Congress Grills Top Epstein Lawyer

Summary

The Beat with Ari Melber — Podcast Summary
Episode: Congress Grills Top Epstein Lawyer
Date: March 19, 2026
Host: Ari Melber, MS NOW

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on mounting U.S.-Iran tensions—particularly the economic, political, and military fallout of Trump’s recent actions—as well as congressional scrutiny of top figures involved in the Jeffrey Epstein case. Ari Melber dives into the “spin” of political messaging among Trump administration officials, the blunt economic impacts of energy market disruptions, and ongoing legal battles, including the targeting of perceived Trump enemies via the DOJ and new revelations into Epstein's enablers.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Escalating Tensions and Economic Fallout of Trump’s Iran Policy

• Energy Crisis and Market Chaos ([01:00–06:36]):

  • Melber opens with reports of intensifying military action between Iran and Israel, including attacks on major oil and gas infrastructure.
  • U.S. administration officials signal a possible reversal on longstanding sanctions against Iranian oil to stabilize supplies and gas prices.
  • Treasury official explains the so-called “break the glass plan”—removing sanctions temporarily to add oil supply and buffer global prices ([01:49]).
  • Gas prices are sharply rising; economists fear lasting effects even if the conflict de-escalates.
  • The Pentagon is contemplating new troop deployments to the Middle East.

• Mixed Messaging and Intelligence on Threats ([03:11–04:31]):

  • Trump, through proxies like Tulsi Gabbard, delivers contradictory public comments on whether “boots on the ground” are imminent.
  • Congressional questioning of intelligence officials reveals no evidence of an imminent Iranian nuclear threat. Gabbard dodges direct answers.

• Expert Roundtable: Economic and Security Perspectives ([04:31–13:21]):

  • Jared Bernstein (Council of Economic Advisors):
    • Warns that destruction of infrastructure makes post-conflict recovery slow and expensive.
    • Trump’s policies, including tariffs pre-war, already worsened affordability; the war compounds these issues.
    • Quote: “The retail price of gas is up about 90 cents a gallon in just a few weeks. Diesel’s up 142. And this doesn’t just affect people filling their tanks—this affects the food market. This affects groceries.” ([05:14])
  • Larry Pfeiffer (Nat. Security Expert):
    • Expresses deep concern about the lack of coherent interagency process.
    • Points to internal administration “infighting” and “gutted expertise.”
    • Asserts that intelligence did not support an imminent Iranian attack: “As they say, a broken clock can be correct twice a day. I think this is an instance where he’s speaking truth to power. There does not appear to have been any change in intelligence since a year ago...” ([08:29])
  • “Rockets and feathers” economics: Gas prices spike quickly but fall slowly, with the average American’s tax refund likely wiped out by higher energy costs.

• Presidential Priorities and “Unsquareable” Contradictions ([12:18]):

  • Bernstein criticizes Trump’s economic messaging as empty populism, saying his actions directly undercut his promises.
  • Quote: “I think that he is a phony quote populist. I think his message to he tells the people what he wants them to hear and then he goes out and acts in ways that are antithetical to that.” ([12:50])

2. DOJ Abuse and Renewed Targeting of Trump’s Political Enemies

• Subpoena of Former FBI Director James Comey ([16:51–21:20]):
  • Melber explains the DOJ (under Pam Bondi) is again targeting Comey, resurrecting discredited allegations connected to Trump’s Russia probe.
  • Patterns indicate abusive, pretextual use of subpoenas against Trump’s perceived enemies, often struck down by judges, but with new “judge shopping” to find friendlier venues (Judge Aileen Cannon in Florida).
  • Barbara McQuade (Former U.S. Attorney):
    • Describes the serious erosion of the DOJ’s “presumption of regularity,” warning this harms public trust and the real work of prosecutors.
    • Quote: “I know sometimes this Justice Department is accused of being Donald Trump’s personal law firm, but it’s more than that. Law firms do zealously advocate on behalf of their client, but they usually do so within the parameters of the law and ethics.” ([17:34])
    • Prescient point: Ongoing politicization may threaten “public safety and the American people” as well as future DOJ credibility.

3. Congress Interrogates Epstein's Lawyer and the Hunt for Accountability

• Congressional Grilling of Epstein's Legal and Financial Enablers ([23:30–27:31]):

  • Democrats accuse the Trump DOJ of stalling oversight and possibly covering up information linking Trump to Epstein.
  • Key Documents: Implicate wider knowledge (and possible participation) in Epstein’s crimes; questions about document redactions and removal of evidence (CDs, hard drives) from Epstein’s safe are raised.
  • Notable: An unredacted email suggests Trump’s previous claims about distancing himself from Epstein may be untrue.

• Victims and Missing Evidence ([27:31–34:09]):

  • Nancy Erica Smith (Attorney for Victims):
    • Criticizes the FBI’s handling of evidence, suggesting systemic protection of the powerful over victims.
    • Quote: “It’s outrageous that left the safe and somebody was able to take stuff out of it, bring it to his home, and then they didn’t show up to the home with a warrant for the whole house. I mean, they wouldn’t. What do you mean he wouldn’t let the FBI in the house? It’s all absurd.” ([29:59])
    • Raises the possibility that CDs and hard drives contained blackmail, payoffs, or evidence of further criminality.
    • Pushes for legislation to invalidate NDAs shielding Epstein and Trump’s past conduct.

