Brown University, Sydney Australia shootings put spotlight on gun violence, antisemitism

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: "Brown University, Sydney Australia shootings put spotlight on gun violence, antisemitism"

Podcast: The Beat with Ari Melber
Host: Ari Melber, MS NOW
Date: December 16, 2025

Overview

This episode of "The Beat with Ari Melber" tackles two harrowing mass shootings: the attack at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island, and the anti-Semitic rampage during a Hanukkah celebration in Sydney, Australia. The show examines the recurring tragedy of gun violence, the surge in antisemitism, and the roles of law enforcement, government accountability, and public activism. The second half addresses the political turbulence facing the Republican Party, the Epstein files controversy, and closes with a heartfelt tribute to the late Rob and Michelle Reiner.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brown University Mass Shooting: Facts and Reactions

[01:00–06:00]

• Incident Overview:
  – On Saturday, a shooter entered Brown University during a final exam review in an economics classroom, opening fire and killing two students: Ella Cook (19, Alabama) and Mohammad Aziz Umarzakov (18, Virginia).
  – Nine others were injured, one critically ([01:00]).

• Law Enforcement Response:
  – Providence Police released new images and footage of the suspect, requesting any public tips.
  – FBI Director Patel has announced a $50,000 reward for information leading to the suspect's arrest.

• Criticisms:
  – Law enforcement faced backlash for prematurely detaining and releasing a person of interest, spurred by FBI Director Patel’s erratic updates on social media—which repeated mistakes seen after the Charlie Kirk killing ([03:21]).

• Rob d’Amico Analysis: – Emphasizes the value of enhanced video for tracking suspects via cell phone analytics, and how investigators use cell tower data to narrow possible identities ([04:59]):

  "They shooter was there when the shooting took place...they’re going to compare and see what cell phones in fact were there at the same time...that is big. That’s really big." – Rob d’Amico [04:59]

---

2. Gun Violence, Student Trauma, and Prevention

[06:00–11:11]

• Student Voices:
  – Brown students, themselves prior survivors of school shootings, emphasize government inaction:

  "Every act of gun violence is 100% preventable. And we know why this happened...It’s because of decades of government inaction. There’s no reason that two families should be planning funerals instead of Christmas parties right now." – Student [06:27]

• Rob d’Amico on Prevention:
  – A layered, imperfect approach is needed; initiatives such as violence prevention hotlines matter, alongside securing schools and community awareness ([07:22]). – Personal anecdotes of helplessness, even as a law enforcement parent, underscore the crisis.

• Best Practices for Public Safety: – D’Amico encourages situational awareness and planning exit strategies for students—especially relevant for events/holidays with elevated risk ([09:40]):

  "Knowing where you’re going before something happens is really important, so you don’t have to think about it—you already thought about it before it happened." – Rob d’Amico [09:40]

---

3. Sydney, Australia Hanukkah Massacre & Antisemitism

[11:11–13:54]

• Incident Overview:
  – A Hanukkah celebration at Bondi Beach is targeted; 16 people were killed, including a 10-year-old girl, Holocaust survivor, two rabbis.
  – One of the two suspects fatally shot by police; the attack labeled as an anti-Semitic terror act ([11:11]).

• Community Response:
  – Margaret Carlson encapsulates national solidarity:

  "The Jewish community are hurting today. Today all Australians wrap our arms around them and say we stand with you. We will do whatever is necessary to stamp out antisemitism." – Margaret Carlson [12:44]

• Notable Heroism: – Footage circulates of a bystander risking their own life to intervene, exemplifying real-life heroism ([13:24]).

• Global Context:
  – Ari Melber notes a four-year consecutive rise in anti-Semitic incidents in the US, reaching a record high in 2024 ([13:54]).

---

4. Political Fallout: Trump, Republican Troubles, and the Epstein Files

[16:09–31:57]

• Trump’s Waning Influence:
  – Discussion on how Trump’s supposed invincibility is cracking—poll numbers down, “MAGA” base less engaged, and midterms projected as a disaster for Republicans ([16:09]).

• Republican Anxiety & Messaging:
  – Mark Leibovich observes realistic, if grim, Republican expectations:

  "The polls are kind of ugly for Republicans right now...this is probably a case of maybe just speaking the truth inconveniently..." – Mark Leibovich [23:28]

  – Margaret Carlson highlights “affordability hoax” as a campaign issue hurting the GOP, and how opposition is consolidating around prices and the Epstein scandal.

• The Epstein Files and DOJ Deadline:
  – The deadline for the public release of the DOJ’s Epstein files looms, seen as a pivotal, damaging moment for Trump-run Republicans.
  – Melber portrays it as a transparency test with major implications ([34:12]).

• Bob Woodward & Investigative Journalism:
  – Praises dogged reporting on J.P. Morgan’s role in the Epstein scandal:

  "It’s a masterpiece. I’ve read it twice...what did they know and when did they know it and what did they do?" – Bob Woodward, as paraphrased by Margaret Carlson [36:01]

  – Carlson and Melber compare the power of facts and deep reporting versus conspiracy-laden discourse ([36:44–38:10]).

---

5. Rob and Michelle Reiner: Tributes and Legacy

[40:19–49:38]

• Tragic Loss:
  – Ari Melber reports the shocking killing of director Rob Reiner and wife Michelle, with their son in custody. Tributes from President Obama, Jamie Lee Curtis, Christopher Guest, Stephen King, Kathy Bates, and others highlight Reiner’s kindness, brilliance, and civic spirit ([40:19], [45:02]).

