Maduro & Wife Plead Not Guilty

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Maduro & Wife Plead Not Guilty
Date: January 6, 2026
Host: Ari Melber

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode covers the fallout and implications of the dramatic U.S. operation that extracted and arrested Venezuelan leader Nicolás Maduro and his wife. Ari Melber dives into the facts of the case, the legality and motivations behind the Trump administration's controversial action, and the responses of experts, diplomats, military leaders, and those on the ground in the region. The episode is framed by serious questions about U.S. foreign policy, the return to "imperial" interventionism, Congressional oversight, and the precarious future of Venezuela.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Arrest and Arraignment of Nicolás Maduro (03:16–05:18)

• Maduro and his wife appeared in a Manhattan federal courtroom, pleading not guilty to long-standing charges of narco-terror and drug trafficking.
• The high-profile extraction was conducted without prior Congressional authorization, sparking questions about the legality and motivations of the Trump administration’s action.
• Maduro claims, “I have been kidnapped since Saturday. I was captured at my home in Caracas.” (03:45)

2. The Disarray of U.S. Policy and Mixed Messaging (05:18–07:54)

• Trump and his officials send conflicting signals about the purpose of the intervention.
  • Trump: “We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition.” (05:18)
  • Ambassador Wayne: “What we are running is the direction.” (05:26)
• Lack of clarity and coordination between president, diplomats, and national security advisors highlights a policy going “off the rails.”

3. Congressional Oversight and War Powers (04:01–07:54)

• Melber underscores how the operation skirts constitutional guidelines:
  • The War Powers Act and Congressional authorization were ignored.
  • Comparison to the Iraq war, which, unlike this, was at least authorized by Congress.

4. Trump’s Emphasis on Oil and Business Ties (07:30–08:57)

• Trump openly admits to prioritizing U.S. oil business interests:
  • “All of them, basically, they want to go in so badly before the operation took place. Yes, before and after.” (07:30)
  • Claims to have tipped off businesses before Congress.
  • Oil companies deny being consulted.
• Melber questions whether the operation was about restoring democracy or serving business interests.

5. Violations of International Law (09:04–10:48)

• Melber details expert opinions that the U.S. extraction is an “illegal war,” violating Article 2 of the UN Charter.
• Parallels drawn to historical U.S. regime changes (Vietnam, Iraq, Somalia, Libya) emphasize the long-term risks and regrets.

6. Expert and Military Analyses (13:21–21:09)

- General Barry McCaffrey:

• Calls the operation “a fantasy” and “astonishing.” (13:21)
• Notes significant military achievement but condemns threats to neighboring countries and lack of Congressional involvement:
  • “We're being governed by whim and by decree. Mr. Trump doesn't have a clue what he's doing on page two in Venezuela.” (14:39)

- Ambassador James Story:

• Argues no real regime change has occurred—power remains with entrenched corrupt actors.
• “I would just merely suggest that, well, there are 900 political prisoners still in the country. There are wrongfully detained Americans still being detained. I don't see us being in charge.” (15:34)
• Warns that without a real plan, Venezuela risks further instability and “chaos.”

7. Regional and Historical Context (21:09–23:27)

• Ambassador Story frames the action as a dangerous return to post–WWII “spheres of influence” and gunboat diplomacy.
• Highlights the failure of previous U.S. interventions in Latin America and stresses the need for multilateral action with partners.

8. The Rise of Trump’s “Imperial” Rhetoric (25:38–30:03)

• Trump justifies actions with references to the Monroe Doctrine:
  • “It's our hemisphere. The Monroe Doctrine was very important when it was done… I didn't lose sight.” (25:38)
• Melber extensively critiques this “belligerent, imperialist kind of colonial messaging.”
  • The administration posts taunts (“F around and find out”), threats, and even hip-hop lyrics as foreign policy signals.
• Trump threatens other countries directly:
  • “I think Cuba is going to be something we'll end up talking about… You have to do something with Mexico. Mexico has to get their act together. We need Greenland from a national security situation.” (29:41)

9. Diplomatic Warnings and Reflections (33:15–37:34)

• Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne:
  • Cautions that removing a bad leader is one thing—creating a durable and widely supported government is another.
  • “You have to be really delicate because you’re going to be moving into a situation where this will cause precedence for other countries in the region.” (33:19)
• On Trump’s improvisational approach to foreign policy:
  • “I think there’s a lot of room for developing that plan and for bringing other people together around that plan.” (36:23)
  • On diplomatic language: “We wouldn’t quite say this plan sucks. We would say we need more body to it to bring others on board.” (36:48)

10. The Uncertain Situation in Venezuela (39:33–43:38)

• Reporter David Noriega (on the ground in Colombia):
  • Describes split reactions inside and outside Venezuela; inside, people are apprehensive and bracing for chaos.
  • Reports on enforced political silence due to “colectivos”—paramilitary gangs.
  • Notes rivals in the regime could lead to further violence and instability.
  • “Every Venezuelan I’ve spoken to… were genuinely shocked that this happened.” (41:35)
  • “If or when the current state of affairs collapses, the country will collapse into something very like chaos.” (43:10)

