Iran War Continues with New Strikes

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Beat with Ari Melber
Host: Ari Melber, MSNBC NOW
Episode: Iran War Continues with New Strikes
Date: July 22, 2026

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Overview

This episode zeroes in on the ongoing U.S.-Iran war, the political backlash surrounding its management, a key Senate hearing grilling Trump administration defense officials, and the spiraling human and financial costs. Ari Melber is joined by Reverend Al Sharpton, Molly Zhang, and New York Times reporter Michael Grinbaum to dissect the lack of a clear war strategy, the mounting discontent within both major parties, and the administration’s recent legal clashes with the media.

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1. Senate Hearing on Iran War (Starts ~01:07)

Key Points:

• No Congressional Authorization: The war with Iran continues without explicit Congressional approval, raising War Powers Act concerns.
• Funding Crisis: The Pentagon, represented by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and General Dan Kaine, is urgently seeking an additional $70 billion as existing funds dwindle ("lines of funding would run out within weeks" [01:07]).
• Human Cost Highlighted: So far, 17 Americans killed, 100 injured in just two weeks.
• Both Parties Skeptical: While there was bipartisan respect for troops, both Republicans and Democrats expressed skepticism about the war’s aims, exit strategy, and communication honesty.

Notable Quotes:

• Hegseth called out for transparency:
  "He said straight up ... the war has already run up a tab of $37 billion." – Ari Melber [02:50]
• Bipartisan frustration:
  "At what point do you stop asking Americans to foot the bill for a war they don't support?" – Molly Zhang [04:07]
  "President Trump has by any objective measure failed to achieve his goals." – Republican Senator Kennedy [04:33]

Memorable Exchanges:

• Senator Murray's questioning:
  "On April 8, you said... 'their missile program is functionally destroyed.' ... Iran has been firing at US military bases in the region... How is it possible if their capabilities were, quote, functionally destroyed three months earlier?" – Senator Murray [11:42-12:09]

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2. Political Fallout and Public Opinion (~07:42–16:00)

Key Points:

• Mounting Republican Anxiety: Republicans fear the war will become an election liability. Trump's promise to keep out of "endless wars" comes under fire.
• Media and Public Perception: Polling and constituent feedback show war unpopularity, coupled with rising gas and grocery prices directly blamed on war spending.
• Trust Erosion: The administration’s shifting timeline for victory is painfully apparent and being weaponized by opponents.
• Historical Parallels: Comparisons drawn to Vietnam and LBJ — how unresolved wars sink even successful administrations.

Notable Quotes:

• On shifting goals and truthfulness:
  "With the lies about the timeline, all you need is a calendar. It's very easy to fact-check this... Days, not weeks. Well, if you have a calendar rev, we are more than days away from April 5th now." – Ari Melber [13:11]
• On public disillusion:
  "There's only one way the calendar could ... say to the American people is that we are being misled consistently." – Rev. Al Sharpton [14:11]
• Impact on daily life:
  "Even if you're not completely read in on the nuances of the Iran war, you have to fill up your tank with gas ... you cannot tell voters that their lived experience isn't real." – Molly Zhang [15:26]

Timestamps of select moments:

• Republicans turning serious:
  "The performative, kind of glib way of dancing through a hearing was not on the table today at all, which shows they feel the vulnerability." – Rev. Al Sharpton [09:24]
• Historical context with Vietnam:
  "These kinds of things could be your debacle. If Lyndon Johnson could not run again after all he did for civil rights ... because of a war..." – Rev. Al Sharpton [22:27]

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3. Trump Administration, Media, and DOJ Legal Battle (~26:49–38:00)

Key Points:

• Journalist Subpoenas: DOJ under Trump targeting New York Times reporters and their family members in apparent retaliation for critical coverage.
• Judicial Scrutiny: A Manhattan judge has paused subpoenas, with a major hearing set for Thursday to assess claims of harassment vs. national security pretext.
• Press Freedom Threatened: The administration’s rush to target journalists set off alarms about abuse of power and first amendment violations.

Notable Quotes:

• Chilling effect on journalism:
  "The Times is effectively arguing that this was the result of an enraged president who called his FBI director ... to oversee the leak investigation ... about 24 hours after the article first appeared." – Michael Grinbaum [32:41]
• Historical comparison:
  "Nixon could never. ... you're pointing out ... the actual FBI director ... doing the bidding as if he's the hatchet man." – Ari Melber [34:25]
• On procedural irregularities:
  "Phone records had also been subpoenaed from third party phone providers, not just for the journalists ... In one case, for a journalist's mother who is a psychotherapist in private practice." – Michael Grinbaum [37:44]

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4. Broader Impacts of War and Economy (~15:03-16:00, 21:16-22:27, 44:00+)

Key Points:

• Economic Pain: Groceries and gas unaffordable for most Americans; inflation a major voter concern linked to war.
• Broken Promises: Trump is repeatedly called out for failing to deliver on commitments to end wars and reduce living costs.
• Potential Election Consequences: The Iran war is emerging as a defining issue for the 2026 midterms, potentially eclipsing other topics.

