← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Emails show Epstein's links to two MAGA lawyers
00:40:33
November 21, 2025; 6pm: MS NOW's Ari Melber breaks down the Epstein emails, including newly-surfaced messages from lawyers who went on to represent Trump. Margaret Carlson, Cornell Belcher, and former Justice Department attorney Mike Romano join.
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- [00:00]
Mike Romano
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- [00:30]
Ari Melber
If you are a fighter, Modelo is your so listen close. You are strong. You are fearless. You are a fighter. And every last drop of this rich, golden Modelo is yours. So raise it up high because you've earned it.
- [00:41]
Cornell Belcher
Lidello the mark of a fighter.
- [00:43]
Ari Melber
Drink responsibly. Being reported by Car Imports, Chicago, Illinois. We are rounding up quite the week. Welcome to the beat. I'm Ari Melbert. Tonight we have a new special breakdown, another in our series or volumes of the Epstein emails. Newly surfaced emails that goes deep into the legal games, the PR games, the high powered Republican lawyers that Epstein relied on, some of whom went on to represent Trump. Also, as Trump DOJ faces this deadline, we have an exclusive tonight with a DOJ vet. But we begin with what is clearly the worst week of Donald Trump's second term. Some see a tipping point. The polls are cratering, the economic confidence plunging and more Republicans doing something that if you follow the news and you're hearing my voice, so you do. Or if you've just been around American politics in the second or first Trump term, you've heard over and over, Republicans, they won't stand up to them. They're afraid. They certainly won't do it in public on big matters. Well, that's changed. That talking point died a loud and kind of dramatic death this week with Republicans going from a lot of that to openly defying him. Not a single Republican friend in the Senate would do what he wanted to even slow down that Epstein train this week. Others going further, meaning they could have done that and stopped. But here we are ending the week Friday with more reports of Republicans saying let's build on the pressure, let's stake out our power, let's make sure DOJ understands they will comply with the files, whether that could be a court fight. And others saying something you usually hear from the opposition party, that a second term president is quickly becoming a lame duck. As they pass the Epstein files bill that Trump desperately failed to try to block.
- [02:32]
Margaret Carlson
Just seconds ago, a landslide vote.
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Mike Romano
In the House of Representatives.
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Margaret Carlson
The release of the Epstein files has passed the House.
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Commercial Announcer
A reckoning over the Epstein files on Capitol Hill.
- [02:42]
Ari Melber
The Trump presidency as we have known it is over.
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Commercial Announcer
We're just hearing that Trump has signed the Epstein Act.
- [02:49]
Ari Melber
Donald Trump put his surrender and humiliation in writing, in capital letters, troubling signs for President Trump even within his own party.
- [02:57]
Cornell Belcher
That puts his approval really about where.
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Commercial Announcer
His predecessor, Democrat Joe Biden's, was for.
