Leader Jeffries on Government Shutdown

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Leader Jeffries on Government Shutdown

Date: October 2, 2025
Host: Melissa Murray (in for Ari Melber)
Guests: Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, Andrew Weissman, Asha Rangappa, Howard Lutnick, Rep. Justin J. Pearson

---

Overview

This episode centers on the ongoing government shutdown orchestrated during President Trump’s administration, focusing on health care cuts, threats of mass federal employee firings, and controversial assertions of executive wartime powers. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries joins to discuss Democratic strategy and the shutdown's impact, while other segments address the Epstein files controversy and an alarming new crackdown on American cities.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shutdown Stalemate & GOP Strategy

Time: [01:02] – [09:53]

• Melissa Murray summarizes the landscape: President Trump is accused of using the government shutdown to “maximize pain and punish political foes,” with plans for historically unprecedented, permanent federal layoffs.
• Polls indicate more Americans blame Republicans for the shutdown: “47% to 30%” ([02:52]).
• Speaker Mike Johnson publicly denies any intent to negotiate:

  “There is no, there is no gimmick. People say, why aren’t you negotiating with Schumer and Jeffries? Because I quite literally have nothing to negotiate.” – Mike Johnson ([03:09])

Hakeem Jeffries on Negotiations

Time: [03:33] – [05:52]

• Jeffries claims Republicans have gone “radio silent” since the latest White House meeting and want a shutdown to avoid providing health care to working class Americans ([03:33]).

  “It’s clear that they wanted to shut this government down because they were unwilling to provide health care to working class Americans.” – Hakeem Jeffries ([03:33])

• Democrats are open to negotiation and insist any bipartisan agreement must enforce legal compliance by the Trump administration.

On Messaging: Health Care vs. Abuse of Power

Time: [04:19] – [05:52]

• Murray challenges Jeffries: Should Democrats focus solely on health care, or also emphasize abuse of executive power?

• Jeffries explains the party’s dual-track approach—addressing drastic Medicaid/ACA cuts and pushing for enforceability in funding agreements ([04:44]):

  “…the largest cut to Medicaid in American history. Hospitals and nursing homes and community-based health clinics are closing all across the country, including in rural America… we’ve also indicated… we can’t simply proceed as if this is business as usual.” ([04:44])

---

2. Mass Firings & the GOP Blueprint

Time: [05:52] – [08:18]

• Project 2025 (GOP manifesto for Trump's second term) openly advocates massive cuts to the federal workforce. Russ Vought, now OMB Director, is driving the planned firings.

  “We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected.” – Russ Vought (tape, [06:42])

• Jeffries:

  “Donald Trump and Republicans definitively wanted to shut down the government. For them, cruelty is the point... Democrats are very clear. We want to reopen it. We stand by hardworking federal civil servants.” ([07:05])

• He warns of dramatic health care cost increases:

  “…more than 20 million Americans are about to experience dramatically increased premiums, co pays, and deductibles. That’s unacceptable in the wealthiest country in the history of the world.” ([08:10])

---

3. Targeted Pain and Partisan Blame

Time: [09:53] – [11:11]

• Murray: Reports (Politico) say 16 blue states face the brunt of the health care cuts, all of which voted for Kamala Harris in 2024.

• Jeffries: While the targeting is acknowledged, he argues the pain and chaos inflicted by the Trump administration’s cuts cross state and partisan lines:

  “They ripped food out of the mouths of children, seniors and veterans… to subsidize the lifestyles of the rich and shameless.” ([10:22])

---

4. Trump’s War Powers Expansion

Time: [11:11] – [14:53]

• NY Times Report: Trump claims wartime powers—declaring a “war against drug cartels”—to justify lethal strikes on Venezuelan boats.

  • Legal experts are alarmed: Trump is invoking “extraordinary wartime powers” to kill “so-called enemies… detain them indefinitely and prosecute them in military courts.” ([14:53])

• Jeffries: Confirms Democratic leaders on Foreign Affairs, Armed Services, and Intel are moving to check executive overreach:

  “…as the only branch of government that can declare war, I support those efforts entirely. And pushing back against another instance of executive overreach.” ([11:35])

---

5. Analysis of War Powers & Legal Precedent

Time: [14:53] – [23:36]

• Andrew Weissman (ex-FBI/DOJ):

  “You can’t just go ahead and shoot a drug dealer, even if you know they’re a drug dealer. If they were in the United States, there is something called due process…” ([16:52])

• The administration’s approach blurs the line between foreign war powers and domestic law enforcement, reminiscent of the Bush era’s “unlawful combatant” arguments.

  “[This] is banking on the fact that people just don’t like drug dealers and thinking who cares about due process? That is what it means to be a nation of laws.” – Andrew Weissman ([18:20])

• Murray & Weissman note the use of old statutes (1798 Alien Enemies Act) as precedent for labeling suspects enemy combatants, even within the U.S. ([18:39])

• Weissman warns of the “eradication of the rule of law” and the risk of Democrats appearing “weak on crime” if they oppose these tactics.

