New Polls Show More Voters Rejecting Trump Policies

Summary

---

The Beat with Ari Melber (Host: Antonia Hilton in for Ari Melber)

Episode: New Polls Show More Voters Rejecting Trump Policies
Date: May 5, 2026

---

Brief Overview

In this episode, guest host Antonia Hilton explores the mounting political, legal, and social challenges facing President Trump and his administration, as new polling shows widespread voter dissatisfaction with his economic policies, handling of the Iran war, and aggressive tactics on immigration and justice. With top analysts, journalists, and advocates, the episode unpacks how these issues are shaping public opinion ahead of the midterms, why crucial voter blocs—especially young men—are turning away from Trump, and the wider threats to American democracy posed by recent executive and judicial actions.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Declining Poll Numbers and Public Sentiment

• New Poll Data:
  • A Washington Post/ABC poll shows 62% disapproval for Trump—the worst of his second term.
  • Trump's support among Republican-leaning independents is down to 56%, and among independents overall, just 25%.
  • Key negative ratings: handling of cost of living, inflation, economy, taxes, immigration/the border, and Iran.
  • Gas prices have surged to nearly $4.50/gallon, driven by the ongoing war.
  • (00:31, 02:00)
• Party Preparedness:
  • White House lawyers are preparing for potential Democratic majorities in Congress (00:40).
• Republican Response:
  • Trump and allies continue blaming Democrats and the previous Biden administration for economic woes.
  • Quote: “Every small d Democratic muscle that we have is flexing.” — Kristen Clark (00:09)

---

2. Experts Analyze Economic Grievances

Inflation and Tariffs

• Jelani Cobb (Dean, Columbia Journalism School):
  • Argues tariffs and economic mismanagement are major culprits behind persistent inflation and high cost of living, not previous Democratic policies.
  • Criticizes the haphazard and retributive nature of Trump's tariff policy, which led to optional trade wars with allies and adversaries alike.
  • Quote: “We wind up in a trade war that...is completely optional. And none of that is part of the conversation.” (06:29)

K-Shaped Economy & Concentration of Wealth

• E.J. Dionne (Georgetown Professor, NYT Opinion Writer):
  • Notes that wealth is increasingly concentrated at the top, exacerbating inequality.
  • Quote: “20% of all earners accounted for 60% of consumer spending...Everybody else can't afford the housing that's on offer. They can't afford the cars.” (08:30)
  • Young voters and non-wealthy feel alienated and left behind, despite Trump’s “golden age for your golden years” rhetoric aimed at retirees (07:17–09:58).
  • Young people especially frustrated by unattainable housing and a poor job market.

---

3. The Collapse of Trump’s Support Among Young Men

• Key Drop:
  • Among men aged 18–29: Trump’s approval plummets from 49% in 2024 to 28% (12:17).
  • Cultural/personal branding (“macho appeal”) no longer offsets economic frustration.
  • Even influencers like Joe Rogan, a past Trump endorser, are now vocally critical (12:17–13:25).
• Underlying Factors:
  • Young men feel promises of economic stability, independence, and adulthood are unmet.
  • War with Iran and “random stuff he’s engaged in...the new ballroom,” signal a lack of seriousness.
  • Quote: “[Young voters] want a job, want to afford stuff, and [Trump’s] worried about a ballroom or an arch...It betrays a lack of seriousness about what these voters are worried about.” — E.J. Dionne (14:30)

---

4. Legal Retaliation and the Justice Department

Retaliatory Prosecutions

• Aggressive DOJ Tactics:

  • Acting AG Todd Blanche criticized for allegedly weaponizing DOJ and pursuing “retribution” prosecutions.
  • Recent indictment of James Comey centers on a social media post—described as alarmingly thin evidence (18:03–20:11).
  • Even some Republicans skeptical of targeting Comey for a “picture in the sand of a North Carolina beach.”
  • Quote: “This is the weaponization of the DOJ to go after Trump’s enemies...They have never been held accountable.” — Jen Budd (41:06, 43:11)

• Threats to the Fed:

  • DOJ and White House embroiled in efforts to remove or prosecute Fed Chair Jerome Powell.
  • Maya Wiley (former SDNY civil prosecutor) calls the effort “clearly persecution, not legitimate prosecution.” (24:04)

---

5. Voting Rights Under Attack

• Voter Purges and Ballot Access:
  • Trump DOJ moving to direct states to purge voters—unprecedented federal overreach (26:02).
  • Experts warn this could disproportionately disenfranchise Black voters.
  • Supreme Court has gutted the Voting Rights Act, causing states to immediately move to restrict access (30:20).
  • Quote: “This is no laughing matter...we truly are in a dire moment in American democracy.” — Kristen Clark (29:40)
• Judicial Appointments:
  • Trump-appointed judges refusing to confirm the constitutional limit on presidential terms—raising alarms about basic rule-of-law adherence (28:11).
  • Trump’s own comment: “When I get out of office in, let’s say, eight or nine years from now…” (29:05)
• Kristen Clark (NAACP) Appeals for Activism:
  • Urges young Black Americans: “This is a setback, but it’s not surrender...This is a moment to use your voice in a way you have not used before...Make sure you vote up and down that ballot.” (32:26)
  • Acknowledges exhaustion and alienation among young Black voters but emphasizes resilience over surrender (30:49–34:04).