- [03:02]
Ari Melber
Most of the second half of his of his term. This is albatross hanging around the neck of the president, an albatross that is haunting the approval ratings. These are second term lows in multiple surveys, so you can check AP, Reuters or Fox. We're looking at these high 30s, which means he has lost the approval, the support about how he's doing his job from a ton of people who voted for him. That's kind of the difference there. When you win around around 49.50 and you find yourself stuck, according to the AP, at 36%. New York Times reports, congressional Republicans already beginning to look beyond Trump. That's a headline to end the week that shows how bad a week it was. And these are the first signs of Trump's lame duck status. The report says Trump's previously ironclad grip on the Republican Congress might be weakening earlier than usual before the more typical loss of power by a sitting president that follows the midterm elections. If what the Times is writing here sounds familiar, it is something we reported on this program about two to three weeks ago because this is a story of evidence, not just narrative, as they like to say. And the signs have been building over the past few weeks in the polling and in the Republicans that were countable on the Epstein and other issues. Remember, we only got here because several Republicans joined the Democrats on that petition, that rare special tool to override a sitting speaker, in this case also override a sitting president. And so we said when you look ahead at how the president is polling and how many unpopular things he's done at the wobbling at parts of the MAGA base podcast sphere, the influencers that we've covered, we show you those clips. We said that what often is a later lame duck precedent, which you see in political science, has hit Trump earlier. And so yes, Trump has defied certain political laws of gravity to his benefit. At times he is different. His supporters and his opponents all agree he's different. But now we're seeing he's breaking precedent in the other way. Where other presidents have benefited from some leeway in the second term, the things he's done this year, and it's a Friday, I'm not going to run through them all, combined with the way that he has lied to and disrespected his base on an issue where he promised them transparency but gave them lies, has blown up and made him an earlier lame duck. For those who felt that Biden had lost a step in year three and four didn't have the same power, Trump is now at those Biden level. Year four numbers in year one. And the country wants the files. The FBI deploying police to guard the facility where many of the Epstein files are believed to be located. Of course, they could be in more than one place with how vast the federal government is and the different issues here, but that's part of the security. House Democrats warning Bondi she can't use that ongoing investigations cover up to hide information. And the best evidence that the Democrats and Republicans have since they voted together against Bondi is that she said on DOJ letterhead as a matter of a government assertion, there was no more cases to be tried. That statement, if it proves inoperable or a lie, raises other questions of her cover up and misconduct on the issue that is now kneecapping Donald Trump's first term, lame ducking him early on, I want to bring in Semaphore editor at large Margaret Carlson and longtime Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher. Welcome to both of you, Cornell. The numbers tell the story. The narrative, as I mentioned, the way that people look at stories through highlights was enunciated with that exclamation point in losing the vote this week.
- [06:50]
Cornell Belcher
No, it really was. And I think what you see moving now and with the Republicans is they're coming to consciousness with this. And I think if you look at that PBS Marist poll this week, it is devastating when you get underneath the surface of that and you look at independents where generically Republicans are losing independent voters, Ari by 33 points. They're losing the suburbs by 10 points. If you're sitting in a congressional, a, you know, a swing Republican congressional seat and you're a Republican, you, you've got to be really upset about this. You got to understand that this has become now about you. It's no longer even about the president. I mean, they're looking at perhaps a tidal wave. And we've seen that in every special election and the, and, and the off year elections happening right now. And look, the president's not going to help them. I mean, he's underwater on all of his job performance numbers are, and you've done them before. I mean, even around what was once his strong point of even immigration and crime. You know, the American people, particularly independent Voters are turning against him. And in Fox's own polling, you saw that more Americans believe that he is, he is hurting his policies, are hurting the economy than helping. So at some point, Republicans are going to have to cut from him in order to try to save themselves.
- [08:10]
Ari Melber
Margaret?
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Margaret Carlson
Well, there's a little bit of cutting going on in that. He really wanted the Senate to get rid of the filibuster and they didn't. He, of course, gave in because he was going to lose on, you know, he's going to lose the vote on whether those records were going to come out. Now, I don't know if this is right, but when Pam Bondi said all the investigations were over and so the files would come out, I think Trump set it up when he said that he wanted Democrats investigated and her investigating those Democrats. They're going to use that as an excuse to redact more and more things in the files because, you know, those, they're guarding them in Winchester, Virginia. But there's no way that Pam Bondi doesn't have the final say on what's going to be seen in those files. And I think that's a loophole that they're going to exploit.
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Ari Melber
Yeah, well, I'll let you continue. I would just quibble with the word finals. She will have a say, right? You could run a hypothetical where she says, no, we're giving you zero. And the vote we just saw that was bipartisan, will then be attesting. They'll be angry, they'll feel the need to do something. They go to court, a judge may have the final say. The DOJ's lawyers and the FBI still respond to judicial orders that would take longer. But if we go down that road, it's not even clear, Margaret, that that helps Trump and Bondi, I mean, they may be so worried about what's in there that like many a Greek or Shakespearean tragedy or the famous Watergate cover up, they're so worried that the response kind of bludgeons the rest of the year until the midterms.