---

6. The Epstein Files: Contradiction & Pressure

Time: [25:43] – [36:09]

• Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick opposes the DOJ narrative, asserting:

  “This guy [Epstein] was the greatest blackmailer ever. Blackmailed people. That’s how he had money.” ([26:08])

• Lutnick shares a firsthand account of Epstein’s home and suggests videos of abuse were leverage for a sweetheart legal deal ([26:50], [27:55]).
• The DOJ previously claimed “no credible evidence… that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals” ([26:16]).
• Democrats demand Lutnick testify before Congress as the Epstein files’ release becomes a focal point of partisan conflict.

Guest Reactions

Asha Rangappa (Yale/former FBI):

“He clearly stepped in, right? This whole idea that Epstein was blackmailing people… is definitely a MAGA conspiracy talking point. But the only way to verify whether that’s true is to understand what was actually recovered from the Epstein residence.” ([30:34])

Andrew Weissman:

“I’m actually more interested in the firsthand account… that belies, for instance, Ghislaine Maxwell saying, ‘Oh, I never saw or heard anything untoward going on.’ …it really belies all the people saying, ‘I didn’t know anything.’” ([31:45])

Asha (on Congressional reluctance):

“It will definitely increase the pressure to release [the files]… this about face is very odd.” ([33:26])

• Both guests underline a lack of focus on Epstein survivors, who remain sidelined even as political intrigue dominates the coverage ([34:50]).

---

7. Trump’s Crackdown on Cities & Civil Rights Concerns

Time: [36:09] – [43:50]

• ICE raid in Colorado: Agents used force against a family with an infant, escalating alarm over aggressive federal action ([37:04]).
• White House aide Stephen Miller’s message to National Guard:

  “I see the guns in this room. You are unleashed. The handcuffs that you’re carrying, they’re not on you anymore. They’re on the criminals. And whatever you need to get it done, we’re going to get it done.” ([38:03])

• Deployment of National Guard to Memphis, despite local police reports showing crime at a 25-year low.

Memphis Responds

Rep. Justin J. Pearson:

“This has been dangerous since it was suggested by the administration to go after Democratic cities, but particularly cities with black leadership. Stephen Miller is a known white nationalist… my constituents… are going to be targeted by these 13 federal agencies.” ([39:34])

“This is not going to help reduce crime in a meaningful way. And this doesn’t have anything to do with crime. It’s perpetuating the idea of black criminality and from a government perspective, black inferiority…” ([41:19])

• Pearson warns the move may be a “guise” for voter suppression ahead of the midterms and calls it a constitutional overreach ([41:19]–[42:28]).
• He presses for constitutional challenges and coalition-building to resist federal intervention in Memphis and blue cities.

---

8. Notable and Memorable Moments

• “For them, cruelty is the point.” – Hakeem Jeffries ([07:05])

• "That's how he had money." – Howard Lutnick on Epstein's blackmailing ([26:08])

• “There is no, there is no gimmick… I quite literally have nothing to negotiate.” – Speaker Johnson ([03:09])

• “You can’t just go ahead and shoot a drug dealer… there is something called due process.” – Andrew Weissman ([16:52])

---

9. Tribute to Dr. Jane Goodall

Time: [43:50] – [45:15]

A brief segment commemorates Jane Goodall, featuring her comparing alpha male chimpanzee behavior to Donald Trump’s political style:

“They project themselves as really more large and aggressive than they may actually be in order to intimidate their rivals.” – Jane Goodall ([44:58])

---

Important Timestamps

• Shutdown discussion & Jeffries interview: [01:02] – [12:17]
• Trump’s war powers debate with Weissman: [14:53] – [23:36]
• Epstein files, Lutnick’s account, expert analysis: [25:43] – [36:09]
• ICE/ National Guard/ Memphis response: [36:09] – [43:50]

---

Conclusion

This episode exposes deepening fractures in American governance under the Trump administration—from the deliberate pain of a prolonged shutdown and the expansion of executive war powers to law enforcement crackdowns in Democratic cities and unanswered questions about the Epstein case. Notably, voices outside the administration and survivors themselves remain underrepresented, leaving vital questions about legality, justice, and accountability unresolved.

The tone, at turns urgent and incredulous, reflects high stakes and real fear about erosions of law, the militarization of policy, and the undermining of democratic norms.

Transcript

[Lifelock Advertiser]

Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers. And sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.

[Melissa Murray]

I need a coffee.

[Lifelock Advertiser]

And you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] specialoffer terms apply.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety. With Greenlight Infinity's driving reports, monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time, help keep your teen safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast welcome to the beat.

[Melissa Murray]

I am Melissa Murray in for Ari Melber, and we have a lot to cover tonight. House Minority Leader Hakeems Jeffries is standing by as he stares down President Trump amid the government shutdown. Plus, Andrew Weissman will be here to discuss Trump's explosive new claim to wartime powers. And while the DOJ and the FBI insist that there is, quote, no credible evidence that Jeffrey Epstein blackmailed prominent people, one administration official is singing a very different tune.

[Howard Lutnick]

That's what his M.O. was. You know, get a massage, get a massage. And what happened in that massage room, I assume was on video. This guy was the greatest blackmailer ever. Blackmailed people. That's how he had money.

