GOP and Dem Lawmakers Respond to Release of Epstein Emails

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: GOP and Dem Lawmakers Respond to Release of Epstein Emails
Date: November 14, 2025
Host: Ari Melber, MSNBC

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the explosive release of Jeffrey Epstein’s emails implicating former President Donald Trump. Host Ari Melber unpacks the bipartisan Congressional response, details new revelations about Trump’s connections to Epstein, and interviews legal and political experts including Andrew Weissman, Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury, and novelist Jennifer Egan. Discussion centers on the impact of transparency, Congressional oversight, the possibility of further political fallout, and the wider effects on American free speech and culture.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shockwaves from Newly Released Epstein Emails

• Democratic Congressional Action:

  • Democrats released initial Epstein emails suggesting Trump had direct knowledge of Epstein’s activities with underage girls.
  • The release forced Republicans, who had withheld further documents, to make thousands more emails public.
  • Congress moves towards a “discharge petition” to override Speaker Johnson and force a full release of Epstein materials ([01:00]-[08:30]).

• Trump in the Spotlight:

  • Epstein allegedly described Trump spending "hours with a victim at Epstein's house." ([01:00]-[02:00])
  • Newly released messages show ongoing communication between Epstein and Trump as late as 2017 and 2018, contradicting Trump’s statements that their relationship ended years prior ([09:00]-[11:00]).

• Bipartisan Fallout:

  • Even some Republican lawmakers publicly call for transparency, suggesting a shift in the political wind.

  Key Quote:
  “If there is nothing to hide, why wouldn't you be the first person to say release it?” — Andrew Weissman ([16:38])

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2. Congressional Dynamics & The Push for Full Disclosure

• Speaker Johnson Overruled:

  • Despite Trump and Speaker Johnson working to keep files secret, bipartisan momentum leads to a rare override of the Speaker through a discharge petition.
  • A congressional vote is scheduled to force the DOJ to release the complete Epstein files. Many foresee significant Republican defection ([06:30]-[08:45]).
  • Congresswoman Ro Khanna predicts “over 40 Republicans” may vote against Trump.

• Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury Interview ([22:00]-[29:07]):

  • On Trump’s Legal Obligations:
    “Donald Trump needs to comply with the congressional subpoena… and he is still not in compliance with the law.” ([22:19])
  • On Content of the Emails:
    “Donald Trump is in the files… over a thousand times just in this drop of documents.” ([24:23]-[24:53])
  • On Partisan Divide:
    Points to “active cover up of crimes” by the White House and calls out Republican colleagues who shield the administration.
    “Even though the President is offering so-called political cover… this will be on your record forever and on your conscience.” ([26:16]-[27:24])
  • On Potential Legal Ramifications:
    Raises the possibility of impeachable offenses or crimes being documented in the files, and points to upcoming investigations into financial transfers ([27:47]-[28:31]).

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3. Legal and Investigative Analysis

• Andrew Weissman’s Investigation Perspective ([11:26]-[20:49]):

  • Highlights the reliability of private Epstein-Maxwell emails and the breadth of now-public corroborative evidence.
  • Critiques the DOJ’s investigative deficiencies, mentioning that Trump defense lawyer Todd Blanche was apparently unaware of material accessible through routine subpoenas ([12:12]-[14:46]).
  • Advocates for a special counsel or Congressional review given DOJ’s apparent unwillingness or inability to pursue the full investigation.
  • Details evidence of blackmail potential within Epstein’s circle and the repeated attempts to suppress incriminating search results about Epstein ([16:38]-[19:09]).

  Key Quote:
  “It is so clear now from the Deputy Attorney General’s own words that an adequate investigation was not done… the work that’s necessary to hold people account that the victims are entitled to was not done.” — Andrew Weissman ([19:09])

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4. Media, Free Speech, and Cultural Response

• Satire and Dissent:
  • Ari Melber discusses the role of artistic dissent in holding the government accountable, citing how “South Park” and Jimmy Kimmel have directly targeted Trump, even as some media companies appear cowed by political pressure ([35:01]-[38:40]).
• Jennifer Egan Interview ([38:43]-[44:46]):
  • Denounces the Trump administration’s attacks on the First Amendment as “the most anti First Amendment administration… in your lifetime” ([38:54]).
  • Discusses the dual threats of government censorship and self-censorship among artists, cautioning against both state pressure and extreme “wokeness” that discourages imagination ([39:25]-[41:50]).
  • Recounts leading PEN America in suing Trump for using executive power to retaliate against critics ([42:50]).
  • Reflects on how music and literature chronicle cultural change, as in her Pulitzer-winning “A Visit from the Goon Squad” ([43:43]-[44:25]).

