Various Interviewees/Reporters (3:17)

Be president for the first time in U.S. history. A former president is facing federal criminal.

Ari Melber (3:23)

Charges but did not take responsibility for the mob of his supporters who breached the Capitol. President Trump taking the oath of office for the second time in the Capitol Rotunda.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (3:32)

More than 1500 pardons or commutations in all for the people who violently stormed the US Capitol. President Trump says nearly every federal agency in the US Government could fall under the scrutiny of Elon Musk.

Jelani Cobb (3:43)

Jimmy Kimmel back on air overnight.

Ari Melber (3:46)

The hard work of improving New Yorkers lives starts now.

Ty Cobb (3:50)

This is the most American thing that you can do.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (3:53)

Protest and speak for what you believe in.

Ari Melber (3:57)

Those are the stakes. Our report now begins with government guardrails. The founders were most concerned that the new democracy could be hijacked by a wannabe king. And they made checks inside the executive staff boundaries by the Constitution, not a politician's whims. Officials must resist orders that break the law. And the epicenter for that is doj, which did patrol Trump in his first term, even appointing special counsel Mueller because Trump's team could not investigate itself. Now the DOJ is failing that independence this term. Some officials have resisted orders to lie in court or abuse power against Trump's enemies, even resigning. But the line hasn't held. Trump's former personal lawyers, Bondi and Blanche, run the DOJ like Trump's political machine, probing rivals in cases so weak, several dropped long before trial. New plots against the Fed chair this month, new probes of Minnesota Democrats added to this chart breaking today. And even one or two questionable cases of illegal selective prosecution. That's bad. But right now it's 14 such cases. The very enemies list Bondi disclaimed under oath. So our Reporting finds the DOJ's internal guardrail is failing the red. You see here Trump doing in one year this term what he never did in his first four years, breaking the DOJ into an unlawful arm of his agenda. And as Russia and countless autocracies show, if the government can get away with indicting anyone for nothing and you don't have a full opposition or a Full democracy. Then there's the use of soldiers and militarized policing on American soil. Trump seizing national guards without their governors, deploying ICE agents in places that voted against him, leading to escalation, to violence, and the ICE agent killing Renee Goode. Now, judges have slowly trimmed some of those deployments. But remember, the founders devoted the Third Amendment to stop soldiers from being forced onto citizens. Federal law bars the military from policing at home, and yet the military's been deployed in six cities and counting. This guardrail is clearly faltering. And Trump's floating even broader emergency powers or the Insurrection Act. Now, the courts are the ultimate authority in our system. They limit politicians power. They resolve what the law says. There's a last word on elections, and I want to show you, if you really measure it. The court's record this past year is mixed. They've tangled with DOJ lawyers. They've clearly ruled against some of Trump's lawless moves. We count about 13 major rulings against him. But the Supreme Court has also allowed, even rewarded Trump ploys to evade the law or run out the clock. And so that's a measure there. Then you have something we all remember. Judges are just on the receiving end. But the doors of the courthouse right now are still open and working. There's been a flood of lawsuits against Trump actions in year one. And if you count up and actually look at this, something he may want to distract you from. About half have won steps to slow or block unlawful acts, with many still pending. Those 358 major suits are seen across the country, part of the many losses Trump has been dealt this first year, in fact. So many losses, it's hard to remember them all. We removed a public safety threat.

Ty Cobb (7:28)

Gang member designated terrorist.

Ari Melber (7:30)

The Supreme Court says the Trump administration must facilitate the return of a Maryland man deported to a Salvadorian prison.

Michael Schmidt (7:37)

The government admitted it mistakenly deported him.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (7:40)

Elon Musk's time in the White House has officially come to an end.

Ari Melber (7:44)

This feels like a reality show character being kind of slaughtered, slowly written off. I mean, look, we can do this the easy way or the hard way.

Jelani Cobb (7:51)

Jimmy Kimmel back on air overnight.

Ari Melber (7:57)

Anyway, as I was saying before I.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (8:00)

Was interrupted, this is not partisan. We're asking for you to stand with us now to release all of the files. It's never been political for us.

Michael Schmidt (8:07)

Two thirds being in the affirmative. The rules are suspended.

Ari Melber (8:11)

The bill is passed. Donald Trump put his surrender and humiliation.

Nicole Wallace (8:17)

In writing, in capital letters, in a.