- [09:56]
Margaret Carlson
Right. Well, and even though the courts move slowly, just as the wheels grind slowly, the case would probably be heard on that question. You know, at some point, the amount of energy and the amount of denial just says to the ordinary person, we're not ordinary. Cornell and Ari, in case you didn't know, it's very ordinary.
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Ari Melber
But go ahead.
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Margaret Carlson
How, you know, the Trump thing, where the COVID up is worse than the crime, this is an extraordinary amount of effort to cover up something if it doesn't need to be Covered up. I mean, my imagination runs wild. But it doesn't really have to, because there's stuff in there that Trump is risking his popularity according to these polls, that Cornell has to keep them from coming out. That's part of what's hurting him. And so how long do they.
- [10:55]
Ari Melber
Yeah, and Cornell, please. Sorry.
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Margaret Carlson
Yeah, I'm done.
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Ari Melber
How long? Yeah, how long? You know, how long must I sing this song is where I was going with that, Margaret, of course you were. A little YouTube. Little you, too. On Friday.
- [11:11]
Margaret Carlson
It's Friday. You'll do a rap song about it. Okay.
- [11:15]
Ari Melber
I mean, shout out to Bono, but we could get to rap at some point. Cornell, you know, Margaret is a great writer and storyteller. We've. I've read her most of my adult life here and there. And the story is so bad. And that's different than the evidence. I always say we will follow the evidence, where it goes. There were times in the middle of the Mueller report where a lot of bad stuff came out about Trump's team and a bunch of people got convicted. But Mueller, to be very clear, never found what he thought met a criminal standard regarding crimes. To work with Russia, there were things that were unseemly. Some people would call it unpatriotic, but you have to wait for the evidence. The congressional story, though, is not about the evidence. It is about a rebuke. And I want to read to you a great description of it we saw here from the Hill. Cornell. And you can fill in how it happened, but they write. When HBO inevitably makes a definitive miniseries about the Trump presidency, the events of this past week are without a doubt going to be one of the season finales. Watching the bill go from a stall discharge petition with hundreds, two hundred and seventy signatures to passing Congress by a combined vote of 5:27 to 1 has got to be one of the most dramatic events in American political history. Continuing to say Trump spent months lying to keep the files locked away, he fired supporters for wanting them released. When it became clear a hundred or more Republicans would vote to release, he then, quote, on the theory that the important thing is to be obeyed, which Margaret alluded to, Trump publicly insisted he was in favor of the House bill. The White House didn't anticipate how enthusiastically Republicans would accept his offer. Cornell, as the writer argues, we haven't seen anything like this in a long time.
- [13:02]
Cornell Belcher
No, we have not. And we certainly haven't seen it from this recent crop of Republicans who've been lockstep with Trump. But look, and the American people have turned on this. And look, they don't think that if you look at the polling data, they don't trust the administration on this, right? To the earlier point. You know, this will probably end up in courts, but American people don't trust that the Trump administration will do the right thing here. And in the end, they are really, you know, trying to hide and cover up crimes against young women. And that's to. A lot of Americans are deplorable. And I think maybe this is the final piece here that sort of breaks it, but it also, you know, I've got a quote from one of my favorite movies, right. Is from the line from no country, from all Men, when with the El Paso sheriff. Right. Ari, it's probably not the one thing. It is a dismal tide, right? If you line this up with the economy, you line this up with National Guard, you line this up with ice snatching people off the street, you line this up with them blowing up boats in the Caribbean and talking about invading Venezuela and African countries. It's a dismal tide. And clearly the American people are turning hard on Trump. I would say it's a failed presidency at this time. I think over the next couple of weeks, if not month, you'll see Republicans having to cut away and try to save their majority in the House and Senate.