---

6. ICE Detention, Deportations, and Use of Force

• Violence in Detention Centers:
  • Major increase in ICE use-of-force incidents: 780 cases in Trump’s first term year (37% more than previous year), with over 1300 detainees subjected to violence—a 54% increase from Biden’s last year (35:11).
  • Expansion of “Amazon warehouse-style” detention centers faces pushback nationwide.
• Systemic Lack of Accountability:
  • Former Border Patrol officer Jen Budd reveals longstanding culture of violence, poor oversight, and impunity in immigration enforcement since the 1990s.
  • Quote: “This is pretty much immigration law enforcement...the border has come to the rest of America.” (37:47)
  • Victims of abuse in detention have virtually no path to legal recourse or justice (39:50–41:06).
  • Budd: “ICE will say ‘we train officers’...but they know that the press has to report it...They have lied in court over and over again.” (41:50)
• Media and Public Awareness:
  • Budd and Hilton discuss the historical invisibility of these abuses outside border regions, and how recent boldness and media focus is bringing it into public debate (41:50, 43:11).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jelani Cobb (on tariffs):

  • “We wind up in a trade war that...is completely optional. And none of that is part of the conversation...I don’t think voters are necessarily going to be that naive if the poll numbers are to be believed.” (06:29)

• E.J. Dionne (on economy and young voters):

  • “There are only four car brands, cars left that cost 25,000 bucks and under. Things are priced for people with the money to pay for them at the top of the economy.” (09:30)
  • “Young people...aren’t feeling it. And the frustration among the young at not being able to afford a house and entering a really difficult job market is enormous.” (09:40)

• Kristen Clark (on Voting Rights setbacks):

  • “This is a setback, but it’s not surrender...This is a moment to make sure that you vote up and down that ballot. This is a moment to pick up that phone and call your governor, call your senator, and tell them that we Americans deserve more and deserve better.” (32:26)

• Jen Budd (on ICE culture):

  • “They investigate themselves...It is a very tight circle...what we've been doing for decades. This is normal.” (37:47)
  • “You cannot sue the federal government for that. It just does not exist.” (39:50)
  • “They have lied in court over and over again...They don’t care that they’re lying because they’re never held accountable.” (41:50)

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening & Poll Results: 00:31–03:14
• Expert Economic Analysis: 04:25–11:04
• Young Voters Abandoning Trump: 12:17–16:46
• DOJ Retribution & Comey/DOJ Segment: 18:03–26:02
• Voter Suppression & Voting Rights Act: 26:02–34:56
• ICE Violence & Deportation Policies: 35:11–43:11

---

Episode Tone

Throughout, Antonia Hilton and her guests maintain a direct, unvarnished, and at times urgent tone—cutting through partisanship to highlight the real consequences of policy decisions for everyday Americans, especially marginalized groups. The mood alternates between critical scrutiny, somber warning, and calls to action as the stakes for democracy, social equity, and constitutional rights intensify heading into the midterms.

---

Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode vividly details mounting troubles for President Trump as approval for his economic and foreign policies collapses, especially among young voters. Experts trace voters’ frustrations to self-inflicted policy errors—tariffs, inflation, and “K-shaped” economic recovery—that have devastated Trump’s standing outside wealthy retirees. The conversation expands to cover deteriorating democratic norms, aggressive DOJ prosecutions of political opponents, and new assaults on voting rights, capped by disturbing investigative reports into systemic violence and abuse in ICE detention centers. The guests deliver both insight and rallying cries, emphasizing that while setbacks are real, surrender is not the answer—urging listeners and voters to demand accountability, protect their rights, and stay engaged in the fight for American democracy.

Transcript

[MSNBC Announcer]

Listen to your favorite Ms. Now shows anytime as a podcast. Enjoy new episodes of Morning Joe, Deadline, White House and the Rachel Maddow Show.

[Kristen Clark]

Every small d Democratic muscle that we have is flexing.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Plus the Last Word with Lawrence o', Donnell, the Beat with Ari Melber, the Weeknight and more on the Go wherever you get your podcasts for ad free listening to all of your favorite shows. Subscribe to Ms. Now Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Antonia Hilton]