• Celebrating Work:
  – Melber and guests revisit Reiner’s career, spanning acting (“All in the Family”) and directing classics like “This Is Spinal Tap,” “Stand By Me,” “The Princess Bride,” “A Few Good Men,” “When Harry Met Sally.”

  "Reiner had a talent that spanned all kinds of genres because he could do comedy, he could do horror, he could do fantasy, obviously drama. And he was politically active and civic minded." – Ari Melber [42:11]

• Moved by Love: – Reiner credits meeting Michelle for inspiring the happy ending in “When Harry Met Sally”:

  "I met my wife Michelle, who I’ve been married to now 35 years. I met her while we were making the film and I changed the ending." – Rob Reiner [44:53]

• Standing Up for Democracy: – A 2023 Reiner quote on the program underscores his legacy of civic engagement:

  "You have to make a choice. Do we want fascism or do we want to continue the 248 years of self rule?" – Rob Reiner [43:42, 48:18]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Gun Violence:

  "Every act of gun violence is 100% preventable. And we know why this happened...decades of government inaction." – Student survivor [06:27]

• On Institutional Accountability:

  "You just have to keep trying everything you can because not one thing’s gonna work better than the other. But it is scary." – Rob d’Amico [07:44]

• On Republican Troubles:

  "The polls are kind of ugly for Republicans right now... maybe just speaking the truth inconveniently." – Mark Leibovich [23:28]

• On Investigative Journalism:

  "It’s a masterpiece. I’ve read it twice...what did they know and when did they know it and what did they do?" – Margaret Carlson paraphrasing Bob Woodward [36:01]

• On Rob Reiner’s Impact:

  "He once said that meeting [Michelle] prompted him to change the ending to the hit When Harry Met Sally so they could live happily ever after." – Ari Melber [44:17]

• On Democracy:

  "Do we want fascism or do we want to continue the 248 years of self rule?" – Rob Reiner [43:42, 48:18]

---

Segment Timestamps

• Brown University Shooting Coverage – [01:00–06:00]
• Student Survivors, Gun Violence, Prevention – [06:00–11:11]
• Sydney Mass Shooting & Antisemitism – [11:11–13:54]
• Trump, Republicans, and the Epstein Files – [16:09–31:57]
• Bob Woodward on Epstein/Journalism – [36:01–39:17]
• Rob and Michelle Reiner Tribute – [40:19–49:38]

---

Tone and Language

The tone is urgent but empathetic, blending journalistic seriousness with moments of reflection and emotional tribute, especially in light of tragedy. Melber and his guests maintain a level-headed, evidence-driven approach throughout.

---

Summary Conclusion

This episode weaves together the heartbreak of mass shootings, the persistent threat of antisemitism, and the political upheavals of the day, providing grounded analysis and calls for public action. It culminates in a poignant memorial for Rob and Michelle Reiner, honoring their contributions to culture and democracy. Whether through news, politics, or the stories we tell, "The Beat" insists on the importance of facts, vigilance, and hope.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

Save over $200 when you book weekly stays with VRBO this winter. If you need to work, why not work from a chalet? If you haven't seen your college besties since, well college. You need a week to fully catch up in a snowy cabin. And if you have to stay in a remote place with your in laws, you should save over $200 a week. That's the least we can do. So you might as well start digging out the long johns because saving over $200 on a week long snowcation rental is in the cards book [e-mail] not.

[Udemy Advertiser]

Sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news these days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand Skills. Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS Certified Cloud Practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.

[Ari Melber]

Welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melber. We begin with an update on this escalating manhunt that's in Providence, Rhode Island. After the terrible shooting at Brown University over the weekend Saturday, leaving two dead and several students injured, officials have now released new images and video of the person of interest in this case. We got this material from the briefing which you may have seen on the news that was finishing just moments ago. They've also announced a reward. We are renewing our call for the public's assistance in seeking any and all information about the shooter. No amount of information is too small or irrelevant. We are also here to announce the FBI is now offering a reward of $50,000 for information that can lead to the identification, the arrest and the conviction of the individual responsible, who we believe to be armed and dangerous. Officials releasing this new footage of the person of interest that they are now eyeing. You can see dark clothing, a hat, what looks like a mask. This is the first look of the individual we've seen from this view. They did release another video over the weekend of the person that they also thought was the same person exiting the scene of the crime, helping hoping that someone could recognize them. Saturday at 4pm the shooter entered an economics classroom. This was a final exam review, so a weekend setting where students were gathered and they opened fire with the rifle killing two students, 19 year old Ella Cook from Alabama and 18 year old Mohammad Aziz Umarzakov from Virginia. Local hospital treating nine other students with gunshot injuries as of this afternoon, one in critical condition. Cell phone footage obtained by WABC shows the scene of the students sheltering in place in a room at Brown. Police.

[Mark Leibovich]

Police.

[Ari Melber]

Providence police. That's funny. Obviously, there's something going on. We're here to help you. Just listen to what we have to say. Okay? All right.

[Mark Leibovich]

Breathe.