Ty Cobb (8:19)

Tweet saying, I have just signed the bill to release the Epstein files.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (8:24)

There is no legal, factual or moral justification for President Trump to deploy any military troops or National Guard units. Here in Chicago.

Ari Melber (8:36)

The Supreme Court blocked the Trump administration from deploying the National Guard in Illinois. A lot of those losses from the lawsuits. That guardrail is working now. The founders also predicted that ambition would check ambition, and this isn't one you even need a chart for. That has not been the case in this Republican Congress. Infamously meek Republicans don't even defend their own elected congressional power, let alone checking the president for seizing tariff and foreign policy powers or doing anything about. One of the biggest stories of this past year, his corrupt and dangerous grifting, which breaks the Constitution's ban on foreign gifts. Taking a jet from a foreign country. Hundreds of millions in crypto. It dwarfs all White House corruption scandals. And so as we mark this year in the guardrails, let's be clear, it's one of the greatest violations of US Government guardrails ever. His families. Expanding business interests in the Middle east are facing fresh scrutiny, blurring the lines.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (9:39)

Between business and government.

Ari Melber (9:42)

His plans for luxury skyscrapers, golf courses and a deal involving cryptocurrency. My goodness me.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (9:46)

Five billion numbers.

Ari Melber (9:48)

President Trump preparing to accept a luxury jet from the royal family of Qatar.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (9:52)

The jet is just the latest in a series of actions taken by the president that flout ethics norms.

Ari Melber (9:57)

Is crypto friendly legislation coming from the President of the United States who is in turn cashing in on the crypto phase personally. His family. The single largest corrupt gift in the history of gifts, facts, patrolling a president's self enrichment and violating the Constitution. That's up to Congress. And Republicans have completely failed. They didn't even join a plan to just block your taxpayer dollars from being used to upgrade what is now Donald Trump's personal jet gift. It's one of several examples where the GOP Congress just fails as a guardrail. By contrast, many states are stepping up. They're using their powers to resist those deployments. They take the administration to court in legal ways that not everyone can do. They're using state mechanisms. In fact, we count 23 major suits from the states. This is the Constitution's federalism. This guardrail is working. And states also protect elections. And that brings us of course, to the people's checks on Trump, which is actually an area very interesting that according to the numbers is working better. We turn to that when this special report concludes in 90 seconds.

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Nicole Wallace (11:44)

Ms. Now presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with American journalist Oliver Darcy.

Ty Cobb (11:55)

What makes me optimistic is we have been through very turbulent times in America.

Michael Schmidt (11:58)

Before and things got better.

Ty Cobb (12:00)

And so that's what gives me some hope.

Nicole Wallace (12:02)

The Best people with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to Ms. NOW premium on Apple Podcasts.

Ari Melber (12:19)

Welcome back to our special report on the guardrails tested in this first year of Trump's term. Now we documented government checks and balances, many faltering that you see in red and yellow. Now we turn to the other check provided under the Constitution, the American people's rights, where free speech, protests and democracy are holding up better, including with the work by citizens as opposed to many elites. With one exception. CEOs have an outsized role in economics, media and democracy. They can use their power to hold the line. We see that in wartime patriotism or peacetime government collaboration, and sometimes in backing civil rights and democracy. Some CEOs responded to the original January 6th attack by denouncing it and vowing not to donate to politicians involved. Once Trump came back, though, many reversed themselves, donating to him. This includes some of America's largest company CEOs, and the backtracking contrast is striking.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (13:23)

Mark Zuckerberg just writing in a statement that the shocking events of the last 24 hours clearly demonstrate that President Donald Trump intends to use his remaining time in office to undermine the peaceful and lawful transition of power. Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon said, for years our democracy has built a reservoir of goodwill around the world that brings important benefits for our citizens. Today's attack on the US Capitol does further damage.

