Jack Smith Speaks Out In First Interview

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Jack Smith Speaks Out In First Interview"

The Beat with Ari Melber
Host: Ari Melber (MS NOW)
Date: July 2, 2026
Featured Guests: Jack Smith, Nicole Wallace, Emily Bazelon, Rick Wilson, Molly Jong-Fast, Susie Essman

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Overview

This special episode centers on Jack Smith breaking his silence in his first televised interview since becoming the first prosecutor to ever indict a sitting or former U.S. president—twice. Conducted by Nicole Wallace and analyzed by Ari Melber and guests, this wide-ranging episode delves into Smith’s views on the January 6th prosecutions, the implications of presidential pardons, threats to the Justice Department, and the growing erosion of legal and institutional norms. It also features broader reflections on political accountability, free speech, government corruption, satire, and the crucial role of public servants during unprecedented challenges to democracy.

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Key Segments and Insights

1. Jack Smith’s First Televised Interview: Context & Stakes

[00:57–01:34]

• Ari Melber frames the historic nature of the moment: Smith is the only prosecutor to indict a president, and he is now addressing the public on record about cases with profound political and legal implications.
• The interview touches on the January 6th events, presidential pardons, and threats to law enforcement and democracy.

2. The Cost of Impunity and Pardons for January 6 Rioters

[01:34–02:28]

• Nicole Wallace asks about the costs of failing to hold perpetrators accountable.
• Jack Smith: Emphasizes both the public safety and symbolic dangers of pardoning January 6th rioters, arguing it sends a clear anti-law enforcement message.
  • "Supporting law enforcement should not be a political issue." – Jack Smith [01:56]
• Ari Melber interprets Smith’s argument on recidivism: Without accountability, perpetrators are likely to reoffend, and the president’s actions are undermining deterrence.

3. Election Integrity, State Officials, and Public Pressure

[03:23–04:46]

• Smith expresses deep concern over future elections, emphasizing that state-level actors and election workers are now frontline defenders of democracy.
  • "The last time around we saw that those people stood firm and they were in many cases the difference." – Jack Smith [03:38]
• Smith draws on his experience leading the DOJ’s Public Integrity Section to underline the threats and pressure faced by non-partisan election officials.

4. On DOJ Retaliation and Meritless "Enemies List" Cases

[06:10–06:39]

• Smith condemns Trump’s alleged pursuit of revenge prosecutions and lack of legal merit in cases against figures like James Comey, Letitia James, and Jerome Powell.
  • "The only reasonable explanation is the President has it out for these people and he has people... who are going to do what he says regardless of the facts or law." – Jack Smith [06:10]
• Melber and guests stress Smith’s nonpartisan credentials and the severity of politicized prosecution.

5. Smith Confronts Personal Threats and Trump’s Rhetoric

[10:02–10:52]

• Nicole Wallace asks if Smith expects to be indicted as Trump has threatened.
• Smith remains unapologetically focused on his work and his team’s integrity:
  • "I honestly do not spend a lot of time thinking about the things he says about me... I did my job the right way. I had an all star team..." – Jack Smith [10:05]
• Emily Bazelon and Rick Wilson discuss the personal and professional toll on DOJ agents and the contrast between Smith and the Trump-era DOJ.

6. Legacy, Personal Principle, and Refusing Intimidation

[13:15–14:08]

• Smith reflects on leadership and legacy, stating he wants to act so his children will be proud and that intimidation will not silence him:
  • "Anyone can put anything on you, but you have a choice about the attitude you take... There’s no way I’m going to be intimidated." – Jack Smith [13:15, 14:08]
• Rick Wilson: "Americans are desperate to see that kind of integrity in their government again, that kind of modest humility... coupled with absolutely ironclad courage." [14:28]

7. The Breakdown of Trust in the DOJ and Courts

[17:04–17:56]

• Smith details how politicization has led courts to distrust DOJ representations, undermining essential "presumption of regularity."
  • "Judges... say they can't trust prosecutors anymore, and that has such a cascading effect on any sort of case." – Jack Smith [17:04]
• Emily Bazelon elaborates on the erosion of rule-of-law norms and the ramifications for democracy and the legal system.

