← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Jack Smith Testifies About Case Against Trump
00:41:01
MS NOW's Ari Melber reports on takeaways from Jack Smith's historic testimony.
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- [00:01]
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- [01:00]
News Anchor / Host
Welcome to the beat, everyone. I'm Ari Melbourne. The reason that we have special coverage tonight with Nicole and Rachel and our whole team later is that we will be making sense of what we live through today. A reckoning inside a crime scene inside the nation's capitol, which was famously criminally ransacked by Donald Trump's fans after he summoned them. This is the seat of government and democracy which then outgoing President Trump tried to overthrow. And this is the first time the special counsel who famously indicted Donald Trump twice, Jack Smith, gave public testimony under oath about his case. And Jack Smith's headline was Donald Trump belongs in prison. Donald Trump would have been convicted had, in Smith's view, the wheels of justice been allowed to move forward. Now, that is his view. A fair reporting of this also includes other views. And members of both parties, of course, were represented in the questioning, but they are questioning an individual who has high credibility, who's prosecuted people in the public corruption unit in both parties and who brought this case with mountains of evidence. So what he said today for the first time under oath in public matters, and he said Trump is guilty of serious crimes against our democracy and that he had the goods, the evidence, the receipts to prove it. And what is different today? And we're going to show you not only what Smith said, but a lot of the supporting material. Right now I've got some very special guests standing by from the top of the doj, but what we're going to show you right now is both some of what Smith said. So you're caught up on the highlights, but if you watch part of this hearing today, we're going to show you more than just what he said. I'm going to give it to you in the context of the overwhelming evidence, because here's the thing. Every defendant is legally presumed innocent in our system. That includes former defendant Donald Trump. But not every case is this strong with this much evidence that occurred in real time. Trump tried to overturn the election. He lost. And he was caught red handed with volumes and volumes, piles and piles of classified documents which he had every right to review while he was president and no right to steal when his citizen era began. And so here's where we begin tonight with Jack Smith.
- [03:27]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
President Trump engaged in criminal activity. Donald Trump suggested that one witness should be put to death.
- [03:34]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
This is a Republican, mind you, who called it a little bit embarrassing.
- [03:37]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
I felt confident in pursuing the case. I will not be intimidated.
- [03:41]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
The Republicans have called this a hearing.
- [03:45]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
We had proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
- [03:47]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
Be careful what you wish for.
- [03:49]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
We were ready, willing and able to go to trial.
- [03:51]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
He's always sort of been very down the middle and just about the facts.
- [03:56]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
It was an attack on the structure of our democracy. No one, no one should be above the law in this country.
- [04:05]
News Anchor / Host
No one should be above the law. Smith was sober to the point of dry. He was fair to the point of sometimes even possibly boring for those who watched all five plus hours of this. And he was serious in a forum that at times was not. Indeed, Republicans were of two minds about this formidable public servant because remember, there was a private deposition they held and they released that kind of under the COVID of darkness over the holiday days. Smith was the one who said, yes, I can appear in private or public, but bring it on. Former DOJ counsel appears today amidst this enemy's list, which Trump has made it clear he wants to add Smith to. These are not just named opponents or targets, but people that have already been basically subjected to the DOJ's corrupt use of subpoenas and indictments, charges, probes. Smith told the committee he does prepare for the same type of abuse by Trump. Now.
- [05:14]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
Do you believe that President Trump's Department of Justice will find some way to indict you?
- [05:22]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
I believe they will do everything in their power to do that because they've been ordered to by the president.
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News Anchor / Host
And Trump posted about his view that the hunter should be hunted, that he wants to return to more and more of these kind of revenge prosecutions. His current record, by the way. Owen 14, Pam Bondi takes the enemies list as an order, even though in a similar forum Before Congress, she once claimed there would be no enemies list. Today at the hearing, Republicans also questioned and attacked Smith over what he did in the probe. Some view it as a kind of projection where the party of losing revenge, prosecutions against the Fed Chair, Trump, cabinet members, local officials, a member of Congress, a congressional candidate, the list goes on. That party now in Smith sees their own problems in the mirror. But key elements of the Trump plot, which we've reported on are documented. Many of them indicted and convicted, some of them through independent authorities. The threats against Pence, the elector fraud and the effort to corrupt the doj.