[Melissa Murray]

We start tonight, though, with the shutdown in Washington, D.C. which Donald Trump is trying to use to maximize pain and punish political foes. That's how the New York Times put it as Trump forges ahead with plans to conduct mass layoffs. Permanent firings have never happened before in a government shutdown. Now, though, senior government officials are privately warning that there will be firings and against those firings, advising the administration that they would be unlawful. Today, press secretary Caroline Levitt seemed unbothered by the prospect of mass flight federal terminations. Can you give us an estimate on the amount of federal workers the Trump administration wants to fire during the government shutdown of hundreds over talking thousands? Look, it's likely going to be in the thousands. New polling shows that when it comes to casting blame for the shutdown, more Americans are pointing to the Republicans than to the Democrats. 47% to 30%.

[Andrew Weissman]

Okay.

[Melissa Murray]

According to the Post. And Politico is reporting that a bipartisan group of lawmakers is quietly meeting, searching for a way out of all of this. But today, Speaker Johnson seemed to throw cold water on the prospect of negotiations. Take a listen.

[Andrew Weissman]

There is no, there is no gimmick. People say, why aren't you negotiating with Schumer and Jeffries? Because I quite literally have nothing to negotiate.

[Melissa Murray]

Joining me now to discuss all of this is House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries. Leader Jeffries, thanks for joining us. What can you tell us about where we are with these negotiations? Apparently, there is nothing to discuss.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Well, good evening, Melissa. Great to be with you. And that's exactly right. Since the White House meeting that took place on Monday, Republicans have gone radio silent. It's clear that they wanted to shut this government down, and they wanted to shut it down because they were unwilling to provide health care to working class Americans. Our position remains the same. We're ready, we're willing, we're able to sit down with anyone, anytime, any place here at the Capitol or back at the White House to have a conversation about reopening the government in the midst of this Trump shutdown, finding a bipartisan path toward reaching a spending agreement that actually meets the needs of the American people, and making sure that we address the Republican health care crisis which is devastating people all across the country.

[Melissa Murray]

Can we talk a little bit about what you just said? The Democrats have been very clear in their messaging. You are emphasizing that this shutdown is about the Republicans refusing to restore health care funding. But some have argued that it would be equally compelling for the party to say that it is refusing to fund an administration and government that is bent on abusing its power. Why focus exclusively on health care? Why not carry both messages forward?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Well, in the legislation that we introduced as part of our Democratic approach related to avoiding a shutdown, or in this instance, now reopening it, we made clear two things that we're faced with a massive Republican healthcare crisis related to the largest cut to Medicaid in American history. Hospitals and nursing homes and community based health clinics are closing all across the country, including in rural America. And now Republicans are refusing to renew the Affordable Care act tax credits for working class Americans, everyday Americans, and those who are struggling in this Trump economy where life has already become far too expensive. And so we believe that healthcare is a central issue. Republicans have said it's an extraneous issue. At the same time, in the Democratic proposal to continue funding, we've also indicated that we can't simply proceed as if this is business as usual. If we reach a bipartisan agreement, then we've got to make sure there are enforceability mechanisms to ensure that the agreement that was reached is actually kept and that the Trump administration follows the law.

[Melissa Murray]

There's going to be a lot of pain here, not just in the area of healthcare. We are hearing that the administration is preparing for mass permanent firings. Just want to remind everyone that Project 2025, the GOP blueprint for, for the second Trump presidency, was unabashed in its desire to remake the federal government, including proposing massive cuts to the federal workforce. An architect of Project 2025, Russ Vogt, is now the head of the White House Office of Management and Budget. And that's the group that's driving these planned firings. I'm going to play a tape of Speaker Johnson responding to questions about Vogt's role in all of this, as well as tape of what vote had to say before the election. Here it is.

[Andrew Weissman]

Russ does this reluctantly. We had a 45 minute telephone conference with him yesterday. He talked to all the House Republicans.

[Melissa Murray]

He takes no pleasure in this.

[Andrew Weissman]

We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected.

[Melissa Murray]

We want to put them in trauma. Speaker, do you believe that Speaker Jeffrey is correct that this is not what Russ Vogt wanted to do, or does it seem like maybe this shutdown was a convenient vehicle for stripping down the federal government and this is perhaps what, what they wanted all along?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Well, Donald Trump and Republicans definitively wanted to shut down the government. For them, cruelty is the point. But as it relates to mass firings, we've seen them engage in mass firings from the very beginning of this administration. And so to the extent that they continue to proceed down this road in the context of the government shutdown, they'll simply use it as a pretense. But this is what they've wanted to do all along. But the American people are paying close attention. They know that Republicans control the House, the Senate and the presidency. They've shut this government down. Democrats are very clear. We want to reopen it. We stand by hardworking federal civil servants. We want to find a bipartisan path forward. But it's got to be an agreement that actually meets the needs of the American people in terms of their health, their safety and their economic well being. In an environment where the Trump economy is, is increasing costs on everyday Americans by thousands of dollars a year. And now, because of their refusal to extend the Affordable Care act tax Credits, more than 20 million Americans are about to experience dramatically increased premiums, co pays and deductibles. That's unacceptable in the wealthiest country in the history of the world.

[Melissa Murray]

I'm glad you mentioned that. The Republicans not only control the White House, but both chambers of Congress. And that puts Donald Trump white, at the center of all of this. Earlier this week, your colleague, Congresswoman Madeline Dean, confronted Speaker Johnson about the president. Take a listen.

[Asha Rangappa]

The president is unhinged. He is unwell.

[Melissa Murray]

What are you doing?

[Andrew Weissman]

Your side are, too.