Ari Melber (13:49)

Indeed, those big companies, 12 of their CEOs were once standing up to this. We showed you some of that sound. Now they're actively undercutting the red line they claim for democracy. Other CEOs have buckled under government pressure to suspend Jimmy Kimmel or pay Trump for baseless cases that attack speech. This includes CEOs who as part of their portfolio, also oversee news companies. Then there are the lawyers. Trump plotted against the Sixth Amendment right to counsel by retaliating against firms representing his critics. Now Law firms fight in court for a living. Yet early on, many buckled under that plot. About 38% of the targeted firms have been fighting back over time in court, a mixed picture at best. Trump also tried abusing government funding to attack campus freedom. And while many people criticize the universities, which buckled and that got a lot of attention, when you look over the year, our reporting finds most targeted universities, about 60% just there, about 57% are fighting back. Now, some of the parent companies CEOs buckled. I mentioned that. But when you look at the actual editors of newspapers, say the Times, Wall Street Journal, and most working journalists, they're not buckling. Even as Trump sues and tries to bar access, and recently even oversaw the unusual federal search of a reporter's home, journalists are still reporting and speaking and critiquing the government as the Constitution envisioned. In fact, if you just think about it, a lot of what we know about Trump attacking the Bill of Rights comes from the exercise of that very first right, the First Amendment right to report and speak. It bars the government, of course, from any attempt to censor, ban or punish free speech, free press, or the right of the people to peacefully assemble. Which brings us to protest. Americans have been exercising that right to great effect, breaking records for protests in this past year against Trump's autocratic bid for King, like Powers, really sparking a movement that is now, according to polling, 13% larger than MAGA. Protest now or bow down later.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (16:05)

Those are your options.

Ty Cobb (16:06)

Yes.

Ari Melber (16:07)

Everything this regime has been up to is anti American.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (16:12)

More than 100 community members rally around the Vermont man at risk of deportation.

Ari Melber (16:17)

Like I say, this is where I belong. This is home to me.

Ty Cobb (16:22)

Congress makes the laws, not the president.

Ari Melber (16:26)

I believe in the Constitution, the rule.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (16:29)

Of law, and I believe in people treating other people with humanity.

Ari Melber (16:35)

I didn't think that.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (16:39)

That our government.

Ari Melber (16:40)

Would be inhumane like that. It is regular Americans who have been fighting against Trump all over the country. Yes, in Washington, but honestly, all over the country.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (16:51)

And that's what's made the difference.

Ari Melber (16:54)

These protests all over the country are one of the most effective green ratings when you measure the guardrails of. This past year, the conservative Tea Party got a lot of attention and drew about 700,000 attendees concerned about Obama's leadership. Across 2009 past years, Trump protests have drawn about 13 million people. A massive show of public resistance and unity. And that can shape public opinion and impact politicians alike. Now, I told you, DOJ employees falling down on their constitutional oath. We reported that the US Guardrails also require Regular citizens at the beginning and the end of every major prosecution, the grand juries, the charge, and of course the jury of 12 that convicts. And so the DOJ's extreme cases are sometimes dead on arrival because citizens on grand juries keep rejecting cases against protesters, against some Trump rivals. They've stopped. Now, if you're counting 10 attempted cases that we know about from Bondi's DOJ, including the bungled case against New York Attorney General James. Then there are elections. Trump now muses about an illegal third term or plotting against the midterms. Those are threats to do crime. They got to be taken seriously, especially after his convicted 2020 insurrection. But the fact is this year elections were still successfully held around the nation. That is another green rating, democracy's core guardrail, the people decide, is holding under strain. So altogether, it is a rough year for the rule of law. We're seeing red on the government side. Trump, the source of the attacks on the rule of law, his appointees, Congress, all failing the Constitution. That's as courts and states try to hold the line. But the evidence shows the public is leading in this breach. And you can measure it. Regular workers show encourage their bosses, lack journalists reporting amid these attacks, citizens defending a Constitution that the DOJ is clearly trashing from the jury box to the ballot box. And those record breaking protests month after month, even against very real threats of government retribution or violence as soldiers roam the streets. And this is actually what the founders envisioned, strong checks and rights because they expected conniving tyrants can come into power. The rights protected because we will need them, not because everything's just going to be easy or okay. Things are not okay. The rule of law is losing key rounds. The founders planned for that. Madison was fixated on how to systematically thwart future tyrants who might come into office. Or as the late Bashar Jackson said, AKA pop smoke, drop a slip and get a light pack. I don't care if you're losing, still fight back. But people are fighting back. And that's partly because we still have that power, because the guardrails are protecting it most of the time. And the American system makes it a stronger power than any temporary politician who's supposed to serve the public. One year into Trump's new term, we are showing you our original special report tonight, tracking numerically how government guardrails are faltering and in the green, how many American public protests, journalism and elections. The public role consecrated in our Constitution is at times working with, as I mentioned, many regular workers braver than their bosses. We now turn to special guests that we've invited for this discussion on the one year anniversary of this Trump's second term. The dean of Columbia Journalism School and the New Yorker magazine. Staff writer Jelani Cobb. And an investigative reporter with the New York Times, well known to Ms. Viewers, Michael Schmidt. Michael, your thoughts here as we measure the guardrails?