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “[This] was a development where the Democrats used those emails to bring facts to what had at times felt like a Trump propaganda fight. But the emails, the facts, starting yesterday morning upended everything.” — Ari Melber ([01:00])
• “We are going to see these files. The American people deserve clarity on this issue. Let’s have the left and the right come together to say, enough with the Epstein class.” — Ari Melber ([03:27])
• “If you were not doing a cover up… you would not have Todd Blanch tweeting today that he was not aware of these documents.” — Andrew Weissman ([12:22])
• “Donald Trump needs to comply with the congressional subpoena that was issued in August, requiring legally that he disclose the full unredacted Epstein files… and he is still not in compliance with the law.” — Rep. Melanie Stansbury ([22:19])
• “Thomas Massie is saying to his colleagues, this will be on your record forever and on your conscience.” — Rep. Melanie Stansbury ([27:18])
• “If there is nothing to hide, why wouldn't you be the first person to say release it?” — Andrew Weissman ([16:38])

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Key Timestamps

• [01:00] – Ari Melber introduces the scope of the new Epstein email disclosures
• [03:10-03:42] – Bipartisan calls for transparency
• [11:26-20:49] – Andrew Weissman analysis on the investigative failures and implications
• [21:29-28:31] – Rep. Melanie Stansbury explains the committee’s process, the White House’s reaction, and potential crimes
• [35:01-38:40] – Melber discusses artistic responses (“South Park,” Kimmel) to the Trump era
• [38:43-44:46] – Jennifer Egan interview on free speech, self-censorship, and her literary work

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Takeaways

• Transparency is Having a Real Political Effect: Democratic moves on Congress, strengthened by some Republican defections, are forcing release of material the White House wanted to keep hidden.
• Evidence Suggests Deeper Trump-Epstein Ties: Newly released emails contradict Trump’s denial of ongoing ties to Epstein and raise questions about obstruction and potential criminal acts.
• Unusual Bipartisanship: The gravity of the revelations has led to rare bipartisan consensus on the need for public disclosure and investigation.
• Accountability for Past Cover-Ups: There is growing scrutiny not just of Trump, but of investigators and officials who may have failed in their duties.
• Cultural Pushback and First Amendment Fears: Artistic and media dissent continues, even as government pressure on free speech intensifies.

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Conclusion

This episode of "The Beat with Ari Melber" offered a comprehensive breakdown of the political and legal firestorm resulting from the release of Jeffrey Epstein’s emails, focusing on the implications for Trump, Congressional dynamics, and the enduring struggle for transparency and accountability. Through incisive legal analysis and thoughtful cultural commentary, the episode provided a clear and compelling guide for those seeking to understand one of the most consequential news stories of the year.

Transcript

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[Ari Melber]

Thanks so much. Welcome to the beat everyone. I'm Ari Melber reporting on damning Epstein emails. It's evidence that is clearly rocking the Trump White House. And now congressional Democrats who first released a handful of Epstein emails that implicated Trump are finding that what they're doing with facts is working. Remember, this was a development where the Democrats used those emails to bring facts to what had at times felt like a Trump propaganda fight. But the emails, the facts starting yesterday morning upended everything. Those damning emails driving headlines and outrage across the nation. Trump being alleged by Epstein to have known about the girls. Of course he knew about the girls. He was told. Some Trump voters, people around the world, all reacting to this. Epstein and his now convicted conspirator Maxwell discussed in 2011 how Trump spent, quote, hours with a victim at Epstein's house. And so those first emails, if you're following this story, swiftly led to thousands more. And the only reason there were thousands of other documents, emails, material sitting around Congress was that Republicans had it and had been holding it all back, holding back that material on Epstein from the public. Now, Democrats had forced their hand yesterday morning and so Republicans then dropped more material. Congress is going further. It is now on a path to, to vote on releasing even more Epstein material. And so I'm going to show you a few more things in the reaction. But as we kind of take this in a day into this story, basically, we can see how facts and pressure can still matter in this MAGA era, even on an issue where Donald Trump has pulled out all the stops to pressure his own party, and it's his Republican Party that controls both houses of Congress. And yet here we are watching more material come out and a glide path to a vote which is expected to have even more Republican defections. Indeed, most members of Congress willing to say anything about this now escalating Trump Epstein crisis have been uniformly negative, including Republicans.

[Andrew Weissman]

I am for transparency.

[Ari Melber]

I do think this was disaster for the White House.

[Jennifer Egan]

These are damning, and this is, I think, the tip of the iceberg.

[Ari Melber]

Any information that's released has to be taken seriously.

[Andrew Weissman]

This set of documents just should persuade.

[Ari Melber]

Them that one way or the other.

[Andrew Weissman]

We are going to see these files.

[Ari Melber]

The American people deserve clarity on this issue. Let's have the left and the right come together to say, enough with the Epstein class. They need to go. I think we need to get that information out.

[Andrew Weissman]

I think transparency is important. This pales in comparison to what the.

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Department of Justice has now.