11. Closing: Congressional Briefing and Ongoing Uncertainty (45:38–46:08)

• Melber reports Congress is finally being briefed.
• Emphasizes the speed and unpredictability of events, with more details to come in the days ahead.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Ari Melber:
  “Tonight, there is, at minimum, major confusion, if not outright revulsion, at what the Trump administration has done in the name of the American people without their input or consent through Congress or any other way.” (02:30)
• Nicolás Maduro (via Melber):
  “I have been kidnapped since Saturday. I was captured at my home in Caracas.” (03:45)
• Donald Trump:
  “We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition.” (05:18) “All of them, basically, they want to go in so badly before the operation took place.” (07:30)
  “It's our hemisphere. The Monroe Doctrine was very important when it was done. And other presidents, a lot of them, they lost sight of it. I didn't.” (25:38)
  “I think Cuba is going to be something we'll end up talking about because Cuba is a failing nation right now. Colombia is very sick too, run by a sick man. He's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you. You have to do something with Mexico. Mexico has to get there, act together. We need Greenland from a national security situation.” (29:41)
• General Barry McCaffrey:
  “We're being governed by whim and by decree. Mr. Trump doesn't have a clue what he's doing on page two in Venezuela. No good will come at us the way it's been conducted.” (14:39)
• Ambassador James Story:
  “There are 900 political prisoners still in the country. There are wrongfully detained Americans still being detained. I don't see us being in charge.” (15:34) “You cannot operate unilaterally, especially against transnational criminal organizations that operate transnationally…” (21:09)
• David Noriega:
  “Every Venezuelan I’ve spoken to inside Venezuela, as well as people here in Colombia, were genuinely shocked that this happened…” (41:35) “If or when the current state of affairs collapses, the country will collapse into something very like chaos.” (43:10)
• Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne:
  “You have to be really delicate because you’re going to be moving into a situation where this will cause precedence for other countries in the region.” (33:19) (On diplomatic language) “We wouldn’t quite say this plan sucks. We would say we need more body to it to bring others on board.” (36:48)

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Noteworthy Segments (Timestamps)

| Segment | Time | |---------------------------------------------|-----------| | Introduction & Arrest of Maduro | 02:30–05:18 | | Mixed U.S. Signals / Policy Disarray | 05:18–07:54 | | Trump’s Oil Business Motivations | 07:30–08:57 | | Legal & Historical Context | 09:04–12:00 | | Gen. McCaffrey & Amb. Story Analysis | 13:21–21:09 | | The Return of ‘Gunboat Diplomacy’ | 25:38–30:03 | | Diplomatic Perspective: Amb. Wayne | 33:15–37:34 | | On-the-Ground Reporting: David Noriega | 39:33–43:38 | | Congressional Briefing Update | 45:38–46:08 |

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Tone and Language

The episode maintains Ari Melber’s signature blend of legalistic rigor, sharp skepticism, and plainspoken critique. The tone toggles between urgent, analytical, and occasionally sardonic—especially when unpacking administration rhetoric or the lack of coherent policy planning. Experts and guests are direct, sometimes blunt, but diplomatic in phrasing, especially in critiques of the administration’s approach.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a thorough, multi-dimensional examination of the U.S. operation to oust and arrest Nicolás Maduro, unpacking the legal, strategic, and human consequences. Melber and his guests agree on two critical points: the operation lacked proper planning, Congressional oversight, and multilateral legitimacy; and its aftermath risks long-term instability for Venezuela and U.S. leadership in the world. A must-listen for anyone invested in foreign policy, democratic norms, or Latin American affairs.

Transcript

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

Hey, y'.

[Donald Trump]

All.

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[Ari Melber]

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[Donald Trump]

Time.

[General Barry McCaffrey]

Nice.

[Ari Melber]