[Ari Melber]

Anybody hurt? No. All right. Just listen to it. You can see the difficult scene there, the live action police work, the students, young, scared. And while this was a college and mentioning, as I mentioned, some of the students as young as 19among the victims, this is a harrowing scene we've seen play out in schools, high school, middle school, colleges around the country. Law enforcement also facing some criticism for detaining and releasing the person of interest on Sunday in a manner that seemed to add to confusion, if not outright misinformation. And that is because of essentially the social media habits of Trump's FBI director, not the line agents. Indeed, if you're counting, it's now the second time that FBI Director Patel seemed to rush to post things online. That's against usual investigative practice before they had all the facts at their disposal. He touted the arrest and then backtracked. If you recall, this also occurred after the horrific killing of Charlie Kirk in September. Officials are continuing the search for leads. They want any local video footage, no matter how short, any leads, no matter how small. They have not named any other potential suspects, persons of interest or a motive. We're joined now by Rob d', Amico, former FBI tactical operations specialist, as well as a hostage rescue team operator. These are always just terrible stories to experience for the community, for people watching it, and unfortunately, too, too familiar in the education setting. Your view of what we know now and what authorities are focused on after that briefing?

[Rob d'Amico]

Well, they're focused on now. They have video that I think is better quality, at least some of it is. But I think one of the most important things is it was from the day before. So what that tells me on looking at some of the things that happened, especially with the cell phone analytical stuff, is they shooter was there when the shooting took place, and they're going to look at all the towers. And then the day before when that video was taken, they knew his location was there, and they're going to compare and see what cell phones in fact were there at the same time. Now you're going to have to take out all the residents that are around there, how far that cell tower looks. But that's what those, those cellular analytical Teams that, you know, Director Patela talked about, that's what they do. And that is big. That's really big. Cause you can start narrowing down the device to potentially the subject. Plus, the picture is somewhat. It's not great, but it's better than what they had before, and they may get better ones along the way.

[Ari Melber]

One of the terrible things here with this type of gun violence, we have it in this country. We had a terrible attack that authorities are describing as this anti Semitic attack in Australia. And I have a separate report on that coming up. But in the US Context, it's too familiar. And there are these students at Brown who were very quickly discussing how this was not their first school shooting. Take a listen.

[Commercial Announcer]

Until our congresspeople actually decide to do something and care about children, care about their constituents, care about people in this country, this will continue to happen. And there will be more people like me who have survived several school shootings. Every act of gun violence is 100% preventable. And we know why this happened. We know why it happened at Saugus, we know why it happened at Brown, and we know why it happened everywhere else. It's because of decades of government inaction. There's no reason that two families should be planning funerals instead of Christmas parties right now.

[Ari Melber]

Those are two students who marked past living through past school shootings at the earlier level of their education and now live through this one at Brown. How do you view this? Obviously, the authorities do their jobs. They don't write the laws. But obviously, I think we're doing something wrong. There's something we could do better to protect our students. Our youngest more.

[Rob d'Amico]

I'm a father of four. Matter of fact, I was doing the school shooting in UNC Chapel Hill, and I had two of my kids were students there, and now they're back in grad school. So they're back in school. I understand it. And I remember coming out of an FBI briefing once and there was a threat at one of their middle schools when they were younger. And I felt so helpless to.

[Margaret Carlson]

Has.

[Rob d'Amico]

To be like a layer in defense where not one solution's gonna work out. You know, badging buildings and doing all these other things and trying to prevent guns getting in. I'm also now on a board of a national violence prevention hotline that's trying to stand up full time. So when people are thinking, doing violent things, they can call someone and get a counselor. Or if you know someone, if you see them sliding down that. That, you know, that path that you see in the yellow flags, you can Call and get help. And I think all of that has to go into it. I. Getting all the guns off the street, I think is a long term thing. You know, it's America and there's, there's something about it, but you still have to keep trying everything you can because not one thing's gonna work better than the other. You just have to hope some of them work. But it is scary. Like looking at the students sitting there, I just thought of my kids in their classes. I remember one was talking about being hours in the library writing these papers for their grad studies and thought if they were in there and there was a shooting and I'm sitting here not being able to do anything. It's just horrible.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And we track this. But the grim math is that as it becomes more common, it takes a worse shooting, quote unquote. Every loss of life tragic to become what they call national news or something people hear about. I want to use this night to remind folks that in the year so far, obviously we're near the end of it. You have 392 mass shootings in the United States. It averages out to more than one a day. What else do you tell people about what they can do? You said the understandable feeling of being helpless. What are best practices for what people can do if they are in these places that increase, the number of targets has increased. So if they're in a place that's considered a target to some degree, it's.

[Rob d'Amico]

One of those things that when I would go in my kids school when they were young, when I would figure out the best way out, and a lot of times if they're on the first floor, I would find something in that room that stayed there and I'd say, use this to break the window, get out and put something over the glass and just go out the window. Do not go in the hallway or I would find a better way. And I taught all my kids situational awareness. When you go to something a friend of mine, a Jewish friend of mine was telling me about they were going to a Hanukkah event and I said, look, situational awareness, the shoes you wear, the exit. Knowing where you're going before something happens is really important. So you don't have to think about it. You already thought about it before it happened. And unfortunately as a police officer, I do that. I go into a restaurant, I sit with my back to the wall, I see the door, I see the cash register. It's just habit for me how I do it. But nowadays students as young as middle school are having to do the same thing. Having to really look at this training helps and thinking about what you're going to do beforehand. And it just, it is what it is and it's unfortunate, but that's what I'm telling the ones I love and the friends of mine that they have to do when they go to a big event. Same thing with all these terrorist events. Look where you're going to go. If a car drives up on the sidewalk, look where you're going to go. Because ISIS loves to tell people to use vehicles because it's easier than getting guns in countries and you can actually sometimes do more damage. So I'm always aware of that and I'm pushing that out to friends and loved ones.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, understood. Rob d', Amico, thank you very much for your work and for walking us through that tough topic. I want to mention what I said earlier. There was another terrible attack over the weekend. This was abroad and we wanted to report on the latest. A mass shooting in Bondi beach in Sydney, Australia on Sunday, leaving 16 dead including one of the suspects. This was at a Hanukkah celebration, the Jewish holiday. A 10 year old girl and a Holocaust survivor and two rabbis were among those slain. Over 40 people hospitalized after this incident. 27 are in the hospital. According to Australia's local news reports. Police indicating the two suspects were a father and son. This is being viewed as an anti Semitic attack targeting the Hanukkah celebration. You can see here what appears to be one of the gunmen firing. Bystanders fled. The shooting actually went on for about 20 minutes. The elder gunman killed by police, the younger hospitalized. Locals there holding vigils. This is that country's deadliest shooting in over 25 years. Officials recounting it and the motive as an anti Semitic terror attack. This attack was designed to target Sydney's Jewish community on the first day of Hanukkah. What should have been a night of peace and joy celebrated in that community with families and supporters has been shattered.