[Melissa Murray]

I don't control.

[Asha Rangappa]

Oh, my God, please. That performance in front of the generals, that.

[Andrew Weissman]

I didn't see it.

[Asha Rangappa]

That is so dangerous.

[Melissa Murray]

You know, I serve on foreign affairs and appropriations.

[Asha Rangappa]

This is a collision of those two things.

[Melissa Murray]

Our allies are looking elsewhere.

[Asha Rangappa]

Our enemies are laughing.

[Andrew Weissman]

I just left.

[Melissa Murray]

You have a president who.

[Asha Rangappa]

You have a president who is unwell.

[Melissa Murray]

Notably, Speaker Johnson doesn't actually deny the idea that President Trump is unwell. What do you make of that?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Well, speaker was clearly uncomfortable by that conversation. And Representative Dean always speaks truth to power. And here's the reality. We had a White House meeting subsequent to that meeting. The behavior that we've seen from Donald Trump has been unhinged and out of control and clearly unserious at a moment when we should be actually conducting ourselves in a way to try to find a path forward. But their behavior demonstrates the fact that they wanted to shut this government down. They thought they could break the will of House and Senate Democrats. That's not happening. And it's not happening because we're standing up for everyday Americans. Cancel the cuts. Lower the cost, Save health care.

[Melissa Murray]

In terms of who will be impacted most by this, Politico is reporting, quote, that these cuts will impact 16 states, including new York, all of which voted for former Vice President Kamala Harris. Russ Vote has not publicly announced cuts that would affect a state that backed Trump in 2024. Leader Jeffries, is the pain of this shutdown going to be disproportionately borne by those in blue states? Is that the point of all of this?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

I don't think that, in fact, is the case. And what we've actually seen throughout this Trump administration is that the pain that they've inflicted on the American people, the chaos, the extremism that has been unleashed on the American people is impacting everyone. Their one big, ugly bill, which every single Democrat in the House and the Senate opposed. Largest cut to Medicaid in American history. They ripped food out of the mouths of children, seniors and veterans. And all of this was done so they could provide massive permanent tax breaks to their billionaire donors, to the wealthy, the well off and the well connected to subsidize the lifestyles of the rich and shameless. And they did it at the expense of working class Americans in blue states, in red states and in purple states. And the pain that they will try to inflict on the American people in the context of this Trump Republican shutdown will impact everyone.

[Melissa Murray]

Right before we let you go, Leader Jeffries, the Times is reporting that Trump has, quote, determined that we are in a war against drug cartels. And as you know, only Congress has the power to declare war. Are there any conversations ongoing among your colleagues about the extrajudicial killings that this administration has recently carried out in international waters and this new claim to war powers?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Yes. And those conversations are being led by Greg Meeks, the top Democrat on foreign affairs, Adam Smith, the top Democrat on armed services, and, and Jim Himes, the top Democrat on the Intel Committee, all of whom will continue to speak out forcefully and aggressively in defense of the Article 1 power. As the only branch of government that can declare war, I support those efforts entirely. And pushing back against another instance of executive overreach. And unfortunately, what we see from our House Republican colleagues is that they continue to behave as nothing more than a rubber stamp for Donald Trump's extreme agenda.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Leader Jeffries, thank you so much for kicking us off tonight.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Thank you.

[Melissa Murray]

Coming up, a member of Trump's cabinet goes off script, way off script when it comes to Jeffrey Epstein.

[Howard Lutnick]

I say to him, massage table in the middle of your house. How often you have a massage? And he, he says every day. And then he like gets like weirdly close to me and he says, and the right kind of massage.

[Melissa Murray]

Plus, I'll talk to a top Democratic lawmaker in Memphis, Tennessee about Stephen Miller's new threats to unleash federal agents.

[Andrew Weissman]

There I see the doves, and that's in this room.

[Melissa Murray]

You are unleashed.

[Andrew Weissman]

The handcuffs that you're carrying, they don't want you anymore.

[Melissa Murray]

But first, Andrew Weissman on what the law has to say about Donald Trump's extraordinary claim of new war powers. We are back in just 90 seconds.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight debit card and money app for families with greenlight. You can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications, kids Learn to earn, save and spend wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.

[Melissa Murray]

Ever felt defeated by cravings? You're not alone. Henry Meds is here to help support.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Your weight management journey.

[Melissa Murray]

Since I joined four months ago, I've lost £25 and it has changed my my life.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Henry meds personalized compounded GLP1 meds shipped to your door.

[Melissa Murray]

Take back control with treatments designed to reduce appetite.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Schedule a free online evaluation with a licensed [e-mail] audio and get $100 off your first month.

[Melissa Murray]

Results may vary. Not all patients are eligible.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Compounded medications are not FDA approved.

[Melissa Murray]

Consult a healthcare provider to determine if treatment is right for you.

[Howard Lutnick]

Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Expensive and more complicated than the last.

[Howard Lutnick]

It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's O-O-O.com.