- [14:28]
Ari Melber
I'm reminded you say no country of when the Javier Bardem character goes into the gas station and asks the guy to bet on the coin flip. And the guy says, I gotta know what I'm betting on. And he says, just choose. I gotta know what I'm betting on. Just choose. In that dark tale, he's betting on everything. Everything but the ch. You know, what is. What is Trump betting on? That, as Margaret outlined, you have to flip the coin, as it were, and fight this hard to hide this pile of documents. What could be in there that is worth this much pain? If you are a rational actor and you're about, you know, self preservation, which Trump has, has preserved himself through many problems, it would suggest that whatever is in there is worse than this. And the number of people who are reading it that way now includes a significant number of Republicans, so. So we are in a week to change things. Cornell, briefly, Margaret, because I'm gonna. I got another guess, but go ahead to finish his house.
- [15:28]
Margaret Carlson
It's so horrendous that, you know, Trump doesn't have to be an active participant. He just has to have known about it and still hung out with this guy. And what's been out there, that awful Happy birthday and other things. It just suggests that he was in on it and you know that sort of thing with the guys owing. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing went on and that's enough in this, this is not like the Watergate break in. This is young girls that we saw pictures of this week. So anyway, I'll let you get on to.
- [16:02]
Ari Melber
I forget what you're getting on to, as you say. Well, we've got a great DOJ vet on our Epstein files emails breakdown. But as you say, journalistically, we can report Donald Trump denies knowledge of the sex crimes and the underage individuals. That's what he denies. What's new is that secret emails between Epstein and Maxwell was convicted for those crimes say that he did know. So we'll report both sides of that. Whether more evidence will reinforce the President's denial or the sex trafficker's secret conspiratorial emails that say he knew, that's the question that faces the country. It's actually a significant one. Margaret and Cornell, thanks to both of you.
- [16:46]
Margaret Carlson
Thanks, Ari.
- [16:49]
Ari Melber
Absolutely. When we come back, our special report, new Epstein emails, volume three. See you then.
- [16:58]
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Ari Melber
Play for free@chumbacasino.com let's Chumba. No purchase necessary. VGW Group voidwear prohibited by law. CTC's 21+ sponsored by Jumba Casino. New tonight we turn to our next volume in these Epstein files, the Emails that have come out are best we can tell, the kind of thing that will also be in the Epstein files, but with a lot more. This is our original reporting on those newly released emails from the deceased sex trafficker. So we turn to how Epstein tonight, who had used money and politically connected lawyers to duck the worst charges in his original sex crime craze, how he continued that playbook. And that was clear even as the legal walls closed in in those final couple years before he was arrested, things looked tough. His legal team did change over time, but he continued to keep up with the two lawyers you see here, Ken Starr and Alan Dershowitz. And they brought more than courtroom experience. They had links to the very top of the government and business elites who run large parts of this country. The new emails shed more light on how Epstein and Starr seemed very close. They met regularly. Starr was at times a professional, where Epstein had been his client, a paid lawyer. But he also was noticeably warm. We see in these emails he signed them hugs and love. A cuddly rhetorical side of Starr that was not his public Persona. He was politicos will remember the special counsel who went after President Clinton and later represented Trump in his impeachment defense. As you see here, so did Dershowitz. So think about just that before I read you more emails. Epstein managed to tap two lawyers who would later represent the very president who oversaw the DOJ that indicted Epstein. And we have a lot of contemporaneous evidence from that time that Epstein viewed part of his planned defense as having these type of elites who might prevent or corruptly intercede in the legal justice and accountability that he might otherwise face. That's, by the way, one of the reasons so many people in the public domain who haven't read every email get the gist of this and are skeptical of government elites continuing secrecy when they know the rules are not enforced equally. Now, the activities in these emails stretch beyond court and into Epstein's fixation on redeeming his public reputation. That was a theme we reported for you earlier in the week in those Bannon emails where the Trump vet was openly saying he wanted to help Epstein's media rehab tour. Well, here in the new emails I'm reading to you, Epstein links with star Trump author Michael Wolff, who had that big hit book he was writing about the Trump presidency. Starr writes with thanks to Jeffrey, I'm delighted to come into your orbit. Now then there was a public push where Epstein, who began his relationship with Starr and Dershowitz in that first Florida case, which was the first legal crack in