[Ari Melber]

Those are voices from both parties and they're confronting the Epstein bombshell. And among Republicans, there are a lot of folks bracing for how much worse it can get because a lot's changed here in the past day and a half. The new Epstein Trump emails are bad, and Trump is acting like what you see on your screen is not the worst of it for him. Like whatever else is still hidden in the remaining Epstein files must be worse, because if not, now would be the time to just join the transparency soldier through a punishing week of already bad news. If the other stuff was going to be similar or less than this for him. Now, we can note Trump denies any wrongdoing, but he is not suggesting that the evidence would clear him. And he's losing more and more Republicans as the time goes. The House is back in session. They have the votes to override what has been the Republican Speaker's effort to hide any remaining Epstein material. That's what Trump wants, which itself is a bit of a tell. Now, a coming vote will decide if Congress demands that the DOJ release the complete Epstein files or whatever is legally allowable. That is what, of course, Trump ran on doing and then broke that campaign vow. Speaker Johnson has admitted defeat on this front. He lost his battle to stop any vote. And so now, having lost, he's trying to speed up this period, which is a little different from what he could do. He's now saying today that the Coming vote will be sooner than the amount of time allowed under the rules. He is going to have it as soon as next week rather than what he could have done, which is run out the clock longer. And that's probably a calculation that this thing is front burner and looks terrible. And he is in a losing process. And in politics, if you're losing a battle, you try to lose it quickly. Go on to the wider war. He is still speaker, but on the Epstein issue, he's not in charge. He has been overruled by the majority. This thing we talk about, they call it a discharge petition, is when you have enough votes to override the sitting speaker. It almost never happens, certainly not a bipartisan basis. And yet here we are because of how this has just taken off. Now. Some congressional insiders also say that while Republicans did hold the line for months, joining the Trump Johnson effort to avoid any votes, they would have to put their names down in public and thus avoid any further Epstein revelations now that the vote is happening and it'll be in public if it happens next week. And with the damning new emails, insiders say House Republicans will have a lot of pressure here to back transparency and the things so many of them campaigned on last year instead of more secrecy for the deceased sex trafficker and the Democrat who backs the Epstein disclosure bill, Ro Khanna, we played a little bit of sound from him just a moment ago, might recognize his face. He is saying that he expects over 40 Republicans could vote against Trump on this. So that is where we're headed over here. The people saying nothing matters. You got to wait till the next midterms. And over here is actual reality, damning new information that Donald Trump, despite being a powerful president with his party controlling Congress, that he couldn't fight back, he could not keep that secret. And the Democrats, using their lawful authority on that oversight committee, along with their bipartisan outreach there. I showed you Khanna and Massey, the Republican, to get somewhere on this. There's also more emails that have come out from that later group that I mentioned over the past day. And they show Trump's links to Epstein could go later than was initially suggested by Trump. He had said their relationship had ended and there is some corroboration that had certainly cooled at one point and they had this dispute about what was going on in Mar a Lago. But in these newly revealed, long secret communications, Epstein asserts that his 2017 Thanksgiving plans included Trump attending in person down there. This is years after Trump said the whole thing, the whole relationship was over. Epstein's tone also seemed to sour on Trump. He slammed his business practices. This was in 2018, discussing that he knows how dirty Donald is and that he guessed the non lawyers and New York business people have no idea. That refers to a kind of way that Trump does business and other things he may do that people didn't really realize when he was just back as a reality show star or whatnot. Specifically, this was during a period that you might remember if you follow the news. There was a lot of heat on Trump. There was an open Mueller probe. This was before he would go on to lose the 2020 campaign, when he was thought to be ultimately a one termer. And he was under this pressure. Epstein writing about when Trump's former fixer Michael Cohen cooperated against Trump and ultimately of course, criticized and testified against him in public and implicated him in something he had denied any knowledge of, which was a secret hush money payment to Stormy Daniels. Now, that kind of NDA arrangement related to allegedly sexual contact is something that Epstein's associates also used and knew about, although in this instance there was never any crime alleged between Stormy Daniels and Donald Trump to consenting adults. But the whole idea of a fixer and an NDA and secret stuff, this was Epstein's world. And so he was keyed in on this. And there's a 2018 text message where an unidentified sender says, oh, it'll all blow over. They're really just trying to take down Trump and doing whatever they can to do that. If you remember that period of time, that sounds like someone who is sympathetic to Trump, who sees any investigation or accountability as just kind of a conspiracy to bring him down. But to respond to that, Epstein, who had once been so close to Trump and we saw them socializing and all the rest, responds, it's wild because I am the one able to take him down. Now, if that's just a random text in the wind, you might not think much of it. Indeed, politics, media and the sordid circles that Epstein ran in are full of people doing bluster and exaggeration. That's why a real investigation, if it's done by the government or by independent parties such as what journalists try to do, you take in a lot of different material. So that text alone could be bluster. But couple that text with the earlier corroboration that Epstein was secretly texting and emailing Maxwell, later convicted of sex trafficking crimes, about what Trump did and knowing about the girls and being alone with one couple that with Michael Wolf, the Trump author, in the other messages talking to Epstein about basically having a, quote, debt or an ability to blackmail Donald Trump with what Epstein the sex trafficker knew about him and then couple that with, with Donald Trump's own cabinet member saying that Epstein was a blackmailer. But did the cabinet member know that? One of the questions that would soon come up is whether he also could blackmail President Trump and why did Attorney General Bondi claim that she had more files and evidence released, including a, quote, client list, and then release a two page memo that, remember, it said there's nothing else of any value to the public. She later said there's no client list. And that two page memo also said there's no blackmail to investigate. A funny thing to do. So many 180s and everyone to keep talking about this type of extortion by this deceased sex trafficker who keeps bringing up Donald Trump in messages that the Trump administration has tried so hard and failed to keep secret. That is where we find ourselves tonight. Andrew Weissman knows exactly how to pull threads on these kind of investigations. I'm going to turn to him for his first commentary on the beat here about this when we're back together in 90 seconds.