[Melissa Murray]

Donald Trump is now trying to turn the so called war on drugs into a real war. The New York Times now with bombshell new reporting on an administration memorandum that has reportedly been circulated to some members of Congress in which the President claims war powers that justify his recent strikes on Venezuelan boats. Those strikes killed all of the passengers on board. The Times reports that, quote, Trump has decided that the United States is engaged in a formal armed conflict with drug cartels and and that suspected smugglers for such groups are unlawful combatants. Legal experts, however, warn that Trump is claiming, quote, extraordinary wartime powers to kill so called enemies even when they pose no threat, detain them indefinitely and prosecute them in military courts. The Trump memo harkens back to a widely criticized aspect of the Bush era war on terror. That time unlawful combatants were kept at places like Abu Ghraib and secret CIA black sites. So far, the Trump administration has presented little evidence that the targeted bolts were linked to drug cartels. The Times interviewed, quote, one woman who identified herself as the wife of one of the dead men. She said that her husband was a fisherman with four children who left one day for work and never came back. Trump's new claim to war powers comes just days after he told generals to Attack the quote unquote enemy within and to consider American cities as training grounds for the US Military. Joining me now to discuss all of this is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel, Mueller probe prosecutor, and an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, let's break all of this down. What is your reaction to this extraordinary claim of war powers to justify these recent attacks?

[Andrew Weissman]

You know, this really goes to the segment that you just had with Hakeem Jeffries where there was a discussion of the President being unhinged. It is very, very hard to square sort of what the President is claiming with reality. So just for basics, you can't just go ahead and shoot a drug dealer, even if you know they're a drug dealer. If they were in the United States, there is something called due process. They're entitled to a trial. You would normally not be imposing the death penalty, but if you were, there would be lots and lots of process. So the issue is, is there some exception, Is there some war power that enables the administration to do what they're doing here where you would not normally just be able to shoot somebody without due process? And you have none of the attributes. You don't have a declar declared war, you don't have an imminent threat, you don't have an armed conflict. None of the things that you look to to justify the United States taking action. And you can't even compare it to as the description of and the controversial steps with respect to isis. That is one where there was a way to say that was part of a declared war. That was one of the things that Congress had agreed to in something called the aumf.

[Melissa Murray]

The Authorization for the Use of Military Force.

[Andrew Weissman]

Exactly. And so there we were attacked. So there is a concern about self defense. None of those attributes are here. And this is where I think the administration is really just banking on the fact that people just don't like drug dealers and thinking who cares about due process? That is what it means to be a nation of laws.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, so can I interrupt you for a minute, Andrew? Some of this feels incredibly familiar. So earlier this year we had the administration invoking the 1798 law, the Alien Enemies act, for the purpose of declaring, quote, unquote, members of Tren de Aragua, a Venezuelan gang, as enemy combatants here within the United States to render them deportable. It's a similar and very familiar kind of move, like this idea that we are constantly at war and that there are enemies here in the United States, unlawful combatants that justify extraordinary steps that otherwise would be lawless in ordinary times.

[Andrew Weissman]

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. And your point that this is now coming onshore, that it's terrible when it's happening overseas, but it is also one where you're seeing the line blurred between war powers and normal domestic law enforcement, which has to obey the Constitution, being ignored here internally. Either way, it is bad. Either way, you're seeing this effort to basically get rid of the rule of law as long as you can label somebody bad in the same way the TDA was labeled as, you know, this is a violent gang. One of the things that even very conservative jurists pointed out was, you know what those people are entitled to say. You know what? You have to prove it. You have to prove that the person is part of the tda. And in fact, when the administration has had to do that, there are courts that have said, you know what, you don't even have the proof here, so you haven't even been able to show that you have identified the person who is in the group that should be treated this way.

[Melissa Murray]

And the Times has laid out some of the failures of proof here. So the Times says, quote, police arrest suspected drug dealers and it would be a crime to instead summarily gun them down. But in an armed conflict, it's lawful to kill combatants for the opposing force on site. Is that what this administration is doing? Essentially getting rid of all of the rules of the road in order to justify murder? And as you say, this is something that they are doing offshore, but there are also ways in which it might be coming onshore, this abandonment of established norms.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah, and this is where it really comes down to an area that you are such an expert in, which is that the courts generally have this deference to fact finding and to the sort of protection of the country from foreign threats, including foreign gangs, foreign countries. And so what is really going to be a challenge to judges is, is sort of deferring to the administration's fact finding when it's so clear that this is black and white and they're going to say that white is black when it isn't. And so the question is going to really be for the courts, how much are they going to say, you know what? That is not a good faith determination, when you are saying, for instance, what's happening in dropping bombs on Venezuelan boats, that there is no armed conflict, there is no imminence, there is no self defense, none of the things that would justify that. And it's going to be even more salient when it comes onshore. And we're talking about Attacks that are happening in Los Angeles, Portland, Chicago. And you have this sort of this quote from Stephen Miller about unleashing law enforcement. You know, what is a leash in this country? The Constitution of the United States. That is something that you have to adhere to. There's no unleashing and getting around that just by saying black is white.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, you've already alluded to this, but I'm going to invite you to say a little bit more. Yesterday, Trump told the generals that they were authorized to, quote, unquote, handle the enemy within. And now he's claiming these powers against enemies abroad. What's the link here? How do we bring all of this together?

