← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Epstein Files Expose First Trump Admin For Shredding Jail Docs
00:41:59
Congress is searching for answers as questions mount surrounding Jeffrey Epstein’s death in jail. It follows a bombshell report revealing that "bags" of documents were shredded and thrown away at the jail just days after Epstein died. The Miami Herald’s Julie K. Brown, the journalist who broke the story, joins MS NOW’s Ari Melber.
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- [00:00]
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Ari Melber
Welcome to the beat, everyone. I'm Ari Melber. We got legal news today. A landmark verdict for big tech accountability. Google as well as Facebook's parent company actually held liable today for social media addiction for harming youth. This is something you talk about all the time, maybe with your friends and family. We actually have news on it tonight. We have that verdict for you tonight. It relates to politics, if we're ever going to deal with big tech. But it's also just a story about how we live. So I invite you to say that's coming up later. Also, big booking, the journalist who broke the story about how the first Trump administration was caught shredding documents at the Epstein jail days after Epstein's death. And covering it up, Julie K. Brown. She is the crucial long term Epstein journalist. She broke that early Miami Herald story that we've referenced on our air. She's here tonight. So I'm really happy to be honest that we have her on the program. I encourage you to stay for that. But that's not all. Those are just previews of upcoming segments. We begin with the top story, which is actually in politics. More signs of panic for the Republicans in the midterms. Democrats flipping another red seat blue overnight. And this one hits MAGA hard because it's in a race in Trump's backyard. The actual Mar A Lago district. Democrats taking that Florida state House seat and a win that goes beyond the symbolism of a Democrat now representing the architecture. The opulence of the mansion you see here whether that's your, your type of building or not. Not just that, but like many parts of Florida, this is a traditionally red area. Trump carried it by 11 points in his last race in 2024. Of course, now Democrats have reversed that with Emily Gregory winning this special election. Another sign the winds may be shifting, that Democrats have enthusiasm. Of course, national races don't turn on a local race. And if this was just a random local race and someone was telling you about it, your friend or your news anchor, you might say, okay, but that's like one local race, right? If it were just one data point, well, that would be that. But you see where I'm going. It's actually not just that. It is the latest data point in a string of data points of Democratic wins since Trump returned to office last January. Democrats won three high profile races. The winner of the New York City mayoral.
- [03:23]
Morris Katz
There you go.
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Ari Melber
Will be Zoran Mamdani. Mikey Sherrill will be elected the next governor of New Jersey.
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Alex Wagner
In a major upset, Democrats flipped a Lancaster County Senate seat in a district that President Trump easily won.
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Julie K. Brown
Susan Crawford beating conservative Brad Schimmel.
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Alex Wagner
Democrats have flipped a state House seat
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Automobile Advertiser
in the closely watched election in Iowa.
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Renee Diresta
Democrats flipping a seat in the state Sen. Senate.
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Ari Melber
Emily Gregory, the Democrat who has upset John Maples, the Republican. There you go. Including the reporting of that last night in our Ms. Now coverage. Add that to a list of 30 seats Democrats have flipped across 10 states. These are the places where voting has, of course, occurred. We haven't yet got to the midterms. Trump actually faces worse dynamics in other parts of the country that of course haven't held special elections yet. Here is his terrible crashing approval or of course, it's two sides of the coin. 62% of Americans disapprove. I'm gonna leave this up for a second because if you're one of those people who watched the November election last time and said, wait, what? This is what people think. Or you walk around now and hear people defend Trump and you say, wait, how much of the country is this? It ain't much of the country anymore. If you oppose Donald Trump, if you disapprove of his second term, for whatever your reasons, you are in the large majority, 62%. This is the broader revolt against Trump's second term. If there is a mistake that some D.C. democrats and some liberals have made in the past, it has been to assume too much about everyone agreeing with them about everything. There are plenty of good faith places to disagree. And if you watch this show you know, I believe and respectfully disagree with folks around the country. So it's not that everyone was always agreeing on this or that anyone who ever voted for Trump is automatically wrong, evil, or anything else. They may have had their reasons. They may have been lied to if they voted for lower prices. A lot of them feel lied to. But right now, there is something larger happening. That 62%, what in Congress would be called a super majority of people saying no to the second term, no to the ICE killings, no to the Iran war. I could go on, but you watch the news, so you're probably informed about some of the issues I'm mentioning that people disagree with this president on. Then you have the surging no Kings activism. More protests this weekend. Organizers say it could be the largest anti Trump demonstrations to date. And as we try to keep an eye on every which way everybody communicates and processes information these days, it's not just on cable news, it's not just on podcasts. We have a wired electorate weighing in online.
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Morris Katz
How serious is the gas pump now
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Ari Melber
is the way I want to start
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Julie K. Brown
asking everybody, are you happy with your choices?
- [06:12]
Ari Melber
I do regret my vote.