[Andrew Weissman]

He ever socialized with Donald Trump in.

[Ari Melber]

The presence of.

[Andrew Weissman]

Females under the age of 18.

[Ari Melber]

Though I'd like to answer that question at least today I'm going to have to assert my fifth, sixth of baptism. On the right, sir. There you see Jeffrey Epstein refused to answer that question at a deposition that was 2010. I'm joined by Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel, former deputy prosecutor in the Mueller probe. Welcome back, Andrew. You look at what's in these documents from an investigator's perspective, how credible are they and what, what stands out to you?

[Andrew Weissman]

A number of things. So one of the things that is credible to me, and it's an indicia of reliability, is when you have Jeffrey Epstein speaking to Glenn Maxwell at a time period where there's no reason to make up a story about Donald Trump. And Jeffrey Epstein is saying, you know, he has not barked, he has not essentially spoken about me and what he knows about me. And Ghislaine Maxwell says, you know, I was thinking about that too. So she clearly understands what he's saying. She doesn't say, what are you talking about? What would he possibly know? And that's done at a time, and it's between two people where there's no reason for them to be lying to each other about it. And then of course, you have lots and lots of corroborating evidence. Way too much to go into here. What I find interesting is if you're actually doing a real investigation, if you were not doing a cover up and we're, we're living through the COVID up, you would not have Todd Blanch tweeting today that he was not aware of these documents. If. Well, let's take that as face value. Let's assume that is true. That means that there has not been any, an adequate investigation. It means that they have not subpoenaed and done search warrants of the obvious emails and texts that you would want from Jeffrey Epstein, from Ghislaine Maxwell, from all of the other people. And that's taking what he said is true, that he said that this was something law enforcement did not have. Let's leave aside the incompetence, that shows if that's true, that why wouldn't you have this? But it shows all of the things that you need to do and it, it suggests to me that it's certainly not going to be this Department of Justice that does it. And you need to either have Congress or you need to have. What would happen in a normal situation is a special counsel look into this. Somebody who's independent of the White House, who is at the very least the subject of the investigation.

[Ari Melber]

Well, and, and as you say, that's if you take it at face value, Blanche also clearly feeling the heat. He's not speaking out cuz it's going well. And it may be that he didn't want to look at anything that was bad for Trump. His background was being a Trump defense lawyer. So he wanted to go in and talk to her and just sort of not see it. The original SDNY probe, wouldn't it start by getting texts and emails of the subject?

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah, I mean, I'm taking it, I'm trying to take him at his word. Maybe there's, you know, I shouldn't be. But he has said law enforcement did not have this group of documents. Of course they did have and they have said that they have substantial documents. So, you know, I'm not sure how, how much of a good excuse it is for him to say, well, I didn't have these when he had lots and lots of other ones. And we didn't see him cross examine Glenn Maxwell with a single document that was at all sort of adversarial.

[Ari Melber]

He went in there either deliberately flying blind or as you say, as part of a cover up. If you wanted to just check in with this now convict, you could have anyone from the original case team. People work, as you well know, years, sometimes on These matters. I want to show a couple more of the newer emails that we haven't covered yet. This is 2019 coming out of these newly released files where you have Epstein talking to basically someone who's a big fish in Europe. And he says, you might suggest to Putin and his foreign minister that they can get insight from talking to me. And he says, we have this June 2019, quote, he understood Trump after our conversations, referring to his discussion with an ambassador. It's not complex. He must be seen to get something. It's that simple. Here we're seeing that other sort of dark art of how Epstein might hold himself out to individuals around the world and try to be useful. And then 2019 between Epstein and Steve Bannon. Apparently they were in enough touch to be, to be talking this way. Epstein refers to the disgraced Prince Andrew who was with Trump and says to too funny with three O's there. And then he says, recall Prince Andrew's accuser came out of Mar? A Lago. Bannon says, can't believe nobody is making you the connective tissue. What do you think of that?