8. Free Speech, the First Amendment, and Incitement

[21:28–23:01]

• Smith distinguishes between protected speech and criminal acts committed through speech, referencing Supreme Court precedent:
  • "There is rock solid Supreme Court precedent that you cannot just use speech to commit a crime... a bribe is usually communicated in words." – Jack Smith [22:10]

9. Trump’s Business Dealings, Corruption, and Public Reaction

[23:01–26:07]

• Ari Melber outlines new corruption allegations: self-enrichment in office, sons’ investments in defense firms, and possible insider trading tied to tariff policy. Emphasizes widespread disapproval even among conservatives.
• Listeners hear from voters and guests expressing frustration over the appearance of profiteering at the expense of democratic trust.

10. Satire, Free Expression, and Political Repression

[29:11–31:56]

• Molly Jong-Fast and Susie Essman reflect on the chilling effect of the Trump administration on comedians and late-night hosts, drawing parallels to authoritarian crackdowns on dissent.
  • "Any totalitarian regime, the first thing that goes is comedy... That is the slippery slope we never want to go down." – Susie Essman [30:09]
  • "We have seen this administration really act out towards comedians. And again, this, this tracks with Putin's Russia." – Molly Jong-Fast [31:06]
• The importance of defending the First Amendment amid political threats is emphasized by all guests.

11. Closing: Celebrating Satire & U.S. History

[32:35–35:40]

• A lighthearted discussion about Susie Essman's new comedy project with Larry David and Barack Obama underscores the role of satire in American culture and the unique power of the First Amendment.
  • "There is no greater power than satire. I think satire is one of the greatest powers that we have. You take that away and what do you have? Mimes. That's it." – Susie Essman [31:56]
• Ari Melber wraps with thoughts on the enduring need for both seriousness in government and subversive humor in arts.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• "Supporting law enforcement should not be a political issue."
  — Jack Smith [01:56]

• "If you let people get away with it, they'll do it again... For the first time in the modern era, it's the president undercutting [deterrence] under behalf of criminals."
  — Ari Melber summarizing Jack Smith [02:28]

• "The last time around... election workers... were in many cases the difference. It's clear... those people are going to be put under great pressure."
  — Jack Smith [03:38]

• "I mean, right there, there's not criminality here... The only reasonable explanation is the President has it out for these people and he has people who are his former personal lawyers who are going to do what he says regardless of the facts or law."
  — Jack Smith [06:10]

• "There’s no way I’m going to be intimidated."
  — Jack Smith [14:08]

• "Judges... say they can't trust prosecutors anymore... Trust that's been built over generations has been lost in days. Right. And that's happening every day."
  — Jack Smith [17:04]

• “There is rock solid Supreme Court precedent that you cannot just use speech to commit a crime... a bribe is usually communicated in words.”
  — Jack Smith [22:10]

• “Any totalitarian regime, the first thing that goes is comedy... That is the slippery slope we never want to go down.”
  — Susie Essman [30:09]

• “There is no greater power than satire. I think satire is one of the greatest powers that we have. You take that away and what do you have? Mimes. That's it.”
  — Susie Essman [31:56]

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Key Takeaways

• Jack Smith asserts the rule of law is under historic threat—from presidential pardons sending dangerous messages, to ongoing politicized “revenge” prosecutorial efforts.
• Rebuilding public trust is urgent, especially as both law enforcement and courts face deepening suspicion amid perceived politicization.
• Public servants and election officials are crucial bulwarks, and the American people must support those upholding democracy under unprecedented pressure.
• The difference between protected speech and criminal speech is essential in political prosecutions, as Smith stresses First Amendment rights do not protect crimes perpetrated through words.
• Corruption and profiteering at the highest levels erode public trust, crossing partisan lines and raising serious questions of legality and governance norms.
• Satire and free expression serve as canaries in the coal mine for democratic health—when comedians and journalists are silenced, it signals a much deeper crisis.
• The episode closes with a reminder that defending democracy requires both sober realism and a sense of humor about American imperfections.

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This summary captures the heart of the conversation—a sweeping, candid airing of America’s legal, political, and cultural crossroads, delivered in conversational, urgent, and occasionally humorous tones by Ari Melber, Jack Smith, and their guests.