[Margaret Carlson]

The Jewish community are hurting today. Today all Australians wrap our arms around them and say we stand with you. We will do whatever is necessary to stamp out antisemitism.

[Ari Melber]

Authorities there discussing that wider context. There's also really remarkable footage which has been shared a lot online where someone captured the moment of by video where a bystander, a courageous good Samaritan, risked their own life while others were being slain to intervene and try to save lives. Take a look.

[Commercial Announcer]

Oh.

[Ari Melber]

You can hear the stunned onlookers as they captured that real life moment, actual heroism, someone stepping up in a way that, as you can see from the footage, they didn't have to. They literally risked their own life and likely saved others. The wider context is a rise in anti Semitic violence which includes here in the United States. According to the ADL which tracks this, anti Semitic incidents have been on the rise for four years in a row and they reached their highest level since the ADL's been recording it here in 2024. You can see the huge increase in the bar chart on your screen. Two different terrible incidents around the world, each involving gun violence. That is our grim top story tonight. Now we have a lot more in the program, including the politics of Donald Trump's lame duck problem. This is the week that leads up to the now famed Epstein deadline for the Trump doj. And we're going to keep in mind what Bob Woodward said about this case and following the receipts, the evidence and of course following the money. And tonight we also remember Rob and Michelle Reiner. I have a report on their deaths later in the hour. We'll be back.

[Udemy Advertiser]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news these days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help help you get those in demand. Skills. Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS Certified Cloud Practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.

[Tyler Redicure]

Tyler Redicure from 2311 Racing. You think racing's tough? Try getting your friends to agree on dinner plans.

[Rob d'Amico]

I'm in.

[Tyler Redicure]

Wait maybe what time again? While they figure that out, I rev up Chumba Casino play on your browser. No downloads necessary. No need to negotiate. Why wait on them when you can spin for yourself? Play [e-mail] let's chumba no purchase necessary.

[Ari Melber]

VGW Group Voidware prohibited by law. CTNC's 21+ sponsored by Jumba Casino Find new customers on a platform that's here to stay with TikTok for business, anything is possible. If you've ever thought about advertising your business on TikTok, now is the time to do it. You can drive more customers to your website, sell products right in the app, and you can even use TikTok's creative tools to easily make content and find creators to help sell your products for you. Find new customers today just Open your browser, type in getstarted.TikTok.com tiktokads and grow your business fast. Foreign. When things start changing in politics, they can change fast. We started the year hearing all about Donald Trump's comeback and how he had a mandate and Elon Musk could do what he wants and the courts wouldn't stop him, and for a minute there it looked like that. But a lot has changed. The breaking point is always hard to find in real time. Historians have the job of combing through all the stuff we live through day by day and finding it. But if there is one, it may be the Epstein vote that showed the emperor has no clothes. Republicans weren't scared of Trump and after they rejected him and his bid to hide Epstein last month, the files and everything else, they didn't pay a price. If anything, they are finding that disagreement with Trump in public may help them distance themselves from his sagging poll numbers. And now there are cracks in the Wall going into 26. Trump reportedly losing ground not just among independents and moderates, but among his MAGA base. He has an 8 point drop in the strong approval rating for MAGA Republicans. You may say, okay, he's still got support there, but they're not necessarily strongly standing by everything. The Post reports that rank and file Republicans in Washington feel the heat on health care and just unpopular positions Trump has forced them to take on slashing the safety net and health care funding and Obamacare subsidies. One House Republican office gets 300 calls a day just on the health care issue. Politico reporting that in deep red Montana there's a revolt against the impact of all of those cuts from Musk and folks saying I didn't vote for this. MAGA leaders also warning that the base is checking out, which is a problem for someone like Trump who does best when he has his 40, 42, 38% checked in. A pollster who works with Republicans told Trump there's a disconnect between the Trump administration and what it's focused on and what the passionate base of supporters actually want to see. In this story, he recounts telling Trump, you said fight, fight, fight. Nobody ever clarified what that means and fight. Now you're fight, fight, fighting MTG and not actually fight, fight, fighting for Americans. And that of course is just the base. Broadly, Trump is at a second term low. The price problem, the inflation, the Epstein scandal, California governor saying National Guard troops are now out of LA because of another Trump loss. It took a while, but a judge ordered them out. And while Trump was testing his power and may have gotten away with some flexing for some time. It also, like the Epstein case, has revealed the limits of his ability to put the military folks you see here in American streets indefinitely. And if that was a plan to mess with the public or the midterms or a future election, well, Trump is finding that losing in court is reminding everyone, including those troops, there are limits set by people other than the commander in chief. It is a grim picture for Republicans going into the midterms and conservatives know it. Hard stops in American politics typically create massive political blowback. And 2026 looks like it's going to be pretty ugly for Republicans anyways. The political blowback is going to lead to Democrats in power in 2028.