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Alex Wagner
A billion dollars a day almost is
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Julie K. Brown
being spent to rain death and destruction onto random civilians in the Middle east
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Renee Diresta
with my tax dollars. So how are we, the people that voted for Donald Trump, supposed to continue
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Julie K. Brown
to support him when his name has
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Renee Diresta
been mentioned 5,000 times in these files?
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Ari Melber
They are paying for this war with your health care, with your grandmother's insulin. That's what people are weighing in. That's the larger data. And I want to bring in two special guests as we really get into the politics right now. Alex Wagner, Ms. Now senior political analyst. She's the host of A Runaway country on Crooked Media. And Morris Katz, making his beat debut. A political strategist deemed so important, at least in New York politics at a young age, that he got a New York Times profile. He worked for the victorious Mom Donny campaign. Boom with the selfie. Welcome to both of you.
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Morris Katz
Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
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Alex Wagner
I'm thrilled to be here with both of you guys.
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Ari Melber
Wonderful. Alex. We've covered some elections together.
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Alex Wagner
Yeah, we have.
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Ari Melber
I make the point about data over anecdote.
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Alex Wagner
Yeah, yeah.
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Ari Melber
And the data is running against Trump.
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Alex Wagner
Yes. Perhaps because he's whiffed the only thing he was entrusted to manage, which is the American economy and, well, I would say secondarily not getting involved in foreign adventurism. And what is he doing, Ari, but raising prices on Americans, overseeing a spiraling Gas shortage with global repercussions that even if he ended the war tomorrow, could keep prices high for the next six months and raising prices on basic items, household items, groceries. And then, of course, I mean, we don't even, we're not even getting into the stock market. And what he's doing to sort of global financial stability, it's a colossal goat rodeo, which is probably the only term I can use on this, a goat rodeo.
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Julie K. Brown
You know what I mean?
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Alex Wagner
Like, it's just. Is it any wonder that two out of three Americans are saying, nuh, I don't want another serving of this? I mean, yes, before, in the before times, I think there was some trepidation around whether Trump's promises to the public were really going to be rejected in the way that those who like democracy thought they would. They might be.
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Renee Diresta
This is, this is.
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Alex Wagner
These are just the cold, hard facts of, of leadership and the policies of the President trickling down to the kitchen tables and family conversations of every single American in this country.
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Ari Melber
Yeah. And that's what a lot of folks think. Even in a district that was so red went blue. So let's, for your reaction, let's listen to Emily Gregory last night.
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Renee Diresta
I think we've learned over the last several years that no one is coming to save us. We have to save ourselves. So I might have done some crazy calculus to decide that this was a flip opportunity, but it was and we did it. So my math worked.
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Alex Wagner
Her mouth worked. I mean, big time. She won by two points. But I think Mike Caruso, who had the seat before her, the Republican, won it by 19 points. That's a 21 point swing. And then you look at, I mean, this is Morris's bread and butter, not to get ahead of whatever you're going to say, but in Texas, where they flipped a state Senate seat in a district that Trump won by double digits, that was a 31 point swing. If you map those margins onto Congress, professional races around the country, and I don't like being the math person on this, nor do I like being the predictor.
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Ari Melber
Well, somebody's got to do it.
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Alex Wagner
Somebody's got to do it. And I'm just going to say, if those margins translate to the midterms in November, that could be a gain of like, that could be a 60 to 70 seat margin for Democrats in the House. Nobody attach your hopes and dreams to that. But that's, that's the potential math. Those are the potential mathematical implications of what we're seeing, which is a resounding rejection of President Trump. And his party.
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Ari Melber
Yeah, Alex mentions bread and butter. Yeah, I mean, well, hold on, here comes the question. The price of bread and butter is up. And you worked for a candidate in New York who, like Emily Gregory, might have not been widely known at the beginning. I mean, teach us or explain to us what you guys did in politics where instead of just saying against Trump, against Trump, against Trump, which is obviously fueling turnout, you also say, wait, I'm gonna bring the price of bread and butter down. See what, see what happened there.
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Alex Wagner
Just continuing the line back over to Morris.
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Morris Katz
I think that, you know, Alex is absolutely right about the situation the President has put himself in. He's shown that he can't accomplish any of the things he set out to accomplish. But on top of that, Democrats, the root causes that led to him winning still exist. People are still upset about a status quo that's not working for them, about an affordability crisis. And I think what the mayor did incredibly well is address not just the crisis, but also who's responsible for creating this. Because Trump is not the end all, be all villain. He's a symptom of a broader economic system that's broken, a democracy that's on the brink and deeply, deeply corrupt. And I think we need Democrats who don't just run against Trump, but run against the system that created Trump. It's what the Mayor did. It's why you saw so much momentum, so many new voters come off the sidelines and a lot of persuasion of people who'd been written off of having left the party.