Michael Schmidt (21:13)

You know, look, I didn't think he would be as successful as he was with the Justice Department. I didn't think he would get to a point where he could literally try to invent criminality and cast it on his foes and perceived enemies. And by September you essentially had that. You had him ordering his Attorney General in public on who should be prosecuted and having a Justice Department that even with career prosecutors and political appointees quitting, was still willing to go ahead and try to do that and was successful in receiving two indictments that to me was for his weaponization attempts and his attempts at retribution. The true high watermark. Now the interesting thing about that is that those indictments of Tish James and James Comey did not hold. And as we came into the end of the year, I thought a lot about that and I thought, okay, are we seeing that there are limitations to his ability to materialize and invent criminality and cast it on his enemies? And, and if that's true, that's a huge deal to what he can and cannot do. Now that still hasn't played itself out. They've gone back and tried to indict James again and they're going to try and indict Comey again. But if he can't literally imprison his rivals at will, then I think that that takes a lot of, a lot of oomph out of the potential power that he has to go after people. That doesn't solve all the questions, it doesn't answer all the questions. It doesn't do a lot of things. But on that issue, I think that he may have more limitations on criminality than at least I thought he did.

Jelani Cobb (23:05)

I think that is true to some extent, with one caveat in that, you know, here the process is the punishment that irrespective of the outcome, you still have the Attorney General of New York, the former FBI director being subjected to the presumed humiliation of an indictment, having to go through all the legal proceedings and ultimately, you know, there being a non indictment, you know, returned on this. But these cases fall apart. But for other people, and this is a headache, a difficulty, a trial for them, for other people, without those kinds of resources, this kind of process as punishment can have real consequences. And so if you are a regular individual, we can argue that this is the same sort of thing. This happens when American citizens are detained by ICE and they have to go through all sorts of bureaucratic processes and jump through hoops in order to get a return to a freedom that never should have been abrogated in the first place.

Ari Melber (24:09)

And that's what's so striking, because I think you're right, as people without lawyers and funding have more to fear from that number 14, which is the 14 revenge cases enemies list. But when we broaden out and see all of the green, as I put it, on the American public side, you have CEOs with lawyers and money who were quicker to give in, including the 12 who reverse themselves, than the public, as seen on the bottom of this chart, Jelani, who are doing it despite these threats.

Jelani Cobb (24:39)

Here's the thing that's interesting. When we looked at that entire chart, everything in red, the people who are in red are individually the most powerful people in this conversation. And so CEOs far more well compensated, powerful, influential, et cetera, than the average journalist, than the average protester, than the average person who's on a grand jury. And so there's this inverse relationship between people's willingness to stand up to autocracy and the resources they have that should be at their benefit.

Ari Melber (25:12)

And why is that, do you think so?

Jelani Cobb (25:13)

I think that when we look at this, what happens is like there's part of the struggle which is for people to gain power, and then there's other part of the struggle, which is to hold onto as much power as possible. And there are people who understand that there are things more important than individual power, things that are more important than individual money, and these. The other thing I'll say is that lastly, for the people who are protesting, most of them are not protesting on their own behalf.

Ari Melber (25:41)

Right.

Jelani Cobb (25:42)

They could sit.

Ari Melber (25:44)

So let me put it like this. I know, you know, Michael had one rule. If he was going to come in for something, that's a lot of big segment. He said there's got to be a pop smoke quote. We gave him that. But I'm also thinking of Joplin. Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. And given your writing, I'm curious, any echoes from other people's movements in American history where people who are downtrodden, who already are living a life, where the government or the conditions are putting them at the margin, or the threat of force or unlawful violence is part of their daily existence. So they say, you bet I gotta show up versus these people, these CEOs, who claimed on January 7th this was a red line. And then we learned there's no such thing as a red line when it comes to their bonus.

