← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
BREAKING: Trump delays Iran deadline
00:42:00
President Trump posted on his social media site that he will suspend his threatened attacks on Iran for two weeks. MS NOW's Ari Melber reports on the latest developments.
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- [00:00]
Ari Melber
All right, ladies.
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- [00:25]
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- [00:46]
Ari Melber
Welcome to the beat, everyone. I'm Ari Melber. As we come on the air, we are two hours out from President Trump's asserted deadline to reach some kind of Iran deal or get back to status quo or an energy baseline that the US can live with as he's demanded they reopen the Strait of Hormuz. Now, that part you may have heard about, and that part might sound like normal times, but I just have to tell you, as we deal with this and report the facts in the news, there is nothing normal or potentially even lawful about the way the president is carrying this out. He has threatened apocalyptic measures. He has talked about actions that, if the US Were to take them, would clearly be war crimes against the civilian population. And these are assertions that made by any major power, let alone the United States, would expect to shock the conscience of the world. And even though people in the United States sometimes say, well, you can't give him too much attention, or you tune it out, or is he serious this time? Nobody really has that luxury in the Middle East. This is a war, life and death. The bombings continue. There have been great losses of life. And we have the president issuing threats saying a whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. In Trumpian fashion, this post says that he doesn't want that to happen. And then he says, but it probably will. This even by the serious standards of war, where people are killed, where countries take lethal actions against opponents, against their enemies, against the military structure, even by these standards, this is an ultimatum that has drawn condemnation at home and abroad. And really, you have to keep in mind reality and where the lines are. Even if Trump wishes they weren't our strongest allies shaken by not only this threat, but what looks like erratic behavior by President Trump, experts warn that such actions are war crimes and that even the ongoing threat against Civilian population violates laws of war. Secretary of State Rubio peppered with questions about this today.
- [03:11]
Congressman Jason Crow
All right, thank you.
- [03:20]
Ari Melber
As for how countries operate and prosecute war, I will just say before I show you the receipts so everyone understands what we're talking about. War crimes are not a matter of opinion in our day and age. But the world went through two world wars. And after the Second World War, after the horrors that came out of Europe and the great loss of life, there was a set of legal and international agreements made. And while we can all think of examples where they are violated, even in US History, when you talk about My Lai massacre and other such problems we have not had in the modern era. Any president since that time publicly say that they back war crimes or they want to send the US and our very significant military powers out to commit them. So keep that in mind. Here's what the Geneva Convention says. Acts or threats of violence, for the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited. Remember the years of talking about the US Fighting a war on terror? One of the main objections that was a true and valid criticism of groups like Al Qaeda and ISIS is that they did not follow the modern Western rules and laws of war, that they deliberately target civilians. We have a war manual which all military personnel are sworn to follow, regardless of who is president or what they post online. And it also limits following unlawful orders or violations flatly of the Geneva Convention. Democrats have been obviously condemning Trump's Iran approach.
- [04:58]
Democratic Commentator
He wants to erase a civilization and punish the entire population of Iran. He has not said, I'm going to hit their power plants because that is what enables their missile capability. He has, as some sort of like, homicidal psychopath, just talked about all that he wants to blow up and kill.
- [05:20]
Ari Melber
This is where we are. And the president was elected to a lawful second term. We are not even at the halfway point yet of that term for people who think we can just sit this all out or not have accountability or not decide as a country through our democracy whether we support or oppose this war or support the escalation of this war or a ground war or a war where the president asks our brave men and women in uniform to go out and commit war crimes. If he is serious about that which he has posted, we're going to have to deal with this. There is no looking away right now. There are lawmakers on the Hill, mostly Democrats, who say if ever there were a time to call the House back into session and deal with it is now. The president has set this Ultimatum tonight, they should vote to end what some call this reckless war of choice in the Middle East. This is a Democrat statement before Trump plunges the country into World War three. Now, you can always pick your hyperbole on either side. There are a lot of steps between this and an actual world war. And there are many off ramps, as we have seen with Donald Trump before. But those Democrats there are trying to wake people up to the seriousness of this and perhaps wake up their colleagues who have given this president a blank check. And the question after starting a war that has made the energy crisis we're living through has made the energy availability in the United States worse. Starting a war that is escalating now as we hear about operations inside Iran to of course rescue, but perhaps to escalate soldiers being brought into the region. Now the talk of these apocalyptical attacks question is, are we going to have the overdue delayed debate on whether a country signs on to this war? There are more cracks within the Republican Party. While some have clearly defended this and said, look, Trump is going to do what he's going to do or it's only an air war, Others say even now, not even just the Iran policy, which as I mentioned is already vaguely, you know, very unpopular, over 60% against it in US et cetera. But just on this issue tonight and these threats, it's too much for some Republicans.