Welcome to THE Beat. I'm Antonia Hilton in this evening for Ari Melber. Today, six months from the midterms, the sputtering economy and an unpopular war, they're dragging down Donald Trump and I suppose arguably the rest of us with him. In the last few hours, the fragile month long ceasefire between Iran and the US has started to teeter. The Pentagon says it shot down Iranian missiles and drones aimed at American military and commercial ships in the Strait of Hormuz, sinking six Iranian military military boats. The US Says it will, quote, guide ships through the strait and that two American ships have passed through. All this comes amid brutal new polling numbers for Trump on the war, the economy, and so much more. Today, a new sign. The Trump White House knows things aren't looking so good. The Washington Post reporting White House lawyers are prepping staff to deal with oversight from a new Democratic Congress as they, quote, brace for the likelihood of significant Democratic victories in the November midterm elections. A Republican operative telling Politico the warning signs are flashing in a new Washington Post ABC poll, more Americans disapprove of the job Trump is doing than at any point in his second term, 62%. It's not just overall job performance where he's 25 points underwater. It's also cost of living, inflation, economy, taxes, immigration, the border, Iran. Trump has negative ratings on all of them. Gas prices are now approaching $4.50 per gallon, up almost $1.50 since the start of this war. Trump's Republican support also softening his ratings among Republican leaning independents have now reached a new low of 56%. As the Post notes, among independents overall, he's at a staggering 25%. Trump trying to rally his base by going to a retirement community in Florida. You can see the banner right there behind him, golden age for your golden years. A sort of strange slogan to spotlight right now, inadvertently revealing a giant blind spot as young voters and young parents couldn't be more clear. Right now they're anxious about the job market. They're worried they don't have real wealth in the stock market. They're wondering if they're ever going to own their own homes. All while the president touts a golden age of tax cuts designed to benefit the wealthy few. But 15 months into his second term, Trump is still trying to place the blame for all these problems on the Democrats.

[E.J. Dionne]

You know, it's amazing. I come into office and I say, wow, look at how high these prices are. And the Democrats start screaming, affordability, affordability. They're the ones that caused the problem. I'll tell you one thing, they got one good line of. That's one thing I'll say about.

[Antonia Hilton]

But if these polls are to be believed, then it's the voters who are calling BS for months, they've been saying it's Trump's economy and they don't like it. Instead of addressing tariffs, taxes, or rising prices, top Trump officials are echoing Trump and blaming Biden.

[Jelani Cobb]

This is just more of the mess

[E.J. Dionne]

we inherited from the Biden administration, the

[Jen Budd]

last administration moving cattle, doing everything they could to basically eviscerate the cattle industry.

[Antonia Hilton]

And to be really clear, yeah, jet fuel prices have gone up. This story was not written because of the Iran war. This story was written years ago because of what Elizabeth Warren, Joe Biden people to judge.

[Jen Budd]

We continue to give relief in other

[Kristen Clark]

areas, cutting $6 trillion in regulation that the Biden administration put on.

[Antonia Hilton]

And joining me now is Jelani Cobb, dean of the Columbia Journalism School and writer for the New Yorker magazine. And E.J. dion, Georgetown professor and New York Times opinion writer and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. It is great to have both of you guys with me tonight. Jelani, I'll start with you, though. I want to just begin with your basic reaction. I saw you out of the corner of my eye while I was ticking through some of those numbers. What strikes you the most here?

[Jelani Cobb]

So, I mean, one of the things that strikes me about this is that, you know, the word that hasn't popped up in this has been tariffs. That from the outset, when we started with the idea that the Biden economy, that Biden, his candidacy was weighted down before he stepped down, was weighted down by inflation. Kamala Harris inherited some of that when she became the nominee. And we move into a new administration, which is theoretically supposed to tackle that question, instead, they pivot to tariffs, which further the difficulty people are having with being able to afford basic food necessities and the like. And then we tack on a war on top of that, an optional war that sends gas prices skyrocketing and the ripple effect that that has on all sorts of things. Transportation, groceries that are being transported across the country, et cetera. We understand how these things are integrally connected in the economy. That is how we up here. It has nothing to do with being able to say this was the previous 15 months ago, this was the previous administration. They own this. And this is what you're seeing is basic avoidance there.

[Antonia Hilton]

Yeah. And they have tried and tried again to pin everything on Biden. But the one thing I would add to what you just spelled out there is it's not even like he introduced tariffs and it made things that were bad already worse. Things were actually starting to turn around. There was really like the beginning of an uplift, numbers improving, that he could have frankly capitalized, taken all the credit, and then he sort of torpedoed his own free gift from the Biden administration.

[Jelani Cobb]

Yeah. But also, I think the way in which the tariffs were imposed was wildly haphazard, really, based upon retribution for who he liked or didn't like at the moment. Imposed tariffs on allies, imposed tariffs on places that we have poor relationships with. And there was no kind of prevailing logic. And also there's the counter tariffs that come as a result of this. And so we wind up in a trade war that it is, again, completely optional. And none of that is part of the conversation. Nobody, Sean Duffy, is not talking about that. When you talk about spirit, none of these things are coming up. That's not the conversation we're having. And it's interesting, but I don't think that voters are necessarily going to be that naive if the poll numbers are to be believed.

[Antonia Hilton]

E.J. do you think that the voters can possibly buy any of this and buy that Democrats or Biden specifically is still to blame here? And I also want your thoughts just on that banner and what that may represent about the president's message right now, specifically going to retirees in Florida. Golden age for your golden years. At a time when so many people of every age range, they've been screaming about how this economy is not working for them.