- [06:35]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
Did your investigation find that Donald Trump attempted to manufacture fraudulent state slates of presidential electors in seven states that he lost?
- [06:47]
News Anchor / Host
Yes.
- [06:48]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
I just want to find 11,780 votes.
- [06:56]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
Did he spread lies and conspiracies to his followers to make them believe that the election had been illegally rigged against him?
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News Anchor / Host
Yes. They obviously were influencing a lot of people, members of the public.
- [07:10]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
Did he pressure DOJ officials to stop the certification of the of the election?
- [07:17]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
He did.
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News Anchor / Host
And I recall toward the end saying what you're proposing is nothing less than the United States Justice Department meddling in.
- [07:23]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
The outcome of a presidential election.
- [07:25]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
You don't understand, Mike, you can do this.
- [07:29]
News Anchor / Host
I don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this. What you see there is the corroboration, including from Republican officials, from White House veterans, from people speaking under oath who did resist what Trump demanded, which was to stonewall what became his impeachment probe and later the Jan.6 investigation by Congress. And so again, I'm trying to tell you very clearly, we cover some hearings where somebody says a bunch of stuff, and that's all we have. We cover some legal proceedings where somebody says stuff, but some of it remains under seal. And that's true sometimes for good reasons, in grand jury cases or in other areas where Trump has continued to hide material against the law, like the Epstein probe. But this is not that case. Tonight, Jack Smith spoke under oath under the penalty of perjury and more in these tense times, and then referred to things that, as we're continuing to show you, happened and were corroborated by Trump's top aides and longtime Republican conservatives and Federalist Society members. Smith said it is that evidence, corroboration and witnesses that meant he was confident he would win this case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if you remember the two cases today, he testified most about Jan.6, but the two cases with felonies involved would lead typically to sentencing where the defendant would end up in prison for some time. Again, every defendant legally presumed innocent. These cases didn't go to trial. But remember, it was Trump's own supporters in the cases Smith was going to bring, who would have become witnesses.
- [09:07]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
Some of the most powerful witnesses were witnesses who, in fact, were fellow Republicans who had voted for Donald Trump, who had campaigned for him, and who wanted him to win the election.
- [09:20]
News Anchor / Host
I said, absolutely not.
- [09:21]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
That's not how we do things in the United States.
- [09:24]
News Anchor / Host
There's no legal authority to do that.
- [09:26]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
What they were proposing, I thought was nuts.
- [09:32]
News Anchor / Host
Those are the voices of the insiders, the people who helped Trump all along the way, including on ideas that were controversial, to say the least in the first term, but served his agenda. They just stopped at the point of ending our democracy as we know it, of trying to overthrow the incoming administration of President Elect Biden. And they failed, which is important to remember at a time like this where some feel we've gone through the looking glass in the second term and Jack Smith is being openly attacked by the sitting president and they are willing to indict their foes. We've seen. And yet that doesn't mean that insurrections work. The last one happened, and we measured some of that today, the damage. There were police officers in that room, by the way. We'll talk about that. But it didn't work then. And if they try it again, there are good reasons to think it would not work. On a repeat, Jack Smith was, as I mentioned, under these rules, not going to get into the classified documents case. That's because, unlike some of the people at the DOJ right now, this former DOJ employee closely adheres to every court order in the rule of law. So because there's a court order that limits that. He was extra careful to say he's not going to get into any of it. And I emphasize that because there are some people in government and law who, who would say that's the court order. But I'm gonna go up against it, or I'm going to try to get really close to the line, or I'm gonna say things that aren't about what I know from the government side of that case, but in general about, for example, you could not violate a court order, but say that as a general matter, leaving classified documents all over the place that you stole is dangerous to the United States. You could say that without, of course, revealing any secret investigative material. But he's very careful, and we're going to talk about this tonight as well, the difference in the tactics because he's playing by the rules even as others break them. And for people who look at this as politics or bloodsport, that can be frustrating as a political matter. Democrats are often told to get tougher and within the law and nonviolent available legal actions, they could get tougher. That's a political debate, but it is not, not the place of veterans of the Department of Justice or anyone who cares about the rule of law to say, oh, if the other side's doing crime or elector fraud or lying under oath, then you got to hit back with that. And that certainly was not Jack Smith's approach today. And the Democrats are saying, when lawful, they actually want to get him back before the Congress to discuss that whole other case, which depends on whether that report is released and other matters in court. Smith made it clear what he sees at stake today.