[Commercial Announcer]

You can't gaslight people and tell them that their bills are affordable and you can't tell them that the economy is an A. You just can't do that. And I think it's insulting to people's intelligence.

[Ari Melber]

Now, will it be enough to save the Republicans in the midterms? Probably not. But that's okay. This is a long term deal. You're going to lose the House, you may keep the Senate. I'll take that. A lot of folks are talking in terms of messaging and pr, and that's a language Donald Trump understands. He just told the Journal, we'll see what happens. We should win. But you know, statistically it's very tough to win. And he's right. The wins are going against them on these midterms. But why is he already spinning a loss he hasn't even faced? And if he looks like he's got cracks with the Republicans now, just imagine if they blame him and what are very unpopular policies for losing the midterms. And then he's got two years left, a lame duck as the party looks beyond him. I've got two great guests to get into exactly this political moment when we come back. It's not a secret, there's no sugarcoating it. It's a pending looming disaster heading our way. We're facing almost certain defeat. This is a absolute disaster. You know, no matter what party's in power, they normally get crushed in the midterms. The chances are the Republicans will go down and will go down hard. Republicans party chair says they could go down hard. We are joined by Mark Leibovich from the Atlantic, Ms. Now contributor and semaphore's Margaret Carlson. Mark, they're talking a lot about losing.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, they seem to be. Look, I mean, it could be just expectations setting, it could be just realistic. I Mean, look, I mean, the polls are kind of ugly for Republicans right now. Historic trends in off year elections absolutely favor the party out of power and Democrats have been locked out of power since a year ago, since Trump came back. So, yeah, I mean, I think they're just being realistic. I mean, this is probably a case of maybe just speaking the truth inconveniently, but I also don't think any voters are gonna be swayed either way, whether for or against, by a bunch of Republicans sort of trying to be realistic about what the electoral landscape is, which I think we've all been seeing pretty clearly for the last few months.

[Ari Melber]

Margaret?

[Commercial Announcer]

Well, they seem Trump and the Fox commentator that you had in your intro, Ari, seemed to be like, que c' est ra, c' est roi. Well, it's gonna happen, but so what? But you know, the people who don't feel that way are in the House and the Senate and if they start feeling that it does matter, that could be the crack in the Trump MAGA hold. Right. Right then and there. And they're not going to vote in the numbers they did the last time for the presidential in part because that, that other clip from Montana or the Politico piece in which she said, I didn't vote for this. I think that's going to come into an ad in which Democrats put up to voters, you didn't vote for this. And that's becoming the affordability hoax. I don't think that landed well. Trump loves his hoaxes because that's always worked for him. But an affordability hoax, I don't think people like at all.

[Ari Melber]

And do you see this mark as a tipping point issue? I mean, you think about these things for a living. You wrote a whole book talking to all the Republicans and others in Washington. Did Epstein really happen to be the thing that revealed it or do you see a lot of factors?

[Mark Leibovich]

I think it definitely broke the momentum and I think Trump had quite a bit of uninterrupted momentum starting from his inauguration, at least within his own party. Right. I mean, there was a lot of shock and awe, you know, frankly disgust from the opposition, both at Trump and also kind of at the lameness of the Democratic opposition, such as it was in those first two months. I think what Epstein did is it actually did sort of organize both an opposition to Trump, which extended to the Republican Party. And I think it sort of got him off his footing. And I think from there there were a lot of sort of economic things that hurt him, a lot of other things that hurt him around foreign Policy, immigration, and some of the enforcement stuff that I think has sort of been. Been an avalanche sort of since then. But I think if you look, you know, historians will look to Epstein as sort of the thing that broke the momentum.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And, Margaret, it's, it's striking because people who oppose Trump feel they have all the reasons in the world. I mean, they, you know, they don't struggle to make a list. When you talk to the opposition to liberals and to the never Trumpers in the Republican Party who were Republican and then go against him. And yet when you talk to MAGA or Cusp maga, the actual list of things that concerns them about Trump is smaller. And so I wonder if you think the beginning of the year was set with liberals and the Democrats sometimes talking about all the stuff they didn't like, and they ended the year focused on prices and Epstein, which are two crossover issues that the Republicans also are concerned about or don't like about Trump.