[Andrew Weissman]

You know, I think the big picture here is there is, this is where there's, it's not just there's so much smoke, there is actual fire here. You do have a sitting president who has denied things that we now read. And there's evidence now to suggest that the president, what he has said about his relationship and what he knew and what he didn't know is not true. You have the actual perpetrators saying the President knew and saying it at a time that it's hard to see what his motive would be to lie. But to me, the kicker is sort of, where are we right now? Why would the White House be saying, don't release anything more? That to me, that's just like this is sort of common sense, which is if there's nothing more, release it. I mean, to me, the behavior is not just the evidence, which is substantial, but it's also. Why are we in the middle of a cover up? Why wouldn't, if there is nothing to hide, why wouldn't you be the first person to say release it?

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, no, they're, they're acting like whatever else is in there is this bad or worse. I'm going to put up some, some more material. This comes out of the Epstein estate. So the chain of custody is strong, but what it represents is still open to interpretation. This is a Google screenshot of what they called internally an action plan where they're looking at Google results and they talk about assets we're strengthening and trying to get the true bad stuff about Epstein off the first page of his results. Then they have another Action Plan 2013 and it says note negatives from this location are stronger because of the relevance of negative listings to New York City. It looks like Andrew that he was paying people to try to distort search results and basically bury what was still the light slap on the wrist of his prior case. Where does that fit into all this? Because for people concerned about the history and the victims, there was this sense that the justice system failed to punish him and catch him initially. And then he seemed to re emerge and be able to allegedly do more crime because he could consort and get validation from all kinds of people. We talked about Donald Trump, talked about people out in Europe, some people in business, some people tied to the Democratic Party. You know, anyone who's doing it is, is accountable. It doesn't matter what their affiliations are. And this sort of again gives you a little window into the secret distortions they were doing.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah, so this is not unusual. Somebody who is a very wealthy individual who has this criminal history is trying to massage and manipulate his public image in various ways. And you see in these texts efforts to do that. Again, focusing there on what we were talking about, I want to make sure people understand that if this is being used in a Gmail account, it is so normal and so easy for the government to obtain that information. You can use subpoenas which are used every day of the week and you can get search warrants for email accounts. The idea that we have heard from Todd Blanche that this was, according to him, something they did not have, I have to tell you, is jaw dropping. He used the phrase that these documents were hidden by the estate, meaning they're at the estate, they're not hidden by the estate. And all you have to do is do the same thing that Congress did, which is give them a subpoena and they turn them over. The idea that that wasn't done. To me, if I'm a victim here or just a member of the public that wants to know what is going on, is there a cover up? It is so clear now from the Deputy Attorney General's own words that an adequate investigation was not done. And that's taking the Deputy Attorney General statements at his word, at his face value, it shows that the work that's necessary to hold people account that the victims are entitled to was not done.

[Ari Melber]

Really important points. Andrew Weissman, thank you very much. Appreciate it. We're going to come back to you on some other important legal developments later in the hour. Andrew mentions, of course, these open questions against the DOJ under Trump. We're going to put some of those, those questions to one of the top Democrats who helped get these files out from the Oversight Committee. That's my guest. Next.

[Andrew Weissman]

The list of clients that went to the island has not been made public.

[Ari Melber]

So if you're able to, you'll be.

[Andrew Weissman]

I'd certainly take a look at it.

[Jennifer Egan]

Would you declassify the Epstein files?

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, Yeah, I would. Will that really happen?

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

It's sitting on my desk right now.

[Ari Melber]

He would. It's on our desk. They're going to do it. They never did. And interestingly, in an unusual development in today's government, a combination of Democrats and Republicans are pushing back to get what was now 20,000 plus emails out this week and a vote coming for the whole Epstein set of files. With that in mind, we turn to a very newsworthy guest, Democratic Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury of New Mexico, who is a member of the House Oversight Committee that pushed for these releases. Welcome to.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

It's great to be here.

[Ari Melber]

Tell us about why you focused with your colleagues on those early three emails, which are newsworthy and seem important, and then how that led the Republicans to respond with 20,000 emails more because, heck, a lot of people would have been interested in getting all of this a long time ago.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

Yeah. Well, first of all, we just received this tranche of documents fairly recently from the estate. But I want to start with the most important piece here, which is Donald Trump needs to comply with the congressional subpoena that was issued in August, requiring legally that he disclose the full unredacted Epstein files that the DOJ and FBI have. And he is still not in compliance with the law and has not released those files. Those files include the criminal investigations not only of sex trafficking, but also financial crimes and the failure of the federal government to prosecute Jeffrey Epstein that allowed him, as your guest said, to continue to abuse women. And which we believe based on reports out of the White House that Pam Bondi has already informed the president he appears in multiple times. So this email drop that came from the estate this last week, I think really confirms what many people already knew in their gut, which is Donald Trump is in the files, right?