- [12:16]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
My belief is that if we do not hold the most powerful people in our society to the same standards of the rule of law, it can be catastrophic if we don't call people to account when they commit crimes in this context, it can endanger our election process. It can endanger election workers and ultimately our democracy.
- [12:40]
News Anchor / Host
I told you, Jack Smith is sober and careful. He didn't make a bunch of sweeping statements like that. The warning you just heard there, he made on the strength of the evidence he'd gathered on the very credible witnesses who had worked for Trump up until the insurrection and sedition plot and then told the truth. He thinks under oath, many of them, about what we're up against. And you heard it there. If we don't patrol this and we don't protect our democracy and rule of law, Americans are in danger. The actual counting and processing of the votes is in danger, and ultimately the democracy itself. There weren't any big fireworks coming from Jack Smith's side of the table today. That's on purpose. In a world of lies and AI slop and White House meme lies and wannabe performative Internet fireworks, he is the antithesis of that. And yet, if there were substantive fireworks, if I can be so bold as to make up that kind of term, the substance that came through was, your democracy is at stake. You better fight to keep it. We have two titans of the Justice Department who served at the highest levels dealing with criminal cases. Andrew Weissman and Leslie Caldwell. When we return.
- [13:55]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
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- [13:59]
News Anchor / Host
Mas de die studian tes con mase trenta is cinco migliones de dolares en vecas of torgadas esta es ma historia de generaciones de studiantes que straro una los queduda.
- [14:18]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
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- [14:26]
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- [14:55]
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News Anchor / Host
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- [16:42]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
I was trapped in the house gallery with a small number of members that day. And I will never forget the pounding on the doors and the insurrectionists threatening to kill us right outside.
- [16:55]
News Anchor / Host
Breach the line. We need backup. We have a breach of the Capitol. Breach of the Capitol.
- [17:05]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
Our proof showed that he caused what happened on January 6, that it was foreseeable and that he exploited that violence.
- [17:16]
News Anchor / Host
Fact check. True your view on what we heard from Jack Smith there on this point, on people reliving what sometimes has been lied about, how those convicts attacked members of Congress in both parties. They wanted to hurt people. They wanted to hurt Mike Pence. That was clear. They vowed to murder him, assassinate him. They, of course, did the breach you just saw and all of that was, of course later pardoned by Donald Trump. So what did you think of the way Smith presented it today?
- [17:49]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
Well, you know, picking up on what you're talking about, I mean, it's not just that you have Jack Smith speaking truth to power, but the people in that room, so many of them were in Congress on January 6. They saw what happened themselves. They were eyewitnesses to the crimes. And they couldn't bring themselves today to all Republicans and Democrats to just say, look, this is what happened. And so the Democrats repeatedly went to the prior statements of Republicans right after January 6th saying this is what happened, including statements that the president was responsible.
- [18:35]
News Anchor / Host
And look, this is Josh, because we have that Andrew. So I'm going to play that point because you're going there and then you'll continue and analyze out of this. But Moskowitz go to it showed that. And here was some. McConnell, take a look.