Selected Moments:

• On inflation:
  "People are not being able to afford vacations. ... This is a regulatory issue to some extent." – Molly Zhang [44:09]
• On administration’s paradox:
  "We have no historical precedent for someone who runs for president ... 'I'm going to end foreign wars' ... and what does he do? He immediately gets into numerous foreign wars and ... things become more expensive." – Molly Zhang [21:31]

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5. Culture & Lighthearted Moments (~40:19–46:30)

Key Points:

• Master P and Molly Zhang Segment: The panel discusses RFK Jr.'s legal troubles, food safety scares, inflation in everyday life, and entrepreneurship.
• Humor and Aphorisms: Rev. Al Sharpton’s fish aphorisms bring levity, while Master P encourages resilience and economic self-determination: "We need more independent thinkers ... That way the poverty can go away." [45:14]
• Food Talk: Discussion of salty chips, berries, and the effects of food regulation lapses on American consumers.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps):

• "At what point do you stop asking Americans to foot the bill for a war they don't support?" – Molly Zhang (04:07)
• "If Lyndon Johnson could not run again after all he did for civil rights and other things because of a war, I think that whomever the Republicans bring behind Trump is going to have a hard road to travel." – Rev. Al Sharpton (22:27)
• "If your name wasn't Kennedy, here's how all your job interviews would go: it says here you are a heroin addict who eats roadkill." – Jon Stewart, clip shared by Ari Melber (41:53)
• "Even if you're not completely read in on the nuances of the Iran war, you have to fill up your tank with gas ... you cannot tell voters that their lived experience isn't real or isn't happening." – Molly Zhang (15:26)
• "Nixon could never. ... the actual FBI director ... doing the bidding as if he's the hatchet man." – Ari Melber (34:25)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Senate Hearing analysis & war status: 01:07–16:00
• Economic impacts & political fallout: 15:03–22:27
• Media, DOJ, and press freedom: 26:49–38:52
• Culture, inflation, and lighter moments: 40:19–46:30

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Conclusion

This episode of "The Beat" provides a nuanced, candid analysis of the Iran war's many fronts: political, human, economic, and even constitutional. The hosts and guests underscore a rare bipartisan unease in D.C., the effectiveness of Congressional oversight, the deepening disconnect between official narrative and facts on the ground, and the real-life pressures shaping what might be the key issue of the 2026 midterms. The discussion offers both sobering insight and moments of wit, capturing a complex moment in American political history.

Transcript

[Rob Lowe]

Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here, if you haven't heard. I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

We are picking up exactly where msnow's coverage and Nicole Wallace's discussion there had just left off because we have just seen the ending of this Senate hearing with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and General Dan Kaine. This is one of the most significant reviews of the ongo open ended war with Iran that the President did not seek Congress's authority or approval for. And yet we know he still needs Congress's money, which is of course at the end of the day, your money. And that's to continue this. This was Hagseth's first time there in months. He wants the money to pay for this war. It's about $70 billion more. Pentagon is of course doing their best and as many experts and veterans have pointed out, the Pentagon, the military, the people actually carrying out the war do what they are told by the president. That is the system. And yet on the political side, this war that the president did not get approval for or build support for is now languishing. And you could see that in the hearing. If you've been watching msnow, you've probably seen some of the exchanges which included some tough ones with Republicans. We have a budget issue here. It is an urgent budget shortfall, as some have put it. Lines of funding would run out within weeks, the Washington Post reports, and that's from the Iran war. That is just one way to describe the cost. When you get into the human cost. It's already 17Americans dead, 100 troops injured in the last two weeks. These are real people. And I will note, having followed along with the hearing today, that many of the lawmakers in both parties discussed and paid tribute to that human cost to the people actually fighting this war. If there was agreement on something today, it would be, of course, a tribute to those people, Americans who are braving the war. But the second thing we saw was some unity on the idea that this is not going well. Republicans traditionally, of course, softer on that, saying it in certain ways, sometimes diplomatically, sometimes almost in the mode of excuses on behalf of Trump. But you didn't hear a lot of voices today saying that there's a clear objective, a clear plan or a clear exit path. Hegseth also, because he's under oath, had to give up a little more factual transparency than I would say he or other officials in the administration are known for. And so he said straight up, something that's pretty unpopular when you think about the high prices, cost of gas, people having to change or cancel summer plans because everything's more expensive right now. He mentioned the war has already run up a tab of $37 billion. Now, here's some of those exchanges today.

[Senator or Congressional Member 1]

What has actually been achieved? We hear a different rationale for this war every few days.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Your fallback to the Biden administration is just a very, very obvious

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

excuse for what I think is probably, as you

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

described so often, gross negligence.

[Molly Zhang]

At what point do you stop asking Americans to foot the bill for a war they don't support?

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Well, Senator, I obviously don't agree with your characterization.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I think your first strategic mistake was to not consult the American people in Congress and make a clear case for the reasons behind this war.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

I think the American people to deserve

[Rob Lowe]

a definition of what it means to win in Iran.