[Commercial Announcer]

Well, there may be fewer things than the opposition than Democrats think, but those few things are fairly intense. Affordability is really intense. Wait until the increase in healthcare comes in January. That will be really intense. And Trump just isn't as affable. I mean, he used to be a little bit funny, and he has, you know, I hate to admit this, but he has a way which, you know, he says everything three times. He laughs at himself, he makes jokes. He's kind of pleasant in that way, but he hasn't been pleasant at all in the last month or so, and he was so unpleasant today that this idea of him being the comforter in chief ever would have happened. When Rob Reiner dies and he has. There's two mass shootings and there's just this sorrow hanging down over all of us. And then he comes out and in a tirade. I don't think anybody likes that. I don't think the MAGA base likes that at all.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And Mark, that speaks to the. The strangeness of this era, because the pandemic changed everything. Nobody even wants to talk about it, but the pandemic sort of blunted the beginning of, of the Trump MAGA effort, and we all know that. And then he went away and almost looked down for the count. With all these cases on top of, no former president had ever been charged, let alone thrice. And the comeback, not unlike the experience in 16, seemed to shock so many people that he got more out of the shock than out of the win. The win was narrow, but the shock was huge. To some, at least to the people who lost and, and then you, you end up a year after that win and he doesn't have any support. And then you have the Republicans, I'm going to read report on the polling Republicans who consider themselves more about the party than maga. You can think of those as the country club or whatever you want to call them who've been a little bit back heel and those share who strongly approve of Trump stands at 35 instead of 38. You drop down to 30, 25. And then you got the price problem with the, with the general public and before you know it, Mark, and you don't have a coalition anymore. You have kind of a lame duck, embers of a fire that's not as bright.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I mean it's kind of a two pronged problem in some ways. I mean, to some degree. I mean he's losing support around from Republicans and that's an issue. I mean he still has a lot of support among maga. The base is still largely intact, but he's tanking with independence. And the other part of the problem, the other prong here, is that even in the best of times, Republicans don't turn out to vote when Trump isn't on the ballot. I mean that has traditionally been kind of the existential issue around Trump and the Republican Party even over the last eight years or so and will continue to be going forward because Trump will not be on the ballot anymore. So I would just say generally that morale seems very, very low among Republican voters and again, I mean disgust seems very high among Democratic voters. But one thing you can't sort of take away from them is that they want to win really, really, really badly. And I think their turnout numbers in some of these special elections and off year elections would sort of underscore that. And I think that is what a, a lot of these Republicans speaking publicly are really afraid of. And I think to Margaret's point earlier, I think the Republicans in office will actually show how they feel about all this either by actually distancing themselves from Trump at a certain point or more likely actually just dropping out of the race and just announcing retirements, which is the real indicator of where Republican morale could be at a time like this.

[Ari Melber]

Right. Because they're voting with their actual careers and then you're losing people who have the experience, the money, the connections. It's complicated to hold the House coalition. It's a lot of actual, real people in places. And Mark, do you have a view on the Friday deadline for these Epstein files? They could comply and take their medicine or they can try to break the law. But that's going to drag the story well into next year then.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I mean, the story has dragged out plenty as it is. I mean, at some point you're going to probably have to rip the band aid off. And my guess is if they do release it, it will be as late as possible on Friday when you can sort of do maximum damage in the minimum. It's a minimum spotlight, which is what they've done for a lot of stories. But look, I think their one strategy here has been to draw this out. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if it went beyond Friday.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, Mark and Margaret, thanks to both of you on a couple of topics there. We have a word from Bob Woodward tonight on how you follow the money in a case like Epstein. And by the end of the hour we will remember a Hollywood creative icon, someone we also got to know here on this program, the tragic killing of Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle Reiner later tonight.

[Udemy Advertiser]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news these days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand skills. Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us. Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS Certified Cloud Practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.

[Ari Melber]

Thanks to TikTok ads, I was able to open up a business with my childhood friend and even hire employees. My name is Julian and I am one of the founders of the Snacks Lab. We are an exotic snack company. We import snacks from all over the world. We had over $100,000 in sales from our TikTok ads in the first month. So our orders went from five a day to over 250 orders a day. You definitely have to use TikTok ads. TikTok for business is helping owners like you reach new customers every day.

[Tyler Redicure]

Head over to getstarted.TikTok.com tiktokapps Tyler Redick here from 2311 Racing. You think racing's tough? Try getting your friends to agree on dinner plans.

[Rob d'Amico]

I'm in.

[Tyler Redicure]

Wait maybe what time again? While they figure that out, I rev up Chumba Casino play on your browser. No downloads necessary. No need to negotiate. Why wait on them when you can spin for yourself? Play [e-mail] let's Chumba.

[Ari Melber]

No purchase necessary. VGW Group voidware prohibited by law. CTNC's 21 plus sponsored by Jumba Casino. Look, the fact is these photos are a fake news Democrat hoax. Okay, well, even the picture of a.

[Tyler Redicure]

Bowl of condoms with your face on.

[Ari Melber]

Them and the text saying I'm huge, they're 100% legit. I love those files. I'm in the files. I took a lot of great pictures.

[Mark Leibovich]

Okay?

[Ari Melber]

I like that bowl. Okay, I think that's enough questions. The Epstein files live there in a satire format, of course, on snl. But it's a reminder that the jokes land, the references work. Because this is a story that's bigger than the daily News or covering the doj. And House Democrats have used the evidence at their disposal to keep it that way. They released select photos from the Epstein estate, including Donald Trump, Bill Clinton and Bill Gates. Photos that remind the public the DOJ has even more than whatever Congress has gotten from the Epstein estate. And this week, it all comes to a head. With the Friday deadline, DOJ must release the Epstein files in a public, searchable format. They're not handing them off to Congress or some government entity. They are supposed to show them to you, the general public, by Friday night. Meet the deadline or break the law. It's a key part of the story, as well as whether the files shed more light on Epstein's financial web and the banks that helped him up to the end and only started complying with other rules about suspicious reports after his death. Iconic journalist Bob Woodward has some thoughts about this. And following the money. Deep investigative work, interviews, documents, some material that had been under steel to show that this big bank, JP Morgan, really did look the other way while these crimes were occurring and had some of its bankers allegedly involved in some of the very business Epstein was up to, which is a conflict, if not worse. I wonder what you think we should do with this kind of reporting in a time where.