[Ari Melber]

He's in. Yeah, he's in the files. What if you say recently, when did you get this material from the estate?

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

I don't know the actual date of delivery from the estate, but what I do know is that the congressional staff who received it worked all weekend to try to understand what was in the files. And they were released in their entirety yesterday. This is, I believe, the third or fourth release from the estate. And, you know, the emails that are in there, including some of the ones you've highlighted, are extraordinarily explosive. One in particular, I think stands out, which is an exchange in 2011 between Jeffrey Epstein, Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell in which he says Donald Trump is the dog that has embarked. And then he references the police, et cetera. And I think not only does this show that Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell were actively trying to manage Donald Trump's knowledge of the crimes, they state in that email exchange that he spent time with one of the victims and they explicitly mentioned that he hadn't barked to the police. So it's very clear.

[Ari Melber]

That's really striking.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

Yes.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And that, and that's a major addition to the public evidence for the committee side, which you know about more than just about anyone on the inside. Did the Republicans resist? Why didn't all of the material come out? As you know, the White House had been on both sides of this. Because Trump said, as we showed tonight, that he would release it all. He hasn't. But they also alleged that you somehow were not being on the level by only releasing a handful first.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

Well, I mean, the entire trove of documents is in the public domain. They've been released by, by the committee. And as you yourself have noted, the entire media is going through them right now in real time. And Donald Trump's named over a thousand times just in this drop of documents. So I find it hard to believe that my Republican colleagues and the president could claim that this is some sort of misrepresentation when the American people have eyes and they can read for themselves what's in these documents. But I also want to note that Donald Trump was sent into such a tailspin that, yes, yesterday he called in for an emergency meeting which apparently lasted for hours. The FBI Director, Pam Bondi, Todd Blanch, and they brought in a member of Congress to the Situation Room to try to discuss what to do about this, the discharge petition, and still they have yet to comply with the subpoena. And so I think your other guest said it perfectly. If they have nothing to hide, then why are they engaged in such a clear cover up?

[Ari Melber]

And so this vote now, the speaker says it'll be next week. Do you expect any of the Republicans on your Oversight Committee and in Congress to join that vote? Because they're sort of caught now between claims of Transparency and the Trump panic that you just cited.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

Yeah, I think it's more than just transparency. I mean, this is the largest potential sex trafficking criminal enterprise in American history. I mean, we're talking about potential criminal indictments that could come out of this investigation. So this is an active cover up of crimes. I want to be clear about that. And the failure of the White House to comply with this subpoena is also a crime. But, yeah, we expect Republicans are going to vote for this. I think the speaker, now that he was defeated, is going to try to make it quick and get it over with so that the President can try to move on and pretend like nothing happened. But, you know, there was a great interview last night with Thomas Massie, who's been the Republican lead on this discharge petition. And what I appreciated about what he said is that he urged his Republican colleagues to do the right thing. Because even though the President is offering so called political cover to Republicans who vote with him to basically cover up a child sex trafficking ring, he's saying Thomas Massie is saying to his colleagues, this will be on your record forever and on your conscience.

[Ari Melber]

Right. And I'm only jumping in with one more question as we run out of time. But as you say, this is a rare thing where we've seen some bipartisanship on accountability, transparency. The final question is, do you think anything in these full files, if they're released, could uncover impeachable offenses or even crimes? I mean, is that a concern about why the President seems to be fighting so hard to stop it?

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

Well, I think that the President has likely already committed multiple legal. What's the right word? He's probably already committed crimes that are impeachable. But are there things that are in these files that have been investigated and not prosecuted? We won't know until they are fully disclosed. But I will say this. The victims and their lawyers have been very clear with us to follow the money. And our next set of subpoenas will be the financial records involving Jeffrey Epstein. And we understand that there is some very, not only salacious but potentially criminal activity in many of the wire transfers and financial transfers that happened during that time.

[Ari Melber]

Well, you mentioned that. And Senator Wyden, the Democrat on the in the upper body, has been on that for a while. The JP Morgan alerts came in late. It seemed to be that even when Epstein was indicted, they didn't file the suspicious activity reports. Then he died and suddenly the bank said, oh, I guess there's a problem here, which is actually itself suspicious. So as you say it's a lot of big questions. Donald Trump has claimed that he could get away with, quote, shooting someone on Fif Avenue. But he's not acting right now like he thinks he's going to get away with whatever's in there. He's fighting hard to hide it. So I appreciate you filling us in on what your committee's been doing, Congresswoman. Thank you.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

Absolutely appreciate it.

[Ari Melber]

We're going to fit in a break later tonight. Why Donald Trump seems rattled by not only the Epstein saga, but the jokes from south park to Kimmel. We have something special on that, kind of interesting and maybe even a little entertaining. But first, the effort to go after Trump's enemies might be blowing up in Trump's face before they even get to a trial. I'll tell you about the setbacks in court today. Next.