- [11:13]
Ari Melber
So say more about that because what you're also reminding everyone is the old model of left and right and the partisan lens of DC May not even apply to A, a lot of voters who are disaffected. So they're looking beyond the parties and B, to young people, which I think you know more about than me.
- [11:32]
Alex Wagner
I mean, speak for yourself, but okay,
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Ari Melber
we're very youthful, that we heard from young people saying, yeah, yeah, no, we know about the Trump problem. They were available up for grabs voters. But you're saying they wanted, they wanted a larger argument.
- [11:47]
Morris Katz
I mean, I think like Alex mentioned the 60 to 70, not to cite your made up math here, but I think that should be what we're shooting for. Democrats can just kind of check all the basic right boxes, run against Donald Trump and win back a majority. We have an opportunity to win a once in a generation majority. And that's because the kind of ideological spectrum as it's existed has fundamentally changed. You have a real, like James Tariko talks about this really compellingly. Top verse, bottom politics of just a 99% that is livid. The 1%, the Epstein class, whatever you want to call it, is getting to play a different set of rules. Well, everyone else is living lives that are far worse than their parents than even a decade ago. And if Democrats run off of that, it speaks to young people who don't see a future and are scared. It speaks to seniors who are no longer able to retire with dignity. It builds a new coalition. I think if Democrats want To reach that 70 seat threshold, we need to be pursuing that.
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Alex Wagner
I just, I mean, I, I'm in agreement with the sort of, the broader context of all of this, but like, let us not, let us not let Trump off the hook in his profound and spectacular mismanagement of every single situation he's been entrusted with. This is a man who enters a war of choice with no idea about the potential global repercussions of what he's doing, and now has the attention span of a horse fly and has to be presented with information relating to the war he entered this country into with two minute video clips, montages of stuff getting blown up because it's the only way to hold his attention, according to reporting we have today from NBC News. I mean, this man is profoundly unfit for office. And yes, while it is, while the big moment is about sort of rethinking the response to that and what it means to be a resistant to that both person and party, it is also about holding accountable the people that have put this idiot in charge. There is no other word for what he's doing. The sort of economic corruption is its own piece, but you could say that's part of a calculated effort made on the part of the Republicans to deny the middle and the working class their due. But the profound mismanagement, the comic inability to manage one of the biggest decisions a president makes, sure, take the country to war, is not something that should be brushed aside.
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Ari Melber
So let's take the polling on the point you're making because we're often told we're this 5050 country, and maybe we were recently because the 24 race when it was all in was a point and a half apart between Harris and Trump. And yet I just showed the 60 plus percent disapproval overall. That's just second term. Then you go to Iran, which people did not know when they started this year that we would be doing a new Middle east war. 59% roughly gone too far. 62% opposed the escalation which they are now threatening Now, Morris can tell you how this works. The plus or minus, right? Plus or minus. Couple points. This is the 60% nation, Alex, on the second term, writ large on Iran, which is the big issue right now. And they don't have a good off ramp. We've had generals and experts and diplomats on this program and others on Ms. Now who are all saying your oil situation is worse than when you started. Yes, but you can't just back away. So when you look at that, talk to me about this 60% nation.
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Alex Wagner
Well, I think those numbers could get worse. I mean, I'm not an oil expert, though. I'm gonna play one right now on television. When you stop production, you can't just get this stuff back online the next day after they come to a power sharing agreement over the Strait of Hormuz, which, by the way, is never gonna happen. I mean, gas prices could continue to climb throughout the summer. Nothing is immediate. You know, Trump is used to this kind of posture of like, I can say one thing one day and say another thing the next, and everybody's just going to sort of react accordingly. These are global energy markets and he has done something incredibly destabilizing, and the American public will pay for that choice for months. No matter. Even if Trump got the outcome he wanted in the interim. Ari, there is no off ramp. Like, all we know from Trump is that the White House is floating ideals for ideas for a peace proposal. The Iranians who appear to have the upper hand here are like, yeah, no, we don't like any of that. And then Trump's sort of like, I guess the big shiny object he trots out is a present that he was given by an unnamed source, which signals that the negotiations are going in the right direction. Was that a dozen donuts? What was it? What was the present? Who are you talking to? What is even happening? Do you know what I mean? Like. And the cascade of bad decision making does unfortunately not end at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. It ends with the American public going to go try to take their kids on vacation, try and take a road trip, fill their gas tanks up, pay for groceries.
- [16:26]
Ari Melber
No, all the, all the.
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Alex Wagner
The payment is ours.