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, I do think that, I mean, I think when I think about this, I really think about it as an eradication of the rule of law and a very cynical view that Americans, the sort of political view that they will think, you know what, as long as I want to get rid of immigrants that are vilified as being, you know, rapists and murderers, and as long as I'm going after drug dealers, that it's okay to have these kinds of violations. And I think by the same token, as the New York Times has pointed out, are Democrats going to be reluctant to criticize this on the theory that they'll look weak on crime? And as somebody who's been in law enforcement for over 20 years, you know what, you can be really strong on crime and you can want to prosecute it, and you can also obey the law when you do it.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Andrew, don't go anywhere. Sit tight. We'll see you back in just a few minutes. Up ahead, Trump's crackdown on American cities is escalating with more National Guard deployments. Also, Trump adviser Stephen Miller is under fire for what critics call his, quote, unhinged message to officers. But first, a Trump Cabinet member goes off script, fueling the push to release the Epstein files. I'll play what he said next. Hey, guys, have you heard of Gold Belly? It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants across the country, anywhere nationwide. I've never found a more perfect gift than food. Gold Belly ship, Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls, and even Ina Garten's famous cakes. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code GIFT. That's goldbelly.com, promo code GIFT.

[Lifelock Advertiser]

Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers. And sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.

[Melissa Murray]

I need a coffee.

[Lifelock Advertiser]

And you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix the guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] specialoffer terms apply.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety. With Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits. See if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.

[Melissa Murray]

New revelations undercutting Trump and his administration's claims about the Epstein files are raising fresh concerns that someone is lying. And surprisingly, this new information is coming from inside the administration, courtesy of Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick. Going off script, Lutnick is making new claims about how Jeffrey Epstein made his money.

[Howard Lutnick]

This guy was the greatest blackmailer ever blackmailed people. That's how he had money.

[Melissa Murray]

That is literally the complete opposite of what Trump's DOJ claimed in their now infamous July memo, which said, quote, there was also no credible evidence found that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals as part of his actions, end quote. Now, this leaves you with more questions than answers. You're not alone. Lutnick also divulged more about his first meeting with Epstein. Listen to his firsthand account.

[Howard Lutnick]

He gives me a tour in the living room, big living room. And then across from it is double doors. I assume it's the dining room.

[Andrew Weissman]

Yeah.

[Howard Lutnick]

And he opens the doors and there's a massage table in the middle of the room and candles all around and stuff. So I ask very insightful, cutting questions. I say to him, massage table in the middle of your house. How often you have a massage? And he says, every day. And then he, like, gets like, weirdly close to me.

[Andrew Weissman]

Oh.

[Howard Lutnick]

And he says, and the right kind of massage. Now my wife is standing here. So she looks at me and I look at her and we say, I'm sorry, we have to Go. That's what his M.O. was. You know, get a massage. Get a massage. And what happened in that massage room, I assume was on video.

[Melissa Murray]

And in that light, there are new questions about Epstein 2008 sweetheart plea deal with then U.S. attorney Alex Acosta, who later served as Trump's first term labor secretary.

[Howard Lutnick]

I assume way back when, they traded those videos in exchange for him getting that 18 month set. I mean, he's a serial sex offender. How could he get 18 months and be able to go to his office during the day and have visitors and stuff? It must have been a trade. I have no knowledge, but my assumption is there was a trade for the videos because there were people on those videos.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, that is a very big claim from a member of Trump's own Cabinet. At the same time, others in the administration, including Trump himself, maintain that there's nothing to see here, even going so far as to call all of this a Democratic hoax. Well, now Democrats are calling on Secretary Lutnick to testify before the House Oversight Committee. And all of this comes just weeks after Alex Acosta spoke to the House Oversight Committee. Behind closed doors, Democrats say that Acosta showed no remorse about striking that deal with Epstein. Indeed, one Democrat reported that Acosta, quote, does not feel, even in hindsight, that Jeffrey Epstein received a sweetheart deal. So who's telling the truth here? All of these contradictions and suspicions are a great reason to release the Epstein files. But House Speaker Mike Johnson is balking. The speaker is delaying swearing in a newly elected Arizona Democrat. Why the delay? Who knows? What we do know is that if seated, this new member of the House would be the final clinching vote to force the release of the Epstein files. And with the government shutdown, House Republicans are in no rush to vote on this. I have two perfect guests who are going to help us break all of this down. And that's going to happen when we're back, right after this break.

[Howard Lutnick]

So I was never in the room with him socially for business or even philanthropy. If that guy was there, I wasn't going because he's gross.

[Melissa Murray]

Joining me now to discuss all of this is Asha Rangapa, former FBI special agent and senior lecturer at Yale University. And Andrew Weissman is back with us. Asha, obviously not everyone in the Trump administration is singing from the same hymnal. What's your reaction to Cabinet Secretary Lutnick contradicting the DOJ on Epstein?

[Asha Rangappa]

Well, politically, he clearly stepped in, right? This, this whole idea that Epstein was blackmailing people and that's how he made his money, which we may or which may or may not be true, is definitely a MAGA conspiracy talking point. But here's the thing, Lissa, is the only way to verify whether that's true is to understand what was actually recovered from the Epstein residents. And, you know, their. The FBI files would have logs of. Of whatever they recovered and what those videos contained, et cetera, et cetera. And I think it highlights the red herring of the release of the grand jury testimony and how that really has nothing to do with what may potentially be in the FBI's possession.

[Melissa Murray]

So, Andrew, among some of the things that may be in the Epstein files is this question that Lutnick has surfaced that there was perhaps a trade with the tapes being exchanged for this sweetheart deal in the Southern District of Florida first. Would that even be possible as part of a prosecution? Is that kind of deal, like tapes for freedom, possible?