[E.J. Dionne]

I was really struck when you showed the clips of the Trump folks blaming Biden and all kinds of other Democrats. I'm surprised they didn't go back to John F. Kennedy, Harry Truman or Franklin Roosevelt. It was all back there and none of that is working. There was a very interesting poll that came out today from the Generation Lab and it asked people, whom do you blame for the economy? 41% said Trump, another 9% said the Republican Congress, 3% said Joe Biden, and 3% said Democrats in Congress. Interestingly, a big whopping number, 31% blame corporate greed. So what you have is a combination of blaming Trump, Republicans in corporate greed and nobody blaming the Democrats. This is Trump's economy now. And I think you really underscored something when you showed those golden years. I think one of the problems in this economy is you can have fabulous stock market numbers, which are particularly good for retirees who have money saved. But what you've got in the concentration of purchasing power is a lot of people at the top being able to spend a lot of money. Earlier this year, Moody's analytics had a really powerful number. That 20%, the top 20% of all earners accounted for 60% of consumer spending. That means everybody else has a much, much smaller share to spend. And they can't afford the housing that's on offer. They can't afford the cars that are on offer. My friend Harold Meyerson had a great piece today. There are only four car brands, cars left that cost 25,000 bucks and under. Things are priced for people with the money to pay for them at the top of the economy. Yeah, there were quite a few people up there, but a lot of people at the bottom and especially young people aren't feeling it. And the frustration among the young at not being able to afford a house and entering a really difficult job market is enormous. And Trump has lost all the ground he gained among young people in the last election.

[Jelani Cobb]

Can I add something to that, please? E.J. the interesting point here as well is that those people are not spending money on the same things. When you have all of that spending concentrated at the upper tier of the economy. They're buying luxury goods, they're buying second homes, they're buying all those things. But when you talk about the things that really drive the economy, when you talk about whether people are buying necessities and buying food, stock and those kinds of things, that's where you wind up getting compression. People are not buying, people are not shopping in those areas that are vital for the wellbeing of the mom and pop shop, the small businesses and all those things around that are really the lifeblood of many communities.

[Antonia Hilton]

Jelani and E.J.

[Maya Wiley]

you're both.

[Antonia Hilton]

Oh, go ahead, go ahead, E.J.

[E.J. Dionne]

oh, no, I think that's an extremely important point. And it really goes especially to communities that aren't that well off, that do count on that core consumer spending that you're talking about. Those left out places helped build Donald Trump's majority. And now those left out places still feel very left out.

[Antonia Hilton]

Absolutely. It's shocking at a time when the White House clearly is aware of the alienation and the anger over all of this because they are preparing to go to war basically with Democrats in the House in the coming months. And they understand the affordability message that is out there and yet they just continue to double down on things that are creating or worsening this K shaped economy, which is what the two of you are really describing so vividly here. Jelani and E.J. you're sticking with me, though. We're going to continue this conversation and specifically dig into more on young voters when we're back in just 90 seconds.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNow Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite show.

[Antonia Hilton]

Voters weighed in. Donald Trump's dismissal of their concerns has been weighing on his political standing.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Updates on our latest podcasts and election coverage, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNow all in one place. Sign up for MSNow Daily at Ms. Now

[Antonia Hilton]

a new warning sign for Donald Trump as he loses his grip over a constituency that helped propel his political comeback. Young men. The Economist notes Trump's macho magic appears to be fading, especially among young men. In 2024, 49% of men aged 18 to 29 voted for him. Now only 28% approve of him. That's according to the new polling. Influential podcaster Joe Rogan, who endorsed Trump in 2024, is now routinely criticizing him. So what do you, what do you

[Jen Budd]

think of what's going on in Iran?

[E.J. Dionne]

It's terrifying. Yeah, all of it's terrifying. I'm scared of this tariff stuff. Oh. FBI concluded Jeffrey Epstein wasn't running a sex trafficking ring as the gaslightiest gaslight I've ever heard in my Life. It's all 8647 is get rid of 47.

[Jen Budd]

Right. Free speech.

[E.J. Dionne]

But it's just like arresting a guy for that is nuts.

[Antonia Hilton]

And we're back with Jelani Cobb and E.J. dion. E.J. i'll start with you. Is the Economist right there? Is Trump's macho appeal falling apart with young guys

[E.J. Dionne]

is and you're seeing that across the polls. And I think in the last election there was a sort of analytical trope towards saying this whole thing among young men is explained by culture and macho stuff. They were dissatisfied with the economy back then and I think we underestimate how much of a role just this economic discontent played in in people's decision. Those folks decision to take another flyer on Donald Trump. And the fact not only that he hasn't dealt with those problems, but that he is dealing with other topics that have nothing to do with the core concerns of those younger men is really pushing them away. Two good examples, the war itself, which is deeply unpopular among young people. And he has made no case for it. And Joe Rogan's commentary, I think, is typical of what a lot of feeling among former Trump voters are. But the other stuff is this random stuff he's engaged in, like the new ballroom. I personally think the ballroom has been more harmful to Trump than you might think because it just raises the question in people's minds, I want a job, I want to be able to afford stuff. And he's worried about a ballroom or an arch, a new arch. And I think it betrays a lack of seriousness about the things that these very voters are worried about.

[Antonia Hilton]

Jelani, what do you think this does to our social fabric, especially for young men for whom so many politicians seem to care right now about their interior lives, their alienation, their loneliness? But then they do all of these things that make their lives incredibly difficult, their dreams impossible.