You got nine out of a lot. Not too bad. Keep practicing by visiting Wayfair.com which you can shop every style for every home. Wayfair, Every style, every home. All right, guys, so check this out. Have you ever heard of Gold Belly? Okay, so it's this amazing site where you can order the most iconic famous foods from restaurants all across the country, and they will ship it straight to your door. That's right. These guys will ship you Philly cheesesteaks from Jim's or Pat's in Philly, Buffalo wings from the Anchor Bar in Buffalo, and even Kansas City's most legendary barbecue. So if you're looking to host an epic super bowl party, go to GoBilly.com and get free shipping and 20% off your first order with promo code Gameday. Welcome to the beat, everyone. I'm Ari Melber wishing you a happy new year. As we look at the current state of play, we begin with the ousted Venezuela leader Nicolas Maduro. He was in a federal courtroom in Manhattan today, the product of this controversial Trump administration foreign policy action. And we're going to report on all of that, the facts, the law, such as it is, and where we go from here. Tonight, there is, at minimum, major confusion, if not outright revulsion, at what the Trump administration has done in the name of the American people without their input or consent through Congress or any other way. And there are questions now about the president's motives and plans across the board. Even as many people look at the extraction effort and say, okay, the military did its job. They understood the assignment, they completed the objective. But what is the purpose of all this? Well, we begin with what's happening today, of course. This morning, Maduro and his wife were in federal court in the United States after that extraction that made so much, so much controversial waves and attention across this weekend. Surely you watch the news, you've heard about it. So you're looking at the courtroom sketches that would be like any other case, except this is not like any other's case. We can tell you. Maduro and his wife pled not guilty to a set of charges that have basically been developed over the years in the United States under multiple justice departments, and that includes NARCO terror and drug trafficking. Maduro used his appearance in American court today, which is effectively the first time he's really had a platform to say anything after this unusual foreign policy attack and use of warlike United States power, to say, quote, I have been kidnapped since Saturday. I was captured at my home in Caracas. A helicopter transported Maduro and his wife from where they were being held in federal custody in a Brooklyn jail this morning. You can see that transfer there. The armored van then drove them to the federal courthouse. Maduro also asserted what is under at least international law and territorial jurisdiction, a fact as best we understood it, including according to the interim leadership of his country. Since he was extracted, he said, and I read this quote, simply, I am still president of my country. Now, as mentioned in Venezuela, Del C. Rodriguez, who was basically their version of his vice president, was also, as a practical matter, sworn in as the interim president. With Maduro being held under his resistance inside the United States, Secretary of State Rubio, Defense Secretary Hegseth, and other Trump officials are doing now what they refuse to do in advance or even in the hours after this operation became public, which is after this delay briefing top lawmakers in both parties, there will be questions about what they are doing, what the plans are, and why. From the beginning of this operation, so many of the war powers that the Trump administration insists on wielding are done directly, without any consultation or discussion, let alone formal authorization or vote from the United States Congress. You don't have to be a history buff to remember how much Donald Trump, the candidate, criticized the Republican Bush administration for the Iraq war. Trump, like many others, deemed it a failure, costly, external regime change, et cetera. But even that war, however unpopular it proved to be, was, of course, authorized by Congress. That is the way the Constitution and the War Powers act envisions the use of these kind of war powers, period. Now, this issue is, as the Washington Post puts it, clouded in confusion. What the Trump administration is literally doing. Are we going to try to run this country, which is all about double the population of Iraq? If you would have asked any American going into, say, the Christmas break, which countries should we be at war with, or is there a country that we want to run? Almost no one would say, let's go spend time, treasure and risk on Venezuela for whatever reasons, and Trump and Rubio are, even as they oversee this project, essentially contradicting each other.

[Donald Trump]

We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition.

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

What we are running is the direction.

[Ari Melber]

That this is gonna Move moving forward.

[Donald Trump]

Don't ask me who's in charge, because I'll give you an answer and it'll be very controversial.

[Ambassador James Story]

What does that mean?

[Donald Trump]

That means we're in charge.

[Wayfair Spokesperson (Styles Mackenzie or Olivia from Ollie)]

Are you running Venezuela right now?

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

Yeah. I mean, I keep people, you know, fixating on that. It's not running, it's running policy.

[Ari Melber]

The policy with regards to this. The president, we're running it in charge. His chief diplomat, national security advisor, who was involved in all this, says no, not that. That's the first clue that something has already gone off the rails. Whatever one thinks about Maduro and the many terrible autocrats around the world, the fact that the president and his chief diplomat can't keep their story straight in the opening days of this action, the president also didn't do what you would expect any president to do and even one like him, mindful of public relations, what they usually do is give a presentation to the country or an Oval Office address. President Trump recently did that for a small, more minor item, quite frankly, his sort of update on the country and the economy, but didn't bother that here or the congressional authorization or consultation, as I mentioned. So if you want to know why we are down there and whether we are running the place or not, you can't get a straight answer as we start the week on Monday after the weekend operation. Now, there is a problem with drug trafficking in the region that's well known. But Trump has started talking a lot about oil and claiming that this is a kind of a long term capitalist plan to help nationalist US Oil companies, that he tipped off businesses that might do more oil production. Potentially, by the way, that's a long term project with a lot of complexity, but businesses tied to the United States economy that might do more of that. And he says he tipped them off before even Congress.

[Donald Trump]

All of them, basically, they want to go in so badly before the operation took place. Yes, before and after.

[Wayfair Spokesperson (Styles Mackenzie or Olivia from Ollie)]

What's going to happen to those reserves?

[Donald Trump]

Well, we're going to run everything. We're going to run it, fix it. We'll have elections at the right time. But the main thing you have to fix is a broken country.

[Ari Melber]