- [07:28]
Pro-War Conservative Commentator
The president has to follow through with his threats. And also we need to finish it off.
- [07:33]
Anti-War Conservative Commentator
I don't support making a whole civilization die.
- [07:36]
Ari Melber
President Trump is trying to actually turn the temperature down.
- [07:39]
Anti-War Conservative Commentator
Yep. I am hoping and praying that President Trump is. This really is bluster. I do not want to see us start blowing up civilian infrastructure.
- [07:48]
Pro-War Conservative Commentator
I support what the president is doing. We just need to press forward because look, Iran is like a cancer and sometimes the cure to cancer hurts, but the cancer has to be eliminated and that cancer is Iran.
- [08:07]
Ari Melber
That's the best the defenders can do. Likening an entire population to a disease or a cancer, it's not internally consistent. If you have tracked the so called hawks, people on the conservative side of the Iran question, most of them have been saying that the people want something different than this extreme leadership. That's why we heard talk about regime change and hope for some sort of uprising, which now doesn't look very likely. But we cannot dismiss an entire public, even if their government has been of course arrayed against us and supported terror and all the bad things you've heard and we've reported about the Iranian government. We cannot dismiss an entire population as A cancer. We cannot dehumanize people. And as our president of this country stands on the world stage tonight and threatens to do exactly that, to wipe out the civilian population, to target them deliberately in what would be a Geneva Convention violation of war crime, we have to keep in mind what our values are as a country, especially during a war which has no clear plan or outcome. At this hour, I want to bring in Tom Nichols from the Atlantic, who's a professor emeritus of national security affairs at the U.S. naval War College, where he taught for 25 years. Your view, first, on the validity and the risk of the president's threats. Tonight,
- [09:27]
Tom Nichols
on whether he'll actually follow through. Who knows? I think the problem is that the president, like the rest of us, he's gotten used to being able to say anything he wants and not have it taken that seriously. And to have people defend him and kind of explain it away is just the way he talks. But the fact of the matter, he is the President of the United States. His statements are policy. Unless the president would like us not to believe him or not to treat him as if he's actually the president. But when presidents speak, their statements are policy. And at this moment, as we are now less than two hours away from the deadline, the policy of the government of the United States is that unless Donald Trump gets what he wants, he is not going to just commit war crimes. He is going to end Iranian civilization permanently. This is not just a threat to commit a war crime. It's a threat to commit genocide. And it implies potentially the use of nuclear weapons. Because I, you know, studied military history for a long time. I don't know any other way to end a civilization in one night. And so.
- [10:37]
Ari Melber
So can you speak? I'll jump in to say this is. I mentioned the Democrats mentioning World War iii. Sometimes the president is so extreme that then describing it or criticizing it perhaps, can sound like its own extreme. But. But you're a very thoughtful person, and you've, of course, worked in this area a long time. Can you explain to us the ballast, the substance of why you say that? Taken at his word, he is proposing a kind of Iranian genocide.
- [11:06]
Tom Nichols
He said, a civilization will die tonight. As I said in my piece in the Atlantic, you could launch every single munition. We have conventional munition, we have turn the streets of Iran firebomb them, as we did to the Germans and the Japanese. And it would not end Iranian civilization. It didn't end German civilization. It didn't end Japanese civilization. And at Japan, we added two nuclear bombs. To the firebombing. If you're talking about ending a civilization that it dies tonight, the president's words, not mine, then you really are contemplating something horrific that goes beyond just an ordinary bombing campaign. Again, unless the president just wanted to communicate his seriousness without the rest of the world or his enemies taking him seriously about what he plans to do. But when the President of the United States speaks, we have to take him seriously, Especially Ari, as you said at the top of your comments, when we're talking about war and peace, life and death, this isn't just Trump complaining about interest rates. This is Trump threatening to erase a civilization from the planet.