[Jelani Cobb]

Well, I mean, the interesting thing about this is that on the right, they were the people saying, get out, get a job, get married, be responsible. The kind of so called traditional benchmarks of what masculine achievement or masculine maturity was supposed to be. But nothing is facilitating, actually, not even facilitating it is actively making that more difficult to achieve. And so what I think you do is that you risk breeding a kind of social discontent that only gets worse over time. If we're talking about people who are young, in their teens, their early mid-20s, what happens at the end of this term when these people are further along, maybe in their late 20s and maybe close to 30, they still haven't been able to purchase a home. They still haven't been able to reach the level of development that their parents had reached by that point in life. And then you wind up finding that that sours into what could be a fairly volatile social force. I think societies know that you really don't want to do that. You want to actually do the opposite to create the kind of pathways. And I'll add one other thing in here. While these things we're talking about have been kind of been in blue collar kinds of concerns, it also is going to be more difficult to afford a college education. You know, we've seen things with the cutbacks and the caps and all the things that are happening. College is less attainable as well. So we're closing off avenues to young people and not really offering anything else in its place.

[Antonia Hilton]

Jelani Cobb, E.J. dion, so good to have you both. Thank you. Later, explosive report on alleged widespread use of force at I detention centers all across the country. Also, Trump judicial nominees failing to answer basic constitutional questions. And it's all on camera.

[E.J. Dionne]

Mr. Mark, is President Trump eligible to run for president again in 2028?

[Jen Budd]

Is he eligible to run for a

[E.J. Dionne]

third term under our Constitution?

[Antonia Hilton]

Plus Trump, Trump's Attorney General Todd Blanche. He's grilled over the Comey indictment and it didn't go well.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNow Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Antonia Hilton]

Voters weighed in Donald Trump's dismissal of their concerns has been weighing on his political standing.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Updates on our latest podcasts and election coverage, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of Ms. Now all in one place. Sign up for Ms. NOW Daily at Ms. Now.

[Antonia Hilton]

We turn now to Trump's Justice Department charging ahead with retribution prosecutions that keep blurring the line between law enforcement and the president's personal payback. The Atlantic calling it a hyper aggressive new era for the department under acting Attorney General General Todd Blanche saying they are, quote, cutting legal corners in service of getting President Trump. The headlines under any other President DOJ's recent activity would represent an astonishing abuse of power. Since Pam Bondi's firing, Blanche has unleashed a wave of investigations targeting Trump's enemies as he guns for the top job, most recently securing another indictment against former FBI Director James Comey after the first one failed. The case hinging on a social media post of seashells depicting 8647, which they say is a direct threat against President Trump. But now Blanche, without offering any evidence, is suggesting there's more there that the indictment goes beyond the seashell photo. When pressed on this during Meet the Press, Blanche appears to admit Trump's DOJ is not applying the law fairly. On Amazon.com, we look this up. There are dozens of products with the same terminology. We're showing it right here. 8647 being sold and purchased right now. Should individuals selling or buying 8647 merchandise be concerned that they're going to be Prosecuted by the DoD?

[E.J. Dionne]

This isn't about a single incident, okay? This isn't. I mean, of course not. That's posted constantly. That phrase is used constantly.

[Antonia Hilton]

So that phrase is used Constantly. Yet only Comey gets indicted for it. This indictment is getting strong pushback, of course, from Democrats and even some skepticism from Republicans.

[E.J. Dionne]

James Comey is a political opponent of the President's. Todd Blanche wants to keep this job. If this whole case is based on a picture in the sand of a North Carolina beach, it again, makes no sense to me. I can't find any evidence where 86 issues as a call for violence.

[Jen Budd]

I think it is the weaponization of

[Antonia Hilton]

the Department of Justice to go after Trump's enemies.

[Jen Budd]

I'm not a fan of his.

[E.J. Dionne]

I think you should go to prison, quite honestly.

[Jen Budd]

But for this. I don't know this.

[Antonia Hilton]

As the U.S. attorney in D.C. jeanine Pirro, signaled that prosecutors could revive the investigation into Fed Chair Jerome Powell, even after they just dropped the case last month. Joining me now is Maya Wiley, former SDNY civil prosecutor and CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. Maya, it's great to see you.

[Maya Wiley]

Good to see you, Antonia.

[Antonia Hilton]

So you heard it there. Blanche is insisting that there is more here than just seashells on the beach. Basically, they didn't spend 11 months investigating just a picture on Instagram. What do you imagine is there that we don't yet know about? You're not buying it?

[Maya Wiley]

I'm not buying it. I'm not buying it for a couple of reasons. One is that Donald Trump promised retribution. James Comey was always very high on his list. You already had the first attempt to indict Comey on something totally unrelated to this. And we just heard, at least in one news story last week, that from an unnamed source at the White House, that Todd Blanche was doing a great job. If he just kept doing what he's doing, going after, essentially my words, not the articles, but Trump's enemies, then he's good for the job that he's auditioning for. And that was related to the Southern Poverty Law Center's indictment, which looks pretty flimsy, too. But I think the point here is if you want to survive a motion to dismiss this kind of indictment, you do have to put enough evidence in it to survive. I mean.