- [18:50]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
Chip Roy, Today the people's House was attacked, which is an attack on the republic itself. Steve Scalise, United States Capitol Police saved my life. Lindsey Graham, when it comes to accountability, the president needs to understand his actions were the problem.
- [19:03]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
This failed insurrection only underscores how crucial.
- [19:07]
News Anchor / Host
The task before us is for our republic.
- [19:11]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
We had police officers, the men and women that we walk by every single day, that guard the doors and we say hello to, out there with riot.
- [19:17]
News Anchor / Host
Gear, getting spit on and attacked. All I can say is count me out.
- [19:23]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
Enough is enough. So here, I think, is the key message of where we are. And Jack Smith said this at the end of his opening statement. He said that he, in his 30 years, including overseas, has seen what can happen when there's an erosion of the rule of law. And he said, my fear is that we have seen the rule of law function in this country for so long that many of us have come to take it for granted. But the rule of law is not self executing. It depends on our collective commitment to apply it. It requires dedicated service on behalf of others, especially when that service is difficult and comes with costs. Our willingness to pay those costs is what tests and defines our commitment to the rule of law and to this wonderful country. And I think that is what we saw Jack Smith and his team live and breathe, but it's a message to all of us in terms of what is at stake and what's going to be required of us if we want to save that part of this country.
- [20:33]
News Anchor / Host
Leslie, your view on what Smith presented today, why it matters?
- [20:37]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
Well, I think it was very important for the public, to the extent they were all watching, or at least many of them were, to see that Jack Smith is a very sober, serious person, not a deranged lunatic as he's been depicted by the President and others. The format of a congressional hearing is not really designed to let somebody tell their story or let somebody answer real questions. It's designed more to be speeches by members of Congress, followed up by generally short, because the questions usually are sort of very leading and the witnesses don't usually get a chance to actually articulate what they might want to say if they could. But I think it was important for the country to see that he's a serious person, he took his job seriously. Seriously. I've known him for several years and he's always been a very serious and straightforward, by the book prosecutor. And I think that was to the extent he was able to talk. I think that was fairly clear.
- [21:33]
News Anchor / Host
Yeah. And there were a lot of questions to him about investigative process. We didn't clip all of them because they kind of went down these strange rabbit holes. I was just curious your view, Having overseen so many criminal cases, when Republicans said, gosh, why did you use subpoenas? Why did you review documents to see who was in touch with whom after this large scale national security attack, why did you do interviews? Are those all standard investigative tools?
- [22:02]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
Yeah, those are all investigation prosecution 101. If you find out that two people were talking at a particular time that's relevant to the case, you want to be able to confirm that they did in fact have a conversation. You're not going to know what was said because all that was subpoenaed was basically the time and the length of the conversation and who the two ends of the conversation were. That's normal to seek people's phone records. It's normal to subpoena documents. In fact, that's the only way prosecutors generally get documents is by subpoenaing them. And that's subpoenas go out in every kind of case, ranging from the simplest case to the most complicated case.
- [22:36]
News Anchor / Host
And Jim Jordan probably knows that.
- [22:38]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
I'm sure he does. Yes.
- [22:40]
News Anchor / Host
Yeah.
- [22:42]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
I mean, I think a lot of what we saw today was theater. Maybe not the greatest theater in the world, but it was theater. And it wasn't really designed to get at the truth. It was designed to present individual people's perspectives based on their whatever their party affiliation is.
- [22:56]
News Anchor / Host
Yeah. I mean, Leslie puts it very clearly, as she often does. Andrew, Theater's great. If you go to Broadway. And I love fiction. It just has to be properly labeled. We are living, though, in upside down times where people with authority are putting out their fiction as nonfiction. That's a lie. And in the criminal context, Jack Smith reminded or explained to the Congress today in his sober way that of course, words that are used for crimes are not protected speech. That's true in fraud. It's true in incitement. I mentioned to viewers, I'll show some of what Republicans said for those who were working or busy day didn't watch the whole thing. One Republican congressman drew audible gasps in the room and concern from the officers who protected members of Congress with a conspiracy theory about what happened that day. And so a warning to viewers. He's referencing things that are not substantiated. But this was also the tenor of some of the back and forth from Rep. Nels.