There is so much in those couple statements. I'm just going to walk you through them because this is important. Number one, Donald Trump is claiming that these business and oil interests came before you, the American public, as represented by your Congress, as we go to war. And however this operation went, they didn't know in advance. So you usually want your Congress involved. What if more troops were pulled into it? What if More American soldiers were at risk or killed. That's why we have Congress involved in war powers. But he says he went to the businesses first. Second, as with so many other claims by this administration, the question also immediately becomes, because of their lack of credibility, is that even true? Did he go to those other oil companies before Congress? Several US Oil companies, which of course are governed by all kinds of laws and SEC regulations and energy laws, are saying they have boards, they have stockholders that, quote, the Trump administration has not consulted them, according to oil executives. The Times reports Maduro's regular public dancing and other displays of, quote, nonchalance were actually part of what persuaded some on the Trump team that the president was mocking them and trying to call what he believed to be a bluff. That is reporting on a very different motive, one of a more perhaps personal or vindictive nature. And Trump's anger, the Post reports about the opposition leader Machado winning the Nobel Prize, something that he has openly pined for, has also reportedly affected his view of trying to pick winners and losers in that country's independent autonomous project. Call it political leadership because they don't have a traditionally healthy democracy right now. But his jealousy of her has potentially distorted his ability to work with her as the Nobel winning opposition leader. One insider at the White House saying, if she turned it down and said, I can't accept it because it's Trump's, she'd be the president of Venezuela today. And so those are just some of the top line questions about what we're doing down there and why we're down there. Then you have the entire war of it all. Because either this is one of the most costly legal operations in American history because the administration has claimed they view this as law enforcement. Of course, we don't usually have 30 people killed around the world in order to extract or arrest one suspect. So either it's a highly costly, failed law enforcement operation or it's war. And if it's war, it's an illegal war. And if you watch this program, you know that when there are three or four sides to something or it's murky, we will report that out. But the fact that we're broadcasting inside the United States does not prevent us from identifying when the United States is breaking the UN Charter. And international law experts point out that unlike those boat strikes, which, however controversial, were conducted in international waters, this new operation striking Venezuela and abducting its president clearly violates Article 2 of the UN Charter that deals with the use of force coming out of World War II and everything that the powers that be in the west were supposed to have learned. Again, reading from this, it says that prohibition is the bedrock rule of the international system that separates the rule of law from anarchy. The consequences of flouting this rule so brazenly are likely to extend well beyond the case of Maduro's forcible ouster. I quote that at length because it is a fair and clear reading of what this is. War powers, regime change. Something that the United States has repeatedly regretted in large scale efforts like changing the regime of Vietnam or Iraq and in smaller arenas, Somalia, Libya. In fact, if you follow American history, foreign policy and the ensuing politics at all, and admittedly sometimes the politics lag by years. That was the case in Vietnam and Iraq. But if you follow it at all, you know how often we have come to regret being rushed into aggressive wars. Regime change meaning that we're not defending ourself or even our interests, but just going out and saying, well, there's 183 countries and we're going to pick who we want to be in charge. And we're going to expect that because we do have a mighty military, there won't be blowback. And yet the entire post World War II orders, the United nations, the Declaration of Human Rights, the UN Security Council, all of these things that were built directly with the involvement of the great powers, including of course United States, were to avoid exactly these kind of sugar high, quick hit regime change quagmires that are at risk. And that has nothing to do with anyone's political opinions of Donald Trump. It just has to do with whether you know anything about our lived, learned lessons in history. That is just some of what's on our minds. But we are grateful to have two esteemed experts who can further edify us tonight. Ambassador James Story was the ambassador to Venezuela from 2018 to 2023 and an analyst we've relied on for many difficult foreign policy stories. General Barry McCaffrey, retired four star army general. I can mention they're both Ms. Now analysts. Uh, General, your thoughts tonight?

[General Barry McCaffrey]

Well, Ari, there's an element of fantasy to all this. I've spent a lot of time in the Latin America since I was in my 20s. I know a great deal about Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Venezuela. It's an astonishing situation. We should take note. It was a remarkable military operation. Audacious, complex, achieved, surprised. They got two targets out of the country without getting them killed. At the end of the day, it wasn't just electronic warfare and coordination. 150 aircraft. It was army Delta operators on the ground, who the Cubans say killed 30 of their security agents who helped prop up the Maduro regime. Now, having said that, we have never seen in American history a president who would threaten Colombia. You're next. You'd better watch your ass. And I quote, a ground operation in Colombia would be something I'd consider. And in the context, he said this about Greenland, Panama, Mexico, annexing Canada. And throughout all this, the only important thing is under Article 1 of the Constitution, Congress has been supine, uninvolved. So we're being governed by whim and by decree. Mr. Trump doesn't have a clue what he's doing on page two in Venezuela. No good will come at us the way it's been conducted.

[Ari Melber]

Ambassador.

[Ambassador James Story]

Well, as always, General McCaffrey makes a ton of good points. It's good to see you again, sir. Last time was in Afghanistan 15, 20 years ago. Now, 15 years ago, you know, there was a. There was a tremendous amount of planning that went into the operation itself. A tremendous success. And it appears that the question and then what was failed to be. Failed to be answered. There are, There are repercussions to these actions. And the idea that there, there's kind of the contours of a concept of a plan moving forward, they use earlier ari. The. The term regime change. This is the same regime with different leadership. There's no change here. I know Delcey Rodriguez, and we left behind. I know her well, she and her brother, and we left behind Diosana Cabello, who's a very bad actor, frankly. And then you have Vladimir Pogino Lopez, who's been in charge of the military since the crustacean period. Right. He's been there forever. So you've got a group of people there. You have these different power bases there. And if the idea is that somehow we're in charge, I would just merely suggest that, well, there are 900 political prisoners still in the country. There are wrongfully detained Americans still being detained. I don't see us being in charge. And if the idea. I don't know what the objective is. For me, the objective is restoration democracy. There was an election last year that was won by Mundo Gonzalez. It has been very destabilizing what Maduro has wrought to the region. But if the idea is that this is somehow going to become an economic play, I don't see, as you rightly pointed out earlier, boardrooms saying, yeah, we're going to put more money into Venezuela when it's the same exact regime in charge, no independent judiciary, no sanctity of contract. I wonder how we're going to reach the objective, if that's the objective. Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

And, Ambassador, I'll read from what you wrote. Without significant security forces on the ground, which again goes to what we've learned from past follies, it's hard to see how a failed state riddled with illegal armed groups and foreign terror organizations will somehow remain stable merely by removing a deeply unpopular dictator. Ambassador.

