up a microphone.
- [26:10]
Ari Melber
Yeah, you're saying throw rocks. Did Jay electronica not say, mama told me, never throw a rock and hide your hand?
- [26:20]
Joe Budden
I don't know the next line.
- [26:23]
Chef Mario Carbone
You
- [26:26]
Ari Melber
don't know. I got family. You just got a lot of fans. Family over fans. You don't know the name. Well, you said you were Big J Electric.
- [26:32]
Joe Budden
I am, but I don't.
- [26:33]
Ari Melber
That's exhibit C. No, all of his lines in the streets. I'm well known like the Verizon man, by the way, coda. Because then I really gotta go. You know that line in the streets. I'm well known like the Verizon man. I was in Brooklyn. My Verizon guy came. He was a man. I threw the line at him. Whatever. He goes, I don't know what you
- [26:49]
Joe Budden
feel like you were crazy.
- [26:50]
Ari Melber
I said, you're the Verizon man in Brooklyn. And no one's ever said this. You're doing four houses a day or whatever.
- [26:56]
Joe Budden
Crazy.
- [26:56]
Ari Melber
Cause I literally, in my head, thought, this is gonna be old to him.
- [26:59]
Joe Budden
No, it's not.
- [27:00]
Ari Melber
Cause he's the Verizon Man.
- [27:02]
Joe Budden
I understand, but no, he's not. Jay ain't mainstream like that.
- [27:05]
Ari Melber
Ah, that's crazy. Right?
- [27:06]
Joe Budden
There you go.
- [27:07]
Ari Melber
We're out of time. This is the B side where we do a little extra ish. I'm glad you came through. That's what's up. Hey, it's Arian 50. Don't forget to subscribe.
- [27:17]
Joe Budden
Subscribe.
- [27:18]
Ari Melber
I wanted to show you before we let you out of here, we did have Joe Budden at the same table. Did you ever catch that interview?
- [27:25]
Joe Budden
I did.
- [27:26]
Ari Melber
I think we might have a little bit of what it looked like. Tell me about Joe, who we love. We want to have him back. And the fit.
- [27:39]
Joe Budden
The chinchilla indoors is a bit much for me. And it's warm in here, so I don't see how he did it. But the chinchilla with the top hat indoors, it looks nice, though.
- [27:49]
Ari Melber
It does look nice. Looks nice, you could say. Yes, sir. He's cut from a different cloth.
- [27:56]
Joe Budden
Yes. The texture is the best fur.
- [27:58]
Ari Melber
The texture is the best fur.
- [28:00]
Joe Budden
That is it.
- [28:01]
Ari Melber
It's a little warm, though.
- [28:03]
Ish (Joe Budden Podcast Member)
I love. It's rocking. Somewhere between, like, Lucius from Empire and Nino Brown. Like, I like that kind of style that he's got there. It's clean. It's clean.
- [28:11]
Ari Melber
I like it. We love it. I mean, he's welcome to come back, but first of all, if he ran it back in the same fur, right? They say, oh, don't repeat the outfit. We would love that. But we want to have him back either way. And that's what I want to ask you in Clos, as a fan of the pod, what do you think people take from it? Because my main observation is, how long have you been friends with the host of that pod?
- [28:34]
Joe Budden
Almost 20.
- [28:34]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And that comes through. So even when y' all are bickering, it comes through as real, rather than, oh, some reality show or what we see in politics, which could be, like, pro wrestling. How much of it for you is we really know each other, and how much of it has been the evolution of you mastering a medium? You're a businessman, and you can get into a room and figure it out. How do you look at it?
- [28:56]
Joe Budden
We argue like this off camera. We'll argue like this at a Monopoly game. Like, that's just the nature of our friendship. I think it's two alphas maybe fighting for a position. I don't know. But that's literally how we go about our everyday lives. And with regards to the pie, I think we just. I think the pod is so organic that what you see is what you get. Like, a conversation can come from the kitchen, literally on screen, that we're having as just four or five guys that are almost like brothers arguing in the kitchen. And it'll just present itself on screen, like, give it to the people. And so that's what you see. What you see is really what you get most time. 90% of it is what you see is what you get. No production, no script, none of that.
- [29:46]
Ish (Joe Budden Podcast Member)
It's just you can tell when it's the real thing. You can tell. You can tell when it's authentic. You can tell when it's the real thing. And I will say this, I'm somewhat biased. I was super happy when y' all added Mark, because for all of us, like, academic folks, we loved having him up in the piece, too. But, yes, like, you guys, you guys have, like, a real vibe and a real energy. You can tell. That's how it feels. That's how it feels as an audience. You're driving in your car, you're working out, you have the gym, and you're on the elliptical. It's like, all right, this sounds like a real conversation.
- [30:12]
Chef Mario Carbone
Yeah.
- [30:12]
Ari Melber
Although, since you brought it up, Mark knows a lot Genius. It also is good to keep in mind that everybody knows different things.
- [30:22]
Joe Budden
Sure.
- [30:23]
Ari Melber
Sometimes there's a way of referring to knowledge and it can come off like you're not understanding. Other people have knowledge. You picking up what I'm putting down?
- [30:30]
Chef Mario Carbone
I am.
- [30:33]
Joe Budden
I think you're walking me out to the plank.
- [30:35]
Ish (Joe Budden Podcast Member)
Yeah, Yeah. I was like, are we doing this?
- [30:39]
Joe Budden
What I think is this. What I think is this. I think that contingent upon the demo, I think we touch all of the bases, right. And so I think that we have to remember that it's entertainment. So if we get up and we talk politics or we talk serious topics all day, nobody wants to sit there and be depressed at their desk for three hours.
- [31:01]
Ari Melber
You're telling me, right?
- [31:02]
Joe Budden
Like you're.
- [31:04]
Ari Melber
No, but try being in a newsroom.
- [31:06]
Joe Budden
No, but when people tune into your show, they know what they're getting.
- [31:09]
Ish (Joe Budden Podcast Member)
Right.
- [31:10]
Joe Budden
Like you subscribe to that. So with us, somebody sitting at their 9 to 5 job that they typically hate, they want to be amused, they want to laugh, they want to fall out. And like, my girlfriend watches and she says her boss will come in and be like, what are you laughing at? Because she literally is laughing at them and the friendship.
- [31:27]
Ari Melber
They feel like they're with you.
- [31:28]
Joe Budden
And so I think that that's our main goal. I think everybody up there, like, we have real conversations off mic that are deep, deep, deep conversations. We just won't bring them to the. The recorder because again, nobody wants to hear that or our typical fan doesn't want to hear that. Our typical fan wants to be entertained. So I think that with the addition of Mark, we touch base on more serious stuff now because Mark is well informed on a whole bunch. Probably one of the most well informed people in the country on politics and some of these other issues that are, you know, in the media today especially. But I think overall, the Joel, stop the show. Be like, we're getting too serious. Let's pick it up. Let's pick it up. Light hearted. Light hearted.
- [32:13]
Ari Melber
Well, and as you said, you're thinking about the people that are in that, whether you call it an audience or you call it a community. Because with digital it can be so interactive and you're thinking about them, which we love. Ish your debut. I hope you come back. I hope you'll have me back. Respect.
- [32:27]
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- [32:36]
Ari Melber
First.
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