[Senator or Congressional Member 1]

President Trump has by any objective measure failed to achieve his goals.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Gosh,

[Molly Zhang]

we need straight answers.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

That last voice, Republican Senator Kennedy basically all but accusing the Pentagon and the administration of not giving straight answers today as well as in the lead up to today. If you watch these type of hearings or their excerpts and you're watching the news, so you're probably familiar, you might have noticed that there was a seriousness, a sobriety, even at times a kind of a hardheaded kind of calm energy, if you want to put it that way, in the room, because this is not some other political thing, even by the lower standards of the matter. MAGA era and some of the people that Trump has put in charge of major operations who still seem like they're making Internet content or trolling or want to make points on social media. This was a serious hearing about a serious topic. And Secretary Hegseth, who is presiding over a very unpopular war and a lot of questions. I will say as an observer, he struck a more serious tone, at least in style, than many other Trump officials. And perhaps they know that this is only going to get worse and look worse if they do anything to minimize what I mentioned, the loss of life, the unpopularity around the country, and what are frankly, bleak choices ahead. Anyone in this country who might be against the war isn't rooting for demise, they're rooting for this thing to end. But how? We are reading reports that Trump is considering two options now that his ceasefire is basically broken. One would be a new 10 day ceasefire to just reopen the strait. You'll recall that would be still trying to get back to where we started before he launched this war. Option two reportedly would be a massive joint military campaign with Israel to force Tehran's capulation. Capitulation. Now that's Axios reporting. The post says U.S. intel believe that strikes are unlikely to move Iran and that it's unlikely to soften its negotiating position because of US Military action. Another way to say that is what commanders have said throughout and what Cain mentioned today. The United States has extraordinary bombing capabilities. But it is a matter of strategic reality and modern military history that the United States has never run a bombing campaign or an air war to total victory. That is to say, if you want to take out a major country, you end up having a ground war. That's what we had in Iraq. Very few people think that's where we should go. So option two, if it is just more and more bombs, according to again, the current general in charge under the Trump administration, even by his testimony today, that's not gonna solve this thing. Now Republicans are worried about the blowback. Many Republicans say they're now boxed in. The Times reporting the collapse of the ceasefire presents them with a political worst case scenario months before the midterms. Politico quot quotes one ex Republican saying this whole thing has become a persistent dark cloud over the whole gop. Here's what we were hearing recently on Fox.

[Michael Grinbaum]

The clock is ticking for President Trump to get out of this war before voters head to the polls.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

He promised to keep us out of endless wars or unsatisfactory wars and now he's in one.

[Michael Grinbaum]

It's making a lot of Republicans nervous. It's already, as we know, unpopular, unpopular,

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

nervous, bracing For a route, we began with the substance, the lives lost, the cost, the way this war was launched without congressional authorization. Something that after enough time, can become a violation of the War Powers act and other limits on the executive's power. That's the substance. What I'll tell you tonight from observing this hearing, and we're about to bring in our expert guests, is this is one of those times where the substance is also driving the politics. Rare, I know, but the substance, the problems with no exit ramp, the problems with Donald Trump's approach to the war, the lies or mistakes he has made thus far because he said many things that aren't true about the duration and the exit and the US Strategic position, all of those substantive failures are now stoking a political failure for the Republican Party. That may explain the very different tenor we saw in this relatively tough hearing today. I want to bring in Reverend Al Sharpton, host of Politics Nation here at Ms. Now, president and founder of the National Action Network and New York Times contributing writer and Ms. Now analyst, Molly Zhang. Fast welcome to both of you. Rev. I mention that because we got a lot of news viewers who follow the stuff closely and they're used to some, frankly, clownish hearings. This one was pretty serious. It had Republicans also asking some at least medium tough questions. What does that tell us about where we're headed?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

It tells us that, I think that the Republicans all the way up to the White House realizes they're in more serious trouble than they thought and that the performative, kind of glib way of dancing through a hearing was not on the table today at all, which shows they feel the vulnerability. I mean, when you are now back with rising gas prices again and other things, they can't play with this. Their constituents are talking to them. Their candidates in midterms are talking to them. When you have a Senator Kennedy from Louisiana implying that they're not telling the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God, then they know this is no time to clown. You're going to have to really try to appear serious. The problem is that the serious stuff is damaging no matter how they try and verbalize it or go around it. The facts are the facts and the facts speak very ill of them. That had no strategy in the first place. And that I really think people forget. Trump came in this war when he saw the Iranian people marching and he thought the government was going to topple and they'd ride in and help push them over the cliff. The people already brought him there. It didn't happen. They killed The Supreme Leader, they went through all of that. It did not destabilize them. They totally underestimated and had bad intel on who they were fighting. And now they don't know what to do.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Yeah. And the questioning from say Kennedy out to Democrat Murray Molly was don't tell us the war is won or Iran is boxed incompletely or when we can see them projecting strength. I mean it just becomes, and it has echoes of Vietnam or other times where governments Vietnam, you had both parties over time involved in line of the country about that, Democrats and Republicans here it happens to be one party. It happens to be the Trump Republican White House doing it. But don't tell us that they're decimated and cowering when look at how they can project force. This was an exchange here. I want to play with Senator Murray. Take a look.