Transcript

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[Ari Melber]

We are going to continue coverage of what is a bombshell interview. It happened on Nicole's show on Ms. Now, but I can tell you as someone in the news, if it were a front page New York Times interview or a big 60 Minutes interview as it might have been in a different decade, we'd be all over the clips excerpts as well because we have now for the first time, the first prosecutor to ever indict a president, Jack Smith, who ultimately did it twice because he said the evidence supported it, speaking out in his first journalistic interview included about those controversial January 6th parties.

[Nicole Wallace]

What do you say about the facts that you developed that you see? I know you don't watch a ton of news, but you see enough to know that the basic principle of recidivism likely applies to the election case. The things that you charged are a lot of the same kinds of stories we cover. What is the cost of someone not being held accountable for their crimes?

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, I mean, if you talk about the pardons of these people convicted for the violence on January 6th. Right. There's all sorts of costs. There's the obvious cost of just recidivism. These are people who committed their crimes in the name and in the interest of Donald Trump and he's returned the favor. Right. By pardoning them, that sends one message to them. A message I'm equally concerned about is the message that it sends to law enforcement. Supporting law enforcement should not be a political issue.

[Ari Melber]

Jack Smith speaking forthrightly there on two points. The Second, as you heard, is that Donald Trump sided with violent criminals over police, that he is an anti police president. The pardon is a power that the president constitutionally has. No one is saying that it was itself illegal. Smith is saying, however, that it is anti police, anti law enforcement. The first point he made was admittedly a little more legalistic. He referred to recidivism. What he's saying in plain English is if you let people get away with it, they'll do it again. And that maybe Donald Trump wants to do it again to have another violent insurrection or other violent crime committed on his behalf. Recidivism is why you have strong penalties and deterrence under the law, something that prosecutors like Smith basically devote their lives to. And he's saying for the first time in the modern era, it's the president undercutting that under behalf of criminals. He also spoke about the midterms.

[Jack Smith]

I'm very concerned of what's going to happen in the next election. Absolutely.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you see again in, in, in things that are covered and things are public facing conduct ahead of the midterms that you investigated on January in the January 6th case?

[Jack Smith]

Well, I've been thinking about it more in terms of what needs to be done based on what we saw happen last time. And you know, it's a different situation now based on, you know, the people who perpetrated January 6th, they've probably learned from how they did that. My personal view is I think the state attorney generals have a tremendous role to play here. They can make sure the rule of law functions in their state. And I would also say that I think a thing that all of us can do is support election workers and election officials. The last time around we saw that those people stood firm and they were in many cases the difference. It's clear to me anyways that what I've seen publicly that those people are going to be put under great pressure. And my experience, not only just the special counsel, but you know, I was the chief of the Public Integrity Section at the Department of Justice for five years, had number of cases with election officials. These are people also. They're not tooting their own horn. They're not self promoters. They just care about our democracy. We need to show them that we have their back.

[Ari Melber]

Smith speaking out clearly there in this new Ms. Now exclusive interview when he mentions the Public Integrity Section, which has been of course completely decimated under Donald Trump. That's the part of the DOJ that deals with the important but sensitive cases of anti corruption and potentially indicting or Prosecuting lawmakers, politically connected individuals, important politicians. To run that section, you have to have kind of the gold standard of being evidence based, nonpartisan, and having integrity. It's kind of the fulcrum of pressure inside the doj. And when he was there, for example, he pursued famously a case against Democrat John Edwards because he said the evidence supported it and ultimately, as we know, concluded that there was enough evidence to go after Donald Trump. I mentioned a case of a Democrat and Republican. So when Smith then now draws on that credibility and his entire career to assess the so called enemies list or some of the cases that the Trump DOJ has brought on his personal demand, it comes with great credibility. Most people may only know Smith from prosecuting Trump and that might even overweight how you look at him. But he is kind of like, I'm telling you, the legal gold standard for these cases. So when he says, as we just learned he did, I'm gonna play you the excerpt that so many of them lack any merit. That is kind of the ultimate slam dunk against some of the Trump DOJ's revenge cases. Take a look.

[Jack Smith]

I, from my perspective, I've seen a number of cases. James Comey, Letitia James, Jerome Powell, I mean, right there, there's not criminality here. I mean, seashells, I mean, so the only reasonable explanation is the President has it out for these people and he has people who are his former personal lawyers who are going to do what he says regardless of the facts or law.