- [12:22]
Ari Melber
And we're not looking for predictions. But what's going to happen in the hours ahead in terms of, through the military planning process? And do you see a point, a potential point, at which there it may be incumbent upon people in the military to refuse what could be unlawful orders?
- [12:39]
Tom Nichols
I hope not. But if the president is coming to the military and saying, I want a plan to destroy everything in Iran and again, so that their civilization dies, that means, you know, water, food, you know, you know, you, you take your pick. Those are illegal orders. And I, I said in the piece I just put out, I hope that starting with General Kane and all the way down, every general officer and flag officer who gets those orders puts his or hers. Well, it'd be his because of this, because of Hegsets, Pentagon, they'll all be men. But that each of them puts his stars on the table and says, I'm not fulfilling that order. You're going to have to go to the next guy down. I resign. And that the next guy down says, I'm not fulfilling that order either.
- [13:30]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Tom Nichols, on the seriousness of this tonight, I appreciate you joining us and your expertise. Thank you. Coming up, we have Congressman Jason Crow, who's a retired paratrooper, a veteran. He has clashed with this administration on exactly the issue. I mentioned where the line is on law and military orders and joins us shortly. We also are following a MAGA backlash over not only Trump's erratic and bizarre behavior, but many leaders who have been on record against exactly this type of foreign escalation. The new acting attorney general also being pressed for continuing Donald Trump's enemies list, one of the things that Pam Bondi both pursued and failed. I also want to tell you that we have obviously a lot going on in the news kind of time that can get your heart going, but we will hopefully offer that in a different direction as we show you Artemis 2 heading home. The brand New images. This is just one of them. A stunning reflection on the habitat. We all share humanity on that orb by the end of the hour. And for the sweet fans out there, any dessert, junkies? We'll show you why Nutello is floating around. We're trying to cover it all tonight. I'll be back with you in 97 seconds.
- [14:42]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House. And I reported on it.
- [14:50]
Eugene Daniels
And now we're friends and colleagues. And on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.
- [14:58]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it, too.
- [15:04]
MSNBC Promo Announcer
Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.
- [15:14]
Ari Melber
Right now, the threats to our Constitution
- [15:17]
Congressman Jason Crow
aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home.
- [15:19]
Ari Melber
Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
- [15:23]
Eugene Daniels
You can refuse illegal orders.
- [15:25]
Ari Melber
You must refuse illegal orders.
- [15:28]
Eugene Daniels
No one has to carry out orders
- [15:29]
Ari Melber
that violate the law or our Constitution. Veterans in the Congress released that video. You might recall it. They are six veterans of military intelligence service to our country. And they were saying something that is in law school, what's called black letter law, meaning it's basic, uncontroversial. If you get an order from the president to do something flatly illegal, say murder a member of the American government, just to pick something completely without a doubt, you don't follow that order. Indeed, you're supposed to resist an unlawful order. That veteran Congressman Jason Crow, who you saw there as a Bronze Star recipient, served as an Army Ranger in Iraq and Afghanistan. And while that might just be the normal news introduction for those keeping track of everything, that video, which is obviously both largely accurate, as I mentioned, but also First Amendment protected speech, was the basis of a failed DOJ probe. Trying to indict him and others part of the enemies lists we track here. Congressman, welcome. I thought that was pretty relevant given tonight. I actually want to get your view of what's happening to DOJ at some point in this interview. But let's start with the president's threats in Iran, what you and your and your colleagues are doing about it tonight.
- [16:51]
Congressman Jason Crow
Well, the threats are patently illegal and violations of international law. They're war crimes. There's no other way to put it. As your prior guest, Tom Nichols, who knows this stuff. I mean, nobody knows this stuff better than Tom Nichols does. There's just no other interpretation of what Donald Trump said. And that's exactly why we filmed the video because we were afraid that this moment might come, that our service members would be put in a terrible position of having to decide what do they do. So we wanted to be very clear. Your obligation is to the law. It's to the Constitution, it's to the law of war. And if you follow the law and you obey the Constitution and your oath, then we will stand with you and we will stand beside you and we will have your back.