[Ambassador James Story]

Without a doubt, right now we're going to be asking Delta Rodriguez to do things that at some point are going to come up against the hard wall of reality of what Diesada Cabello doesn't want to have happen. I'll give you a vignette. In 2018, a member of Congress visited Venezuela. While I was there, met with Maduro and someone I knew, a local councilman, Fernando Alman, was thrown off the 10th floor of the Helicoide, which is the torture center that was run by Diesel Cabello. Clearly doing that to tell Maduro, don't negotiate with the gringos without me. This is the kind of person this is. So if you imagine at any point in time Delta Rodriguez gets out of line, he can play spoiler because he controls the security services in the country as well as the criminal network and gangs that run and threaten and intimidate political opposition Actors.

[General Barry McCaffrey]

Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

General McCaffrey, this is one of those shockwave events that even though there was a buildup both in the region, as the ambassador was discussing around the world, in the United States, people are still coming out of this weekend going, whoa, I guess this is what we're doing now. And so it would seem that in the days ahead, it's going to be very important for Americans to learn and understand what's being done in their name and whether they want more of this or not. And we have an election this year. The Wall Street Journal, which is the print outlet sister of Fox News, says in returning to this form of, quote, gunboat diplomacy in Venezuela, Trump has spurned the usual veneer of armed interventions, acting without an Oval Office speech justifying the attack, congressional authorization, a promise of elections in a foreign land, or even, as you both noted tonight, a detailed plan for its future. And so, General, what happens in the days ahead? Okay, a congressional briefing here or there, but Trump is openly threatening multiple other countries. It would seem that there's a breaking point somewhere. If we have warlike powers being exercised against multiple countries, do we still have a constitutional limit here?

[General Barry McCaffrey]

Well, by the way, something has to be said. To add to the ambassador's terrific comments On Venezuela, the Trump administration action against that country. There's an element of goofy to it. I mean, from the start I said it was about oil. It was about Maduro a hard out, Shell a hard in. That's what they were up to. They think they're going to get 300 billion barrels of oil reserves, drop the price of energy. It'll be positive impact on the United States economy. They didn't take into account over 2000 Admirals and Generals in the Venezuelan armed forces who have two sources of income, drug transit money and oil being sold to China. Probably 80% of it going out to this ghost lady. They're not going to let go of the golden goose here. There was no plan. Hopefully the CIA by the way, at this time is in talking to the security services and trying to convince them to let a legitimate government back into power. But I don't think we have a clue what's going to happen in Venezuela. Except it's unlikely we're going to run it. And it's even more unlikely that Shell Oil is going to put $10 billion and five to 10 years of effort in reviving the oil fields which are in the control of the generals. There's just no sense to all of it. Never mind these threats to Colombia. You're next. What kind of talk is that? The President of the United States.

[Ari Melber]

Ambassador, what should Americans learn or keep in mind about this complicated region with a lot of problems across civil military relations, corruption, but quite frankly a lot of failed US interventions when they're done on the cheap or on a short term mindset.

[Ambassador James Story]

Well, it seems like we had an interregnum of 35 years from operation Just Cause till today where we weren't intervening in the affairs of others. And maybe we're going back to this how we used to operate. And you mentioned earlier, Ari, the kind of the post World War II order. Now we're talking spheres of influence. I think we need to remember a couple of things. As General McCaffrey pointed out, the Article 1 Power of the Congress. Congress is back in session today. I know that a number of people are going to be looking hard at this and we also work better. We worked with our, with our international partners. We have a great relationship. I've had historically great relationship with Columbia. Petro is an interesting character. I'll not throw any ad hominent attacks out there against him. He's not my cup of tea. But having said that, the country has been extraordinarily important to us in the fight against counter narcotics and also Some of these foreign terrorist organizations, such as the FARC and eln, these transnational criminal organizations are fundamentally undermining democracies across the region. They can get to a guy like Juan Orlando Hernandez, the former president of Honduras, and turn him, turn him into a drug trafficker, even though he was recently granted a pardon. His brother's still in jail for drug trafficking, for instance. So we have to work as partners in the region. You cannot operate unilaterally, especially against transnational criminal organizations that operate transnationally, definitionally, you have to work with others. Again, if I were in a position to be briefing the president and briefing the secretary of state, I'd lay out, hey, we got to quickly have a plan here. You should have had a plan before, I think, when Maduro was captured. And again, I'm actually of the opinion that having Maduro out of Venezuela is a net positive. But what comes after is the most important piece of it. And you have to have kind of laid out and we did this in March of 2020. We had a framework for democratic transition. Dust it off, update it and lay out how this is going to look. And let's get to elections as quickly as possible. I'd love to see Maria Corina Machado back in Venezuela. If we're running the place, you should be able to come back. Right. These are things that the people of Venezuela spoke. 70% of the people voted Maduro out of power. And I'd like to see democracy take hold there again.