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Ari Melber
And we have Wall street analysts saying that the energy crisis could become an actual full blown recession. It could change interest rates, et cetera. Morris, back in my day, this is what we called spitting hot fire. She just lays it all out, always from Alex. I've got a break. Our guest day. Our shortest break's 90 seconds. When we come back, I'm actually going to look at you you called him the I word. You said he's an idiot. We actually have DOJ information on the motive for Trump to do what many thought was not only idiotic, but criminal, stealing these classified documents. Interesting development when we're back in 90 seconds. Turning to another big story we haven't hit yet. Congress has new Justice Department documents that suggest a possible motive and potential criminal mindset for one of Trump's greatest, sloppiest and really most costly mistakes when he was caught red handed with these pilfered classified documents. That is part of why Donald Trump became the first president ever indicted. It also cost him a lot. Even if, as we know, the Supreme Court ultimately delayed any trial to have a reckoning on this case. We know he had stolen documents at home. I'm showing them to you in all fairness, because he didn't go to trial, he's still legally presumed innocent in this case with overwhelming evidence. Well, tonight we have Ms. Now reporting about what the DOJ saw here under Jack Smith, who was the, of course, independent prosecutor investigating Trump. His investigators considered a likely motive was Trump viewed those US Secrets as relevant to his business interests to potentially profiting off the job. Congress got this evidence from doj. It comes amid corruption scandals swirling around the Trump White House and his family. Scrutiny on these foreign gifts. The luxury jet from Qatar, which could become a Trump used plane during and after his presidency. A Saudi royal who reportedly invested in a Trump family company days before the inauguration. The Trump family now has profited not to the tune of millions or a 'hundred million, but $4 billion, according to new Yorker Accounting. Much of this is seen as irregular, non legitimate business at a minimum, meaning it's not money they would otherwise make. If there's ever an independent special counsel probe, you'd have to look into how much of it might actually be criminal bribery. President has a lot of immunity. His children and others don't. Morris and Alex are back with us.
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Alex Wagner
Alex, I feel like if you need it, there's a disagreement, I think in some progressive circles about, like how to refer to Trump and his cronies. Is it the Epstein class? Is it the Epstein administration? It's obviously the Epstein part of that moniker isn't just about Jeffrey Epstein. It's about the central issue of corruption, which is so profound and also naked in the, I don't mean that in a, in the literal sense, but the idea that you can, you know, curry favor with this president by paying for the remodeling of the West Wing or paying for donating to the ARC to Trump or lining the pockets of Jared Kushner. Self enrichment has always been the name of the game with this man. And some part of me, when I read this extraordinary reporting by Carol Lennig and Jackie Alemany, some part of me thought was a bit wistful. Like, this was back in the day when he was trying to cover up the corruption and sort of secret away the files that would have helped his businesses. Now it's just all out in the open.
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Ari Melber
Yeah, that's a fair distinction.
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Alex Wagner
But if we talk about the thing that's bringing down Trump, I mean, we spent the first segment talking about the ineptitude at its essence. It's about the corruption, that the only things that matter in this world are the nice things for him. And everybody else is basically screwed. Whether that's, you know, hiding files in the Epstein case that could incriminate his lackeys, stooges and allies. The DOJ still is not pursuing any of the people named in the Epstein files. Whether it's, you know, getting rid of health care subsidies that have helped working class and middle class Americans afford necessary health care, whether it's the war in Iran, which is a basically an ego exercise, but as, again, what the American public is going to pay for. It's all about doing himself a favor and forgetting everybody else and leaving them behind. And that's why, you know, this story is just further proof that the only person the guy in the White House cares about is the guy in the Mirror.
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Ari Melber
Boris.
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Morris Katz
I mean, I think it's. This is not to play the role you played in the previous segment, but I think we shouldn't become numb to the degree that if any other moment in American history, this story would be like the COVID of every single newspaper leading every single show in the nation, and there'd be impeachment hearings tomorrow. Yet we've become numb to it under the Trump administration.
- [21:01]
Ari Melber
You think Democrats should impeach on this type of stuff if they get to Congress?
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Morris Katz
I think we should run on this type of stuff because I think, to Alex's point, And yet.
- [21:07]
Ari Melber
And yet the question remains, you think they should impeach on this?
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Morris Katz
I think that impeachment isn't the focus. I think it should be. Are we talking about it or not? Like, I think, I'm not in the Senate. I'm not interested in playing the impeachment numbers game.
- [21:19]
Ari Melber
See, political operative. You got political operative. No, I get it.
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Alex Wagner
Not taking the bait.
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Morris Katz
But I think it's connected to Iran. It's connected to all these things. It's a cover up over corruption. Corruption, self enrichment at the expense of other people. And it's why you're seeing those favorability numbers where they are.