[Ari Melber]

Going after people regardless of the law will get you a lot of trouble in court, might get your case tossed. And if some of those folks are doing it knowingly below the legal standard of what it takes to indict someone, they could be disbarred or worse. Jack Smith, again, the expert on that. So that's not nothing. And for those who say, well, when is it going to matter? Well, it could matter very soon if Congress changes hands. And it could matter a lot in just over two years if the White House and DOJ changes hands. He's sort of telling you how it is tonight. Now, I want to just remind everyone we are here in an extraordinary place. A few years ago, it would have been unthinkable that a prosecutor would be on television talking about not one, but two federal cases against a former President. It had never happened before. So let's remember how we got here, because what started out with lawsuits turned ultimately into the insurrection in the 2020 plus plots. Some of them we've marked for you green or yellow, because they were effectively legally allowed. But as Trump got more desperate and those things didn't work, when you get to the Congress overturning votes, the requests on Pence, the aborted plan to have a military plot or coup, and then ultimately the final era, we all know the illegal sabotage of January 6, those were the plots that accrued. And Smith ultimately was tapped as one of these special counsels with extra independence to pursue them. And as you know, I'll remind you, as we plotted this, he indicted many of them and won convictions against we saw at the state level over the overlapping plots. The federal cases, of course, were truncated by the Supreme Court. Now we have special guests tonight with Jack Smith breaking his silence in this newsworthy interview. Emily Bazelon, Rick Wilson are here. We're back together in 90 seconds.

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[Ari Melber]

We're back with New York Times Emily Bazelon and longtime Republican strategist Rick Wilson on this Jack Smith interview. I want to play this key part where he again, first time in a journalistic televised setting, responded to some of these Trump threats.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you expect to be indicted?

[Jack Smith]

Listen, I Donald Trump has made a bunch of statements.

[Nicole Wallace]

He said he would indict you. Yes.

[Jack Smith]

I'll tell you, Nicole, I honestly do not spend a lot of time thinking about the things he says about me and his threats about me. I'm real focused on the people who I worked with looking out for them. I'm real focused on how the Justice Department's going to be better going forward, things like that. In my situation, I did my job the right way. I had an all star team. I mean, Nicole, the agents on my case, if I were to walk you through all the awards they've won throughout, you know, generations of administrations, we would be here all night. These were superstars. And I'm much more concerned that those people get to serve in the department, get to serve in the bureau again someday.

[Ari Melber]

Emily, your view on what Smith is saying tonight?

[Emily Bazelon]

Well, I'm glad for his mental health that Donald Trump is not taking up a lot of space in his head. And I've interviewed some of the FBI agents who worked with him and, you know, they both live up to his description of their resumes and the work they did and the nonpartisan way that they approach their jobs. But also some of them really have suffered, you know, both in terms of the loss of their jobs, but also the way that they have just been, you know, raked through the coals by the maga right on social media. So I think from their point of view, I'm sure they were watching. And knowing that Jack Smith is thinking about them will mean something to them, I'm sure.

[Ari Melber]

Rick, your thoughts?

[Rick Wilson]

You know, I think what you saw tonight, Ari, was a kind of public servant that is almost entirely lacking inside the Republican universe these days in the Trump administration. And it also reminded me that every accusation on the Trump side of weaponization is a projection. He's the kind of professional that Americans should have great confidence in. I wish he'd been able to speak out sooner in some part because the Republican effort to demonize him as some sort of political operative, which is completely untrue, was ongoing until almost this moment where you saw somebody who was a professional who went out to pursue justice and the law, not a political end, as the Blanche Patel and others in the DOJ of today do.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, we all have. I had conversations about this era we're living through, what people do, journalists playing one role, people who are direct in politics playing another. And I thought it was interesting to hear someone like him who's faced these threats, who I'll just share briefly. When I was in the courtroom for the case on the January six issues in federal D.C. and he was on one side, I remember Todd, Blanche was on the other with that team. And I'm watching them. And it was the largest security retinue I'd ever seen for a non Attorney general, for any prosecutor. And it spoke to the fact that even in the sanctum of that highly fortified federal D.C. courtroom, to say nothing of how he moved around the country, there was tremendous threat and protection for that threat. And so now he faces these other risks. And I give that context to listening to him tell, tell Nicole this.