Jelani Cobb (26:31)

Yeah, it's not any other examples. It's all the other examples. This is what happens in labor movements. And when the great railroad strike of 1877, and you have people who have nothing to do with railroad labor, but who are nonetheless supportive of the people whose labor is being exploited. This is what happens with abolitionists, people who are not enslaved, but who are really willing to risk life and limb to prevent people from being forced into bondage. The example that I've been citing, the thing that I've been comparing this to, has been the reaction to the Fugitive slave Act of 1850, which did precisely the same thing. It authorized a federal bureaucracy to go into the north and find people who had escaped slavery and dragged them back into bondage really quickly. If you look in 1850, there's an example of a man by the name of Anthony Burns, an African American escaped slave who's living in Boston, had been escaped from Virginia. 50,000 people in that time, much more sparsely populated country, 50,000 people came out to prevent him from being dragged back into bondage. That's exactly what's happening here.

Ari Melber (27:39)

So, Michael, as we use this time to broaden out beyond the daily updates and look at this past year, and you do a lot of serious reporting, people hear you on this show. You spend most of your day working sources and writing. Can you measure what matters? I mean, can you measure what it happens? Where in government they go, oh, my gosh, well, Supreme Court, we're not really going to defy the Supreme Court indefinitely over one detainee. Garcia. You know, so they eventually return them. Abrego Garcia. Or public protests sometimes matter. Trump gets mad about the crowd size. What matters that you can document?

Michael Schmidt (28:16)

I'm not sure. I'm really not sure what matters.

Ty Cobb (28:19)

I.

Michael Schmidt (28:19)

Because I would say at times you have seen things from Trump where he seems to have some respect for the Supreme Court and be concerned about what they say. And the administration does take some actions to respond to their rulings. But at other times, it's far less clear. Like, do I think that Donald Trump cares about being accused of weaponizing the Justice Department against his enemies? I don't think so at all. I think he'd be proud of that. Do I think that he cares about 13 million people in the streets? Unless they're in Lafayette Square? I really don't think so, so I'm not sure when you, when I hear, you know, listen to you lay out the landscape of America right now and you say, you know, you can't help but look into the future and think, okay, where is this going? I'm not sure that, that what really could, could drive him in a different direction.

Jelani Cobb (29:16)

Yeah.

Michael Schmidt (29:17)

Because, you know, he, he can endure through types of humiliation that other, you know, politicians can't. And in some ways, it's a bit of a superpower because, you know, if a politician went out there and said, oh, I'm going to go and get Greenland, they would be, probably would be ridiculed and people would make fun of them, that that means nothing to him. And he now has, you know, Republicans lining up behind him about, you know, trying to do that. So this is not. You didn't just lay out a picture and, you know, if you're a viewer, say, okay, well, like, I can see what the end looks like.

Ari Melber (29:53)

No, I don't know.

Ty Cobb (29:54)

Not at all.

Ari Melber (29:55)

Well, and the reason we have more trouble with the end is that the incumbent government fought to overthrow the lawful results of the last time they were kicked out of office. Right. So that changes everything. In the same way that Donald Trump, you could talk about whether he tapped into authentic energy and you can respect our system and all the people who reach their voting conclusion, we go out of our way to do that. But you can't change the fact that he's anti police because he freed all the people who beat up police.

Jelani Cobb (30:24)

Yeah.

Ari Melber (30:25)

And he's anti democracy because of what he did. And his fans did a sedition that he pardoned. That's just.

Michael Schmidt (30:31)

No, but he, and, and this, then this is, I think, really important. And he summoned a mob against his vice president.

Ari Melber (30:38)

Right.

Jelani Cobb (30:39)

Yes.

Michael Schmidt (30:39)

And like, and I'm not just trying to list everything that happened on January 6th, but I think that action in particular is really important to understanding the dynamics of the people around him and, and what we see in them and the situations they find themselves in. So, you know, well, autocracies.

Ari Melber (30:58)

And I'll give you the last word. People can debate where we are on the autocracy spectrum. There are entire nonprofits that rate different countries, and now we're one of them, sadly. But autocracies generally use violence not as a last resort, but as a constant looming threat.

Jelani Cobb (31:14)

Right.

Ari Melber (31:15)

And that is a very big change in how elites. And we've seen what they're afraid of, then act. Government and business elites. You get the final 30 seconds.