[Margaret Carlson]

Well, we should appraise it. It's a masterpiece. I've read it twice. I think of that kind of in depth reporting and it takes a new angle. J.P. morgan, what did they know and when did they know it and what did they do? I salute the New York Times because that clearly took a great deal of effort and investigative chops and experience and probably editors, or I'm sure, editors. What about this? What about that? Go back to so and so.

[Ari Melber]

And how is that different from the world we're in where everyone has an opinion or a conspiracy theory about Epstein versus that kind of dogged reporting?

[Margaret Carlson]

Well, we need more dogged reporting. And, you know, old theme, and I'll repeat, there's nothing like a firsthand witness. Somebody you as a reporter can sit with and say, what happened? When was it? Do you have any notes? Are there any documents? What do you think this means? The last question is always, who else knows about this? What's their phone number? How can I get in touch with them? Have you spoken with them? And again, the variable in all of this is time. As somebody who's worked for the post for over 50 years and done what, 23 books, I have the luxury of time. No one says you have to turn it in now, even a book. If I say I need new time, more time, the publisher, Jonathan Carpet, my publisher, Simon and Schuster. Yes. I mean, take it. But then you're putting yourself out and say, you know, it's going to be, be worth waiting for.

[Ari Melber]

You mentioned that you had the president on tape, and that was agreed to and that was part of the dispute. I want to pull from some of that, as we've done before, because it's this evidence of how he was thinking then in the White House in the first term, some things he was thwarted. Now he's back and we've seen what the second term feels like. Here he was saying when asked about achievements, what he wanted to do to people in government, Take a listen.

[Rob Reiner]

I will consider this one of my.

[Margaret Carlson]

Greatest achievements, getting the scum out of government. And it's scum.

[Rob Reiner]

It's the lowest form of human garbage.

[Ari Melber]

These people, and I don't mean FBI.

[Rob Reiner]

People, I mean top people in the FBI.

[Ari Melber]

What do you hear there? And is that part of his agenda today?

[Margaret Carlson]

Well, I mean, it's retribution. It's vengeance now. And people who've investigated him or people who have crossed him, he will say things like that and make judgments, but that's his style and he thinks it's worked for him.

[Ari Melber]

And is it worse, by which I mean, is it testing or crossing legal and governing lines more in the second term than the first, when he did seem held back by some.

[Margaret Carlson]

Well, people say that and there's some evidence of that. I don't know if you can make a full comparison. But you know, I mean, in the Epstein case, we say, you know, it came up in the, what, the couple of months ago, and now all of a sudden there is this avalanche of new evidence, including drawings and allegedly trump signature and a kind of, it's the old boys club meeting and talking about girls and it's the undertow and the surface. Some of it's pretty racy and sexist.

[Ari Melber]

Thoughts from Bob Woodward that resonate right now as we watch that Friday Deadline. Next we turn to Rob and Michelle Reiner. Turning now to mourning the loss of a cultural icon, director, actor, producer. Rob Reiner was found dead with his wife Michelle on Sunday, a tragic killing. We can report their son is currently in police custody. Authorities have not released much more information other than that. At this point right now, we want to honor the family and Rob Reiner's career. The tributes pouring in with former President Obama saying that beneath all the stories he produced was a deep belief in the goodness of people. Others who work with the Reiners and got to know them over time. Jamie Lee Curtis and Christopher Guest saying we've lost great friends. A collaborator, Stephen King wrote, rest in peace, Rob, you always stood by me, referencing Stand By Me, which Reiner adapted from his work. Kathy Bates calling Rob brilliant and kind. Reiner first got his start as a widely known actor, starring in the classic show all in the Family and then expanding to other roles in his own movies, including a lot of different genres like the comedy. This is Spinal Tap, if you can see. Yeah, the numbers all go to 11. If we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do? Put it up to 11. 11, exactly. What are you doing? What? What about the other foot? There ain't no sock on us.

[Margaret Carlson]

I'll get to it.

[Ari Melber]

Don't you know that the whole world puts on a sock and a sock and a shoe and a shoe. Reiner adapted from that young, really successful experience as an actor to expand out and to become one of the great celebrated directors of his time, telling enduring stories in film.

[Commercial Announcer]

I'm never gonna get out of this town now. My gory. You can do anything you want, man.

[Ari Melber]

Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

[Commercial Announcer]

I'm your number one fan.

[Ari Melber]

You want answers? I think I'm entitled. You want answers? I want the truth. You can't handle the truth. The first time we met, we hated each other.

[Commercial Announcer]

No, you didn't hate me. I hated you. The second time we met, you didn't even remember me.

[Ari Melber]

I did, too. I remembered you. The third time we met, we became friends. Reiner had a talent that spanned all kinds of genres because he could do comedy, he could do horror, he could do fantasy, obviously drama. And he was politically active and civic minded. Like many news shows and other political formats, we heard from him repeatedly and called upon him here on the beat. Here's something he told us in 2023 about standing up and fighting for American ideals. You've got to make a choice.

[Rob Reiner]

You have to make a choice. Do we want fascism or do we want to continue the 248 years of self rule? To me what matters is how does it come out in the policy are we protecting? Wonderful experiment of 248 years.

[Ari Melber]

Rob and Michelle were married for 36 years. He once said that meeting her prompted him to change the ending to the hit When Harry Met Sally so they could live happily ever after.