[Ari Melber]

Right. Well, again, I think it's very useful. We appreciate you being on tonight and people who can listen to both. You understand the depth of experience you have both in the region and with the complexity of this kind of international policy planning. And in sometimes diplomatic terms, which makes sense. Ambassador, what you do in diplomatic terms, you've suggested that the administration in serious ways does not know what it's doing and hasn't planned for a serious situation. We could wish them the best, but we also have to be clear eyed. My thanks to both of you. We have a 90 second break and then when we return, we look at the rise of Trump imperialism. That's next.

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[Donald Trump]

Ollie, We need total access. We need access to the oil and to other things in their country that allow us to rebuild their country at peace. It's our hemisphere. The Monroe Doctrine was very important when it was done. And other presidents, a lot of them, they lost sight of it. I didn't. I didn't lose sight. But it really is its lease on earth.

[Ari Melber]

Donald Trump making his case. He has of course, captured Maduro. Experts are concerned on a number of fronts. As we've been reporting, the references to history and restoring it are a double edged sword when you think about say, America's shift on civil rights or the treatment of detainees. Going back far isn't usually a good thing in foreign policy. For example, before the World War II order or back when chemical weapons were more regularly used. And yet the President admits that he wants the oil. He sees this as a kind of a throwback old school 19th century doctrine when the US did rule as might makes right again, that type of leadership, regardless of the system of government, was widely seen as contributing to the imbalance of powers and the cycle of wars, that after two of them, two world wars, we moved on from that. Trump wants to go back. He admits it. In the days after this operation, there has also been an unseemly set of taunts here. We have to bleep some of them. But this is, I want to be clear, quoting the official White House accounts, what they post on behalf of the Trump White House online, as well as what some officials have said. So using the F word after the extraction, they said as a kind of a taunt to Venezuela and other countries f around and find out. Also, in a kind of a unserious mode of hip hop quoting, I can tell you that the Trump administration quoted a famous line from Biggie Smalls, used in a very different context to say if you don't know, now you know. We've reported tonight on Trump saying the US Is in charge and will run everything. And the bombastic threats to Venezuela have included saying the next leader, if they don't do what the US Wants, could face something worse than Maduro. And given that he was extracted under force with 30 dead, that does sound like a pretty serious threat of violence to another potentially lawful leader of a foreign country. This is belligerent, imperialist kind of colonial messaging. And this is not just oh, let Trump be Trump or communicating on the Internet. This has consequences when this is how the US again with the power, the prestige and the soldiers that are supported by the United States citizenry is seen as speaking to human beings, to persons, to whatever makes you realize they also have their own autonomous lives to lead in these other countries. There is a report now and again it's early days of whatever happened this weekend and we have to be careful giving it too much logic, maybe that just Trump did something. But there are reports and accounts of whether we are returning to the old vision of the imperial United States. And that's why Trump himself, showing that he does know a thing or two about history when he wants to, has cited the discredited Monroe Doctrine. Remember, these are doctrines that were long since discarded by both parties. And to simplify it and make it a bit of a self aggrandizing pun, he calls it the Donroe doctrine. That might be about as clever as telling people to f around and find out. Now the accounts of this note that this was a pre war era when smaller countries were expected to submit to the economic and security priorities of the great powers. And that brings us to what our guests cautioned about tonight, Trump's threats.

[Donald Trump]

I think Cuba is going to be something we'll end up talking about because Cuba is a failing nation right now. Colombia is very sick too, run by a sick man. He's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you. You have to do something with Mexico. Mexico has to get there, act together. We need Greenland from a national security situation.

[Ari Melber]

He's talking about taking or shaking down other countries by force. And as with so much faux tough talk spoken by individuals who are at the upper echelons of power and not actually fighting the war, there are serious questions here about how this talk would actually go down again. Early days, this was a targeted Delta army operation. But if he really is threatening our neighbors to the south like Mexico, or seizing Greenland and seeing what the European Union and the rest of Europe would do about it, or going to war with Cuba, something most presidents have tried tried to avoid, sooner or later, American soldiers have to go do the fighting. They have to cash the check that our president seems intent on writing. And it is not just poetic rhetoric tonight to remind you that in much of his life he did not pay all his own checks. We haven't even hit the year mark of this second term and Trump has completely broken the campaign vows of America first policies where we would spend our treasure and more importantly our soldiers lives, risking them as a last resort in other countries problems rather than something we just do casually. That was the essence of America first and no more forever wars. That's why some on the right, conservative, libertarian, even Maga adjacent, are wondering where does this lead? Imperialism is unpopular for a reason. And I want to quote from New York Times David French today, who has foreign policy experience as he explains the fatal flaw of running the world through this Trump amoral approach to war as an extension of policy is smaller nations don't want to be dominated by the strong and strong nations don't want to see their rivals get stronger so they make alliances. French reminding us that in 1914 Serbia had Russia and Belgium had Britain. In 1939 Poland had France and Britain. That's how regional conflicts turned into global war. In a very careful, measured, knowledgeable way, he's reminding us that this type of thinking, that you have a slightly or even much bigger army and thus no one will challenge you, actually can bring about alliances that lead to larger wars than anyone planned on. If Americans wonder why any South American regime would see closer ties with other foreign powers, perhaps we should ask what their history has been with the US and what the people of South America think about an aggressive revival of the Monroe Doctrine. There is a reason that some things are left in the dustbin of history and pr, branding and puns doesn't necessarily make them a good idea. Right now we have a veteran diplomat on this topic next. I'm joined now by Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne, a queer diplomat who was ambassador to Argentina and Mexico across the Bush and Obama administrations. Welcome. Your view of this so called return to past US Intervention doctrines?