- [17:36]
Ari Melber
Vice President Vance also joining some of this escalating rhetoric turned heads when he was in a strongman country, by the way, Hungary. Take a listen. They've got to know we've got tools in our toolkit that we so far haven't decided to use. The president of the United States can decide to use them, and he will decide to use them if the Iranians don't change their course of conduct. That's how the vice president sounds. We're also tracking what by many accounts has been a strategic failure of a war. The military has performed with great efficacy, and many experts have told us on this broadcast and elsewhere admirably. But whether gas prices are up or down and whether the United States has more or less control of the Mideast energy supply would seem to be a major strategic failure so far. And here's what some folks, according to the New York Times, have been saying in Trump's orbit, that even going down this road was farcical, that Rubio has privately said it's BS advance who I just showed and why I bring this up now, warned or thought allegedly, that it was a bad idea. Your view of all of this? Because many Americans are watching this, wondering, how do we even get to this point? The president's threats tonight, gas prices booming in what seems to be an avoidable war of choice.
- [18:54]
Congressman Jason Crow
Well, the president's threats to destroy an entire civilization and to commit war crimes are so staggering and so atrocious, it's overshadowed the fact that you have the sitting vice President of the United States campaigning actively for a foreign autocrat in Europe. And it's overshadowed the fact that we're still spending 2 billion doll a day of taxpayer money on a war that Americans don't want, and they're spending $400 million a day in extra energy costs. And the terror threat is skyrocketing through the roof. The cyber threat against America is skyrocketing through the roof. This is an unmitigated disaster by any definition, and it's getting worse by the day.
- [19:36]
Ari Melber
You mentioned what folks can do within the military, how does that line work? I mean, are we at a risk of a constitutional crisis? Or if the orders involve something that is so clearly only wholly targeting civilians, either trying to kill them or cut off energy supplies? Basic way of life, which Trump has, of course, already posted about. Walk us through how you think that should work internally if it's an unlawful order.
- [20:05]
Congressman Jason Crow
Yeah, well, what we were talking about in the video and what remains true, and by the way, what service members are trained on, drilled on this, you learn the law of war, you learn target discrimination, you learn civilian versus military objectives. What is a valid military objective versus what is not. This is a part of service, this is a part of training. So you have to focus on what is a patently unlawful order. So that would be kill civilians, blow up a school, blow up a bridge, possibly blow up a power plant or a desalinization plant, things that are very obviously unlawful in a violation of the law of war. And again, Donald Trump saying he's going to wipe a civilization off the face of the planet is patently unlawful. So that is the focus, and that is where service members have to be in a position of deciding whether or not to execute a mission or not. I was in that position, by the way. I was a combat leader. I did three combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I had to, on many occasions make a call as the leader of a unit whether or not to strike a target or whether or not to refrain because what are my legal and moral obligations? So that's the position that these service members are put in, you know, under the best of circumstances. That can be very difficult. Donald Trump has made this the worst of circumstances.
- [21:27]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Finally, as promised, I want to turn to your face, which is often on this program, Congressman, on the enemy's list. People can take that for what they will. But you are one of many. It's over 20 probes they've opened up your chart charges there didn't get anywhere. That's green on the left. But I put it in this context because I don't even think your case, which we touched on, had enough legal validity to really get into the details. It was quite clearly an illegal selective prosecution. It couldn't clear even the low bar, the ham sandwich bar people hear about in the grand jury. But I wanted to get your reaction tonight more broadly to all the other folks on this list, some of whom are awaiting actual federal criminal trials. Pam Bondi's out partly because she has zero wins on this. Probably a good thing for the rule of law, but was a bad thing for her, what do you say to her? To Todd Blanche, who appears to be pursuing a similar program? What will the Congress do? And if they. If they break laws within the DOJ of selective prosecution, will they ever be held accountable?
- [22:34]
Congressman Jason Crow
Well, first off, if you're on the right side of this leadership requires willingness to throw yourself into the fire and to pick fight this. There's just no other way to actually lead in the moment than to be very clear, to have moral clarity, and to be willing to punch back when necessary. Right. And yeah, they tried to indict me, but listen, Americans have been murdered. People have been holding the line in Minneapolis. Great personal risk to themselves. People are being imprisoned. Our service members are potentially being asked to do unlawful things. There are acts of courage all around this country. People saying that millions of acts of courage are what's going to get us out of this. Right. Courage is contagious. That has been my frame. And when people stand up to the right thing, it will spread.