[Antonia Hilton]

Well, I mean, does it help. Does it help you, Maya, to avoid having your. Your case dismissed? If you go on national television and you basically admit that when other people say 86, 47, you are not taking it that seriously. I'm no lawyer. I'm just wondering, unless you're going to

[Maya Wiley]

amend the supersede, as we call it, but change this indictment by adding more information. No, you're actually admitting that you don't have enough. Because look, what Todd Blanche is right about is you have to take all of the circumstances into account. But where the Department of Justice has prosecuted people for threatening Donald Trump or President Biden when he was former President Joe Biden was when people said things like, like, I'm going to kill Donald Trump or I'm going to burn Mar A Lago down when you're in it, things that are very hard to interpret as anything else. And that's because we do have this Constitution. We still have it, and it still has an amendment in it called the First Amendment, and it still protects free speech. And political speech is among the highest you protect. In other words, 86ing a president is commonly understood as we don't like him, don't vote for him. But. So unless you have a lot of other evidence that points to the fact that it should be understood as a threat of violence, no, you got a flimsy case.

[Antonia Hilton]

I have to ask you too, Maya, about what's happening right now with Fed Chair Jerome Powell. The White House posted this. It appears to be AI generated image of Jerome Powell being, you see it right there, tossed into a dumpster. And then Jeanine Pirro, she was on CNN making clear he is not actually off the hook after it appeared the whole reason that she announced that they were going to stop going after Powell was basically because they wanted Senator Thom Tillis to move through their preferred replacement, Kevin Warsh. So do you think just remember something

[Maya Wiley]

else about that Jerome Powell indictment. You had a federal judge who thought it was so blatantly obviously political that he said, I am not going to let your grand jury subpoenas to the Fed go forward.

[Antonia Hilton]

Right.

[Maya Wiley]

I mean, and he said it in a 27 page scathing opinion that it's clearly persecution, not legitimate prosecution.

[Antonia Hilton]

If you're Jerome Powell, are you taking that post that the White House, that the president shared in whatever may come next from U.S. attorney Pirro?

[Maya Wiley]

Well, certainly I can't speak for him, but I would say I hope that Jerome Powell does what he did the first time, which is say, I'm not going anywhere. You don't have the power to do this. And look, remember what this is about, refurbishing the offices of the Fed. You've got the White House shows up in images we post on this and other networks all the time. And Donald Trump destroyed a whole wing of it. But we have an indictment about refurbishing offices. Does this really sound like the kind of money we should be spending?

[Antonia Hilton]

Can I just quickly say then do you think that Senator Tillis was duped here? You know, he genuinely thought, okay, they're going to back off and so I'll be able to push this Kevin Warsh through to be the next Fed chair. Or do you think he knew all along that they would eventually come back again?

[Maya Wiley]

Well, I actually think what Senator Tillis did was his job, which was to be honest about. I'm not doing this. We need to have an actual process and it needs to be an open one. But whatever happened here, I think we need anyone who's elected to office to say, let's get back to the people's business and stop persecuting people.

[Antonia Hilton]

That may be the message, the headline. I'm not so sure they're hearing you right now, Maya, but good luck with it.

[Maya Wiley]

To deliver that message as the people,

[Antonia Hilton]

I agree with you. Maya Wiley, thank you as always. So good to see you. Ahead, we're going inside ICE detention centers amid fresh allegations that agents are engaging in widespread use of force. But first, Trump and his allies, allies working to undermine US Elections. The details after a quick break. With just six months until November's midterm elections, Donald Trump and Republicans are leading an unprecedented interference campaign working to purge voters from the rolls across multiple states, including Ohio and Texas. The nonprofit Brennan center for justice describes it like this, quote, the DOJ plans to conduct its own analysis of states voter files and then instruct the states to remove specific voters, which the federal government has never done before. It's just one part of a multi pronged approach to limit ballot access. As experts warn the move could disenfranchise many black voters. Former Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights Kristen Clark issued a warning to Congress about this.

[Kristen Clark]

The all out effort by this administration and its cohorts in some state governments to seize control of how elections are run is the latest chapter in a very long story of power being used to silence the black community.

[Antonia Hilton]

And we'll talk to Kristen Clark in just a moment. Her warning resonating more deeply now after last week's Supreme Court decision gutting the Voting Rights Act. A cornerstone, a cornerstone, of course, the civil rights movement. All of it likely to ignite new clashes in the courts. An arena fraught with Trump appointed judges as he moves to reshape the American judiciary. Just last week, three Trump nominees refused to say whether Trump could run for a third term, which anyone who's taken a basic civics class class knows is unconstitutional.

[E.J. Dionne]

Mr. Mark, is President Trump eligible to run for President again in 2028? Senator with a without Considering all the facts and looking at everything, depending on what the situation is, this, to me, strikes as more of a hypothetical, of something that could be.

[Jen Budd]

It's not a hypothetical.

[E.J. Dionne]

Is he eligible to run for a third term? Term under our Constitution? I would have to review the. All I need to tell you the

[Jen Budd]

language of the constitutional amendment that makes

[E.J. Dionne]

it clear that, no, he is not eligible to run for a third term.

[Jen Budd]

Anybody else brave enough to say that the Constitution of the United States prevents President Trump from seeking a third term? Anybody willing to apply the Constitution by its plain language in the 22nd Amendment?