[Senator or Congressional Member 1]

On April 8, you said, and I quote, their missile program is functionally destroyed. Launchers, production facilities and existing stockpiles depleted and decimated and almost completely ineffective. Mr. Secretary, Iran has been firing at US military bases in the region and its ships for the last week. How is it possible if their capabilities were, quote, functionally destroyed three months earlier, as she claimed, for them to be

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

doing this now, Senator, Iran is at the weakest point militarily it has ever been in, in the past decade.

[Molly Zhang]

I mean, that's the problem is with having a Secretary of War who's also a weekend cable news anchor is that he talks a lot. And what these Democrats did, which I think was effective, was that they brought up things he had said previously and then the contradictions that had happened since then. And there's so much public record of him, one thing and then another, and even Trump too. But I think what's so interesting about this and so important is when you think about the Vietnam War and the regulation, the legislation that came after that, that post Nixon anti corruption war powers act that was meant to prevent something that's happened now, which is these endless wars with no, you know, with no buy in from Congress. And this Congress has centered this administration on that already.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Yeah. And rev, sometimes with Trump to fact check, we say, oh, we gotta go check the data. Military and foreign policy issues can be complicated. You gotta check, oh, what is the state of the Iranian military. Right. And what are the reliable sources for that. But with the lies about the timeline, all you need is a calendar. It's very easy to fact check. This we have here, starting March 1st, we'll put this up four to five weeks. Was the claim March 7th? A little while then we got very soon. Then you got the Vietnamesque moving of the goalpost. Actually, tough talk. As long as it's necessary. April 5th. Days, not weeks. Well, if you have a calendar rev, we are more than days away from April 5th now. April 15th, very soon. May talk in victory. June close to having a deal. That deal, of course, came and went. They're at war again right now and some say they've never really stopped being at war because the ceasefire deal didn't hold. What do you think about how that calendar is in the minds of the American people going towards the midterms?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

There's only one way the calendar could, in my opinion, say to the American people is that we are being misled consistently. And the more we're being misled, the more they are taking us for fools. You know, I had an old friend that had this expression, a fish wouldn't get caught if they kept his mouth shut. I think that the reason that they

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

never heard that one.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Yeah, well, neither did Donald Trump and Hanksen, because if they had not talked so much, they wouldn't be caught where they are now. They have been ensnared by their own words. Not the Democrats, not what somebody leaked. This wasn't in somebody's book. They've said it on mic, on camera, over and over again. They set different dates, different gold posts and they were not able to reach what they announced.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

When you look at groceries, which fits into this and gas Americans feelings, would you describe the cost of groceries as affordable or unaffordable? Now that's one of those questions they ask, not can you afford groceries? Some people have the money for the, for the month, they have their budget set. But a vast majority, which statistically includes a lot of Trump voters, Molly, at this juncture say they would describe it now. Unaffordable.

[Molly Zhang]

Yeah. And you have gas again for over $4 a gallon. And that is the thing is, even if you're not completely read in on the nuances of the Iran war, you have to fill up your tank with gas. And so you go to the gas station and gas is more expensive. And that is just the lived experience of voters. And we all know you cannot tell voters that their lived experience isn't real or isn't happening.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Yeah.

[Molly Zhang]

And Republicans are cruising into the midterms where in the summer travel time and people are trying to fill up their car with gas and they can't afford it.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Yeah, really a bruising day for the administration on the Hill. Rev and Rev Al and Molly are with me. We're going to do our short break 90 seconds and continue with our great guests.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Julian Barnes]

Normally in these ads you expect somebody to ask you to buy something, but this is something different. I'm Julian Barnes and I'm a reporter for the New York Times. I'm a national security reporter and that means I'm reporting on military operations. These are fast paced, quickly moving situations. What exactly is happening on the ground is often shrouded in mystery. But we turn to trusted sources, satellite imagery and expertise built up over years in order to ferret out the facts that wouldn't otherwise come to light. I'm here to ask you to seek out a news source that does firsthand fact based reporting. If it's your local paper, great. If it's the Times, thank you. Because where you go, for your information, matters.

[Vivgard Hytrulo Advertisement Voice]

I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hyrulo pre filled syringe which contains fgartegamide alpha and hyaluronidase qvfc. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment my way. Visit vivgardmyway.com that's V Y V G-A-R-T myway.com and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo, brought to you by Argenics.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

You said at the start of the war it would be four or five weeks.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

Well, you keep hitting me. This is a far bigger job that we're doing. If you look at it after a week and a half, not four weeks, a week and a half, two weeks. We stop them from probably, but I don't want to have the word probably.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Donald Trump struggling with the timeline that hung over the the difficult hearing today for Secretary Hagstadt. As I mentioned, questioned by Republicans, Democrats alike at times pressed on the timeline. Rev, this is, this is Trump as a wartime president. This is not Venezuela where whatever you want to call it, I would say in all fairness that it was an act of war and we wouldn't look kindly on a country coming in and trying to take any of our leaders. But ultimately, the administration avoided a war. So they went in, they'd act a war, but the ensuing government kind of let it be. This is not that we are at war much longer than the president said. And this is him as a wartime president. Your view?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