- [23:23]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And I could imagine a lot of people being inspired by that. The journalist in me is saying, and what about AG Acting AG Blanche, what about this process? What are you guys going to do?
- [23:36]
Congressman Jason Crow
Well, accountability will come sooner or later. You can't hide from that. We are taking names. I'm creating my own lists of people that need to have oversight and accountability. It is so important right now that people understand that if you're in this administration and you're asked to violate the law or violate your oath or turn your back on the Constitution, that you will be judged one way or another at some point or another. You cannot escape it forever. You can't hide behind a mask. You can't hide behind your desk. You can't hide behind your title. We will seek accountability because that is not just our right, it's actually our duty. It's our duty to make sure that we are enforcing the law and we are upholding the guardrails of our democracy. And I will not shrink from that duty.
- [24:24]
Ari Melber
There is clearly a lot on the table right now for the country, for the world tonight. And I think you've reminded folks about your values, which obviously you also showed in service. We thank you for your service and important to hear your voice tonight. Thank you, Congressman.
- [24:40]
Congressman Jason Crow
Thanks, Ari.
- [24:42]
Ari Melber
Appreciate it. Coming up, we will look deeper at the doj. I have Emily Bazelon here. And next, Molly Jong Fast on a MAGA revolt that really is spreading. How do you stop a war that people already oppose? Well, as with so many things in democracy and politics, there is a spectrum and There is volume. And Trump already has an unpopular war on his hands with a gas price problem, which is part of why he is almost desperately seeking a quick off ramp, perhaps thinking that his threats will work. We've discussed how they are unlawful either way, but now we're seeing more cracks on the right. Tucker Carlson, who literally campaigned for Donald Trump last cycle, was at the convention giving the speech now condemning this and something we've also seen criticism of, which is that Donald Trump always has his own style, yada yada. But the profane, vulgar and increasingly erratic behavior, some of which landed on Easter Sunday,
- [25:49]
Liberal Commentator/Critic of Trump
killing non combatants, people who did nothing wrong, who didn't choose this war, who were just people created by God, that is immoral, that will never be moral, that can never be justified, that is always wrong. How dare you speak that way on Easter morning to the country. Who do you think you are? You are not God. And only if you think you are do you talk this way. To send out a tweet with the F word on Easter morning promising the murder of civilians and then saying praise be to Allah without explaining any of it. That is evil.
- [26:21]
Ari Melber
Now you can look at this a number of ways. How dare you? Who do you think you are? Tucker asks, as if he has not seen Donald Trump's entire political career. Or one could argue public life when it comes to vulgarity or poor timing or a thirst for a type of dominance and violence that has no bearing in ethics or justice. If those are your issues with Trump, they are not new. And yet on the other side, I promise to the other side, politics is addition. And if the anti war movement combined with what we saw, a very powerful no Kings movement is going to build an ad. It may welcome people, at least on a momentary or effective basis, like Tucker Carlson, because they at least agree on the fact that Donald Trump lied about this war and brought us into it and we need to get out of it. That's what they might say it again. Speaking of strange bedfellows, I've mentioned in our coverage that Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist who cannot be relied upon for anything factual. But in politics, where everybody's sounding off, he is now a longtime MAGA right wing figure who sounds like a resistance warrior bringing up, and you might remember this from the first term, talk of removing Trump early through the 25th Amendment.
- [27:41]
Anti-War Conservative Commentator
How do we 25th Amendment is asked, tackle Trump and pretend, Let him pretend he's president and publicly report that he's going through a health issue advance takeover. It literally needs to be something like that. It's that bad. The I've known you in a long time. You've never called for a internal coup before, ever, ever, ever. But that's how dangerous this is. That's how risky it is for the whole. Yeah, that was the.