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Alex Wagner
He doesn't care. You know, he doesn't care. And what's ironic about this reporting is the only reason we know about it because by the way, he has. His corruption extends to the bench. The reason we don't have report too from Jack Smith in his investigation is because his puppet, his federal, Federal district court puppet, Judge Aileen Cannon basically shut down the release of them of that and said we're. That's never going to see the light of day. The reason we have this information is because the House Republican Conference is tenacious in its desire to prosecute Jack Smith and inadvertently released information, this information in what is called a progress memo. I'm not a lawyer, but this was never supposed to see that. They did not realize that which they were sitting upon. Which is the motive for Trump squirreling away documents down at Mar A Lago. This is why he didn't want. He wanted to take away the good documents that were gonna help him and his family get richer. And the fools in the House Republican Conference inadvertently released it. And now it is up to Democrats in Congress to figure out what to do about it.
- [22:36]
Ari Melber
No, it's. And you're really taking people behind the scenes of wait. People sometimes are cynical. Oh, we're only learning about this because of somebody's agenda. No, sometimes in the same way that Trump got caught, there's a sloppiness to the effort. These are not all ace professional players. When we're seeing.
- [22:50]
Alex Wagner
That's an understatement.
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Ari Melber
I really enjoyed having both of you here. This is Morris's debut, your beat debut. Your former boss in the campaign now Mayor Mamdani, he recently put out his top five rappers very controversial list. Did you follow that?
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Morris Katz
I followed it vaguely.
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Ari Melber
Vaguely, vaguely. You're busy.
- [23:09]
Morris Katz
Yeah. That was not on the top of our.
- [23:10]
Ari Melber
Without getting deep into it, I'm sure you.
- [23:13]
Morris Katz
I'm sensing your feelings.
- [23:14]
Ari Melber
Well, no, I'm gonna, I'm call it like it is. And he was at this table during the campaign and we had an election eve interview. We talked about 50 Cent and other things. It was a very politically correct list and it leaned towards socially conscious. Just leaned towards social.
- [23:28]
Alex Wagner
Are you gonna name it?
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Ari Melber
Yeah, it had like Common and Lupe fiasco and it was like. My point being it was very socially conscious. It left off Tupac. It felt like you're gonna have to
- [23:39]
Morris Katz
take this to the mayor. I Didn't realize it felt.
- [23:41]
Ari Melber
No, I'm, I don't know you followed or not. I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but it felt a little PC like, let me pick the safest artist. Does that make sense?
- [23:48]
Alex Wagner
Don't do that to Common.
- [23:48]
Morris Katz
I think the mayor's don't do that.
- [23:51]
Ari Melber
What would you like to say about Common?
- [23:53]
Morris Katz
Listen, what's your top five list? Alex?
- [23:54]
Alex Wagner
Oh, my God. You can't ask me.
- [23:55]
Ari Melber
No, but defend Common. No, I'm not putting her on the spot.
- [23:57]
Alex Wagner
You want to defend Common sense, as I call him, is an art like an a decade multi platinum, I believe.
- [24:03]
Ari Melber
We love Common.
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Alex Wagner
Yeah, we love Common.
- [24:05]
Ari Melber
But very friendly.
- [24:06]
Alex Wagner
And Lupe Fiasco is someone who put him on the COVID of the music magazine that I used to edit has, you know, a lot to say. I like that he went outside the box. And maybe, just maybe, Ari, the world of rap and hip hop needs lots of voices at the table.
- [24:19]
Ari Melber
Oh, I like that you get the final word.
- [24:22]
Morris Katz
I'll just say, you know, the mayor's laser focused on building out a rap list that satisfies you and driving down the cost of living in the city.
- [24:29]
Ari Melber
There we go. Well, hov said, what'd he say? He said
- [24:36]
Alex Wagner
a lot of things.
- [24:37]
Ari Melber
Truthfully, I want to rhyme like Common Sense. They gave me five mics. I ain't been rhyming like Common Sense. And that's a play ongoing, more commercial than conscious.
- [24:51]
Morris Katz
Well done.
- [24:51]
Ari Melber
Thanks, Ken. Thanks both of you for being here. We got that landmark verdict coming up against these big tech companies, some of them in bed with Trump. They're going to be paying a lot. This is a brand new story so I know you haven't heard it yet. That's next. Or I should say that's coming up tonight. We also have the Epstein fallout with Julie K. Brown here. That's next. See you soon.
- [25:12]
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- [26:13]
Ari Melber
Hey guys.