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Start growing your business today. Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads Donald Trump is trying to basically abuse the Justice Department to go after his opponents sounds like a criticism, but he's admitted that that in some cases the evidence is so thin his own DOJ appointees initially wouldn't pursue it. That might just sound like the sour grapes of history or something to throw into emotion. But right now, his replacements, some of them rank inexperienced partisans, may be kicked off these cases entirely. That is why this story matters today. A federal judge in court was very skeptical that the tempest prosecutor that Trump basically installed through the DOJ to go after two of his foes, Comey and James, whether that temp is even lawfully a prosecutor. And this could topple the whole Comey case. If you remember, the DOJ tapped Lindsey Halligan. She's an insurance lawyer. She didn't have any prosecutorial experience, which means she wouldn't normally get, say, a career or line prosecutor job in that office, let alone running the whole place. But she was installed quite clearly because the more experienced people who were basically MAGA hires but didn't think there was evidence, refused to go after Comey. Today. The judge said there's open doubts about whether she is validly in office, her appointment's validity. And they also, the judge discussed the gap in a grand jury testimony, kind of a Watergate era vibe of missing minutes, which undercuts Attorney General Bondi's review of the indictment. Now, this is not a ruling yet, but it is a sign of how badly it's going because usually at this stage in a case, you're talking about getting ready for trial, swapping evidence and then picking a jury, they're not doing any of that yet. They got a federal judge who is saying, I know you said Comey is illegal, did illegal things, but actually your temp prosecutor might be illegal. Then you add to that the fact that they waited till the bottom of the ninth deadline to file this thing. If Halligan, this Trump temp, is tossed off the case, the deadline will have been blown. And legally, they probably can't refile anything against Comey. We should get a ruling on this by Thanksgiving. Up next, why from Kimmel to South park, the artists speaking out are rattling the Trump White House.

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[Ari Melber]

It's funny how fast things can change. We started the year with some major corporate figures, law firms, some media executives looking at the Trump pressure and just buckling despite the power and riches they have the access to lawyers or in the case of universities, a whole general counsel department. And yet in that void, we have seen people step up who are no surprise. It's a reason why artistic dissent has always, in many societies, including those with even greater autocratic problems than ours, have stepped up. It's a bad thing that our government, for the first time in decades, has tried to to cancel comedians like Kimmel. But it's also a sign of a kind of pushback. In fact, in the same parent company that is currently changing CBS in 60 minutes, reportedly to appease Trump, some of them admit it. Within that same company is a group of comics who write south park that are finding a new relevance by going directly at Donald Trump with their corporate parents be damned. The new episode is tough, funny, and in many ways completely deliberately shocking. There's even a kind of a fictitious romantic encounter caught on security footage. There are some scenes we just can't show you around here based on our judgment and standards. But we will show you how south park went after what it views as the bias at Fox News.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yo. Hey, definitely disheartening news here, if it's anyone's guess why.

[Jennifer Egan]

Sorry, sorry, we gotta interrupt you there. We just got word that the president is calling in to Fox and Friends.

[Ari Melber]

Well, what about you and the vice president? We're trying to relax, sir, but we've all seen the security footage.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury]

That's all fake.

[Ari Melber]

Oh, it's fake. Oh, thank God.

[Andrew Weissman]

This is a Fox News fake news alone.

[Ari Melber]

And on it goes. And again, that's just the reaction to something we're not actually showing you. It is funny to some, outrageous to others. That's fine. In a free society, people can say, oh, I don't like that it disrespects someone I agree with or the office of the president. Other people can say it's funny or you need to stand up to the president. But the point is that we have still that free speech in our. There are media outlets that have not gone the way of those, I guess, brave comics at south park because you got some pretty blue chip names here, including tech leaders and Disney who've decided to just pay millions for cases that lawyers overwhelmingly said were shakedowns. They could have won them in court, but they didn't want to fight because they wanted to be on the right side of an increasingly demanding government, a government, by the way, led by Donald Trump that is not as popular out in the voting booth last week or in the polling. He's hitting new lows. Apparently the place he's most popular is in the cowardice of some day trading corporate boardrooms. Just calling it like I see it now. My next guest knows all about artistic descent and the power of art. Jennifer Egan is a Pulitzer Prize winning novelist. She's won many awards. Books you've probably heard of or seen people reading on the subway or in the park. One of my favorites, A Visit from the Goon Squad. The Candy House was top of the bestseller list. Manhattan beach was beloved. And over in the artistic political universe, she led Pan America in the first Trump term in 2018. They even filed cases against Trump trying to defend free speech. Longtime reader, first time caller, whatever the expression is. Thanks for joining.

[Jennifer Egan]

My pleasure. Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

We'll get to all of the art. Let's start with the government. Is this the most anti First Amendment administration you've seen in your lifetime?