This is him at a wartime president that got elected, saying we would not have wars, that he would not have engagement. So is not only that he's the wartime president, it's the opposite of what he promised the American people. That's a B is he cannot show where our interests are being served. The American people are the ones paying the higher gas prices. The American people are seeing other things increase in terms of the consumer goods and necessities they need. So, one, you told us there would not be a war. Even if I was going to adjust to you, Mr. President, because you give me a good reason. You haven't given me a good reason. And the timeline you announced keeps going further and further, further away. So how much do you expect even the most staunch Republican or MAGA person to take before they understand? I've run out of paper on these timelines and I can't afford the gas.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

You know, Molly, on the politics, I'd love to go big picture with you because, you know, what's interesting is we spent a lot of time looking ahead at elections, but it's very clear that we rarely know what the big issue is until right close to it or during the election. Right. The idea that a year or two out, you know, so I was thinking, you know, in 16 leading up to it, there were all sorts of different ideas. The truth is that Trump won the Electoral College and got. Went a long way on the wall, immigration or whatever you want to call MAGA division, which a year out wasn't what either party thought that race was gonna be about. 2020 ended up being about COVID Right. And the public seeing Donald Trump as a failure on that crisis 24, where a lot of Trump's critics thought that should have been about continuing a restoration of the post Trump era. They wanted it to be a post Trump era or that he was disqualified by his indictments and other failures, ended up being. And there's a lot of data on this about prices.

[Molly Zhang]

Yeah.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

That's what that race really boiled down to for a lot of Americans. Could the 26 midterms, instead of being about ICE or Trump or corruption or all these other things, could they end up being about this war.

[Molly Zhang]

I mean, I think they certainly could be. And remember, the prices have to do with the war because Donald Trump said in 2024, I'm going to make things cheaper for you. And people were like, great. I mean, that is that, you know, he once again got elected on economic populism, because, remember, in 2016, he was like, you're being cheated. I am for you. She is for them. Which was a similar message about other stuff, but a similar message in 24. So I do think that this war affects prices. And remember, we have no historical precedent for someone who runs for president that on two things, right? I'm going to end foreign wars. We're not going to have any more foreign wars, and I'm going to make things cheaper. And what does he do? He immediately gets into numerous foreign wars and he, you know, make end things because of those wars become more expensive.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

And let's not forget, I remember as a teenager when I started getting very active, one of the most solid presidents in the United States history, that in terms of the things I cared about was Lyndon Johnson, did the Voting Rights act, did the Civil Rights act, did open housing. What brought him down was the Vietnam War. And the same people that cheered him on were marching in the streets against the Vietnam War. One, because we didn't want war, and two, we didn't see what we were gaining. And every day we're seeing more and more. So it happens on either side of the party. These kinds of things could be your debacle. If Lyndon Johnson could not run again after all he did for civil rights and other things because of a war, I think that whomever the Republicans bring behind Trump is going to have a hard road to travel.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

It's like they always say where Rev and I grew up, fish don't have to learn how to swim. They're born in the water.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I like that.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

You like that. Could we make that stick?

[Molly Zhang]

Yes. We're doing a lot of fish things.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Do you have a fish aphorism for us?

[Molly Zhang]

Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Something.

[Molly Zhang]

Something. It's something.

[Master P]

Yeah.

[Molly Zhang]

I'll workshop it.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

The interesting thing about Rev's aphorism is the fish usually, I believe, opens its mouth because it thinks it's hunting.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

Yeah.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

And so it's trying to get the. And then it finds out that the fly was actually.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

They found out there. The hunt did.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

They had. The hunt did. So there's something there.

[Senator or Congressional Member 1]

That's right.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Okay.

[Molly Zhang]

Well, a warfare.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Yeah. We like to learn together. Rev, Molly. Thanks to both of You. We have a lot coming up in the show, including the heat on RFK Jr and alleged election meddling. The DOJ is in crisis because several of Trump's legal demands are hitting those brick walls we've told you about. The system is under strain, but at times it is holding and working. And that brings us to a very special guest. We have seen the New York Times reporters really break a lot of key stories in ways that have upset Donald Trump. We recently had two of those authors on from the Times. Well, now he is subpoenaing not only Times reporters, but their families running into problems in court. And I have a New York Times reporter next.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard. I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dave Farenthold]

Normally in these ads, you'd expect someone like me to ask you to buy something, but I want to ask you to do something different. I'm Dave Farenthal and I'm a reporter for the New York Times. I'm an investigative reporter, which means that I follow the money inside of government and outside of government. The point of my job is to find things people are trying to hide. It involves talking to lots of people. It involves looking through lots and lots of documents. And if there were folks like me to go beyond the surface to understand who is really shaping what the government does, the public will be left in the dark about what the government's doing with your tax money, what the government's doing to youth through regulations and spending. If you're like me and you think this kind of journalism is important, seek out a news source that does firsthand fact based reporting. If that's the New York Times, thank you. If that's your local paper, that's great too, because where you get your information matters.