[E.J. Dionne]

No, but

[Antonia Hilton]

Trump himself making a comment to this effect earlier today.

[E.J. Dionne]

When I get out of office in, let's say, eight or nine years from now,

[Antonia Hilton]

he got laughs in the room, but clearly it's no joke. Joining me now is Kristen Clark, general counsel for the NAACP and former Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights at the Department of Justice. Kristen, it is great to see you. I guess I'll begin with your reaction to the laughs in that room, the president's comments, but also, most importantly, your reaction to those nominees refusing to answer a very straightforward constitutional question.

[Kristen Clark]

Yeah, this is no laughing matter. Judges unwilling to make clear their commitment to fairly and fully enforce the Constitution. A Supreme Court that has gutted the Voting Rights act of 1965, our most important federal civil rights law. A Justice Department that is bent at every turn at making it harder for Americans to vote. You know, we truly are in a dire moment in American democracy. Every American should be alarmed at the direction that we are moving as a nation.

[Antonia Hilton]

You've long warned about this dire moment, and it was maybe not surprising, but a bit shocking to see just how. How quickly many Southern states moved to cancel primaries, to rework their maps right after this ruling. Florida, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, among the states I'm referencing there. Were you surprised by this? And what does it tell you about what's on the horizon now?

[Kristen Clark]

You know, there are many of us who have fought to protect the Voting Rights act throughout the years, and we've done so with this, with success. But the Roberts Court has made clear their intention of dismantling not just the Voting Rights act, but really our entire civil rights architecture as a nation. It is deeply troubling, and I think about and reflect on the sacrifices of brave Americans who fought for those laws because they believed that we could be a better democracy, a fair and open democracy where everyone has a voice at the ballot box. It is sad to see us at this dark place where we are turning the clock back and quickly staring at Jim Crow's door.

[Antonia Hilton]

Can I ask you, and maybe this may come off as a bit of a personal question or selfish question, if you have a message to young black people alarmed by what you just described there, of the sense that the country is returning to Jim Crow. So many young black people feeling exhausted, alienated by this political moment, and also, frankly, frustration that in the weeks and months leading up to this decision, which people knew was coming, that there weren't more people, more allies, more, you know, elected officials screaming from the rooftops about what it would mean for the Voting Rights act to be dismantled in this way.

[Kristen Clark]

You know, I would say that this is a setback, but it's not surrender. And this is a moment to use your voice in a way that you've not used it before. This is a moment to make sure that you vote up and down that ballot. This is a moment to pick up that phone and call your governor, call your senator, and tell them that we Americans deserve more and deserve better. You know, right now at the naacp, we are going to continue to do what we've done for over 100 years, and that's fight for a better America, a more just America. We, unlike the judicial nominees in those seats, believe in the Constitution and the rule of law. And so this is a moment for, really, people to rally and come together and push for the better democracy that we all deserve in this country.

[Antonia Hilton]

I want to get your sense of what that fight is going to require of people. You spelled out some of it there, but just how long the road ahead is. I asked because just to give one other snapshot, NPR reporting that at least in 23 states, including five presidential swing states, candidates who have denied election results are right now running for offices that will have a direct role in certifying future elections. It feels like there, it's not just one battle that people need to fight on. There are so many different fronts in this war on people's voting rights, on election integrity. And it's overwhelming, frankly, when you try to process, when you try to keep track of it all.

[Kristen Clark]

You know, I think these fringe voices have somehow made it into the mainstream. The election denialists, the people who, who don't believe in our Constitution, and the people who don't believe in civil rights. But I think at the end of the day that there are a lot more people, there are a lot more of people who believe in a just and fair system, who believe in a democracy where we all have voice, who believe in fairness. And at the end of the day, I think our Voices will prevail, but it's gonna take a lot of hard work and perseverance. Again, it's a setback. But I do think that if people rise, use their voices, leverage the power of their collective votes, that we can get on the other side of this really treacherous moment in democracy.

[Antonia Hilton]

Kristen Clark, thank you for always using your voice.

[Kristen Clark]

Thank you for having me.

[Antonia Hilton]

Up next, a former Border Patrol officer is speaking out on Trump's deportation agenda. Stay with us.

[E.J. Dionne]

Foreign

[Antonia Hilton]

we're back tonight with a new investigation that pulls back the curtain on what's actually happening inside ICE detention centers and how detainees are being treated behind closed doors. The Washington Post reviewed internal ICE records to find that in the Trump era, officers are using increasing force on the people held in their facilities. The records show ICE agents used physical force or chemical agents agents at least 780 times on people they detained, all during the first year of Trump's second term. That is a 37% increase in violence from the year before. And it also means more people are being subjected to all that violence, over 1300 people, according to these records. That's a 54% increase from Biden's last year in office. This is a rare look inside these detention facilities at a time when Trump administration officials and the many private for profit corporations that they do business with, they all want to rapidly expand these facilities across the country, creating almost Amazon warehouse style hubs for their aggressive deportation campaign. That proposal is facing fierce pushback even in areas that supported Trump. As I reported in the most recent installment of our Cities Under Siege series. What would you say to someone who said you voted for this to happen?