• The Lawyer’s Defense vs. Facilitating Crime ([31:46–34:09]):

  • Discussion of boundaries between legal representation and actively abetting criminal schemes (“fixer or co-conspirator”).
  • Smith asserts: “Yeah, I think it’s highly unlikely that he didn’t know. It’s highly unlikely.” ([32:30])
  • Calls for sunshine laws to void NDAs so the public can learn the truth.

4. Music, Culture, and Political Change ([36:09–44:01])

• Melber pivots to explore cultural shifts, media mergers, and the globalization of music in the streaming age.
• Highlights the backlash over Bad Bunny’s Spanish-language Super Bowl performance as emblematic of changing American tastes, despite right-wing criticism.
• Guest: Neil Shaw (Music Journalist):
  • Observes streaming has democratized access; global artists like Bad Bunny, BTS, and Afrobeats are now chart-toppers.
  • Notes increased “income inequality” in the concert business—top 1% of artists earn most ticket revenue.
  • Reflects on the political quietness of today’s major artists, compared to the activism of past generations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Economic Pain for the Public:
  • Jared Bernstein, on gas prices and refunds: “That gas price increase is going to eat people’s refunds pretty much fully through.” ([09:55])
• On DOJ Abuse:
  • Barbara McQuade: “Law firms do zealously advocate… but they usually do so within the parameters of the law.” ([17:34])
• On Epstein Cover-Ups:
  • Nancy Erica Smith: “I think that the FBI in this case certainly decided to protect the powerful and the connected and women and young girls just didn’t matter.” ([29:59])
  • On invalidating hush agreements: “Congress passes a law invalidating all NDAs… Let’s have the truth. We want the truth. No NDAs.” ([33:12])
• On Cultural Shifts in Music:
  • Neil Shaw: “Streaming has allowed some of these global artists to crash through the traditional gatekeepers… Latin music, Bad Bunny, K Pop, Afrobeats.” ([39:53])
  • On “1%ification” of live music: “Income inequality… is really apparent in the concert industry…” ([42:59])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:00–06:36 — U.S.-Iran military escalation and oil sanctions reversal
• 04:31–13:21 — Expert panel: Economic and security consequences
• 16:51–21:20 — DOJ attacks on James Comey and lawfare pattern
• 23:30–34:09 — Congressional grilling of Epstein’s lawyer; missing evidence; victim’s rights
• 36:09–44:01 — Music, media mergers, and the global streaming revolution

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Tone and Style

Ari Melber maintains a fact-driven, lawyerly tone, prioritizing clarity, skepticism, and transparency. Guests bring a mix of deep expertise and direct criticism, while the congressional and legal segments display a palpable sense of urgency regarding justice and institutional integrity.

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Summary Usefulness

This summary synthesizes the episode’s coverage of U.S.-Iran crisis impacts, DOJ politicization, ongoing Epstein fallout, and wider cultural commentary. It delivers a detailed, timestamped breakdown suitable for listeners seeking context, memorable quotes, and crisp analysis of the most consequential current events covered.

Transcript

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[Ari Melber]

Welcome to the beat. I'm Ari Melbert. We begin with Trump's war on Iran. It's threatening now to really metastasize into a global economic crisis. And the strategy has reached levels of incoherence and public contradiction. World markets very much rattled today. Here's some video from Iran. The largest natural gas field in the world is on fire. That's after some Israeli strikes. Iran has hit oil and gas infrastructures throughout the Middle East. We have footage there from Saudi Arabia. Cycle of escalating attacks on energy targets. Trump tried to tamp this down and he's threatening to escalate his own attacks, though on energy targets. He says the US Will massively blow up Iran's largest gas field if Iran strikes more oil fields. The treasury secretary also taking this kind of approach, saying the US Is considering rolling back sanctions on Iranian oil.

[Unnamed Treasury Official]

We had a break the glass plan across the administration and at Treasury. We unsanctioned Russian oil. We knew that There were about 130 million barrels on the water and we created supply that is beyond the Straits of Hormuz. In the coming days, we may unsanction the Iranian oil that's on the water. It's about 140 million barrels.

[Ari Melber]

Unsanctioned Iranian oil. That, of course, is a reversal of something that has been a long standing way to have impact on Iran. Bloomberg reports doing that would be a reversal of policy since the US has used energy sanctions to bring Tehran to the negotiating table over nukes. The price of crude jumping 100 to $119 a barrel. Then it kind of moved around and landed around 108. Experts say gas prices could reach 4 bucks a gallon The Pentagon is preparing to ask Congress to pay this bill. And this is a rolling, rising tab, $200 billion. Those numbers only go up. They don't go down. There's also reporting the Pentagon is eyeing a new phase, considering deploying thousands of US Troops to the Middle East. This would be to secure the Strait of Hormuz as well as a hub for oil experts. Reuters reporting on that. Trump has been sending mixed signals. People ask boots on the ground.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

No boots on the ground.