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- [26:46]
Ari Melber
Congress is considering moving forward on many aspects of the Epstein probe and that includes these questions around his death and the aftermath. There are reports about suspicious activities in the Trump DOJ overseen jail where Epstein was found. Congress now wants a key prison guard who was once indicted to have a knoll and is considered the last person known to see Epstein to have a private interview. Now they asked her to come in as soon as tomorrow. We're now told the interview is postponed, but the panel wants to work with her attorney to get her testimony. All of this comes amid a bombshell report based on Epstein files documentation from the Miami Herald's Julie K. Brown and her team that revealed bags of of documents which were suspiciously shredded and discarded of out of the Epstein jail days after he died. This was so concerning that there were immediate tips and sort of watchdog warnings including a corrections officer calling the FBI saying they'd never seen that amount of bags shredded. Days later another officer wrote to investigators raising a similar alarm. Now we've been tracking all this for you. We have our detailed timeline which shows of course many different, different developments. But you can see and highlighted here the shredded document activity and a whistleblower alerting the FBI about it coming right there just days after he died. None of this I want you to know, and we checked this actually appears where it should in the DOJ's watchdog Inspector General report. That is a problem for the DOJ because as Brown's reporting shows, they interviewed people about this. They were on notice of it and whether they deemed it it a crime, a problem or okay, it should have fallen somewhere in that voluminous report I'm joined now by the reporter who broke the story, Julie K. Brown from the Miami Herald. Welcome back.
- [28:33]
Julie K. Brown
Thank you.
- [28:35]
Ari Melber
I want to get to the conspicuous absence of that information in what was supposed to be a watchdog report. But first, tell us what your reporting found and any development since then since you broke the story.
- [28:48]
Julie K. Brown
Well, these were documents. We really don't know exactly what they were, but they were documents that were being examined by what they call this rapid response or after incident team that was put together by the Bureau of Prisons. So these were Bureau of Prisons personnel. We later, in the wake of this report, found a list of the people that were on that particular action team that came into MCC and did, you know, presumably tried to gather evidence. But what we're hearing is what they were doing was compiling papers that they were putting into a shredder. In fact, one of the guards reported that an orderly told him that the orderly was asked to help shred the documents and then take those bags outside to a dumpster by the rear gate, where a corrections officer also noted that this was kind of strange. There were so many bags at the time, they had never. One of them commented that this was a mount that they had never seen dumped out there before.
- [29:51]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And so then you go to. The doj has systems for this and your reporting. And the files which we reviewed here ourselves, show those alarms. I mentioned the reporting of this in. Someone also wrote a judge about it. There was a concern that the problem was coming from within the government. So what do you do? Well, you're supposed to go to the independent watchdogs, and that's one of the ways. And so is it a problem that the Inspector General's office spent years looking at this? We know they interviewed people about it, so they were aware of it and they didn't mention it at all in their report?
- [30:25]
Julie K. Brown
Yeah, they pretty much discounted it. And another reason why it's curious that they did discount it wasn't just. It wasn't just the reports of the shredding. The Southern District of New York prosecutors had found evidence that there were things that were missing. They were missing all the inmate counts in the days up to Epstein's death. Now, we don't know. We only have what's in the file. It's possible they found these documents, but they were saying that they. That they were missing documents. In fact, their response when they heard about this shredding was, can we go out to the dumpster and see what this stuff is? But unfortunately, they didn't act swiftly enough. So they couldn't do anything about me.
- [31:07]
Ari Melber
Let me just slow you down on that point because it's so important. You're referring to the fact that, that people who weren't on site, people at the SDNY, U.S. attorney's Office viewers will remember that's a very independent shop. Even in the first term it was clashing with Trump over various things that they said, wait, shredding bad, let's go get the material. And so what do you view as what's happening there? When now we have the greater transparency than we ever normally get. I mean, you and I, on most cases we Never get internal U.S. attorney emails about gathering evidence. I'm curious, as a, as an investigative reporter, what do you see happening there? That tension between the folks on the ground potentially doing a cover up, evidence destruction and then the U.S. attorney's folks saying, wait, can we stop that?
- [31:52]
Julie K. Brown
Well, to the U.S. attorney's Office credit, they created a file, a case number for this particular incident and they did do some interviews on this. But the FBI conducted the interviews. And when you read the interview that was conducted of the orderly who allegedly was the first to report this, it's a very strange interview. They don't say to him, look, tell us what happened. They just give him yes and no questions and you can tell he's very uncomfortable. In fact, it notes that one of the lieutenants who probably oversees him at the prison was present at this FBI interview. And he says at the end, look, I don't want any problems. I didn't see anything. I like my job here. And but it's so very clear that the way that this whole thing was set up for this interview was to sort of make the problem go away.
- [32:46]
Ari Melber
Right. I think that's a clear inference and that's why I mentioned that you see that in sort of a covering up of the COVID up, they got caught to some degree shredding the docs. But they still, and this is what people get frustrated with. Government cover ups seem to get out from under it. And then the inspector general says, well, if you mention this, it looks bad, so we're not going to mention it at all. You know, that's Michael Horowitz, the current DOJ Inspector general. Trump ousted many of them but held on to him. People can make up their own mind whether that, what that implies. But it doesn't seem like it was a thorough, honest, independent report. It was also the report that minimized the so called flash of orange that the FBI saw of a potential inmate on the loose the night before. His death doesn't mean we know where there's foul play. Could have been other problems, but I mentioned all that. And then the final question to you is this. This corrections officer who was indicted, but then the case dismissed. Now Congress says maybe they want to learn more from her. She appears in your reporting as someone who was depositing multi thousand dollar cash deposits at a bank. Was. Was flagged 12 times for suspicious activity reports. What can you tell us about that?