[Jack Smith]

Anyone can put anything on you, but you have a choice about the attitude you take. For me, and I think a lot of the people that I've worked with, our view is I want to behave now in a way that my kids will be proud. I want to act in a way that when I'm retired, I look back on this time and say I did things right. I think a lot of people relate to that and I think it's understandable. And I think if we start aligning actions with our beliefs, it's a huge, huge step. I think one of the things I've seen, which is the sort of journey I've been on, is with me being targeted by the President. You get to find out who's who, right? You get to find out who runs towards the fire, who kind of backs away. It's difficult in the moment, but I think for the future, that's going to be really helpful to know.

[Nicole Wallace]

Are you afraid to be speaking out?

[Jack Smith]

No, not at all. I'm not. I am not going to be intimidated. And there's no way in the world, if the thought was to go after me so that I wouldn't speak up about the corruption that's happening or speak up to defend these agents and prosecutors, that is a grave miscalculation. There is no way I'm going to be intimidated.

[Rick Wilson]

Rick, Americans are desperate to see that kind of integrity in their government again, that kind of modest humility about who he is coupled with absolutely ironclad courage. It's something Americans, I think, are desperate to see. I think this is a really important interview for so many reasons, but that's probably the chief among them.

[Ari Melber]

Emily.

[Emily Bazelon]

You know, it's also important because it has still been relatively unusual for former prosecutors, former important Justice Department officials to speak up. And there's just an allergy, really, in the whole profession to being a media presence. You're just not supposed to do your work that way. What you say in court is supposed to speak for you. But I think Rick is right. These voices are really important right now. And having a television interview is the vehicle that allows a lot of people to see, you know, what you have to say in this Moment. And so I wonder if Jack Smith, you know, presenting in this way will also open the door to more former Justice Department officials and FBI folks to come forward in the same way.

[Ari Melber]

Well, Emily, you know, you can't take a lawyer seriously if they want to be on tv.

[Emily Bazelon]

Present company accepted, Ari.

[Ari Melber]

Well, that's the joke. I think that you're exactly right about what I would call traditional legal culture, especially at Main justice at doj. And a lot of those folks come out of that. And then Nicole and I discussed this earlier. He's also come around. I think you're right. I mean, I'm analyzing something that we're a part of. Cause he chose to speak to our colleague because he respects her show. Because I could tell the audience the interview requests have been in for Jack Smith from everyone, print, television, everyone. And this is where he came. But having said that, he clearly wants to reach people in this medium, which was anathema to him for most of his DOJ career. So he. He alluded to. He said directly, things are changing, and you got to reach people where they are. And he wants the facts to get out there. And we are a phone video world. We are not just a long DOJ report world, let alone reading print newspapers every day. The world's changing before our eyes, and Trump has obviously mastered the propaganda side. So I think that's really interesting. He said so much I want to show before I lose both of you. The other thing he said about the DOJ's process itself breaking down under the basically impossible demands of Bondi and now acting AG Blanche, take a look at

[Jack Smith]

one of the problems right today, besides the retribution prosecutions, is that the Justice Department can't do its job. Right. If you go to court.

[Nicole Wallace]

Explain that.

[Jack Smith]

Well, if you go to court and the judges don't trust you, you can't do the basic things that you need to do to represent the American people in court. And we have seen judges across the country say they can't trust prosecutors anymore, and that has such a cascading effect on any sort of case. And, you know, I can't count how many opinions, but one opinion like that in my career would have been seismic. People could not, would not know what to do if a court said, you know, trust that's been built over generations has been lost in days. Right. And that's happening every day. And so regardless of what you think, politically, they're just not effective at doing their job anymore.

[Ari Melber]

Emily, what's he getting at there?