[Ari Melber]

Four weeks, two weeks, six weeks.

[Neil Shaw]

Go in.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Go in. President Trump knows. I know you don't tell the enemy.

[Ari Melber]

The Iranian regime is still Sky News. If you put boots on the ground in Iraq, it will be another Vietnam. Are you afraid of that? No, I'm not afraid of. I'm really not afraid of anything. What are the circumstances where you'd send in ground troops? How are you thinking about that? You know, I'm not going to answer it. Could there be possibly. For very good reason. Have to be very good reason. I'm not putting troops anywhere. If I were, I certainly wouldn't tell you, but I'm not putting troops. Wouldn't tell you, but a bit of a mix there. It's contradictory messages on the troops, on the timeline and the end game. What's the rationale and how do we know when we're done? Top intelligence official Tulsi Gabbard was grilled about Iran and whether it poses a threat. There is no imminent threat of nuclear breakout.

[Congressman Goldman]

Did you deliver that assessment to the president?

[Barbara McQuade]

I have delivered the intelligence community's assessments to the president.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Were they weeks away of achieving a nuclear weapon? Yes or no?

[Barbara McQuade]

Congressman, this is a serious matter.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Yes or no? Were they weeks away? Yes or no?

[Barbara McQuade]

Service to you and the American people. To answer this, claiming my time,

[Ari Melber]

we're now joined by Jared Bernstein, chair of the Council on Economic Advisors under President Biden. Larry Pfeiffer, national security intelligence expert. He served in Bush 43, CIA and the Obama National Security Council, and we should note, has been a technical advisor on A House of Dynamite, Kathryn Bigelow's Netflix film, which brings the threat of nuclear war to your home screen and is a harrowing, a harrowing way to look at all these issues. I want to start with you, Jared, on the. On the economics. Why is the US Right now acting so desperate under the Trump administration, talking about unsanctioning? And is this something we can easily back out of? Can we go back to where we were before they started the war?

[Jared Bernstein]

Well, it's getting tougher and tougher. To back out. I don't think easy would be a word that comes to mind, especially when you start seeing as some of your clips just showed, the destruction of infrastructure. One of the things we know is that when these types of conflicts end, if oil production infrastructure has been destroyed, it of course takes much longer to resume production and refinement. But in terms of why this is so challenging, before this war started, the Trump administration had a really tough record when it comes to affordability, which of course is the number one concern of so many American households right now. The tariffs, of course, exacerbated that problem. Well, now we have it hitting the energy markets in ways that again, you just described the price of gas. The retail price of gas is up about 90 cents a gallon in just a few weeks. Diesel's up 142. And this doesn't just affect people filling their tanks. This affects the food market. This affects groceries. I even noticed today that the 30 year fixed rate mortgage rate has spiked up 40 basis points, 4/10 of a percent on the basis of some of the financial dynamics around the war. So it's very costly to American households at a time when they're most concerned about affordability issues.

[Ari Melber]

Larry, same question. And we're seeing this kind of odd telegraphic from the White House, which seems like short term planning will unsanction do a loophole for a little bit, then get back to normal. But your view of all this, well,

[Larry Pfeiffer]

you hit the nail on the head there in terms of short term planning. This appears if I was a foreign intelligence service and I was looking at what's happening with America's management of this war with Iran, I would walk away saying there is no interagency process affording the president detailed and necessary expertise. You have services, the diplomatic corps, the intelligence corps, the Defense Department, other places, FBI, Homeland security that have been gutted of expertise either intentionally or unintentionally through these early retirements. You have apparently inadequate, maybe the most polite way to describe it, management of this small coalition we built with Israel. You have Tulsi Gabbard today up on the Hill telling Congress that we have differing objectives in this war. And she seemed to be okay with that.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, we also had this official who, who's resigned with a bundle of sort of critiques and the administration's been lashing out at him. He spoke to, it's Joe Kent spoke to Tucker Carlson. Larry, take a listen.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

The argument that there was an imminent threat, as in Iran was planning to attack us immediately, that just simply did not exist. There was no intelligence that said, hey, on whatever day it was, March 1st, the Iranians are going to launch this sneak attack. They're going to do some kind of a 9, 11, Pearl harbor, et cetera. They're going to attack one of our bases. There was none of that intelligence, Larry.

[Larry Pfeiffer]

So not a big fan of Joe Kent. Didn't think he should have gotten the job even to begin with. But as they say, a broken clock can be correct twice a day. I think this is an instance where he's speaking truth to power. There does not appear to have been any change in intelligence since a year ago when Tulsi Gabbard went up on the Hill and said that Iran had not made a decision to recommence its nuclear weapons development program. We've subsequently had the 12 day war where the infrastructure to support such an effort was, quote, unquote, obliterated. And today, up on the Hill, you didn't have anybody willing to commit to the notion that there was intelligence indicating that there was an imminent threat. Instead, you have Tulsi Gabbard dodging behind this notion that only the President can decide that what is an imminent threat. As a guy who worked 32 years in the intel community, the history of that intel community is such that, you know, it was founded on the fact that we didn't provide sufficient warning before Pearl harbor. And the most significant reforms to that intel community happened after 9, 11, another instance where we didn't provide enough specific warning for an administration to act. So the intel community takes that responsibility very seriously to provide that imminent warning.