- [24:01]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
I would like to quickly address the police officers of January 6. Mr. Dahn, Mr. Fanon, Mr. Cornell, Mr. Hodges, I'm a member of the new select committee to actually examine, actually examine what happened that day. And I can tell you gentlemen that the fault does not lie with Donald Trump. It lies with Yogananda Pittman and the U.S. capitol leadership team. We know, we know they had the intelligence.
- [24:35]
News Anchor / Host
And on it went. Andrew, your thoughts on that effort to lie about a history which even if one is accustomed to some amount of misleading and false claims in politics or in the MAGA era, to say that he wanted to specifically address those officers who protect members of Congress and do it from the seat of the crime scene was galling even by today's standards.
- [25:02]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
Well, let's just take the logic of what that person is saying. If you want to argue that law enforcement at the time knew enough to take proactive steps, one that's not a defense of the people who attacked The Capitol. That's just saying that the government at the time could have prevented it. Two, Donald Trump was the president of the United States at the time, and he either was then derelict in not doing something beforehand, and it is not a defense to the fact that when it was ongoing, as we all witnessed, he did not lift a finger for hours until really sort of forced to, and people pleaded with him. And after he sent out a tweet that Jackson has said endangered the life of his own vice president of the United States, only then did he act. So even if you take that sort of callous attack by that member of Congress, it logically doesn't hold up in terms of assessing blame.
- [26:11]
News Anchor / Host
Yeah. And I wanted to ask you, you worked for Mueller, who also did his testimony these days have a kind of a history mood. And in both times with Trump, he got away in the Mueller case. The sitting president was never going to have been prosecuted. So a lot of people were refreshed on that, on that baseline of DOJ rules. But I don't know, Andrew, I don't put you on the spot. Do you ever see Arbitrage with Richard Gere?
- [26:36]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
I did.
- [26:37]
News Anchor / Host
Okay, so you know that you see this film and you learn this guy is doing financial fraud. A rich guy stealing from others. That's always bad. Then he is at least negligent, if not worst, in losing someone's life in a car accident. These are spoilers, but it's old movie. But by the end of the movie, big spoiler, Richard Gere gets away with it all. And so the audience is left going, is this our system? The guy gets away. You can see how that's frustrating, even amidst the facts and the receipts. And I'm gonna put two of the work, two of the pieces of work we've done on this. When you go back to the criminal enterprises that Donald Trump has overseen on the evidence, whether or not he was ever sent to prison, this is a reminder of how many people were convicted in different jurisdictions for different things. The 16 campaign, you were involved in that, obviously, the business side in New York, some people said, oh, well, these are more minor misdemeanors. That's fine. But these people were convicted. The 20 campaign I have there and Donald Trump convicted in New York. Then you look at that background as context for what we've charted in the 20 plot. Lawsuits are allowed. The elector fraud was discussed today. That was indicted trying to get states to overturn votes. Most Republican officials said, no, we have some of that on tape. The Congress to overturn votes isn't in red because it was debatable. You know, Congress has a wider leeway which members mentioned today. The plot for Pence was indicted, the DOJ interference, of course, bigger complex thing. The military plot was abandoned. And Trump said this past year, Andrew, he wish he went forward with it. And then Jan6 itself. What do you say to people watching this who say, okay, great presentation, but he got away.
- [28:19]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
I think that is absolutely right. I would commend people to listen to what the Prime Minister of Canada said in Davos the other day about the fact that we really are in a different world order, that there has been a rupture in terms of where we are. We hold ourselves out as having a rule of law. And I think it is really important. And today was such an example of that of Jack Smith representing what the department was. It's just the way, the way that Leslie Caldwell taught me what the department was supposed to be. It's sort of that is like facts and law matter. That is not what we have now. There is no question that internationally countries would look at us as Canada does and many other countries and say that is not what is happening here, that we have somebody who has not been held to the rule of law. And that was really the import of what Jack Smith was saying today loud and clear, over and over again, as a sort of wake up call for what it's going to take in his view to restore the rule of law.