the Epstein facade in 2006. Now, this is relevant to the later emails. They were key to securing a sweetheart plea deal back then. It was resolved a couple years after the filing around 08. And Saar was using connections to be Epstein's, quote, fixer, according to that acclaimed reporting by Miami Herald journalist Julie K. Brown. Remember, it was her expose with her team that actually sparked the new probes of Epstein. So here's a 2018 email from Starr where they are discussing trying to rebut the criticism of that, quote, sweetheart deal. They were preparing an op ed that defends Epstein and argues critiquing the resolution of a long ago case involving our former client and now friend Jeffrey Epstein. They go on to say the critique is profoundly misplaced and the draft article goes on from there. Now, Starr says former client there former. We don't have all the information on when Starr, now deceased, stopped formally representing Epstein or taking his money. It is notable that he said they had become friends. That is certainly not the case of every lawyer who is involved in defending people from heinous accusations or charges. And we can all recognize people have a right to legal defense. But as I will show you tonight, some of this went beyond that courtroom defense. And these are individuals who were clearly attractive to Epstein not just because they were accredited lawyers, but because of their long political history. The kind of people who could call the top of the DOJ or even higher, maybe pick up a call to the donors and the White House officials and even a president who runs everything. The history of power is what Epstein wanted to exploit. You ever socialized with Donald Trump in the presence of females under the age of 18? I'm going to have to assert my fifth sixth of book is amendment rights work. Were there young women in another part of the House giving massages when I wasn't around? I have no idea of that. For president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo. The president, in the course of those efforts, misused his authority and his power as president. Presidential impeachment was truly a measure of last resort when it comes to Trump. All the president's men, there were also all the sex traffickers men. That's who they represented. That's what they did. Now, I want to again emphasize that impeachment was later. Both of those lawyers were retained by President Trump after the Epstein history. But again, their representation of Epstein was public. So make of that choice what you will. And there is still judgment when you're talking about who a president hires, I'd be the first and the last to remind everyone legal counsel is a right in America, not a choice, not something to be bartered away when someone faces a big enough accusation. Everyone is entitled to that right, Mr. Epstein and Mr. Trump both. But the president's choice there may speak volumes and we will see if we get the rest of the evidence to understand who he chose. Another 2017 email from a journalist who had worked for the New York Times prior suggests Epstein hired Starr, saying he was fielding questions about why Epstein hired Starr. Meaning we again are following whether that so called friendship also still involved being paid. A New York Times 2019 op ed Notes Jeffrey Epstein's current and former lawyers signed by Starr. But he doesn't appear to be on his official defense team in that July 2019 case. That's the case brought by the Trump DOJ, where of course Epstein ultimately died in prison before trial. Dershowitz said in late 2018 he was still advising Epstein now Epstein was cultivating these relationships with people, not just again for legal skills, but with their proximity to power and specifically Trump. Starr's not accused of wrongdoing here. He has died. Alan Dershowitz has denied any wrongdoing and we played a clip of him discussing that. If there was something going on over there, he says he did not know about it. Epstein also wrote during a text exchange that CIA Director Brennan's description of Trump as drunk with power seems apt. And then he adds any thought on who he might at least listen to? Seriously? Ken Starr, Kissinger, Hannity. A reply to Epstein said Hannity maybe that sender is unknown. So Epstein has a lot of money to throw around and he figured out who the top political people are in the era that mattered. What's hanging over all of this is what was also hanging over the Bannon exchanges. That he had good reason to believe. The feds were back closing in. The SDNY was doing an investigation. It was led by Maureen Comey. Trump did not have operational control of the whole DOJ then the way he does now. But Epstein might have hoped that by asking for help. Who does Trump listen to? Or threatening not only Trump, but others. Remember Trump's own cabinet member accuses Epstein of blackmail that that might create a chorus of people who would get Trump to do something that he might perceive as in his self interest to back down. I say that as part of our reporting. It's also possible that Epstein hoped for that, just like other people hoped to get out from a bad situation. And that the government wouldn't do that. And I say that because, of course, whatever Epstein secretly tried, we'll see what else we learn in the files. The Trump DOJ under Barr and the SDNY did indict him. Now, here's