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

Well, I think the idea of working to get a bad leader out and to replace it with a better with him or her with a better government is a wise one. How you get there is very important. And how many countries you can persuade to come along with you, how much pressure you can assert in the situation to bring about a peaceful transition is very important. And I think you have to be really delicate because you're going to be moving into a situation where this will cause precedence for other countries in the region. And we've already seen our president mention a number of other countries in the region where he would like to see changes, some of which let me show.

[Ari Melber]

You because you mentioned that the end may be a positive in some way. But of course that also turns on the long term resonance of the process. Most countries, most peoples don't like this kind of dictation. And if this is the new US Policy, then obviously you're at risk of countries coming in and taking our people and saying they broke a foreign law. And there's 183 jurisdictions, so they may have broken law. Russia has laws that criminalize journalism. There are folks who want to pick up all kinds of controversial rulers. And interestingly, I'd love to get your view and I mentioned you've served in administrations in both parties. How Trump has changed so much. Take a listen to the comparison.

[Donald Trump]

We're uniting forces to end the endless foreign wars. We're not afraid of boots on the ground if we have to. Have we had boots on the ground last night at a very high level. My proudest legacy will be that of a peacemaker and unifier. We have officially renamed the Department of Defense back to the original name, Department of War. I've been working every day to put the world at ease a little bit to get rid of the wars. We take them out and we've taken out four. It's amazing what strength will do.

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

Ambassador Well, I think that's right. I think the first set of comments that you showed is one that is more likely to rally more Americans and more friends of America to the position we take. The second position is one putting us in an area where we could be very much isolated and there could be a lot of opposition at home to what's going on. And I think that's what the president really has to think about. Seriously as diplomats, we're always thinking about building support for what we want to do internationally and trying to build as many and as big an allied group behind us as we go forward. And I think that really important right now.

[Ari Melber]

Do you think the president has articulated a clear plan that's workable or he's just going to improv this?

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

I think there's a lot of room for developing that plan and for bringing other people together around that plan. And I think that would be a wise way to move ahead.

[Ari Melber]

And it will be. And we've got more diplomats on tonight than usual. Is that how diplomats say this plan so far sucks? Is that help us understand what you're saying?

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

We wouldn't quite say this plan sucks. We would say we need more body to it to bring others on board. So it's not just the United States doing this, that we're doing it with others, that we have a large number of countries that agree with us and are going to be willing to work with us to make this possible. And that means working with the people of Venezuela because clearly they didn't like the government and the way it was set up there. They clearly are not comfortable with a number of the people who are in charge right now there. And so I think there'll be a lot of willingness of Venezuelans, a majority of Venezuelans will want a positive change and that's what we have to try and bring for.

[Ari Melber]

Anyone been following the region, there's clear evidence of that opposition to Maduro, his tactics, his crackdowns and the rampant corruption. But unfortunately that's true in many countries. That's true across many Gulf states where the US has not come in and said, well, let's start extracting, indicting or as the now defendant said in court, kidnapping, use different words, the people who are also unpopular, you know, so. So again, that's the wider thing you're reminding everyone there's gotta be some multilateral credibility there. Ambassador Wayne, thank you for joining us today.

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

Thank you very much.

[Ari Melber]

Absolutely. Next we go live to the region. When we come back, We have covered the international reaction and opposition to this maneuver against Venezuela's leader. We can report today the capital Caracas was largely quiet today. But there are big questions about what happens to the country from here. A citizen telling the times the first thing on my mind isn't we're free and I'm so happy is what will happen tomorrow. Maduro one part of a much bigger machine promoting democracy. Meanwhile, which we've seen in other US interventions, where the message, if not the reality for the governed public is there will be a process for you to choose your leader. That's not even a claim by President Trump.

[Donald Trump]

Right now. What we want to do is fix up the oil, fix up the country, bring the country back and then have elections.

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

Is it fair?

[Donald Trump]

We better bring the country back. Otherwise you're just going to have, you're going to have a mess that's so bad. It was really bad. It's going to get a lot worse unless we go in and fix it.

[Ari Melber]

We've heard from diplomats and generals. Now we go to a journalist on the ground. Mississippi now's David Noriega is live in nearby Bogota, Colombia. What are you seeing from your reporting on the ground?

[David Noriega]

Well, Ari, I've been in touch with a number of Venezuelans both inside the country and abroad, and there's a pretty interesting split in how those two camps are reacting to what's happening. As you pointed out, people in Venezuela are very focused on the day to day, right. Even people who were opposed to the Mahuro government, the people who were living under the very difficult conditions that the Maudo government, government created over the course of the last decade are not so necessarily jubilant about what's happened because they don't know what's happening next. Right. There are many reports of long lines at gas stations, at grocery stores as people stock up for the possibility of further military intervention or for the possibility of some kind of dissolution of what appears to be the ruling government at this point. There are a lot of fears that the country could descend into chaos. There are, by the way, also a lot of fears of that here where I am in Colombia, because any kind of chaos or violence in Venezuela will almost certainly spill over the border into this country and elsewhere into the region. You know, I should say we have seen some videos and images from Caracas over the last couple of days of celebrations, marches in favor of the Maduro government and against Trump and US Intervention in the country. It's important to point out that anybody who would want to celebrate the removal of Maduro from that country is not freely able to do so right now. I've heard many reports, credible reports of the presence of what are known as colectivos. These are basically paramilitary motorcycle gangs that do the dirty work of street level enforcement for the government, essentially not allowing by threat of force anybody to come out and criticize the government. It has been this way for some time. It's particularly acutely that way. Now.