[Emily Bazelon]

Well, he's talking about, you know, something that's foundational to the rule of law that judges and lawyers sometimes call the presumption of regularity. And what that is is like you go to the court, you represent the government, the judge is going to trust how you represent the facts. They're going to assume that you are telling the truth, you are dependable. And Jack Smith is right. There have been a lot of judges throwing up their hands in court and saying, wait a second, Justice Department lawyer, you just told me something that's not true. I can see you redacted a grand jury transcript. You're basically trying to mislead. Now what do I do? Because if I have to question everything the government presents in court, it's going to take a long time. It's going to change the whole way that we think about these cases and adjudicate them. It's a big gift to the defense in a lot of cases. But it really changes how court works for the government.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And it's a point that's completely nonpartisan. Rick, I'm running over on time, but it's about something that you and others have diagnosed. The first order Trump problems seem to be all about him. The second order are the decay of systems and institutions. It doesn't mean they're going right or left. It means they're actually just not working.

[Rick Wilson]

Yeah. And I think what Smith said a couple of times during the interview was that there has to be a path to reform DOJ in a post Trump era. And that's going to be a big challenge. And it will be, I think, getting back to that assumption of regularity, getting back to the assumption that the rule of law obtains universally inside the government is something that is gonna take an awful lot of work, which. Which Smith, I think correctly identified in that interview.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

Rick and Emily rolling with us on this big news night. Thanks to both of you. We have even more parts of it if you wanna dig in or see some new things. We didn't air in this hour. That's coming up later. But we're also turning to the heat, even from the right on Donald Trump's enrichment and corruption issues. That's next

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[Ari Melber]

We're following several stories tonight, including the one that was truly exclusive breaking news on our colleague Nicole Wallace's show just hours back at 5pm Jack Smith speaking out in his first television interview about a whole range of topics, including something we haven't aired in this hour yet, the First Amendment and how yes, you have free speech, but that doesn't mean that the words you use to actually incite a riot, which is a classic example, or commit other crimes. Doesn't mean that is always okay.

[Nicole Wallace]

Speech in furtherance of crimes is not protected. I mean, how much do you think people should just be monitoring and tracking the things people are saying out loud in terms of stealing the midterms?

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, I mean, and that's maybe a good point for your viewers is there is rock solid Supreme Court precedent that you cannot just use speech to commit a crime. Fraud particular, there's a specific case on it. And so obviously people have a first Amendment right. And I think we made clear in our indictment that we respect First Amendment rights. It's certainly important to me that we not charge a case that would in essence be violating someone rights. But that doesn't mean that you can't commit crimes through words. Happens all the time when a Ponzi scheme person is bilking someone out of their life savings. They're doing it with words. That's how that's done. All sorts of financial crimes, all sorts of corruption crimes. A bribe is usually communicated in words. That happens all the time. And in a lot of ways, this case was no different.

[Ari Melber]

Smith's, of course, addressing a lot of the different criticism he's gotten. And really, as we've discussed in this hour, and as I just discussed with Nicole, using his voice even against the extraordinary threats that he's faced, to try to reason with the American public to share his track record and facts and defend the rule of law, which he says is under attack like never before. That's a little bit more of his newsworthy remarks. As I promised, though, we have a lot more in this hour, including the mounting scrutiny on Trump and his family over the billions that he's reaping. That's too much even for some on the right. There are all kinds of ways to try to look at Donald Trump's business, the way he's claimed he's got all this money, but also how poor he's been at making money. Because one of the weird parts of this corruption scandal he's in with the $2 billion he took in in his first year as president is that it's so much more money usually makes. Which shows that whatever people think about his business acumen, the Delta, the gap between what he was making and what he makes now is kind of the price of the grift, the graph, the corruption, whatever you want to call it. Remember, he's not supposed to be working full time at any of that stuff. He's supposed to be doing the presidency full time. The self enrichment, the profits continue to rock the White House. This week, Ms. Now reports that the two eldest sons are linked to investments in defense firms that have drawn over 3 billion in federal funds just since Trump took office. The brothers say that they don't play a role in managing those contracts. Of course, that's not the accusation. The accusation is that Trump and the people around him know to funnel money towards his sons, even if they don't ask for it. The normally conservative Wall Street Journal editorial board says it's hard to believe the Trump boys would be able to do the same deals if dad wasn't in the Oval Office. And the financial disclosures show the over $2 billion in one year alone. There's also new reporting today that in April, Trump made over 300 stock trades. The day before, he paused the tariffs and he knew he was going to pause the tariffs. In other Circles, this would be illegal insider trading. People do go to jail for this kind of thing. The next day, those stocks posted one of the biggest single day gains since World War II. The question is whether Donald Trump is profiting off the presidency and whether he's making moves to profit himself and his family over the good of the American public. I cannot repeat enough that these things are illegal and people go to jail for them. If you do them in the corporate context and in some other local government context, Trump voters, a lot of them don't like it. Some defend him, some sounding off.