- [33:52]
Julie K. Brown
Well, I just filed a story, actually a new story about her. I, I dug into the files, more about her and she's actually a very interesting person. She's. She is quite educated and she comes from a. And she served in the US Army Reserves, was in active duty in Kuwait, and then she came back, you know, after her. Her assignment ended and decided to become a corrections officer. But again, you know, when we're looking at these files, we see these things like her financial records and a notation that her bank had flagged some of the cash deposits in her. In her checking accounts. So it raises questions about, okay, well, where was the cash from? Yeah, we.
- [34:38]
Ari Melber
That been accounted for in any valid way?
- [34:42]
Julie K. Brown
I'm sorry?
- [34:43]
Ari Melber
Oh, has that been accounted for in a valid way? You know she puts $5,000 cash in, right.
- [34:49]
Julie K. Brown
We don't know because the. They did a. A six hour interview of her in the OIG. The Office of the Inspector General did a six hour interview with her, but it was in 2021, which was two years after Epstein's death. And they did not ask her about any of her financial transactions.
- [35:09]
Ari Melber
Right. Which again is odd because now we know they were on notice. Some part of the government was on notice. And you have the SAR report. So again, you've been leading this from the jump, which is why we're happy to have you back. Julia K. Brown will be checking in with you again. I'm gonna fit in a break. When we come back, Zuckerberg losing that verdict. Next. Landmark ruling on social media. Today, a California jury found Google and Facebook's parent companies liable over social media addiction. Lawyers had presented that these type of platforms were designed to stoke addiction. That the companies knew they were doing this and hurting young people. They'll have to pay millions in damages. Zuckerberg was forced to testify in this very trial.
- [35:56]
Julie K. Brown
The man in charge of Facebook and Instagram will face questions under oath about whether a social media platform deliberately targets children with addictive design features, features like
- [36:06]
Ari Melber
infinite scrolls, personally tailored algorithms, and push notifications. Very combative in terms of the line of questioning between Mark Zuckerberg and the plaintiff's attorney.
- [36:16]
Renee Diresta
Within five minutes of being in there, I had counted 12 lives. They have just made choices to take profits over our children's safety. There were choices that he made.
- [36:25]
Ari Melber
A reminder that even a powerful MAGA aligned billionaire like Zuckerberg was forced under oath to answer for what his company does, including the Facebook parent company that controls Instagram as well as Google. They say they're evaluating the verdict. It's a day after Zuckerberg's company was found liable for a whopping $400 million in damages for failing to protect miners from predators. These cases are creating new precedents before our eyes. And remember, all of this is new and fast moving. The big rich tech billionaires have had a lot more of a jump because they know what they're doing and they're way ahead of Congress, regulation and perhaps the rest of the U.S. but these cases, these court cases could create new lines and precedents. Meanwhile, you have some in Congress who are pushing for stronger rules. Take Bernie Sanders, who has a brand new bill to try to deal with the AI data centers until there's better regulation, including protecting people labor rights. Long term concerns of his. And I want to show you something interesting. Sanders recently sat down with a robot, an AI agent, Claude, and used that as a kind of way to dramatize and show what he sees as the risks.
- [37:39]
Commercial Announcer
Just how much of the information that AI collects is being used and what would surprise the American people.
- [37:51]
Renee Diresta
Companies are collecting data from everywhere.
- [37:53]
Alex Wagner
Your browsing history, your location, what you
- [37:55]
Renee Diresta
buy, what you search for, even how long you pause on a web page page.
- [37:59]
Alex Wagner
What would surprise people is how little
- [38:01]
Renee Diresta
they actually consented to.
- [38:02]
Commercial Announcer
Why is all of this information being collected?
- [38:06]
Ari Melber
What's the goal here?
- [38:09]
Renee Diresta
Money, Senator. It's fundamentally about profit.
- [38:15]
Ari Melber
Money, Senator. That's a bit of a version of HAL for those who get the Space Odyssey reference, but in our current runaway capitalism era. And yet this comes amidst these victories in court. New today I have a special guest and I'm going to show you Melania's robot problem at the White House next.
- [38:41]
Renee Diresta
Thank you first lady Melania Trump for inviting me to the White House. Fair to state American made humanoid guest in the White House throughout today.