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[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

We are tracking the growing fallout and legal pushback to Donald Trump's efforts to get the DOJ to target and allegedly harass journalists and even their families. Now, a judge has temporarily halted subpoenas that were seeking New York Times reporters, phone records. Subpoenas, we've learned, also targeted spouses and the mother of one of these journalists. And that matters a lot because if there was not a valid good faith legal reason to do so, if that was rather part of an effort at collective punishment or harassing the family members, that itself could be illegal. Now, Thursday there'll be a hearing on this. The Times says the subpoenas are a bad faith effort to intimidate the journalists and chill their ability to report on the administration. The doj, for its part, says that the subpoenas are about Times reports on presidential security and that they have a valid purpose. Now, the Times reports that the subpoenas even came before the security story about Donald Trump's gifted jet. Two of the subpoenas seek records beginning on January 1, 2026. They write long before the events that are purportedly the basis of the Department of Justice's investigation. And the prosecutor in charge of these subpoenas, Jay Clayton, just testifying before Congress last week. Did you or anybody at the Southern District of New York have conversations with anybody at the White House or the justice department in Washington, D.C. before you issued those subpoenas?

[Michael Grinbaum]

I can say it this way without

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

getting into the investigation.

[Michael Grinbaum]

The, the, the protocols require consultation.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Did anybody in Washington, D.C. suggest to you or anybody on your team that you should issue subpoenas in this case?

[Michael Grinbaum]

I'm not going to get into the details that, what I, what I can tell you is that we followed those procedures.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

So that is testimony about following procedures in general. And that speaks to at least some communication about this. The wider effort, though, by Donald Trump to go after critics and his perceived enemies may undercut their ability to make these subpoenas stick in Trump and his Justice Department, targeting all kinds of media organizations and prominent media figures, as we can see there. And all of this is happening alongside major shifts in media. The Ellison family is trying to get its merger approved so it would actually take control of CNN and other properties. The effort did hit a small legal snag, we should note. A federal judge has paused the merger for two weeks pursuant to states suing to try to block it entirely. And as Trump's DOJ goes after the New York Times reportedly because he didn't like their stories even when true, he's also been very public about what in any other era would be seen as itself a confession or a scandal that he views the people taking over these companies, the Ellison's getting cnn, for example, as a chance to have a good owner, change the editorial coverage.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

You have some good companies bidding on it. I think the people that have run CNN for the last long period of time are a disgrace. I think it's imperative that CNN be so the fake news, like cnn, like the New York Times and like others, have abused our people. Wait a minute. Be quiet. Have abused our people so badly and you should be ashamed of yourself does such false reporting. But now they have new ownership, so maybe it'll straighten it out. I doubt it. But it's hard to straighten garbage out.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

It's hard to straighten garbage out. Well, that's his opinion. The new ownership he referred to have completed the deal, but it's still under this legal oversight and now at least paused for two weeks with this review. The concern is that we have a government abusing power to change what you see and hear to distort the very fundamental protections of the First Amendment so that you, the American public, if I may be so grandiose, can hear everything freely and make up your own mind. And against that backdrop, we have very credible allegations that the subpoenas of the New York Times, another important independent outlet, are not actually to solve crimes, which under law would be okay, but potentially may be the kind of bad faith harassment that means it's the DOJ allegedly and not the New York Times that might be in the wrong. We have a New York Times journalist on this Big story next. We see this, though, as an attempt to intimidate the journalists and the Times itself. And we're going to continue to report both about Air Force One and on the circumstances around the government use of prosecutorial power to intimidate the independent news media. That's the view from the New York Times in this major clash with the Trump administration. And we have a special guest tonight. Michael Grinbaum is the media correspondent for the New York Times. He has reported on the Trump DOJ's dealings in this and other matters, including the subpoenas to his colleagues. He's also the author of Empire of the Elite, Inside Conde Nast, the Media Dynasty that Reshaped America, which is coming to paperback this week. Michael, you are in the role of media on media, including your own colleagues, while still trying to do it fairly. But really one of the most perfect guests we could have on this. What is going on in this case and what does the Times need to show to beat back what, what to a lot of the evidence looks like harassment.

[Michael Grinbaum]

So all eyes are on Thursday in the federal courthouse in Manhattan, where the judge is going to hold the first open arguments about the Times motion to quash the subpoenas. The Times is laid out in great detail that the process by which these subpoenas were issued, their argument is that it was rushed. There's actually some details in this motion that FBI agents with sidearms holstered, not drawn, but showed up in the driveways of these reporters to serve the subpoenas on a Friday night, basically 24 hours after the Times published its exclusive report on the security concerns involving Trump's new Qatari Air Force One jet. So both the speed by which the government jumped to the action of subpoenaing independent journalists, as opposed to gathering a list of potential leakers within the government, taking the steps that the DOJ typically would under its own guidelines, to smoke out leakers within the bureaucracy, all of that appears to have been expedited, or perhaps we'll find out soon, jumped over to go directly after these Times journalists, who, by the way, many of whom Trump has insulted by name over the years. There's a lot of evidence of the president on Truth Social in his comments himself going after the Times denouncing these individual reporters for the journalism that they've done about his federal government. So the Times is effectively arguing that this was the result of an enraged president who called his FBI director, by the way, directly into the White House to oversee the leak investigation. Again, about 24 hours after the article first appeared.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Well, as the kids say, Nixon could never. By which I mean, he didn't get this far. You know, there are tapes of him trying to hint and cajole to get the enemy to get Haldeman to get then. But you're pointing out, you know, no, you got the actual FBI director, Aiden here doing the bidding as if he's the hatchet man. Nixon had a lot more scuffling to get there. You're covering this. You care about your colleagues, but you cover this objectively as a journalist.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I do.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