- [29:32]
News Anchor / Host
Leslie, we'll go to you for the same question because it's kind of the question at the core of all this. Again, I'll put back up the chart where you look at the convictions. Massive. Nothing like this since Watergate. And one argument on the criminal enterprises is they didn't all get away. A president is a special role. And a lot of other people did get in trouble and convicted. Not all of them spared immediately for Giuliani, which gets all the way up to 20, all the way to the top to 2020. Jack Smith discussed that today. Oh, you, you indicted Trump. What about the others? Here was the Giuliani discussion.
- [30:11]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
We had evidence that the President had directed Rudy Giuliani, one of his co conspirators, to contact members of Congress to try to further delay the proceedings and exploit the violence that happened in the Capitol. We had evidence that those calls had happened. We wanted to get more evidence of that to corroborate it for trial.
- [30:35]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
So I think that Jack did a very good job explaining why they got the phone records. It's been implied by members of Congress that there was something improper about that. It's very proper and very normal and in fact, standard operating procedure when you think that people have been in contact with each other, to be able to confirm that by getting phone records. So I think I agree with what Andrew said about the way the department was working versus the way it's working now. For example, the department in the criminal division has two sections whose entire reason for existence is to train international prosecutors and law enforcement officers about how to have a system that's based on the rule of law. We can't really fairly be expected to have any countries wanting us to come train them at this point.
- [31:24]
News Anchor / Host
But the problem of, well, did they just get away with it? What does our system say to that now?
- [31:29]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
Well, I think our system right now is remaining mute. And they're not only doing that, but they're also prosecuting people with what appears to be no evidence or very little evidence or certainly insufficient evidence, which is sending the opposite message. We are behaving in a corrupt manner and we no longer care about the rule of law and making sure that people are not indicted for revenge. People are indicted based on evidence and based on the law. That's not what this current department is doing.
- [31:58]
News Anchor / Host
So your view is basically, if this is the problem we're in until the public rises up or there is a change to go back and try to return a regular order.
- [32:09]
Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Chief)
I think that's right. And I'm not saying everything in the department was perfect before, but certainly it was principled and it was based on evidence and law. That is no longer the case.
- [32:19]
News Anchor / Host
Yeah. In closing, Andrew, again, we covered a lot of serious stuff. Is there anything you want to say to Richard Gere about his performance in that movie?
- [32:28]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
Well, I just think that it's really important as much as people tune into this show, they now have the opportunity to really hear Jack Smith himself, and they don't.
- [32:39]
News Anchor / Host
You got to go gear first, then you. Then you can end with the sailing rhetoric. But what do you want to say about arbitrage? And then you get the. Then you get to conclude.
- [32:50]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
So. So people can watch the movie or they can watch Jack Smith and they can make their judgment. But I really think on a day like today, it's so important for people now that they have an opportunity to actually hear him himself. They don't have to take the president's words and just. And sort of adjectives and epith that they can make their own judgments based on his demeanor and the way he answers questions. They actually have that opportunity now. And they should really avail themselves of it.
- [33:25]
News Anchor / Host
You make a great point. And we tried to focus a lot on the evidence and add to what Smith already said on the optics, which is part of the whole system in D.C. i'll mention to your point, a lot of outlets, this one, networks we saw that did updates, CNN, which happens to be a competitor, YouTube stations, they were all covering this as newsworthy. Fox did not stay in it, as we say in the news all day, even though it was a Republican led hearing, which shows something about the point you're making on the optics, that perhaps those who don't want Jack Smith to be heard are afraid that when heard he sounds eminently reasonable and speaks to what Leslie just said, which is apart from politics, are we going to have actual fair justice in this country or not? So our thanks to both of you on this historic testimony day. We appreciate it. Trump, meanwhile, buckling under pressure, backing off the oddball extreme threats to invade Europe. We have that later tonight because it's a big change from where he was to start the week. And when it comes to people standing up to Trump, Jack Smith said some of their best witnesses worked in the Trump White House. We have one of those types of individuals next.