[Ari Melber]

Jared, where do you see this going on, the oil and economic front?

[Jared Bernstein]

Well, there's a phenomenon in this market, it's called rockets and feathers. Another way of saying that the gas price takes the elevator up and the stairs down. It's kind of a reflection on some of the things I was talking about earlier. Once this war ends, this is not a switch, a flip the switch moment to get things back to where they were. Oil prices, gas prices shoot up very quickly, but they come down quite slowly. I'm pretty confident we're going to be looking at gas above $4 a gallon pretty soon. We're almost at 390 right now, and it's been rising fast, and it's been very sensitive to sort of the just degrading of the infrastructure and the way the war has been prosecuted, as per your last discussion with Larry. So I see this as being a real squeeze to American consumers. You one of the things the administration has been touting is that average Tax refunds are supposed to go up this year because of the budget bill. Maybe something like six or seven hundred dollars per household that gets a refund. But we're looking at an increase in the gas price according to our estimation based on the dynamics I just described. That's in that same ballpark. So basically this gas price increase is going to eat people's refunds pretty much fully through. And so that's again, that's the kind pinch that households are facing on the back of this war.

[Ari Melber]

And Jared, you've served in a White House. Everyone says they're doing the work, but politics suffuses everything. Trump's not shy about that. He just lost a big push to try to strong arm the Fed into taking on economic policies, juicing the economy going into the midterms. He admits it, although he lost. How do you, if you have a negative or skeptical view of this President, how do you square that whole thing which was trying to get the economy better going into the midterms for his political reasons? And he might say cuz he thinks it would be better for the country with a now open ended oil mess of a war that as you just described and anyone can look at the pump or the markets and see the problem. How do you square that with him roiling the markets, which is the opposite of what he wanted to do to make things quote unquote better for the midterms?

[Jared Bernstein]

Well, it's unsquarable. In other words, what the President told a lot of people even back to the campaign is that I'm going to make your life more affordable. You'll see lower prices, lower interest rates. He comes into office and well before this war he starts making your life less affordable by slapping tariffs on virtually all of our imports. Then he launches this war which is having the effects we just described on the gas price.

[Ari Melber]

So but what does unsquareable mean? You think he doesn't get it, he's incompetent?

[Jared Bernstein]

I think that his, I think that he is a phony quote populist. I think his message to he tells the people what he wants them to hear and then he goes out and acts in ways that are antithetical to that. He's going and Larry's right, he's just going based on his instincts which have proven to be really pretty bad. He has way too much self confidence in his knowledge which of this region is just remarkable. The mess they've gotten us into this quickly.

[Larry Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

Jared Bernstein, Larry Pfeiffer kicking us off on two aspects of this. Thank you very much. I want to tell folks, tonight, Congress is putting the heat on the Trump doj, Epstein's lawyer under oath. But next, we just talked about Donald Trump's approach to the Fed. He's using the same failed playbook against James Comey. A brand new subpoena against the FBI director who stood up to him. I have special legal breakdown on this and a guest, but we're back in 90 seconds. Breaking news today. DOJ subpoenaing former FBI Director James Comey. Another sign that Trump's DOJ continues to target his perceived enemies even after getting slapped down in court. Trump has long resented Comey as an independent official, an FBI director that he could not control or politicize in those early days of his first term. In fact, if you've followed politics long enough, it was one of the big first clashes and then got wrapped up into the Mueller probe. But Trump publicly called for selective prosecution of Comey, which is illegal now. The last case fell apart in November because the DOJ's temporary prosecutor who went after Comey was found to be serving illegally. The case thrown out. Now, those defeated allegations were thin. It was about Comey back when he was in office and then afterward when he was testifying about what he did in office, whether he misled Congress. These new subpoenas go back even farther. They try to allege that U.S. officials, including Comey, who handled intelligence about Russia and dealt with probes into Trump's campaign, were somehow part of a criminal conspiracy, according to Axios reporting. Now, let's just be clear. When you have an honest DOJ, and there's news of subpoenas or charges against someone, it usually tends to come with evidence and the prospect that a subject is in the wrong. In other words, we follow all the evidence, but you say, oh, there's probably something there, whether it amounts to a crime or not. Nowadays, with this DOJ under Trump and Bondi, it has become the opposite. Probes of most top government officials tend to add to the evidence against the DOJ and not those people. It adds to the evidence of a quite blatantly huge illegal enemies list because Trump has illicitly asked, often in public, to abuse DOJ powers, to go after the people you see on your screen, to probe and investigate, to indict or arrest and even jail people who exercise their rights to disagree with them or their oath to the Constitution. If this list looks almost comically large, it is because a lot of these in green, for example, fell apart. But these are the many people that we know of that they're trying to go after. It includes the current federal officials like the Fed chair. These efforts have failed. Trump just lost another bid to subpoena Chairman Powell, which we discussed on tonight's program. That was just last week. The judge dealing Trump a loss, publicly showing he was powerless to misuse subpoenas as a form of, quote, harassment. That's the word the judge used. So tonight we have a serious report of the misuse, possibly of more subpoenas to harass someone who's already been cleared several times, Mr. Comey. But you can't look at it alone. We're going to bring you the facts without fear or favor here, even though this enemy's list, as you see in the upper middle, includes journalists. Now, Don Lemon indicted by the same doj. But taken together, this isn't just a story about James Comey and Donald Trump. It's a story about the wholesale abuse of the DOJ to go after these enemies. Now, if I had to update this with some fairness and say, on the other hand, some of these cases went to trial and landed in convictions, I would tell you if that happened. But a year in, they are zero when it comes to closing and winning any of these cases. I'm joined by Barbara McQuade, former U.S. attorney and MSNow legal analyst. I mention all that because we could go into the particulars of this Comey subpoena, and I'm curious to hear your view of it as described so. But I don't think we can accurately at this point deal with the Trump DOJ without looking at the pattern. How do you see it tonight?