Jelani Cobb (31:24)

I'll just add this one thing the habitual flaw of autocracy, autocratic politics, is overreach because a person has been so empowered he's gotten away with weaponizing his supporters against an actual branch of government on January 6, that all of the absurdities, the threat to NATO nations, all these things that are completely bonkers, and he's been able to kind of get away with it. But when you look at how autocrats operate, they tend to trip themselves up, and it's the thing that they don't actually anticipate. But you do the one thing that people simply cannot abide, and it winds up galvanizing people. If you go back to King George III and you're looking and saying tea, like y' all tripping over tea. And so it becomes this entire kind of thing of like, what will be the thing that makes people go this far and no further. But that line is out there.

Ari Melber (32:19)

Yeah. And it makes you wonder what a top White House official or lawyer or anyone committed to still some Constitution would think sitting with Donald Trump as he pursues this agenda. And that's our next guest. We have Ty Cobb, who was in the Trump White House as a lawyer first term, who's now warning about what he says is the threat of the insurrection, act of martial law. And he's been on the inside. So I want to thank Jelani and Michael for being a part of this special. Mr. Cobb joins us with a unique perspective on this report when we return. Exactly one year into Trump's second term, we are measuring and covering these guardrails. If you joined us late this hour, this is the government side, a mixed picture at best, with red and yellow measurably marking areas where guardrails are strained or failing. Among the American public, though, from protest movements, citizen juries, voters going to elections that were still held in November, journalists fighting back, even as CEOs cave, we are seeing a different picture of American guardrails holding. We turn to someone who has a unique background in this. Ty Cobb was a Trump White House attorney in the first term. He takes the law seriously. He has a background in doj, but he's also warned about what he sees as legal excesses in this term. Welcome your thoughts on the guardrails writ large and then we can get into details.

Ty Cobb (33:44)

Yeah, congratulations. I think this is an excellent show, Ari, and I think you're going through it in a very disciplined, unopinionated, factual matter, which should be helpful to your viewers. I think the guardrails, they've never been stressed like they have been now, as you Highlight, I think doj, obviously, and the Republicans in Congress are huge impediments for Americans and supplicants for Trump, which makes it even more dangerous for us all. The courts seem to be responding as ably as they can. Today we had a very firm ruling from a Trump appointed judge in the Eastern District of Virginia calling an end to what he referred to as the charade of Lindsey Halligan masquerading as the U.S. attorney and taking to task not only Halligan, but Bondi and Blanche. So I think the judiciary is doing what it can, but the judiciary is, you know, they don't come into play until after problems have been created. And these problems are being created with such rapidity, it's very hard to keep up, which is why it's so sad that Congress, as the most powerful of the constitutional entities set up by our founders, has, has abdicated its responsibility and been neutered by Republican cowardice. So I do think this is excellent. I think the guardrails are challenging, I suspect one of the key guardrails this week, where I hope there is a vigorous debate is with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the military over what Trump intends to do in Greenland today. He said he wouldn't take force off the table. They asked him how far he was prepared to go. He said, you'll find out. You know, those are not the comments of a rational human being and certainly not presidential at all. Likewise, yesterday you had, you know, the clear, deranged, demented and insane note that he sent to the, to the leaders of Norway, you know, saying that because Norway, which has no control over the Nobel Peace Prize, hadn't given it to him, that he was free to disregard peace and very interested in Greenland. You know, I don't think there's anybody outside of the United States who believes that Trump is sane. Certainly many people in the United States. Intelligence.

Ari Melber (36:27)

Since you've worked for him in the White House, when you make that reference to sane, do you mean problems with how he approaches things that have long been there, or are you referring to some decline?

Ty Cobb (36:37)

No, I think there's been a significant decline. He's always been driven by narcissism, but I think the dementia and the cognitive decline are palpable, as do many experts, including many physicians.

Ari Melber (36:51)

And I'll say, because we've done this type of reporting about McConnell, had health problems, Joe Biden, his health and confidence was called into question. I'll remind viewers we don't have a confirmed public reporting from a White House doctor or others on the President's mental state. I say that and condition. I say that out of fairness. But you've worked with him and you're saying not as a medical view, but as someone who actually knows him up close, that you do observe a decline in the same way that some said that about Biden. George Clooney famously.