[Ari Melber]

Let me just.

[David Noriega]

For the Venezuelans abroad, Ari.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, I Wanted to get a different reaction. Right, we have, but could I get you on the. Yeah, I'm sorry, I know we have the delay. I did want to also get you on what level of shock or reaction this was, this operation, because in the US People are trying to take this in one way in views of Trump. Did this seem like something that could have happened, or was it a real surprise to people in the region?

[David Noriega]

You know, every Venezuelan I've spoken to inside Venezuela, as well as people here in Colombia, were genuinely shocked that this happened, which, frankly, I was sort of expecting something like this to happen. Just to somebody who follows this story closely when, you know, the Trump administration has been telegraphing some kind of action like this for a long time. This sort of what people in the security community call a high value target or HVT operation, where they target one specific person and get them out, was always understood to be one of the clearest scenarios. People understood that abstractly. I think there's a big difference between understanding that abstractly and then all of a sudden living in a city that is under bombardment and seeing US Helicopters in the air and kind of coming to terms with the reality that the person who has ruled your country with an iron fist for 10 years has suddenly just disappeared and is in, you know, U.S. custody somewhere. It's hard to come to grips with that. Venezuela has also been through so many crises, know varying levels of acuteness over the years that people are used to crisis, but in a way that is specifically unpredictable.

[Ari Melber]

Right.

[David Noriega]

That's why I think people in Venezuela are not so comfortable with the idea that the current state of affairs is going to be stable. I think people are prepared for things to get worse very quickly. And I think, frankly, that's a reasonable thing to be prepared for, because what we're seeing with Del Rodriguez, the vice president being the. The. The president being in sort of the chosen successor by the Trump administration. There are other elements in the Maduro regime, the Inter. For example, Dizado Cabello, who controls most of the security apparatus and the paramilitary apparatus, he is very much a rival of Del C Rodriguez. And a lot of people believe, experts, but in people in Venezuela believe that he will not be happy with the current state of affairs. That's why a lot of people expect the current of state of affairs to in some way dissolve. Even when that happens, you have so many different factions of the regime, armed groups, both paramilitary groups aligned with the government, but also independently operating organized criminal groups that are operating in different parts of the country in different ways. Truly, if the current state of affairs, if or when the current state of affairs affairs, you know, collapses, the country will collapse into something very like chaos. Sorry.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. David Noriega, I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot from you this week. Thank you very much. We'll be right back.

[Wayfair Spokesperson (Styles Mackenzie or Olivia from Ollie)]

We interrupt this program to bring you an important Wayfair message. Wayfair's got Style Tips for Every Home. This is Stiles Mackenzie helping you make those rooms sing today. Style Tip when it comes to making a statement, treat bold patterns like neutrals. Go wild like an untamed animal. Print area rug under a rustic farmhouse table. From wayfair.com fierce this has been your Wayfair style tip to keep those interiors superior.

[Ari Melber]

Wayfair Every style, every home.

[Vivgard Hytrulo Spokesperson]

I like things my way. My coffee, my schedule and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo pre filled syringe which contains fgartegamide alpha and hyaluronidase qvfc. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment my way. Visit vivgardmyway.com that's V Y V-A-R-T myway.com and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo brought to you by Argenics.

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[Ari Melber]

The Trump administration action in Venezuela has been controversial for several reasons on the home front. One has been the refusal to consult or get authorization from Congress. That on a delayed framework has just changed as tonight there is a briefing and we are going to be following that on msNow, including in the programs ahead as to what the administration is telling members of Congress both about what it did and what it plans to do in this rapidly unfolding foreign policy situation. We wanted to tell you that. I'll see you back here tomorrow night.

[Wayfair Spokesperson (Styles Mackenzie or Olivia from Ollie)]

Hey, y'.

[Ambassador Earl Anthony Wayne]

All.

[Wayfair Spokesperson (Styles Mackenzie or Olivia from Ollie)]

As a growing family, my husband and I love game night. Especially when it's Wayfair edition.

[Ari Melber]

Let's do it. You gotta name as many Wayfair furniture and decor categories as you can. Ready?

[Crime Junkie Podcast Host (Ashley Flowers or Brit Prawat)]

Go.

[Wayfair Spokesperson (Styles Mackenzie or Olivia from Ollie)]

Sofas, barstools, beds, ottomans, outdoor seating, bookshelves, kitchen tables, garden sheds, mid century modern lamps.

[Donald Trump]

Time.

[General Barry McCaffrey]

Nice.

[Ari Melber]

You got nine out of a lot. Not too bad. Keep practicing by visiting Wayfair.com where you can shop every style for every home. Wayfair.

[Wayfair Spokesperson (Styles Mackenzie or Olivia from Ollie)]

Every style, every home.