[Barbara McQuade]

I think that's absolutely right, Ari. I mean, I'm glad you included on the screen there not only Jerome Powell and Don Lemon, but how about the six members of Congress who merely restated the law accurately and had an effort at indicting all of them? And so, you know, I know sometimes this Justice Department is accused of being Donald Trump's personal law firm, but it's more than that. Law firms do zealously advocate on behalf of their client, but they usually do so within the parameters of the law and ethics. And what we're seeing by this Justice Department are these efforts to find charges against people where, at least in some instances, we know there are none. And so I am concerned, you know, about this case in particular, Ari. We know that there have already been three investigations into the origins of the Russia investigation. There was the Mueller report, there was an inspector general report. There was the John Durham investigation. And all of them found only some minor problems, and those have already been dealt with. We also know that the Mueller report was final in 2019. You know, my math's not that great, but I think it's beyond the five year statute of limitations. And so it's very difficult to imagine that there is a real case here, but certainly there is the ability to make people's lives miserable. There is the ability to create at least an impression that there was something phony going on about this. And what's different here, Ari, from what we saw in the Powell Federal Reserve case of last week is that it's not Chief Judge James Boasberg who is going to be overseeing these subpoenas and in that case quashed subpoenas because he found a mountain of evidence that the investigation was pretextual. But it appears that this investigation is being run out of Fort Pierce, Florida, under the watchful eye of none other than Judge Aileen Cannon. And so it may be that a little judge shopping is going on here as well.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, you look at the judge shopping and you look at the wider pattern. Should honest judges keep that in mind? We're always told that judges look only at the case before them. But at a certain point, this habitual abuse has led some judges that we saw, you mentioned the quashing of the subpoena. There's been a clash in New Jersey about the misuse of prosecutors under Trump. We're seeing some judges act more quickly to be more skeptical of the government. Whereas, as I mentioned, in normal times there's regular order and there's some deference to the doj.

[Barbara McQuade]

Yeah, there's ordinarily this phrase that's referred to as the presumption of regularity, that is that government lawyers take an oath to support the Constitution, that they are acting in good faith, and when it comes to grand jury subpoenas, they are entitled to a very broad scope of deference. It isn't even that it has to be relevant to an investigation, just that it's it could be relevant to finding some discovery that might be relevant to an investigation. And yet what you say is so important. That is this administration, though, time and again has demonstrated that it has lost that presumption of regularity. So I do think that we are going to see many judges take a more skeptical eye, as has already been done. But I don't know that we're going to get that from Judge Aileen Cannon. I also worry, Ari, about what this does to the Justice Department going forward. While we do have what appear to be very politically motivated cases. There are also honorable assistant US Attorneys all over the country who are investigating real cases of kidnapping and human trafficking and bank robbery and other kinds of things. And if the Justice Department loses this presumption of regularity because of the abuse that we're seeing by the Justice Department, I worry that public safety and the American people will be poorly served in the future because of the way this Justice Department has kind of ruined it for everybody.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, this is why we can't have nice Justice Departments, as the saying goes. Barbara McQuaid, we do appreciate your clarity, your sobriety on these kind of stories, and we're going to stay on these, even if it can seem exhausting to look at the list we showed you. So thank you. Later tonight I have a fact check for Megyn Kelly and Secretary of State Rubio. Stick around for that. The Epstein scandal continues to give Pam Bondi a different set of problems. We're going to get into that and the evidence about Epstein lawyer hiding material out of their safe. That's next.

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[Ari Melber]

There's been a lot going on with the Epstein probe in Congress and what Democrats say are evasions by the Trump doj. Democrats say the attorney general may be trying to evade a lawful subpoena, forcing her to testify on this because she's been dodging the House oversight. Chairman Comer appears to be backing Bondi, although he did be. He was a part of the committee pursuing the subpoena. But now we're talking about what it means to really comply. He does say yesterday's briefing would not replace, of course, the public process of testifying under oath. There's also testimony coming in from Epstein's longtime lawyer, who told Congress he just didn't know about Epstein's wrongdoing. Now, people are entitled to a lawyer and a criminal defense lawyer, but there are larger questions here. There are documents suggesting the facilitation of. Of payments to women, as well as directing witnesses to avoid law enforcement. And so while no one should be denied a lawyer, even if you face the most heinous allegations in the world under US Constitutional law, that does not mean that lawyers can just do anything. And so there are still questions. We've probed some of them about the people around Epstein and whether they cross the line into joining in his crimes. Congress is going through the unredacted files. Congressman Goldman yesterday said that one unredacted version of an email, which was heavily blacked out, raises questions that it contradicts some of Trump's defenses about why he ever broke ties with Epstein.