[Andrew Weissman]

Well, it's possible. If you're asking is it possible. Proper. Obviously it's not proper. It is worth noting that that part is sort of what I call, you know, speculation or an educated guess on his part. I'm actually more interested in the, as you put it, Melissa, the firsthand account where you have somebody who has no problem displaying the massage table and then sort of talking with a sort of wink, wink, nod, nod Openly, though, to Mr. Lutnick, because that belies, for instance, Ghislaine Maxwell saying, oh, I never saw or heard anything untoward going on. The people who knew him well, which includes our current president, saying, oh, I don't know anything where you have this sort of firsthand account from somebody who has no reason to be lying about it. I'm sure behind the scenes, people are talking to him saying, you know, what in God's green earth made you give that interview? And so he's describing someone who's quite open about the lifestyle and is, to use his phrase, the sort of. The grossness of it. And so it really belies all the people saying, I didn't know anything.

[Melissa Murray]

Asha, Andrew makes a good point. A lot of this is Lutnick speculating, and these are wild claims about which he is speculating, and many of them would require evidence to corroborate. Does this put more pressure on Congress to vote to release the files? And if so, what do we make of Speaker Johnson's reluctance to bring this to a vote?

[Asha Rangappa]

I think it will definitely increase the pressure to release this again. This is someone from inside the tribe who's basically validating for the base something that they have been suspecting for a long time. So I think that this is going to be complicated for them. You know, I, I don't know what to make of the reluctance to, to, to release these, Melissa. I mean, this is something this, the promise to release these files was literally part of this whole campaign promise for this administration. So this about face is very odd. And on the Acosta point, one thing that I will say is that, you know, nobody talks about this, but There is a 348 page office of Professional Responsibility investigation into the sweetheart deal that Acosta made. One of the details that's in there, by the way, is that there was, you know, these, a potential indictment that was moving apace, you know, within the office until Acosta went and met with Epstein's lawyers. And then all of a sudden the investigation was stalled and put on hold. So I've just been surprised that that piece of it hasn't been pushed on more. And I don't know if that is considered part of the Epstein files, but I would imagine that that would be something that would reveal a lot of information as well.

[Melissa Murray]

One more thing. We are talking a lot about Lutnick's revelations, the speculations, and it leads me to sort of feel a little uncomfortable in part because we're not really talking about the survivors here. And a number of the survivors of Epstein's abuse say that they were actually trafficked people. And perhaps some of this sheds light on those claims. But it seems like those voices, the voices of the survivors are once again being overshadowed in this conversation. What's your view on that?

[Asha Rangappa]

I completely agree. I mean, I think one of the biggest slaps in the face where Todd Blanche met with Glenn Maxwell is if you really want more information, why aren't you going and speaking to the victims? They all, you know, have a lot of information. Some of it may not have been able to be used in an actual prosecution. But at this point, if what you're trying to do is try to understand what's going on here. And so, you know, to what Andrew was saying earlier, it just belies all of the stated reasons that this administration has been giving for these weird maneuvers that they have been engaging in to distract and I think to bring it all home. I don't think Lutnick's comments are going to do anything to make this go away.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Asha Rangapa, Andrew Weissman, thanks so much for being here with this. Up next, backlash after a Trump White House aide issued an alarming message to law enforcement. That's up next. We now turn to a striking escalation in Trump's Crackdown on American cities. ICE agents are making headlines in Colorado tonight after an altercation involving an infant. A local paper reports, quote, agents pointed guns at and then smashed the window of a car carrying a couple and their one month old baby. As of Tuesday evening, the father no longer appeared on ICE's inmate locator website and the mother did not know where he was. Here is some cell phone video of that incident. And I'll warn you that you may find this disturbing.

[Asha Rangappa]

What is, what, what is he being pulled over for?

[Melissa Murray]

What is he being pulled over for?

[Asha Rangappa]

There's a child.

[Howard Lutnick]

There's a baby, bro.

[Asha Rangappa]

There's a baby. Can you guys have a little bit mercy, dude?

[Melissa Murray]

A shocking and disturbing use of force as ICE comes under scrutiny for raising the temperature during these raids. All of this comes as National Guard troops descend on a new city. Memphis, Tennessee. White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller has issued an unsettling message to law enforcement on the ground in Memphis.

[Andrew Weissman]

I see the guns in this room. You are unleashed. The handcuffs that you're carrying, they're not on you anymore. They're on the criminals. And whatever you need to get it done, we're going to get it done.

[Melissa Murray]

And it should come as no surprise that the administration is happy with the results of these efforts. Attorney General Pamela Joe Bondi touted recent arrests as Trump's supposed crime crackdown gets underway. Memphis is the fourth city to which Trump has deployed National Guard troops, and he has vowed that there is more to come. Politicians and citizens across the state of Tennessee, however, are pushing back.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

It's not something that I believe is going to help reduce crime in our cities.

[Justin J. Pearson]

As far as I'm concerned, this is.

[Andrew Weissman]

Not a war on crime.

[Justin J. Pearson]

This is a war on the working class.

[Asha Rangappa]

I don't want this for Memphis.

[Melissa Murray]

I also don't want this for Nashville. I really don't want it for any US City.