So go ahead, Putin.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Nope. So this all broke, you know, the subpoenas starting being issued around 7pm last Friday night. You know, by 9 o', clock, you know, we had learned about it within the newsroom and were putting up our first story. Now, I've been in touch with the Justice Department, in touch with the U.S. attorney's office in Manhattan. Their contention, as Jay Clayton in the earlier segment was saying, is that this is an issue of serious, significant national security. That the president at the time of this publication was flying over international airspace coming back from his trip from Turkey, and that the disclosure of this information would have created some sort of risk for not just the president, but with the press corps, with the senior administration officials who were traveling with him on the plane. They do, however, keep going back to this idea that there's a national security concern without really specifying it in too much detail.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Well, and disclosure is a word for leak. If there are accurate leaks from inside the government, what the administration is effectively saying is they have leakers, they want to find them. And this is a method for that. And I want to show what they're up against in court because Donald Trump's rants and posts, as you mentioned, may doom these subpoenas. There is law on this. In the famous Supreme Court case of Bransburg, official harassment of the press undertaken not for purposes of law enforcement, but to disrupt a reporter's relationship with news sources would have, the court noted, no justification. In essence, if you boil it down, no harassment of newsmen will be tolerated, the court said, even while recognizing the right to do these kind of leak investigations I mentioned. And then our final slide here, and you can respond is look at the facts in this case issued in this rushed 48 hours, which you mentioned includes family members, which could be of a harassing nature. Reporting also from your paper said that Trump was enraged by the original article and onward. So based on this, do you think that the government has a tough road of claiming this wasn't harassing?

[Michael Grinbaum]

So I don't want to make too many predictions because, you know, media case law, we've seen a lot of fascinating decisions in the Trump era. And by the way, we know that juries around the country, the country are much less sympathetic to the independent press these days. I mean, the reputation of the media has eroded. There's often, you know, defamation suits that go against news organizations. Now in this case, we have a judge in Manhattan who's going to be assessing this. I think that the Times has laid out a pretty stunning series of procedural irregularities on the part of the doj. I want to say something about the family members numbers. At first, we only knew that reporters were being compelled to testify in front of a grand jury. To your point, journalists are not could be.

[OpportunityAtWork Ad Voice]

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[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Yeah.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Immune from that. From testifying.

[Dave Farenthold]

Yes.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

If in good faith. Yep.

[Michael Grinbaum]

It turned out, and the government only disclosed this days later, that phone records had also been subpoenaed from third party phone providers, not just for the journalists involved who wrote the stories. In one case, for a journalist's mother who is a psychotherapist in private practice. In one case, the spouse of a journalist who is in a senior role at a major law firm, potentially including sensitive personal, professional messages. In this dragnet of messages exchanged by Times journalists and their relatives, it suggests the pattern of a rushed operation. There was clumsiness, numbers were included that were not directly tied to these journalists. And and also as the Times has argued most glaringly, even after this judge in Manhattan District Court was engaged in this case, was discussing with the parties the motion to quash the subpoenas for the grand jury, the DOJ was separately going to a different judge, asking that judge to put a gag order on the fact that the DOJ had subpoenaed the third party provision.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Right. Which is secretive. It's suspicious. And again, the question which we're going to look at be watching on Thursday is whether this looks more like a harassment campaign because that runs afoul of the rules. An even slightly more organized DOJ might have planned for that. It looks like they didn't. And this goes to both the danger but also the kind of rushed incompetence of quarterbacking this right out of the president's office, Oval Office. Michael Grinbaum, thanks for joining us here from the New York Times. Very close to it. That book out on paperback this week is Empire of the Elite. We had Michael on when it first came out. If you're interested in the interesting up and down of media, that's a book to read. When we come back, we turn to RFK Jr. S latest problem, the meddling. A lot going on, but we're still making time to fall back with two very special guests. Molly Jonk Fast is back. She's of course with the New York Times and hosts Fast Politics podcast. She has that memoir, how to Lose youe Mother, which is also out on paperback. That's a theme today. And back on the beat, founder of the iconic no Limit Records is Master P. You know we are about it bout it and happy to have him back in New Orleans native was the first hip hop artist inducted in the Louisiana Music hall of fame, 14 studio albums, some of them platinum. And of course returned with another former B cast burn Birdman in verses.

[Master P]

Yeah,

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

give it to Birdman he started that stunt.

[OpportunityAtWork Ad Voice]

You know, I started that stuff.

[Senator or Congressional Member 1]

Guess what?

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

I was uptown too, and I started that 1k Alanis show, Make them say huh. And that went so well. The two are teaming up, bringing their labels together and going on this cash money no limit tour in September. Welcome to both of you. Nice to see you again.

[Master P]

Yes, yes. I'm happy to be here.

[Molly Zhang]

I'm happy. Our new friendship.

[Master P]

Yeah, it's all good.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Well, we love seeing people make friends. You're the veteran, so we can go to you first. What's on your fallback list?