[Congressman Goldman]

This document here was redacted to the public. It was unredacted to Congress, and it completely disputes everything that Donald Trump has said about Jeffrey Epstein, about what he knew about the allegations, about his disgusting behavior. If the attorney General is covering up this information that she then reveals to Congress, what else is she covering up about Donald Trump's involvement?

[Ari Melber]

This is active, the pressure and the evidence is pouring out as we speak. That was, of course, just yesterday, middle of this week. The Daily Beast reports about that same email that it would suggest Epstein maybe was never even asked to leave Trump's club and that Trump may have been on Epstein's plane and at his home. Now, to be clear, this is an email out of the larger tranche of files. Ms. Now hasn't confirmed the underlying validity of those documents. Trump hasn't been accused of criminal wrongdoing related to those documents. But even if they simply show that Trump has been lying for years about why he broke up his friendship with Epstein, that is a matter of major public interest. Now Congress is doing some of this work, however delayed. Today. The Epstein lawyer, Darren Indyke was being grilled. He's one of the two key lawyers for Epstein. As I mentioned, they say they were just doing their jobs. Other people question whether they took a role as lawyer and turn it into fixer or worse or ever knowledgeably knowingly got involved in the criminal scheme and facilitating payments that you know are for breaking the law is different than for example, providing someone legal defense. Now take reporting about one of them. Richard Caught. He was a longtime accountant. Now Congress grilled him as well. He was previously questioned by the FBI about the contents of this safe. Take a good look because the BBC has reported, based again on a lot of the new information we're getting, that when the FBI originally raided Epstein's New York mansion back in 2019, the very day he was arrested, agents forced open the safe you just saw and they found valuables like diamonds and cash. But they also found binders of CDs and hard drives. Now stay with me here because it gets interesting. There was an issue allegedly with the warrant and so they didn't leave with all the items. Then they returned with a new warrant. The BBC notes that then the safe had been emptied while they were gone. The FBI documents, including the newly released Epstein files give more color to this Now Khan then told the mansion staff pack up two suitcases with the contents of that safe that he was going to take to his home. According to the FBI, that could allegedly include things like CDs and hard drives. Which makes you wonder what did this sex trafficker want with CDs in his safe. After the FBI spoke to Khan's then lawyer, he agreed to hand over those suitcases allegedly untouched. He didn't want agents coming to his house though, and declined to say who told him to remove the items. This is when your accountants need accountants and your lawyers need lawyers. Khan's lawyer telling the BBC his client did cooperate with the FBI and that is BBC's reporting. We haven't independently gotten additional information, but these are all the questions that with the new files really make you wonder why the DOJ seemed to operate this way. Why was evidence allowed to be removed from the safe? Did they confirm they got all the right CDs? Why didn't they pursue these leads more? Part of this story, of course seems to continue to revolve around the politics and the pressure and the blame game. But another big part of it is still about the victims and the evidence and how long it took to get any kind of justice. And why, even when you had an FBI warrant, you could go in, take stuff out of that safe, and then return it on your good word and promise a little later on. Nancy Erica Smith, who takes no prisoners, is my special guest on this next.

[Barbara McQuade]

Do you commit to complying with that subpoena and appearing for a closed door deposition? I made it crystal clear I will follow the law. But does that mean you will? Does that mean you appear?

[Ari Melber]

We sat there saying, anything you want to ask us? Ask us anything you want to ask us. And they screamed, C span wasn't there one of them? And then they stormed out of the meeting. That's the attorney General's take on this clash over whether she will follow the subpoena to testify under oath in public. She says C SPAN like it's a dirty word. It's actually part of how congressional hearings are broadcast for every agency. We're joined now by attorney Nancy Erica Smith. She has done civil rights work and represented numerous victims of workplace harassment and sexual assault. Welcome back.

[Nancy Erica Smith]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

Let's start with what sounds like a very unusual situation with Epstein's former lawyer and accountant. Congress is finally taking this testimony. I walked through some of the odd scenarios, including that safe. We can put the photo back up. Your view of all that?

[Nancy Erica Smith]

Well, the FBI has never been great on sexism. I mean, the FBI has been sued for sexism and misogyny many, many times. So I think that the FBI in this case certainly decided to protect the powerful and the connected and women and young girls just didn't matter because it's outrageous that left the safe and somebody was able to take stuff out of it, bring it to his home, and then they didn't show up to the home with a warrant for the whole house. I mean, they wouldn't. What do you mean he wouldn't let the FBI in the house? It's all absurd.