[Rob Reiner]

The original ending of the film that we had was that Harry and Sally didn't get together because I'd been married for 10 years. I'd been single for 10 years and I couldn't figure out how I was ever going to be with anybody. And that gave birth to When Harry Met Sally. And I hadn't met anybody. And so it was going to be the two of them seeing each other after years talking and then walking away from each other. I met my wife Michelle, who I've been married to now 35 years. I met her while we were making the film and I changed the ending.

[Ari Melber]

So we owe that tear jerking ending.

[Margaret Carlson]

And I say that in the highest form of phrase to Michelle.

[Rob Reiner]

That's right.

[Ari Melber]

Tonight we remember Rob and Michelle Reiner. Turning now to mourning the loss of a cultural icon. Director, actor, producer. Rob Reiner was found dead with his wife Michelle on Sunday, a tragic killing. We can report their son is currently in police custody. Authorities have not released much more information other than that. At this point right now, we want to honor the family and Rob Reiner's career. The tributes pouring in with former President Obama saying that beneath all the stories he produced was a deep belief in the goodness of people. Others who work with the Reiners and got to know them over time. Jamie Lee Curtis and Christopher Guest saying we've lost great friends. A collaborator, Stephen King wrote rest in peace, Rob, you always stood by me, referencing Stand By Me, which Reiner adapted from his work. Kathy Bates calling Rob brilliant and kind. Reiner first got his start as a widely known actor starring in the classic show all in the Family and then expanding to other roles in his own movies, including a lot of different genres like the comedy. This is Spinal Tap. If you can see the numbers all go to 11. If we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do? Put it up to 11. Exactly. What are you doing fast? What about the other foot? There ain't no sock on it. I'll get to it. Don't you know that the whole world Puts on a sock and a sock.

[Margaret Carlson]

And a shoe and a Jesus.

[Ari Melber]

Reiner adapted from that young, really successful experience as an actor to expand out and to become one of the great celebrated directors of his time, telling enduring stories in film.

[Commercial Announcer]

I'm never gonna get out of this town now, my gori. You can do anything you want, man.

[Ari Melber]

Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

[Commercial Announcer]

I'm your number one fan.

[Ari Melber]

You want answers? I think I'm entitled. You want answers? I want the truth. You can't handle the truth. The first time we met, we hated each other.

[Commercial Announcer]

No, you didn't hate me. I hated you. The second time we met, you didn't even remember me.

[Ari Melber]

I did too. I remembered you. The third time we met, we became friends. Reiner had a talent that spanned all kinds of genres because he could do comedy, he could do horror, he could do fantasy, obviously drama. Drama. And he was politically active and civic minded. Like many news shows and other political formats, we heard from him repeatedly and called upon him here on the beat. Here's something he told us in 2023 about standing up and fighting for American ideals. You got to make a choice.

[Rob Reiner]

You have to make a choice. Do we want fascism or do we want to continue the 248 years of self rule? To me what matters is how does it come out in the policy? Are we protecting this wonderful experiment of 248 years?

[Ari Melber]

Rob and Michelle were married for 36 years. He once said that meeting her prompted him to change the ending to the hit When Harry Met Sally so they could live happily ever after.

[Rob Reiner]

The original ending of the film that we had was that Harry and Sally didn't get together because I had been. I'd been married for 10 years, I'd been single for 10 years and I couldn't figure out how I was ever going to be with anybody. And that gave birth to When Harry Met Sally. And I hadn't met anybody. And so it was going to be the two of them seeing each other. After years talking and then walking away from each other, I met my wife Michelle, who I've been married to now 35 years. I met her while we were making the film and I changed the ending.

[Margaret Carlson]

So we owe that tear jerking ending, and I say that in the highest form of phrase, to Michelle.

[Rob Reiner]

That's right.

[Ari Melber]

Tonight we remember Rob and Michelle Reiner. We want to share some of what we have learned from people in our summit series. People at the top of their fields. Take a look.

[Margaret Carlson]

Being judgmental to me just means I have standards.

[Ari Melber]

Well, let's just go through it. They scream a brace for impact. This is a real Dr. Jane Goodall Barbie.

[Udemy Advertiser]

A Barbie doll that encourages little girls to think that I can do that.

[Rob d'Amico]

They scream Wilson.

[Rob Reiner]

At me.

[Margaret Carlson]

You never get the whole story. In the first year, I had the.

[Ari Melber]

Brashness of youth to pursue ideas that seemed crazy at the time.

[Rob d'Amico]

They do scream run. Forest.

[Ari Melber]

Run. Turned out that those beliefs really worked out very well.

[Commercial Announcer]

Being on a stage is where I feel most, most alive and at home.

[Ari Melber]

It's action that leads to hope. I knew I'd made it when.

[Margaret Carlson]

When we got the drugs that changed the.

[Ari Melber]

Lives of persons with hiv.

[Margaret Carlson]

You have to try harder next time.

[Ari Melber]

Success means winning. Reaching the summit means peace and fulfillment.

[Margaret Carlson]

I feel like I'm in the foothills.

[Ari Melber]

You have done something positive with the power that the Summit has given you that I haven't got there yet.

[Udemy Advertiser]

I hope.

[Ari Melber]

Those are leaders across culture, business, science, politics. You can go to Ms. Now Summit to hear from them. Little wisdom and uplift that we could all use.

[Udemy Advertiser]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news. These days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand. Skills. Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us. Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS certified Cloud Practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.