another email where you see Epstein wants advice on responding to news that the DOJ would be reviewing the old plea deal. Quote, continue to ignore Ann Coulter handy attack op ed, not my skill set. He's asking, what about the penning something? It's a word there that we don't know who he might mean. Something that suggests indignation and lays out some of the facts. And then you have Bannon, who we've been seeing advise him on the media side, says, well, that drives it a week. Epstein bemoaned how Senator Sasse, I should say Ben Sasse, pardon me, called him a, quote, child rapist. What about Ken talking directly to him? We believe by inference that would be this Ken Starr, Bannon says won't help. But yes, Epstein was worried about how MAGA and prominent people were identifying him this way, which would of course not help his argument that somehow the DOJ should back down under Trump. He was scrambling for rehab. And when Bannon was advising him, we have a Trump official there or ex Trump official who clearly was trying to help. There's also some evidence that consultants, as we reported, wanted to distort what would be the actual results from reality. And Google, of course, Google's debatable, but it's a place people look. They were trying to strengthen other friendly websites they call assets and push down the reports of his factual sex crime conviction. Starr was involved in a 2018 Epstein exchange where there was a text to an associate considering op ed by Starr and Dershowitz Law review article will hire pr. Have to think with the group on the way forward. That is context for Starr sending the draft op ed I mentioned at the top. It defends Epstein at his request. Indeed, the question about the friend reference is was Starr having benefited in the past or recently from payment by Epstein? Was he trying to somehow use more credibility to claim this was a, you know, view of a friend rather than paid work? And there is a PR expert named Matthew Hiltzik in these emails who says, think there should be a line in there somewhere which clearly confirms that JE presumably Epstein, his initials, understands and recognizes that he did something wrong. Imagine that. And I don't mean to laugh like it's funny, more like it's sad that it took the PR person to tell all these other guys, hey, do we ever want to mention he knows it was wrong. Epstein and Starr discussed Trump's involvement in the Mueller probe. Russian interference. Epstein telling a associate who's not named here that he spent the morning with Starr. The person asked, how bad is shape? Does he think DJT is in? Epstein recounts. Starr told him Mueller's case isn't strong enough. That's an interesting view from someone who of course had been a special counsel himself. A rarefied group, he argues, no evidence of corruption. Person replies epic. Trump clear on Mueller. If that's the case again, we're seeing deep inside the way these people communicate in ways we never normally would. If any three of these emails leaked out of the blue, it'd be front page New York Times. When 20,000 leak, it's hard to keep track of them all, Epstein replies. The issues will be the related financial ones. Trump, of course, has faced questions and legal cases about how he's handled finances the better part of his career. Some involved allegations of civil fraud. That case on appeal. The communication continued even when the feds closed in months. Before the arrest that would lead to his in custody death, Epstein sent his legal team and Starr this link to a Miami Herald video of Bill Barr, who was going to be potentially Attorney general, who was saying in public he would look into the handling of the Epstein case. Now, knowing what we know about Epstein, that fits his M.O. of trying to use powerful people, not just to get his case heard or get an op ed published or have a lawyer defend him in court, which as I mentioned, is his legal right. No, it was the building combined with allegations of blackmail that Pam Bondi said she's not going to look into. Of a larger question that haunts obviously those officials I mentioned, but also past administrations, people in both parties of whether beyond his legal right for representation, there was interference, malfeasance or threats to try to get the feds to back off him. Like a lot of this story, we end with the obvious questions. Is that part of why someone who faced so much overwhelming evidence got off for so long? Well, we have some special guests on this and other topics coming up. My exclusive with a Trump DOJ vet next, extra value meals are back for just $5. 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- [33:21]
Ari Melber
Trump lost the Epstein files clash this week. Now Congress, on an overwhelming basis, is forcing the DOJ to release the files with a deadline. There are broader questions about the DoJ's loss of independence and credibility with Trump doing in the second term that which he was often stopped in the first term. Career loyals and professionals have protested at times, have worked up to the point where they say they have had to stop because they can't lose their law license or lie to court. Others ousted, fired en masse. With all that in mind, we turn to a special guest, Justice Department attorney Mike Romano, a member of the Public Integrity Section. He prosecuted the January 6th cases.