[Justin J. Pearson]

They are coming to hurt, harm, destroy, disrupt and confuse our citizens. In addition to stoke fear, don't bring the National Guard. Give us the resources that we need for our people, for our city, for our county.

[Melissa Murray]

That last speaker you saw was Tennessee State Representative Justin J. Pearson, who joins me now. He represents parts of Memphis. Representative Pearson, you just heard Stephen Miller advising National Guard troops that they are unleashed. What does this mean for your constituents in Memphis?

[Justin J. Pearson]

It's dangerous. And this has been dangerous since it was suggested by the administration to go after Democratic cities, but particularly cities with black leadership. Stephen Miller is a known white nationalist and supports white supremacist ideology. And so the fact that our city is going to be targeted, that my constituents and people who I care for are going to be targeted by these 13 federal agencies is deeply concerning.

[Melissa Murray]

So the Memphis police have released a mid year report contradicting the President's claim that the reason the troops are being deployed is because of rising crime. The report that was released by the Memphis Police shows that overall crime is at a 25 year low. You've acknowledged that this has not always been the case and that crime has been an issue in the city in the past. But are you agreeing with the administration that the deployment of federal troops is a good way to address this? The President says that this is a welcomed intervention. Here's him talking now about Memphis Mayor Paul Young, who apparently, according to the President, welcomes this kind of assistance.

[Howard Lutnick]

We're going to Memphis. Memphis is deeply troubled and the mayor is happy. He's a Democrat mayor, the mayor is happy. And the governor, Tennessee. The governor is happy. Deeply troubled. We're going to fix that just like we did Washington.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, a couple of false claims there, one about the state of crime in Memphis, also about Mayor Young's interest in this kind of help. In your view, is the intervention of federal troops groups likely to assist local law enforcement in reducing crime in Memphis in a meaningful way and is it worth the trade offs?

[Justin J. Pearson]

This is not going to help reduce crime in a meaningful way. And this doesn't have anything to do with crime. It's perpetuating the idea of black criminality and from a government perspective, black inferiority as it relates to self government and our inability, according to this administration and Governor Bill Lee and Cameron Sexton and the leaders of the Republican Party in Tennessee, of our ability to be able to self govern. But this is also a guise for what could be happening in the midterms and for the presidential election. We could see that our communities and our streets are going to have not just troops, but other federal agencies that are going to be preventing people from being able to engage in the democratic process. This is only one step. This is not how it ends. When you see authoritarianism like this rise, when you have a wannabe dictator, white supremacist president of the United States, spewing hateful ideology and trying to take over cities, it should concern every single American because we still do have a constitution that should be followed. And Governor Bill Lee and his advocacy, even of having the National Guard in our city is unconstitution. It's against the Tennessee state constitution. But they're burning that up all for desire for political points and making us pawns in their game instead of giving us the billions of dollars of resources that we need to end poverty in our city.

[Melissa Murray]

I want to touch on something that you just mentioned. You represent a blue city. There are other members of the state legislature who represent blue cities. But you are overwhelmed in a state legislature that is dominated by Republicans. What is the path to path forward for you and your colleagues on the in the Democratic Caucus for resisting this within the state legislature and across Tennessee?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Absolutely.

[Justin J. Pearson]

One, we have to continue to force the following of our constitution. There's an attorney general's opinion that explicitly says that the National Guard cannot be deployed unless there is an invasion in our city. That is not happening. So anything that the governor does is going to be unconstitutional. For my colleagues and myself who have a voice and want to advocate, we have to do that work. We have to speak up and we have to follow the leadership of organizations like Free, the 901. And in D.C. there's an organization, Free D.C. we need to let the people who we represent help to guide us, but use our voices in order to be a part of the fight and demand that we get the billions, hundreds of millions and billions in investments that we need while simultaneously demanding that laws get passed that this governor has refused to pass to end the gun violence epidemic, despite the fact that it's the number one killer of children in the state. Make sure that we continue to lift up the voices that are being silenced, particularly in our immigrant community, who are beloved people in our community as well. We have to be in the fight and in the struggle with them and show them that we are here together. It's about all of us.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, State Representative Justin J. Pearson, thanks so much for joining us. We will be right back. The world lost an icon this week, and so tonight we pay tribute to renowned conservationist Jane Goodall, who passed away yesterday. She was 91 years old. Goodall was a primatologist, an anthropologist, and a climate change activist who dedicated her life to helping wild animals. Her extensive work with chimpanzees advanced the way scientists studied not just primates, but all animals. In a 2022 interview with Ari, Goodall shared her thoughts about President Trump after watching a montage of key moments during the 2016 campaign. And perhaps unsurprisingly, Goodall's expertise in chimpanzee behavior informed her observations. Take a listen. I see the same sort of behavior.

[Asha Rangappa]

As a male chimpanzee will show when.

[Melissa Murray]

He'S competing for dominance with another.

[Asha Rangappa]

They're upright they swagger.

[Melissa Murray]

They project themselves as really more large and aggressive than they may actually be in order to intimidate their rivals. Jane Goodall. Having the last word, that does it for me. Ari is back tomorrow night.

[Lifelock Advertiser]

Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers. And sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.

[Melissa Murray]

I need a coffee.

[Lifelock Advertiser]

And you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] specialoffer terms apply.