[Ari Melber]

And when you're dealing with someone like Epstein and you find out that he has CDs and hard drives and you know, that he has a surveillance system and you know now from the files that were released that he would talk to people about, let me get the records of this and the email of that and prove where people were, what other questions does that raise in a competent probe of what's on the CDs?

[Nancy Erica Smith]

In a competent probe? Well, many of the young victims have said that he videoed them. So we, you know, and there's certainly some evidence in the files that he was blackmailing people, that he would say Things like, well, I would never tell your secrets. Well, that's a way of saying, maybe I'll tell your secrets. So the CDs, they may have settlement agreements, they may have legal documents, they may have information about the numerous shell cor corporations. It says that the investigation was never serious from the time that it was dismantled. And he got a sweetheart deal in Florida right up until the time he died.

[Ari Melber]

And so everyone's entitled to a lawyer. And when people hear us say that, I mean that there's some people in this country who don't care about the constitutional rule of law. We do. And so you could be accused of a quadruple homicide. You get a lawyer in this country under the Constitution.

[Barbara McQuade]

Right.

[Ari Melber]

But you don't get a fixer or co conspirator or a mob lawyer who's a criminal. There is a difference there. And so I don't want to be misheard as impugning anyone's right to counsel. But Mr. Indyke says to Congress now that these questions late are being asked. He says to explain all this money stuff. Mr. Epstein, quote, had difficulty accessing credit cards from banks. He required cash to pay for expenses like maintenance, repairs and daily household needs, meals, gifts, gratuities and fuel for his private aircraft. Is this a valid and competent defense for a sophisticated attorney? Or did he know, or should he have known that the amount of cash in shell corporations and other activities suggested future misuse of funds for sex trafficking?

[Nancy Erica Smith]

Yeah, I think it's highly unlikely that he didn't know. It's highly unlikely. I don't have the facts. But we do know that Kahn, Epstein's accountant testified that the Epstein estate settled with Jane Doe number a very important Jane Doe. Jane Doe number four's files were hidden until Trump bombed Iran and changed the subject. Jane Doe's number four files were only found missing because of the Maxwell discovery. And people noticed that Bates stamps numbers that lawyers use to identify documents were missing. So we get, finally, right after bombing Iran, we get the Jane Doe number four files. Now, lying to the FBI is a crime. Martha Stewart went to jail for it all. People interviewed by the FBI are told that Jane Doe number four alleged to the FBI that Epstein abused her when she was 13 and that Trump abused her when she was 15. Kahn, Epstein's accountant, testified that the Epstein estate settled with Jane Joe number four for both Epstein and Trump. His lawyer tried to walk that back, indict refused to confirm or deny that. Now how do we get to the bottom of that? Congress passes a law invalidating all NDAs from the Trump or the Trump Organization from Epstein, any of his entities from the estate or based on any activities at the Epstein properties. Let's have the truth. We want the truth. No NDAs.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. You're speaking to how we could get to the facts. And as we always say, if the facts clear people, if you remove the muzzle and the facts clear people, great, then the country benefits from that. And if the facts are complicated, let's get into them, as you say. And you know how this works. I think you're making important points here. Thanks as always for joining us.

[Nancy Erica Smith]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

Appreciate it, Nancy. Erica Smith, we're gonna finish a break. When we come back, the fact check. I promise you, Donald Trump's diplomat, Marco Rubio, we are gonna show you how he failed Megyn Kelly's test and then some.

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[Ari Melber]

Washington has focused on media mergers lately. Trump allies reached a deal to buy the whole Warner Brothers empire, including cnn, stoking questions about the future of everything from news to American film culture, while the Oscars had jokes about an industry in decline and whether people even still really go to theaters anymore, as if they're like the bygone era of vinyl records. Of course, that would assume that vinyl records are over. And in fact, music fans are so passionate now, even though they can get music basically for free, many are buying their favorite artists old school vinyl records, leading to a sales surge that hit a billion dollars. And data shows Taylor Swift, the Weeknd and Billie Eilish are some of the most streamed artists now. And while streaming might have its drawbacks, it's reviving concerts for those big acts and broadening people's exposure to more global music. US Record stores typically focus on American music. For years, English language music has dominated pop charts, but now these streamers like Spotify make it easy to listen to the world. And did you know this? The share of music in languages besides English has doubled among the top songs compared to about five years ago now, including Korean and Portuguese hits. And that is before you even get into Spanish, where Bad Bunny has topped US and global charts with his reggaeton songs. The super bowl performance was a ratings hit even as attacks and MAGA meltdowns didn't appear to resonate with most viewers. In fact, the right wing performative snowflake outbursts basically rang pretty hollow that weekend and this week after Trump diplomat Marco Rubio went full Bunny in a recent address. Consider the contrast.

[Dr. Horton Advertiser]

Nobody understood a thing.

[Congressman Goldman]

We needed subtitles for our own Super Bowl.

[Ari Melber]

Not one word of English, not one word of English, one word.

[Barbara McQuade]

But to get up there and perform the whole, the whole show in Spanish is a middle finger to the rest of America.