- [34:00]
Mike Romano
Welcome to thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.
- [34:05]
Ari Melber
Great to have you. It seems that the DOJ has been in the eye of the storm in both Trump terms, but he's pushed it farther this time, gotten away with more. What is your view of this Epstein issue? And the DOJ was supposed to enforce the law and also uphold the law, so how they should comply in good faith and the wider problems over there under Trump this term? Sure.
- [34:30]
Mike Romano
As far as the Epstein issue, this is certainly the first time in my career and I had worked in the DOJ for approaching 18 years before I left where I've seen something like this. Congress ordering the release of investigative files. I would certainly hope that that leads to a full accounting and a full understanding of what went on in the Epstein investigations. But I, I, you know, don't know how much we should trust what the administration will release more broadly. It's a hard time for folks at the Justice Department, I'm sure. Like you mentioned, it has been hard for months. I think you're right that they are in the eye of the storm.
- [35:12]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Well, Mr. Ronno, I want to play. I want to show some of the redaction history. This wouldn't be the first administration to. To. To have an over broad redaction view of it. In all. In all history, we pulled some headlines. The DOJ had a Freedom of Information request in 2015, and it was a completely redacted document they handed back. You get into intel and nsa, it's even worse. The CIA, faced with real allegations about the torture history or abuse of detainees, redacted from the torture report. In a lighter note, we don't know what they'll do with Epstein, but we're seeing these jokes online and memes about, oh, sure, they're gonna redact it to the point that it just says, like here, Trump's innocent and smart. It's kind of a joke on the era we're in. Your thoughts on the limits of that legally? Because if they over redact to an extreme degree, they could then extend the clash and ultimately lose in court. No.
- [36:11]
Mike Romano
Yeah, I think there's a risk of that. This isn't an area where I have a lot of expertise myself. I haven't had cases where this has happened. Like I said, this is fairly unique. But I would think the. The risk is given the overwhelming vote in Congress on release, that, you know, the administration wouldn't want to drag this out further, wouldn't want to draw more attention. So it's a open question, I suppose, whether strategically they try to redact too much or whether they try to dump information and hope that it's hard to make sense of.
- [36:48]
Ari Melber
Trump is publicly demanding the DOJ indict opponents, sort of create cases, and they've started doing it. Have you ever seen anything like that prior in your time there, and is that okay?
- [37:00]
Mike Romano
It's definitely not okay. I haven't seen anything like it in my time there. I have never seen a president order a prosecution of a political opponent, nor have I seen DOJ prosecute anybody because they're out of favor with the President. It's just completely unlike anything I've ever experienced.
- [37:20]
Ari Melber
Hmm. And what do you think the people left at DOJ should do? There's a lot of coverage of ERIS Revenue and other individuals who had defended Trump policies all through the first term, by the way. But they reached their breaking point when they said they were asked to lie in court.
- [37:37]
Mike Romano
Yeah, it's a hard question. I have a lot of friends and former coworkers who are still working there. And I think there's value to them staying, continuing to do their jobs, doing their jobs the right way. You know, court cases need to go forward. There are important cases where crimes have been committed, convicted or committed. I'm sorry. And the community needs to be protected. Crimes need to be prosecuted. But it's, it's a hard environment to be in. I've also known people who have been fired for no reason who the administration has targeted because of their perceived ideology or their perceived sympathies to one party or another. I know folks have been put in positions where they're asked to do unethical things. And that's been really hard to watch. So I don't fault anybody who stays. And I certainly understand the desire to stay and try to be a force for good. But it's increasingly a hard job to stay in for a lot of people, I'm sure.