[Jelani Cobb]

I think that's a very narrow view of what is happening and what has happened. I do support our legal system. I do think that there needs to be processes in place to handle those who've broken the law. But that's not incompatible with not wanting a penitentiary in your backyard.

[Antonia Hilton]

And joining me now is Jen Budd, a former Border Patrol officer who has since become an immigrant rights advocate. She is the author of ICE what Everyone Needs to Know. Jen, it's great to have you. Look, reporters, we are so often told by federal officials that the most violent tactics are being reserved only for the most violent criminals. Criminals, you think? Cartels, smugglers. You're a former Border Patrol officer who's seen the training up close. So how do you think the violence ended up inside detention centers?

[Jen Budd]

Well, thank you for having me, Antonia. Honestly, this is pretty much immigration law enforcement. It's what I was taught back in the 90s. And it is what they continue to teach today in the academies, what they will say, the official training. Yes, they teach de escalation. They teach you to use the minimal amount of force officially, because in the academy it is highly supervised and they do everything by the letter of the law. But it is, once you get out into the field is where you learn how immigration law enforcement really works. The ramming of the cars, the pepper spraying, the busting out the windows is everything that we have been doing down here on the border since at least I was an agent in the mid-90s. And so I see nothing different other than that the border has come to the rest of America. And so what we're seeing inside the ICE detention facilities is the same thing that we have always seen. Where they investigate themselves, they don't give full investigations. There is no oversight into it. The oversight that does exist from the federal government through various Office of Professional Responsibility groups in the different agencies, which are just like eternal affairs. The investigators are all ex agents. And it is a very tight circle with which all these investigations happen. So what you're seeing now is what we've been doing for decades. This is, this is normal. You're just seeing it because it's now in your streets and the media is covering it more. And this administration is being very bold and blatant about.

[E.J. Dionne]

About it.

[Antonia Hilton]

So does that mean if you are someone who experiences violence in one of these detention centers or one of these future upcoming massive mega warehouses that they're planning to construct to detain people, do you think that someone in that position has any chance at accountability or justice of holding one of these officers accountable?

[Kristen Clark]

No.

[Jen Budd]

There's the only way that this typically leads to accountability. Whether we're talking about the United States Border Patrol, Customs and Border Protection, commonly known as CBP or ice, even though they're different agencies, it's. It's the same thing all the way around. The, the fact if you get assaulted by one of these agents, there's not really an avenue under the Federal Tort Claims act for people to actually file and say, you've assaulted me, the government. You cannot sue the federal government for that. It just does not exist. And so what has looked as accountability is we either demand that agent resign. That's considered accountability, or we have them resign before they get their pension. That's considered accountability. In sexual assault cases, even ones that, that happen to DHS and ICE employees and all these other agency employees, and, and then accountability for the federal government. Until Donald Trump stopped the settlement process under the Federal Tort Claims Act. That was accountability where the government just gave up and said, you know, here's a couple hundred thousand dollars, go away. That's the only accountability you get in the federal government.

[Antonia Hilton]

I want to read you some of what DHS replied to these reporters here. They said ICE law enforcement officers are trained to use the minimum amount of force necessary to resolve dangerous situations. They also said officers are highly trained in de escalation tactics and regularly receive ongoing use of force training. They didn't answer many of the reports reporters specific questions about the incidents that they had uncovered here. Do, do you buy that? When you look at what's happening with this mass deportation agenda as the administration lowered certain standards for people to even become federal agents and work in immigration in the first place, do you think that training is still up to par?

[Jen Budd]

No, the training is not up to par. Essentially what you see is the things that we've been allowed to get away with down here on border and I say that ashamedly as an ex agent is just now coming to your cities. And so unfortunately a lot of Americans didn't care until it came to their cities. And honestly, a lot of them, truthfully I've learned over the years, just don't see it. They just didn't know about it because it's reported down here but not elsewhere. And so ICE will say these things because they know that the press has to report and say this is what DHS said. But as we've seen time and time again, dhs, including all the way up to the Secretary of Homeland Security, Christy Nome, will readily get up and just lie to the press. They have lied in court over and over and over again. And so they'll just say whatever they want to say so that you and the media has to repeat it. And then that's just their talking point. They don't care that they're lying because they're never held accountable. Accountable. They have never been held accountable. And what I see in like when you look at the Alex Preddy shootings and you look at all this violence where they just refuse to cooperate and they stall and stall, they're hoping that you and the media eventually forget about it and everybody just moves on. That's us. That's what happens down here. Everybody moves on.

[Antonia Hilton]

Well, Jen, Bud, thank you so much. I'll tell you this. They, they may be counting on it, but I know that I, Jacob Stoveroff, so many of my other colleagues, David Noriega, we have called them out on those very lies. That you are mentioning. Good to see you. Thank you so much. And we're going to be right back after this quick break.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Snoring, Gasping during sleep? Feeling fatigued? Ask your doctor about Zepbound Tirzepatide, the first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15mg injection. Zepbound contains Tirzepatide and should not be used with other Tirzepatide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zetbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia Syndrome Type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor, call 1-800-545-979 or visit zepbound lily com.