[Ari Melber]

For maga, apparently it's okay when they do it. Or as Benito or Marco might say, esta bien cuando ellos loasin. Hope nobody's upset. These shifts in music and culture are broader than partisan spats and may offer a clue for where things are headed even after we get through maybe this divisive time. With that in mind, I wanna bring in a guest making his Beat debut. Neil Shaw is a longtime music reporter, many years at the Wall Street Journal. He's now working on a book about the 2010 hip hop boom. Working title all of the Lights coming out next year. Welcome.

[Neil Shaw]

Nice to see you, Ari.

[Ari Melber]

Great to have you. How about that? Music and lyrics in other languages are apparently popular.

[Neil Shaw]

Yeah, the mini backlash to Bad Bunny in the super bowl is just. And President Trump's comments about all that is just out of touch with the reality of music, pop music today. I mean, in the last half decade, Bad Bunny has been Spotify's number one artist for much, if not all of that time.

[Ari Melber]

And we hear so much about the downside of streaming or things changing? It's fascinating that American and other consumers are finding that when offered more choice, they like other songs in other places, sometimes with lyrics they don't know.

[Neil Shaw]

Yeah, lots of consumers, many artists have major problems with Spotify. I'm not saying that there aren't in the realm of artist compensation. But one thing that's been fascinating that we've seen is that streaming has allowed some of the, has allowed many of these artists, these global artists to kind of crash through the traditional gatekeepers in the American music industry such that Latin music, Bad Bunny, K Pop, the K Pop demon Hunters phenomenon, bts, which has an album coming out on Friday, Afrobeats, a lot of these sounds are getting a bigger purchase on the Zeitgeist because streaming opened doors wider than maybe the traditional industry would have.

[Ari Melber]

I want to show some of what we've seen both at the Oscars and the Grammys where we're in this corporate merger environment. I mentioned the big companies and platform don't really want to get that political. And yet we're in this moment. Take a look. That is a Grammy that every artist wants almost as much as Trump wants Greenland, which makes sense, I mean, because Epstein's island is gone. I should warn you tonight could get political. Ok. And if that makes you uncomfortable, there's an alternate Oscars being hosted by Kid Rock. Mr. Nobody against Putin is about how you lose your country. You lose it through countless small little acts of complicity.

[Unnamed Treasury Official]

Another illegal war created by Trump and Netanyahu never took to with another lie.

[Ari Melber]

Eyes out. You've covered music for decades. Is it a more political time as people respond or do you identify with the kind of corporatized everyone's a brand critique that we're nowhere near the 70s or the 60s for artistic leadership.

[Neil Shaw]

I think as a music fan and as a music expert, I think I'm disappointed in how quiet the voices are. Our country is going through pretty tenuous times right now and I think what's louder is the silence of so many artists that could be a little bit more politically active. I mean it's encouraging to see for example, Bad Bunny talk about ice at the Grammy. So I'm not saying that there aren't voices out there. I just think that they could be a lot louder.

[Ari Melber]

You've also written for the Journal looking at really the business side of this and it's connected what happens in business and how we get culture right. I mean that's why people care a lot about if MAGA folks are running Warner Brothers or CNN or what's happening in music. And so when you look at the concert side, though, you wrote about how music superstars are, you said the new 1 percenters, a very different dynamic. That's 60% of the concert ticket revenue now goes to the top 1%. That was a few years back in the concert. That was before Taylor, Beyonce and all this.

[Neil Shaw]

That was before the ERAS tour.

[Ari Melber]

The ERAS tour, right. So what's happening there and how does that matter for our culture?

[Neil Shaw]

Well, basically the same income inequality that's rampant throughout different parts of the US Economy is really apparent in the concert industry, where a lot of the money essentially is going to like the highest tier of artists. The Taylor Swifts of the world, you know, the bad bunnies of the world, the Kendrick Lamars. And less of it is going to the middle of the kind of the middle so called middle class of artists. It's a funny phenomenon because in the streaming era, the revenues of the biggest artists are getting turbocharged and also new channels are opening up for the smallest artists as well, both in streaming and in the live industry. Where you where things get difficult is in the middle, where in the CD regime and back in the 90s it might have been a little easier for people to make a living with their concerts and with their albums. It's a little harder now and the 1%ification of live music doesn't help.

[Ari Melber]

Music writer and author Neil Shaw. Thanks for being here here. We try to cover all the ground we can here on the Beat, the TV show we do for you. But there is more. We have extra stuff in our podcast exclusives. Sometimes we go into the big questions like does law even work? Or why did it take so long to get to the Epstein story? And then now it's like always the top story. And so we have these podcast extras. You can go on Apple podcasts or on your phone, wherever you get your podcasts and just search the big. You can search my name, Ari Melber, and you will be able to hear things that we literally don't include in the show because we don't have enough time. My conversations with the guests you see on your screen. We have a new one recently with Emily Bazelon. Sometimes we even go in a different direction. Chef Mario Carbone and I talk about how long you should cook your pasta and why it's not worth it, he says, to get caviar. So whatever you want, more law or a little bit of kitchen tips, we've got it for you. Subscribe to the Beat podcast and you will get our nightly podcast and those extra all right. Thanks for spending time with us. Keep it locked right here. There is a lot of news tonight as you might have noticed.

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