Ty Cobb (37:19)

Yeah, no, I think, you know, when Biden was wandering around the stage and, you know, needed, needed trouble exiting and was shaking hands in midair with nobody in particular, I think people, you know, rightfully concerned and certainly following the debate where he struggled so, so mightily, people were understandably concerned. But I think those age related cognitive issues that Biden displayed much different than what we're seeing from Trump with regard to the pettiness of putting up nasty placards about presidents publicly in the White House, whitewashing his own history in the Smithsonian, you know, what he said, what he, what he said yesterday to the leaders of Norway about disregarding peace since he didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize, you know, sending out memes of himself, planting flags in Greenland and Canada today, you know, and basically today saying, you know, NATO was more of an enemy and China and Russia weren't really boogeyman, you know, that's, that's so un American and so crazy that I think people understandably are, are very concerned, with the exception of course, of Mike Johnson, congressional Republicans and, you know, the people on the Senate, on the Senate side who confirmed such notable miscreants as, you know, Cash Patel, RFK and Hegset. So I think it's, I think there is a very, very serious concern around the world and a growing concern within the country about, you know, a man who today said, you know, he might have had bad information on Greenland and caused him to overreact when he imposed tariffs on, on the EU and European countries. Now, this is somebody who, you know, can't just say, oops, he's got the nuclear codes.

Ari Melber (39:18)

Yeah, right. And you're talking about someone that you spent time with in that first term, including behind closed doors, where we all know in law and politics, in life, things can look different. You certainly learn more about people. Mr. Cobb, we've asked you to spend two blocks with us here and I think I'll share my view with the audience. You can see why we value Mr. Cobb's expertise and background, which is why we have time to next, I'm going to ask you about these threats of the Insurrection act, what you know about this president and the lawful way to deal with it, which goes to guardrails that topic next with Mr. Cobb when we return.

Nicole Wallace (40:00)

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with the MSNow newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates and straight to your inventory with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (40:17)

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

Nicole Wallace (40:21)

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Ari Melber (40:32)

We are back with Ty Cobb, the former White House attorney during the first Trump administration who has also sounded alarm about a range of matters. Ty, we've discussed some of this tonight in our report. The deployment of both National Guard military soldiers and now a type of federalized militarized ICE agents doing work that involves and touches on American citizens, recently killed American citizen. And it is not by any means conservatively at the border. It fits into the larger threats we're seeing. And then on the chart we've prepared tonight, we have the military in yellow, counting the six deployments, which far outpaced other times, even when there were more genuine large scale unrest or riots in the streets. And the president repeatedly seems to normalize the idea that he, whose team was once found guilty of actual sedition and insurrection would invoke the Insurrection act, apparently citing either protest escalations that his, that his feds are partly involved in, or less than that. How seriously do you view that threat and what is the peaceful, lawful response in a, in a country where that is invoked potentially illegally?

Ty Cobb (41:49)

That's, that's quite a dilemma and it's one that we face directly and I think we're going to confront it almost immediately. The only peaceful response, of course, is in the courts. You have to go to the court to determine the validity of the invocation of the Insurrection Act. I think they've wanted to do this. I think they are surprised, frankly, that the opportunity has come to them so quickly because the lack of resistance, mostly on the political front, has paved the way for them. I think they anticipated that perhaps they would be here by the 28 elections, which they hope, hope to control. But now they have a chance to provoke the kind of conflict in America that allows them to impose martial law and invoke the Insurrection act upon them. And I think they'll seize that opportunity. Sadly, the Insurrection act, of course, was not intended to facilitate insurrection or take over by an evil president. It was intended to protect Americans. And instead we've, we have gone way down the path of what Trump told the generals that he'd like to see them do which is practice in American streets. And sadly that's going on in Minnesota. I think that the trigger so far for the Insurrection act, the legal trigger is not present. I think the likelihood is that a court under the existing circumstances would condemn and enjoin the invocation of the of the Insurrection Act. But keep in mind that it's only after the fact.

Ari Melber (43:35)

That's only after once it's happening. Yeah, I'm over on on time here but. But you've given us quite a primer and some important legal warnings. Ty Cobb, thank you for joining us and keep it locked on Ms. Now.

Ty Cobb (43:48)

Thank you Ari. Good to be with you. The US military deployed on the streets of America. Whole communities targeted for removal. There was tremendous anxiety as they saw.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (44:03)

Neighbors and friends being taken.

Ty Cobb (44:05)

And when accountability finally came knocking, the.

Ari Melber (44:09)

Burn order to cover it all up.

Various Interviewees/Reporters (44:11)

I never believed that America would be doing this.

Ty Cobb (44:14)

A stain on this country. One that we said we would never repeat.

Nicole Wallace (44:18)

Rachel Maddow presents Burn Order all episodes available now.