- [34:44]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
He was looking for ways to stay in power. And when people told him things that conflicted with him staying in power, he rejected them.
- [34:54]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
I thought that he needed to include a call to action and to tell these people to go home. And a debate ensued. So I motioned up at the TV and I said, do you think it looks like we're effing winning? Because I don't think it does.
- [35:10]
News Anchor / Host
Prosecutor Jack Smith testifying under oath in public for the first time today and referring to a lot of the corroboration they had. Some of those witnesses spoke to his prosecutors and investigators in private. Others we know from the public. Jan, six hearings, including Sarah Matthews, who you saw there discussing what were at the time heated in torn internal debates over how to respond to the unfolding violent sedition of Trump fans at the Capitol. Sarah Matthews joins us now. She was deputy press secretary in the Trump White House. She resigned on January 6 and works now at Home of the Brave, an advocacy group that deals in so many of these democracy issues. Welcome back. Your view of the import of what Jack Smith said today and did he strike you as fair and accurate?
- [35:57]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
Yeah, I think that obviously it was ridiculous for the Republicans to call him for this hearing because they did so to try to please Donald Trump. Obviously, Jack Smith is a big target of his and Trump is still living in the past and to this day talks about how he won the 2020 election. But I do think that it was a good thing for the general public to see Jack Smith in this setting answering these questions and sticking to the facts. Because Trump today was posting about how Jack Smith was a deranged anim. And obviously if you watched the hearing or caught any of the clips, you saw that it was anything but that, that he is a noble public servant who is just doing his job, understood.
- [36:39]
News Anchor / Host
The criminal requirements that Smith had to prove were higher than the general public or Congress might want. So, for example, a politician who lies about the result or interferes in a non criminal way, most people think that's bad, but it might not be a crime. Smith had to go to what people remember from law and criminal intent. And I want to play some of what he said about election lies today, including what you've testified about.
- [37:11]
Jack Smith (Special Counsel)
Our investigation revealed that Donald Trump was not looking for honest answers about whether there was fraud in the election. He in fact knew that the fraud claims he was making were false.
- [37:24]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
I was struck by the fact that he chose to begin the video by pushing the lie that there was a stolen election. His refusal to act and call off the mob that day and his refusal to condemn the violence was indefensible.
- [37:41]
News Anchor / Host
Smith says they had the evidence that Trump was knowingly trying to steal an election that he knew he lost. Does that match with your experience when you were in the White House?
- [37:54]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
Yeah, we knew that at the time that Donald. I knew on election night that Donald Trump lost. Let me be clear about that. And I think that there were others in the White House who also believed that. But they were trying to keep him happy. And so they started telling him what he wanted to hear. And then that's when you started getting these crazy conspiracy theories that started coming out of the president's mouth about how the voting machines had been rigged and that he needed 11,000 votes in Georgia and was trying to put pressure on the Secretary of State there to find the votes?
- [38:27]
News Anchor / Host
And let me pinpoint that, because so many Republicans were asking questions about this day. Was it your, based on what you saw and live, was it your best understanding that Trump was just completely confused or that he viewed those as efforts to do propaganda to get to the result, regardless of the truth?
- [38:45]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
I think that Trump knew that he lost and he had been told by multiple advisors, both in the White House, on the campaign, state officials, that he lost and that this was a propaganda effort by his part to try to find these votes. For example, in Georgia or spreading these conspiracy theories about Dominion Voting machines. I think that he knew that he lost, but he was willing to cling to anything and any excuse in order to try to stay in power.