[Rick Wilson]

Somebody's making money on the side.

[Ari Melber]

It's not me.

[Rick Wilson]

I don't think one person should have

[Ari Melber]

that kind of power to make that

[Rick Wilson]

kind of money, especially when he's in public office.

[Ari Melber]

Did he come to me and my expectations?

[Thumbtack Advertiser]

Absolutely not.

[Jack Smith]

Where did he fall short of your expectations?

[Ari Melber]

He definitely made lots of promises and he made them seem like they were going to come a lot quicker, faster than they actually were to ever come or ever will come. The crypto ventures have been profitable for just about Trump and nobody else. So many of his fans losing what they call a fortune. Two thirds of investors in the meme coin are in the red. So the majority of people who like Donald Trump enough, who trust him enough to put their money in, are losing money while he reaps these profits. The backlash continues. We will see whether people act on it in November. Now we have something very special coming up after the break, including Molly Jong Fast and our friend Curb vet Suzy Essman. A long week as we get towards July 4th, and that means it's a little, little time for some fun and to fall back. We have two very special guests tonight. Molly Jong Fast returns, the msnow analyst and New York Times contributing writer, host of the Fastballs podcast. She's got a best selling memoir out how to Lose youe Mother out on paperback. And a triumphant return by Susie Essman. The comic, the actress, the curve vet. We love. She started out doing stand up and went on to play Susie Green on HBO's Curb. Like all things Curb, we don't know. Is it her? Is it a little bit of her? Is it none of her? But we love all the iconic moments. Oh, God.

[Susie Essman]

I know. You took the doll's head. Where is it? Where's the head?

[TextNow Advertiser]

I don't know.

[Susie Essman]

The kid is home hysterical because her doll Judy has been decapitated. All right, just get me the head. All right. Get me the head. All right, both of you, because I've had it in your four eyes.

[Ari Melber]

Get me the Head, A Peace Treaty. Classics. We can show you this. Larry David. Just talked to her about the new Obama collab project Life, Larry and the Pursuit of Unhappiness, an HBO show that's debuted just in time, of course, for Independence Day. All eyes on history. We'll get into that soon enough. But first of all, welcome to both of you. How you doing, Susie?

[Susie Essman]

I'm good. I'm happy to be here with Molly. Big fan of both of you. You gotta show pictures of me from 25 years ago where I look so young. That's not fair, Ari.

[Ari Melber]

You look great now. And who doesn't like to see the passage of time? I mean, that's. We've got. July 4th is all about that.

[Susie Essman]

You know, anniversaries, 250 years of perfect perfection.

[Ari Melber]

We'll see if we get to 251. Molly's a hometown hitter here, so you go first. What's on your fallback list, Molly?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Ice Picking up a nun. Just a crazy story. I mean, first of all, it just shows how over the line this administration is. They pick up this nun. She's in South Texas. Remember, Trump won a bunch of these districts in South Texas, and now he is underwater with Latino voters. He has alienated a voting bloc that Republicans thought was gonna be theirs forever. And I think they've really done it by this kind of thing, arresting nuns, you know, rounding up people who are not, by no stretch of the imagination, the worst of the worst.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. Susie, what about you? What's on your fallback list as you. As you drop by the news tonight?

[Susie Essman]

You always have to be careful of those nuns. You know, they're dangerous, dangerous people.

[Ari Melber]

You know what they're up to.