- [38:55]
Ari Melber
This was the scene today at the White House. You're watching Melania Trump. You just heard her welcome what she called her first American made humanoid guest at the White House. This is not the future. This is now. Your government, your tax dollars. A little eerie. You'll see her allow the robot to go first here. Humanoid walks out Breaks right First lady continues down the path. They could not have predicted or known that this would come on the very day that folks who are more concerned and critical of this same big tech, highly profitable technology would win a big judgment against Google and the Facebook company. Meta. I'm joined now by Renee Diresta, Georgetown professor. Focuses on tech and disinfo the offer of invisible people who turn lies into reality. A factual warning about some of what's happening in social media. Welcome.
- [39:54]
Renee Diresta
Thanks for having me.
- [39:55]
Ari Melber
We'll get to the ruling, but first I'm gonna put that video back up. Any thoughts on this? This is today, this is now.
- [40:02]
Renee Diresta
This White House stuff, I was watching it when I was waiting for you to bring me on, and it reminded me of I had a Sony robot dog when I was in college, you know, the ibog. I don't know how many people remember that, but used to chase a little pink ball around. It was sort of the early days of robotics. It's kind of remarkable to see the, you know, the acceleration, to watch one sort of walk into the White House here. I think the question of, you know, what it's going to be put to use for, what the. What the value that it delivers to people is really, that's ultimately the main question whenever you're dealing with a product like this.
- [40:35]
Ari Melber
And so we go from this sort of futuristic now event at the White House to the news coincidence of a rare ruling that could really put a precedent on accountability for these companies. Your response to the verdict?
- [40:51]
Renee Diresta
Yeah, it was very interesting to see. It really moved away from the idea of social media as a neutral library and into the idea of it as a defective product. The two cases, both, the one in New Mexico and then the one in Los Angeles, both emphasize. Emphasized safety, safety for children in particular. But the idea that product design was the thing that needed to be focused on. A lot of the prior cases have focused on content. You know, should a platform show you this or that, whereas this is much more getting into it almost in a model of, you know, you have a car with defective brakes. That. That was the metaphor that I was thinking of as I was looking at some of these things. The idea that product design is actually a very key component to thinking about how we engage with social media.
- [41:33]
Ari Melber
Yeah, you're saying something very clear and that seems incisive, that the misuse or spread of social media is sort of over here. But the defective product, which people understand in consumer life and the law understands you buy a lawnmower to cut grass, but then it's really hard to turn it off. And then it overheats and then it ruins other things in your garage. And you say, that's not a good lawnmower. And people, parents especially, are having that concern. Does this mean these companies could lose future care cases?
- [42:05]
Renee Diresta
Yes, it does. These two will obviously be appealed, but what you're seeing is an emphasis on specific features. In one of the cases, they were talking about things like Infinite Scroll. So when you're on your phone and it's pushing you, and when you're in your app, it's pushing you post after post after post, Is that a healthy thing for people to be engaging with the idea of autoplay, things that just turn on. When you're in this case, child goes to a platform. Right. Is that a good design decision? Is that a healthy design decision that has nothing to do with what content. It could be pushing you Disney videos all day long. It could be pushing you, you anything. You know, miss Racial, healthy things, good things. But ultimately, that idea of addiction and keeping you there is the thing that they're actually interrogating. There's a difference here that they're getting at between publishing activities, right, which is the platform doing the hosting, and then platform conduct, which is the engineering of the app and the design of the features themselves. And that's what I think you're going to see many more of these cases in the latter side.
- [42:57]
Ari Melber
I got about one minute left for you. One big tech company talked about how they view sleep. Sleep as their competitor because they want to keep people up. How important is it that the public and parents understand what the business model is here?
- [43:12]
Julie K. Brown
Yeah, I'm a mom of three.
- [43:13]
Renee Diresta
My oldest is 12. I don't let him on social media at all. I fight with him to get him off of YouTube as often as I can by, you know, monitoring how much time he uses it, trying to tell him, make good decisions. Make good decisions. But it is. Sleep really is the competition. Because sometimes you find the iPad under the pillow and you're recognizing as a parent that these are the things that you have to. That you are being asked to compete with. You're being asked to teach your children to make good decisions when in actuality, it would be much more helpful for us to be given better tools, better ways to. To sort of mitigate some of the harms ourselves.
- [43:45]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And a lot of people do feel concerned, discouraged, even hopeless. This ruling today shows one avenue of accountability. You've been thinking about these issues deeply. Renee Diresta. Thanks for being here.
- [43:56]
Renee Diresta
Thanks for having me.
- [43:57]
Ari Melber
Yeah. We'll be right back.
- [44:05]
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Alex Wagner
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Ari Melber
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Julie K. Brown
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- [45:35]
Ari Melber
Men need to be perp walked in handcuffs to the jail and until we see that here in this country, we've seen some of that in other countries, but until we see that here in this country, we don't have a system of justice that's working. At some point somebody got to Pam Bondi and said it's your job to cover this up. New remarks from Republican Congressman Massie. He gets the last word tonight talking about what the US could learn from the uk.
- [45:59]
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