- [28:07]
Ari Melber
If you are a conservative, a MAGA fan or a right winger who gets a lot of information online, you are definitely hearing about some of this. If you believe in the Overton window, the larger sort of way that ideas are filtered and presented, this is becoming mainstream on the right. The idea that the war is bad, that Donald Trump lied and that maybe he is past his sell by date. MAGA voters also upset. There's news that a popular MAGA store temporarily closed after the owner says they couldn't sell. It started with the war. It was dead as a doornail, they relayed. There's also the wider rift with young men who say they're lied to. Former staffers being quoted as saying MAGA is effectively dead going into these midterms. And people feeling betrayed. I'm joined now by Molly Zhang, fast contributing opinion writer with the New York Times, host of the Fast Politics podcast. And in the only light note we may get tonight, Molly, I will say, and a guest who we found to be much more credible than Alex Jones. Welcome.
- [29:08]
Molly Jong Fast
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [29:12]
Ari Melber
Thanks for being here. Serious times. I've had some serious guests. We've mentioned the horror of it. While everyone is hoping for an off ramp that makes all of this look like, oh gosh, we had to deal with what were war crime threats from a sitting president. But maybe we don't go there. Maybe that doesn't happen tomorrow. But either way, on the politics for you, it would seem that people are not afraid on the right of saying that this is a bad war and they want out.
- [29:38]
Emily Bazelon
Yeah.
- [29:38]
Molly Jong Fast
It is very interesting to see Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson on the same side as Nancy Pelosi. Right. That is something I probably thought I would never see. Here's what I would say about this. If you look back to 2016, Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson and remember at that time Tucker Carlson Carlson was mainstream maga. Right. And Alex Jones was sort of fringe maga. They were very in very different places. Cuz Tucker Carlson was on Fox News. But at that point you had these two people were really instrumental in Trump getting the nomination. Right. Because they were the people. They were the ad. Right. They were the. It was a huge field and they were the people who were able to add to the base.
- [30:22]
Ari Melber
Fast forward.
- [30:23]
Molly Jong Fast
Right. They are the purest Distillation of maga, those two. And they represent huge group of people, right? They talk to. And they may be representing them, they may be reflecting them. Either way, this is trouble for Trump. And I think it comes back to the idea that Trump ran on this America first platform. What was right and the history of America First. Well, it's wrapped up in antisemitism and a lot of anti, you know, a lot of other anti stuff and racism and whatever. It is also wrapped up in anti intervention. And so when the minute Donald Trump put together this war, he really started losing those people. And then the explosive rhetoric, and we're
- [31:08]
Ari Melber
five weeks into it, and the numbers show Trump is very unpopular. That may sound obvious to everyone, but some of the narratives that were cooked in 24, I mean, he did have a comeback. That was a long time ago. That was before the year of this, of this governance and the high prices and now the war. And so he's really unpopular in a way that he and his aides might not realize. I mean, people like Rogan and Tucker are reading the room of the Internet where the comments and the numbers come in fast and they may try to get by, but if they have to choose between Trump and themselves, if Tucker has to choose between Trump and Tucker, we know where he lands. And he has been so public, his brand has been so tied to fighting this kind of war. And he opposed the Iran war in the first term. Whatever you think of Tucker, I will note that that was public at the time. So he's now saying, well, I'm not gonna try to pretend to my entire audience the opposite. And so look at. I'm going to play a little more of Tucker and Jones where he's right, this is new. Tucker admits, yeah, hey, I campaigned for him. You know, he's trying to kind of level with his folks, but say, this war is bad, we've got to stop it. Evil was one of the words he used. Take a look.
- [32:22]
Congressman Jason Crow
I voted for Trump.
- [32:24]
Liberal Commentator/Critic of Trump
Oh, well, yeah, I campaigned for Trump.
- [32:26]
Ari Melber
It was a lot.
- [32:28]
Congressman Jason Crow
When I look back on it, I
- [32:29]
Ari Melber
was sold a straight lie.
- [32:31]
Anti-War Conservative Commentator
You think, we are not in Kansas anymore. We are all in grave danger. This is total red alert.
- [32:38]
Ari Melber
I'm confused. I can't believe we went to this war. When we started bombing Iran, I was like, this can't be true.
- [32:44]
Anti-War Conservative Commentator
95% of Trump supporters I know are completely against us.
- [32:50]
Ari Melber
My question for you now is, what does the anti war movement and the no Kings pro democracy movement do with this? Because it's very tempting for some to look and go, really, you're shocked that Donald Trump lied to you about something. What have you been living through and watching and yet emotionally that might get you through the moment. But I don't know that it helps the anti war movement if there are ways to use politics to have a better outcome than what the President is threatening.