[Molly Zhang]

So, RFK Jr. Besides creating a lot of chaos when it comes to vaccines and an NHS research and all sorts of carnage. And in fact, today he also, you know, they're holding a. They're holding grants for Medicaid and Medicare for Minnesota and for California, and probably the states are going to have to go to court. But also, he may have violated the Hatch act by getting involved in interfering in congressional races. This is not how any of this is supposed to work. Really. Good day for RFK Jr. Yeah, he's

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

under a lot of pressure. He also has the gall to talk about meritocracy and attack DEI when Jon Stewart pointed out this week he's this Nepo baby. Take a look at this moment.

[Vivgard Hytrulo Advertisement Voice]

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[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Meritocracy. So that's what's going on for Kennedy. What's on your fallback list?

[Master P]

My fallback list is the latest in the berries. They gotta fall back. We can't even eat lettuce and berries. I mean, what's going on? This is America. We love lettuce and berries.

[Molly Zhang]

Well, it's an RFK Jr. Right. Because they're not doing the kind of surveilling of foodborne pathogens as they are supposed to. They've cut programs in that kind of thing.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

People are rattled about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Master P]

I was having some breakfast this morning and I'm looking, I'm like, they put berries on. I don't think I want it.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Right. You start thinking. I mean, I. I feel both ways. Because, of course, you got to be safe.

[Molly Zhang]

Yeah.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

You know, if you're in a big city and you get into Uber.

[Molly Zhang]

Yes.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

That's still a higher risk rate of an accident than that. You're going to be caught up in this.

[Michael Grinbaum]

But.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

But it's a big deal.

[Master P]

Yeah.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

You're. You're in the food business. Yeah.

[Master P]

So I'm gonna just eat my noodles and do my chips. The rap snacks.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Now what? Tell us about the Barbie barbecue and honey queuing.

[Master P]

But yeah, it's the queue and it's.

[Molly Zhang]

Can we try them?

[Master P]

Yeah, I'm a little. Try something.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

So, I mean, Molly, if anyone game.

[Molly Zhang]

I'm game, man. Oh, they're nice and they're a nice color.

[Master P]

We got flavor.

[Molly Zhang]

Delicious.

[Master P]

Go.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Good.

[Master P]

We getting ready for the tour.

[Molly Zhang]

I love it. They're very.

[Master P]

I love it.

[Molly Zhang]

They're very sweet. They're both sweet and extremely salty.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Oh, you're feeling the salt.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

Yeah.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Oh, man.

[Molly Zhang]

My feeling.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

Oh, man.

[Molly Zhang]

Yeah.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Oh my.

[Molly Zhang]

They're very salty. These are a very salty chip.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Now, this kind of fits in.

[Master P]

I know.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

The other thing on your fallback list, Molly, is how expensive it is this summer.

[Molly Zhang]

Yes. And that other.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Other items.

[Molly Zhang]

And that was, remember again, inflation. Major issue in the 24 cycle. I think it's going to be a major issue in the midterm. And, you know, people are not being able to afford vacations. And again, this is a regulatory issue to some extent. Right. Like the FIFA soccer ticket prices. These are things that can be controlled by government, especially pricing.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

They're calling it Funflation. Do you see this? I mean, things are getting more and more expensive. We had a president who promised the opposite, you know.

[Master P]

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely getting more and more expensive. And that's why we are constantly creating products. And I feel like another fallback for me is these corporate gatekeepers.

[Molly Zhang]

Yeah.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Keeping people out of. Diversifying Wall Street.

[Master P]

Diversifying Wall Street. And we have to get back. I just went to Tulsa where black Wall street is and seen that Oasis is a black owned grocery store and saying, wow, this is how we bridge the wealth gap. We need more independent thinkers, more out of the box thinkers to be able to say, hey, you know, well, let's create some more business. That way the poverty can go away.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

And you always had that mindset because you were an artist, but you were also running the label at the time. Yes.

[Master P]

Yeah. No, at the time, being able to put out Snoop Dogg. She didn't know that I was able to, you know, put out Snoop Dogg and be behind his career. But he's shooting a movie now.

[Molly Zhang]

That's right.

[Master P]

And I'm working on my new movie. It's called Only Go at the Judgment. It's going to be the first street and Faith based movie.

[Molly Zhang]

Respect and faith is a big part of.

[Master P]

Yeah, I mean, and giving back, you know, we've been giving back for over 30 years and to be able now to see my kids, my son playing for the University of Houston. And I can't wait to be able to go to his games and watch his games.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Love that.

[Master P]

You know, they're one of the top teams in the country.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

And Molly will tell you, only God could judge me is a Tupac wrestler.

[Molly Zhang]

Yes, of course.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

Featuring.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Featuring I believe rap and forte.

[Master P]

Yes.

[Molly Zhang]

Yes. I am very knowledgeable about this particular subject. But you did say that I'm running out of time. But quickly, you did say that your team, the team you coached, played against your son's team.

[Master P]

We didn't do too good.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Well, but on that note, and we love you carrying it through the family masterpiece coming back. Molly, thank you. We'll be right back.

[Master P]

Yes.

[MSNBC Host or Anchor]

Thanks for spending time with us on the beat. We tried to cover a lot. That's our time. I'll see you tomorrow at 6pm Eastern.

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