- [38:46]
Ari Melber
Yeah, Understood. Mike Ramono, thank you very much for joining us. Interesting to get your experience having been at the DOJ for so long during these times. I appreciate it. I'll tell folks that. Coming up, we look at a wider vantage point at why Epstein has so upended the Trump presidency and how culture and humor are giving him a hard time to boot. Politics, like life, can be unpredictable and it can change fast. Consider how quickly we went from Trump is all powerful and might just end democracy as we know it and no one will stand up to him over anything. To this worst month of his second term, battered by those massive no Kings protests. Remember the election defeats that Trump faced with his party just a few weeks ago. And now the Epstein scandal hitting an all time fever pitch. It's played out before our eyes.
- [39:41]
Commercial Announcer
Where the Democrats just routed the Republicans everywhere and every way in every state where there were elections, Americans just held one of the biggest protests in American history, bolstering the Democrats in this fight, telling them to fight harder, to not give in. The huge 7 million strong no Kings protests against Donald Trump last month, one of the largest days of protest in US History. Democrats and critics of this president of all stripes, they've got more power and more momentum than they've had at any point since Trump returned to the White House.
- [40:10]
Ari Melber
There is a revolt against Trumpism. I think Democrats have momentum, understand this was about affordability. It was a big issue. And you know, the economy, stupid.
- [40:19]
Margaret Carlson
Well, I think it speaks to how.
- [40:21]
Ari Melber
Far people, everyday people have been pushed in this economy and in this environment.
- [40:26]
Margaret Carlson
We have record high levels of young.
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Ari Melber
People that are unemployed, of people who.
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Margaret Carlson
Are unemployed who are being paid very.
- [40:34]
Ari Melber
Low wages and can't afford life.
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Margaret Carlson
And so I think people are receptive to a new path and a new story.
- [40:40]
Commercial Announcer
It's not like Trump, in the wake of that election disaster for Republicans last week, it's not like he took great steps to try to repair his image. Him sort of doing this Marie Antoinette, let them eat cake vibe hasn't really been working with him, with American voters. He's not taking any steps at all to improve that. I mean, Trump's approval ratings are as bad as they've ever been. We got Trump flying out of Washington again at the end of last week to go to yet another weird party at his gold mansion in Florida. And this one didn't have the Great Gatsby Roaring 20s theme that the last one had, but it did have synchronized swimmers. Synchronized swimmers for Donald Trump's amusement, dressed in American flag swimsuits, expertly splishing around patriotic music for him while his administration at that moment was rushing to the United States Supreme Court to get the court's help in their quest to not pay for food stamps anymore.
- [41:37]
Ari Melber
I think corruption and cruelty also had a lot to do with this. I think it was just a revulsion. I think people saw the gratuitous cruelty from Rachel to Carville. It's a lot. And you can see how hard it is hitting Trump gonna fit in a break. And when we come back, we are gonna look at how the Epstein story is so much broader than the news, which complicates Trump's ability to keep hiding. Turn on the news, It's Epstein. Turn on C Span to the house floor. It's Epstein. Turn on late night. It's Epstein. Open your phone, it's Epstein. Social media. It's Epstein. Viral memes, articles, culture jokes, TikTok. This has been everywhere, which is why we invited the great Patton Oswald to discuss how Epstein is eating the culture. Take a listen. This is like this really creepy reverse version of Truman Capote's black and white ball of like, I really hope I don't make this list. Release the list. Whoever's on the list, they should go to jail. I don't fly a Clinton flag off the back of my truck. I'm okay with him going to jail. If warranted. If warranted, yes.
- [42:54]
Cornell Belcher
Who?
- [42:55]
Ari Melber
Who is whoever? If people went to that island, they should be in jail. I don't know why people are arguing that. This is the most demented Advent calendar I've ever seen, where every day we just, like, open another window of just pure dark chocolate horror every single day. And then I just hope that the 25th is a big plump trump. Patton has poetic license to make his jokes, but he made a lot of good points. We will be right back. Hope you had a good week. If you are looking for more tomorrow, you can always catch the beat Weekend. We have highlights, key interviews I mentioned Patton, Oswald and other fun things that you can catch up on that you might have missed. Tomorrow, 4pm Eastern. That does it for us.
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Cornell Belcher
I'm in.
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