- [39:14]
News Anchor / Host
And finally, you testified. We've shown that Cassidy Hutchinson was a key witness. She testified about things she saw up close from being, of course, an aide to the number one person in the White House staff, the chief of staff. She also talked about things that others told her. And I'm curious what you thought of all of that exchange and the attacks on her today, given that you know her and worked in the same White House.
- [39:38]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
Yeah, I think that any attack on Cassidy Hutchinson is pathetic because I know her to be someone of good character and she is extremely brave for coming forward with what she knew and testifying before the January 6th committee. She faced death threats as a result and had to go into hiding. And so I think that it's really rich for a lot of these members of Congress to sit there and attack her when there is no basis in their attacks against her. And I think that they are saying what they need to say in order to stay in power and to please Donald Trump. But Cassidy told the truth at a great cost. And I think that those who are sitting in those positions of power, who are two, three times her age, they should really look at themselves in the mirror and consider what they're doing and how they go to sleep at night, because honestly, I don't know how they do it. They know that Donald Trump lost a free and fair election and that he tried to overthrow it as a result and caused a violence, violent insurrection. And he is the first president in US History to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power as a result. And so for them to attack Cassidy is just BS, honestly. And it's really frustrating because there is one person to blame for January 6th and it is Donald J. Trump.
- [40:57]
News Anchor / Host
Very clear. And again, when we look back over this history, we have different people, the roles they played, whether they cooperated, whether they testified. And we thought of you tonight given all that history. And I know a lot of people appreciate those who tried to add facts to this process. Smith referred to the import of that in building these cases. So, Sarah Matthews, appreciate you joining us tonight given your perspective. I'll tell folks coming up, Donald Trump backing down on threats to go to war in Europe. When we return, President Trump is backing down on those bizarre threats to go to war in Europe or invade Greenland. Atlantic reports Europe's red lines worked, while the Financial Times across the pond says Trump is now In a great Greenland climb down. This comes after a set of remarks that are raising questions about Donald Trump's condition, his competence, and obviously his foreign policy when he spoke to world leaders at Davos.
- [42:00]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
We have pretty much the concept of a deal, a deal of ownership. A deal, well, it's a little bit complex, but we'll explain it down the line.
- [42:09]
News Anchor / Host
I would use force. I don't have to use force.
- [42:11]
Andrew Weissmann (Former Mueller Prosecutor)
I don't want to use force. I won't use force. Without us, right now, you'd all be speaking German and a little Japanese. Perhaps they're not there for us on Iceland, that I can tell you. Emmanuel Macron. I watched him yesterday with those beautiful sunglasses. Canada lives because of the United States. I mean, our stock market took the first dip yesterday because of Iceland. Very smart man, said he's our daddy. So Iceland's already cost us a lot of money.
- [42:39]
News Anchor / Host
The president clearly confusing Greenland with a different country. And the White House claimed that he was making up a new Nordic nickname, calling it Iceland because of all the ice. Which is an odd way to draw more attention to the fact that after flying out there, Trump was apparently confused, making that mistake repeatedly. We'll be right back.
- [43:04]
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- [43:34]
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- [44:04]
Sarah Matthews (Former Trump Deputy Press Secretary)
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- [44:35]
News Anchor / Host
Jack Smith testified under oath in public for the first time today, and we have special coverage starting in an hour, 8pm Eastern. Rachel leading that with an interview with one of the key members of today's hearing. Jamie Raskin will join. He also served on the Jan.6 committee, and Rachel will lead the coverage along with the whole team you see here. So that's in an hour, 8pm Eastern. While we recommend you keep it locked. Real talent is defined by what people can do, not where they learn to do it. So by stopping at the education section of a resume, you might throw away the perfect Hire skills first. Hiring helps you see talent others miss. Like more than 70 million stars skilled through alternative routes, let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage. Because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% percent more likely to find a successful hire. Hire skills first. Learn why at tearthepaperceiling. Org, brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council.