- [33:21]
Molly Jong Fast
Yeah. And I'd like to go back to what you said before, because they are reflecting a real thing they are seeing. And if you want to go deeper on this phenomenon, look at Ben Shapiro's YouTube channel, because he has got a staunchly pro war message and he is just bleeding supporters. So you have to remember these people have their finger on the pulse. And what I think is the most surprising thing about this moment is that you're not seeing Republican electeds put this together. Like, these people are the canary in the coal mine. They are showing you what your base wants and your base doesn't want this. And so the question is, I don't necessarily think it's for the Democrats to accept these people. These people are Republicans. They are the MAGA base and they will ultimately, they are gonna break with Trump. I don't think they're gonna become, you know, Democratic voters, but it doesn't matter. Right. Because Republicans just need to lose. And this is a losing message for them.
- [34:25]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And if it depresses the midterms, that's what everyone's looking at. Molly, thank you. We're gonna to a quick break. And Emily Bazelon on the new Pam Bondi on the other side.
- [34:38]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House and I
- [34:45]
Eugene Daniels
reported on it, and now we're friends and colleagues. And on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.
- [34:54]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it, too.
- [35:01]
MSNBC Promo Announcer
Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.
- [35:13]
Ari Melber
We have breaking news coming into the newsroom. We are just over an hour out from President Trump's threatened deadline for Iran, and he has just posted what he says, an announcement that will delay that by two weeks and that he says will lead to a ceasefire. Let me read you what the President has said because it's been a matter of great foreign policy intrigue. In a lengthy new post, he says that he's had conversations with Pakistan as an intermediary and that he agrees to, quote, suspend the bombing and attack of Iran for a period of Two weeks. He calls it a quote, double sided ceasefire. The President goes on to write that he has already met and exceeded military objectives and received a 10 point proposal from Iran that has been independently reported. Some discussion of that. And he says now that he believes it's a workable basis on which to negotiate. He says that there's basically a kind of agreement between the US And Iran that he claims is already in motion, but a quote, two week period will allow the agreement to be finalized. This is a major development on the United States side. You can look at this as the President changing what had been a major foreign policy threat. He had been criticized for basically threatening to target civilians and commit what would be under the Geneva Convention, war crimes. That's been controversial no matter what this new post. And it is the style of President Trump's diplomacy that doesn't come from the State Department or even in an address to the public or reporters, but often in his social posts. But this post asserts, and we'll be reporting out what Iran says, that they have something that can give them an offering. Two weeks without fighting. If it were to hold as a ceasefire would be a major de escalation and development in this war. This would be a foreign policy and market moving event. But as with other claims the President has made, we will have to follow what actually happens and what the other parties say. Again, all of this is subject to what the President and the United States have been seeking with global energy supply leave reaching crisis territory, that this would include the opening of the Strait of Hormuz. So this is a major development we're following from the President. We will see what Iran says. But a possible off ramp away from not only those threats but for potentially two weeks without fighting between these countries. We have a lot more tonight. We'll be right back. Breaking news tonight. President Trump has formally announced, writing online that he is delaying what had been the very controversial threatened attack on Iran and its civilian infrastructure infrastructure, delaying it for at least two weeks. He's posted online that subject to Iran agreeing to the opening of the Strait of Hormuz. He agrees to suspend the bombing and attack of Iran for a period of two weeks. The President calling that a double sided ceasefire. If this holds, it would be the first major de escalation between both parties since the war began. That's a big update. And as mentioned, we are following with our reporters in the region what Iran and other parties say that news breaking just moments ago I mentioned to you we also have reporting on Trump's doj, including the first appearance of Trump's new acting Attorney general, Todd Blanche, replacing Pam Bondi for now, and discussing what has been criticism of their enemies list.
- [38:36]
Todd Blanche
It is true that some of them involve men, women, and entities that the president in the past has had issues with and that believe should be investigated. That is his right and indeed it is his duty to do that. People say the president wants to go after his political enemies. No, the president has said time and time again that he want justice to operate every day on doing everything that I need to do to execute the president's agenda and priorities.