[Susie Essman]

One of pet peeves as a comedian is whenever comedy is censored, everything's in trouble. Turkey detained a comic for something that he said politically, allegedly insulting religious values. And in any totalitarian regime, the first thing that goes is comedy, because comedy is by its nature subversive and questioning the status quo. And that is the slippery slope we never want to go down. That's one of the most dangerous censorships we could ever have as censoring comedians. So that for me personally, but I think for the country as a whole, it's a bad place to go.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And, you know, Susie's point, Molly, echoes with. It can happen here. We used to get these warnings. You know, imagine if we lived in a place where the leader was trying to censor or cancel comedians because they criticize the government. And yet lately, Molly, that is where we live.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah, we saw Colbert. The Colbert show is not on air anymore. And there was real speculation that that was because of a want of regulatory approval, because, remember, the Paramount merger needed to go in front of Trump's people. And then you have to remember the Kimmel show has been taken off the air once before. So we have seen this administration really act out towards comedians. And again, this, this tracks with Putin's Russia. Right. Remember Vladimir Putin obsessed with a puppet comedy show that he took off the air. And that is why it is so important to have, remember, it is technically the First Amendment, our First Amendment rights to make fun of our politicians, Democrat or Republican.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah.

[Susie Essman]

And there is no greater power than satire. I think satire is one of the greatest powers that we have. And you take that away and what do you have? Mimes. That's it.

[Ari Melber]

And nobody wants mimes. Look, we could talk more about Trump, Susie, or we could talk about Obama and Larry David and this wonderful commemoration of our country this weekend. And I turn to that by way of introduction. Susie, I want to say Happy New Year.

[Susie Essman]

Happy New Year to you too. It's a little late.

[Ari Melber]

Happy New Year.

[Susie Essman]

But that's okay.

[Ari Melber]

It's not too late.

[Susie Essman]

As Larry.

[Ari Melber]

Well, who can be as strict as Larry? I'm making a joke that anyone who's caught the first episode might get. This is such an ingenious way that Obama, Larry, and you, of course are in an episode, are looking at our history, having fun with it, but also then getting a chance to reflect on it. And boy, do we need, I think, the better angels of our history, if you will. You did talk to Larry about it. Let's take a look at that and then discuss the project.

[Susie Essman]

Okay. President Obama is one of the producers of the show, right? Did he give you any notes?

[Ari Melber]

Jeff and I were called in for

[Jack Smith]

notes from President Obama. Now

[Ari Melber]

I really haven't gotten it.

[Susie Essman]

You don't take notes. You don't get notes. The entire time we did Curb, you

[Ari Melber]

started telling me that, I don't think this is good. I don't think this is going to work. If somebody had a good idea, I would listen to it. And I was the President of the

[Jack Smith]

United States and I said, I'm the president here.

[Ari Melber]

And he laughed. It rings true. Tell us about, tell us about this. This is your first time being on an Obama produced comedy show. We can say, tell us about it and what the uplift is as we go into this holiday.

[Susie Essman]

Honestly, Ari, he was not on set. He was not around. It's really Larry And Jeff Schaeffer's production, I know that his company, Higher Ground produced it, Michelle and Barack's company, but it wasn't like he was there on set and with the headphones on and watching at Video Village. None of that happened. So I still met him, even though I would love to. It's really Larry's skewed, very skewed take of American history. Nothing is accurate. You're not going to learn anything. You're going to laugh. That's the whole point of it. And to celebrate 250 years, the fact that we're still here is amazing. And to celebrate 250 years by making fun of everything that happened along the way. What could be better?

[Ari Melber]

And Molly exercising what I guess ties this all together, which is, you know, they made it the First Amendment for a reason. And maybe people in the arts and people in the letters and people in media like us, we talk about it extra, but without the First Amendment, you don't have much else.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Molly yeah, and especially at this moment when it's so important that we can really connect with history in an interesting and also, more importantly, hilarious way.

[Rick Wilson]

Respect.

[Susie Essman]

And also, Susie, I want to Larry takes no prisoners on this, by the way, that nothing is sacred. He takes no prisoners. There's no political correctness. He skewers certain people in a very hidden way. That's quite obvious.

[Ari Melber]

Hey, Curb never took sides. It was, it was anti everything, anti woke, anti maga, and it was just funny. Susie I was gonna say, if we had more time, I wanted to tell you about one of my dreams last night, which is another violation of Larry's bill of rights, but we're out of time.

[Susie Essman]

Susie thank you, Ari. I appreciate that. And Molly, always good to see you.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Good to see you.

[Ari Melber]

Thank you, Susie. Thanks Molly. We'll be right back. Thanks for joining us. Happy July 4th. Have a great weekend this season.

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