[Jennifer Egan]

For sure, yeah. I mean, I think we all feel a sense that things are not good and could get worse. It feels like a lot of different components that are threatening are hanging in the air. You know, National Guard troops coming into cities. It starts to feel like, well, Wait a minute. If you say the wrong thing, there's actually muscle to potentially stop you. So those, those various elements all in one picture are scary for sure.

[Ari Melber]

Do artists self censor?

[Jennifer Egan]

I think that they do. I think that that has happened due to pressure from the left as well. Being candid, I think that. But I do think no one, no artist I know, or even a gatekeeper of the arts has ever argued for policing the imagination. I think we sort of all know that we have to imagine freely to do good work. So I think, you know, book bans, for example, of which there are just tons right now, are definitely bad. But as long as artists are still imagining freely, I feel like that damage is temporary. Except that it's denying kids who are reading less books that might interest them. So that's a problem on the other end.

[Ari Melber]

Well, you drew a kind of a nonpartisan subtlety. The government pressure is very heavy. It's different than social pressure. But there have been sort of leftist efforts to say entire books or, or material should be pulled because what was written then or now is now deemed overly offensive. You're against that as well?

[Jennifer Egan]

Well, I think that it's, I mean, as I've taught English Literature, literature and one of the big challenges is to help students metabolize work that might be offensive to a present day perspective, but in its time was not. So if the work is worth it, you know, for example, the House of the House of Mirth by Edith Wharton has some overt anti Semitic tropes in it. They are offensive, they offend me. I think the book is still worth reading and it was, it was useful to make that case to my students. There are other books like Mickey Spillane who writes, you know, seems to write only about women who are murderous, sort of lecherous, you know, horrible creatures. To me, his work is, is really invalidated by some of those perspectives. I just don't find it fun. So I wouldn't say that the pressure is just about older work that may be offensive. I think that one thing that has worried me is talking to graduate students in writing programs, for example, who say, are we really allowed to imagine any experience different from our own? Is that allowed? That is self censorship. That really scares me because there are so many pressures. There are so many other things someone can do than read fiction.

[Ari Melber]

And that's kind of a caricature of the over wokeness that identity rules to the degree that you can't even use fiction or some, or art to inhabit the other, which is one of the joys of art, is it?

[Jennifer Egan]

Not very much so. And I think the danger is just that if there is that hesitation about taking the chance of writing about someone other than oneself, that is a kind of self censorship that worries me. And I mean, Toni Morrison was such an advocate. There are quotes from her saying to her students, don't write about your dull suburban lives. You know, imagine something totally different. Give me that. That's the imaginative leap that makes fiction fun as a reader and writer. Not to say that every single time someone does something, it's good. I mean, in the end, readers and the marketplace will let you know whether you've succeeded. But I don't think people should be punished for trying. And I also think that, that they should not be discouraged from trying to think outside their lives.

[Ari Melber]

I mentioned you led, Penn, which fights for artisan free speech. Does it strike you that this president has proven to be so petty and offended by Jimmy Kimmel's jokes, by the south park satire?

[Jennifer Egan]

I mean, it's like Alec Baldwin on Saturday Night Live the first time around. You know, he, he is very thin skinned, clearly. I mean, when I was president of PEN America, we sued Trump for trying to use the executive to punish people who offended him. And one example of that was trying to get the Postal service to punish Amazon because he didn't like his coverage in the Washington Post. And Jeff Bezos owns all of that. Seems like child's play compared to now.

[Ari Melber]

Absolutely.

[Jennifer Egan]

I mean, that was shocking then.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

So I have about a minute left. I love the Goon Squad, where you both explore the creation of culture in the music business and its troubles, its downfall. And then you look at time and how people struggle with their own aging and the passing of time. Can you just tell us about that? And is that why it connected with so many people?

[Jennifer Egan]

Well, I was surprised it did connect with so many people. It is explicitly a book about time passing and aging. And music, I think is so intertwines with time for all of us because especially now that we can listen to music from all periods of our lives all the time. It's kind of a time machine. So I was interested in looking at time passing with music, but also looking at our change into a digital era, which has had massive impacts on music along with a lot of other things, local journalism, journalism generally. But so I was looking, I was interested in time passing within a life and also within a culture. And somehow music felt like the right way to do that.

[Ari Melber]

I love that you put that music can be a time machine in the old days, through most of human history. You could have 50 albums if you were really into it. And rich, maybe you had 100 albums. Now we have literally hundreds of thousands. You can go around the world with the earphones. The book really captured that. And Jennifer, I want to thank you for coming on.

[Jennifer Egan]

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Ari Melber]

And in the spirit of changing media, they say, oh, you do a book tour. We'll sell the new book, but we'll put on screen several of your books viewers. I recommend, of course, the one I really love to visit from the Goon Squad, a novel that you can get wherever books are sold. Check out Jennifer's work if you haven't. And we will be right back.

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[Ari Melber]

Thanks for watching the Beat with Ari Melber signing off from our last time at 30 Rockefeller and soon to join you on Ms. Now running a business.

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