- [39:05]
Ari Melber
Blanche may be auditioning for the promotion of getting that job full time, but he is still a member of the bar, a member of the Justice Department who has sworn to uphold the Constitution. And that's a bad sign for his credibility as he sort of sane washes or whitewashes or pick your terminology. What has been a proven vendetta by Donald Trump that's been repeatedly rebuffed and rejected in the courts precisely because it's unlawful. The DOJ Civil Rights Division is reportedly now going after yet another individual who's crossed Donald Trump. You may remember the Jan6 witness, Cassie Hutchison. She, of course, worked for his chief of staff, was a loyal Trump aide until she provided what she said was truthful testimony in that investigation. Now she stands across the same kind of enemies list pursuits. We're joined by the New York Times Magazine's Emily Bazelon. Thanks for being here.
- [39:56]
Emily Bazelon
Thanks for having me.
- [39:58]
Ari Melber
Real talk. We have a lot going on and we still got this news and you in. So I'm happy about that only because it's important. And I thought that Todd Blanche sounded much more like a partisan White House spokesperson than an independent DOJ official in the way he described the enemy's list. Your view?
- [40:19]
Emily Bazelon
Well, right. I mean, he is saying that justice consists of going after who Trump decides to target. And I think what he left out is, you know, what is the evidence against these targets. Right. I mean, we've seen in all of these cases, or many of them, that there is very thin evidence that grand juries have rejected, evidence that courts have said no to these kinds of charges. And so that is the word justice is kind of separated from what it actually takes to achieve justice, which is you start with the evidence, not the people who you've decided to criminally charge in advance.
- [40:58]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And he's stepping in for Pam Bondi, who had a really rocky and ineffective tenure. She lost a lot of those cases mentioned. She also struggled to oversee the division that tries to win at the Supreme Court. Now he gets the same hand she had if he stays in his job. But I wanted to show because so much is going on, that this was really an abominable and ineffective tenure and a short one of an ag. Take a look.
- [41:26]
Pam Bondi
We are so proud to work. At the directive of Donald Trump, two
- [41:31]
Congressman Jason Crow
failed attempts to indict New York Attorney General Letitia James.
- [41:34]
Pam Bondi
Weaponization has ended, at least for now.
- [41:37]
Congressman Jason Crow
Both cases will be dismissed.
- [41:38]
Ari Melber
Federal charges have been dropped against Mayor Ras Baraka.
- [41:41]
Pro-War Conservative Commentator
The DOJ may be releasing the list
- [41:43]
Ari Melber
of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen?
- [41:46]
Pam Bondi
It's sitting on my desk right now. Our memo on Epstein clearly points out that there was no client list. You don't tell me.
- [41:54]
Ari Melber
Oh, I did tell you because we saw what you did in the Senate.
- [41:57]
Pam Bondi
Lawyer. Not even a lawyer.
- [42:01]
Ari Melber
Emily, do you think the fact that she was bad at her job is part of why she lost her job?
- [42:08]
Emily Bazelon
I mean, from the reporting, it seems like Trump is frustrated that these criminal prosecutions he wanted to see go forward have failed. Hard to see how Todd Blanche escapes some of the blame for that. I mean, no one ran more defense on the Epstein files than he did. And, you know, anyone inside this Justice Department right now, like you said, has the same bad hand, but also presumably has already disappointed the President.
- [42:36]
Ari Melber
Right. So you, you say, okay, how much of it is how she did and how much of it was not doable, if you will, still didn't mean she had to yell and scream and kind of make a mockery or the congressional hearings. But, but to your point, there's structure underneath that. Emily, we have a lot going, so thanks for being here. We're near the end of our hour. We'll be right back.
- [43:06]
The Pope
And let's remember especially the innocent children, the elderly, the sick, so many people who have already become or will become victims of this continued warfare, attacks on civilian infrastructure is against international law. But that it is also a sign of the hatred, the division, the destruction that the human being is capable of.
- [43:34]
Ari Melber
The Pope speaking out today amid Donald Trump's threats to Iran tonight, within this hour, he delayed that threatened attack by two weeks, saying he believes they have a two sided ceasefire that does it for the beat.
- [43:46]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House. And I reported on it.
- [43:55]
Eugene Daniels
And now we're friends and colleagues and on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.
- [44:03]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it, too.
- [44:09]
MSNBC Promo Announcer
Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.