← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
New Questions About Trump WH's Epstein Meetings
00:39:58
MSNBC’s Ari Melber reports on the Epstein uproar engulfing President Trump, with new details emerging today undercutting multiple White House narratives and fueling more questions.
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- [00:01]
Stephen A. Smith
If you could hear love, what would it sound like? Son, can we talk about your drinking? Yeah, Dad, I think we should.
- [00:19]
Ari Melber
Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking. Maybe that's what love sounds like.
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Stephen A. Smith
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Ari Melber
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Ari Melber
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- [00:57]
Justin Wolfers
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- [00:59]
Ari Melber
Welcome to the beat, everyone. I'm Ari Melber. We begin with the Epstein uproar. Continuing new details today that undercut White House claims as well as fueling more questions. NBC News reporting top officials did huddle last night specifically to discuss the Epstein scandal and what they will do about ongoing questions and transparency, something that VP Vance basically all but denied yesterday. Maybe Trump officials are rattled. Maybe they don't have one story to tell. The meeting followed that messaging from the president who handed the ball, handed the mic to Vice President Vance who said they weren't going to be doing that kind of meeting. Call that fake news. But the reporting says that Attorney General Bondi and FBI Director Patel were there and that this occurred different than some of the initial reports ultimately at the White House. Now, if the location changed but the topics and meeting participants stayed the same, it looks like basically the core point of the early reporting that they were so quick to deny that there was a kind of high level emergency Epstein meeting still happened. Now here's Vance and Trump. As mentioned, it's completely fake news. We're not meaning to talk about the Epstein situation and I think the reporter who reported it needs to get better sources. Look, the whole thing is a hoax. It's put out by the Democrats because.
- [02:16]
Ted Danson
We'Ve had the most successful six months.
- [02:18]
Ari Melber
In the history of our country. And that's just a way of trying to divert attention to something that's total bull. The president there, who has increasingly sounded disinhibited in this second term, swearing in public, not something we usually see from presidents. But more important than the rhetoric are the underlying facts that contrary to the denials, there is evidence and reporting there is a meeting that, contrary to the initial claims that Donald Trump and his team would bring transparency to the Epstein case. The Epstein files, as we've heard them called no transparency at all, and MAGA leaders, among others, saying it's a cover up. And despite the denial, the report suggests that the strategy meeting advances residence was basically canceled in response to the reporting about it. So again, they are trying to do certain things while not getting caught doing those things, and they are willing to change locations or perhaps other details for the optics. But the story goes well beyond optics with reporting that casts doubt about Trump's denials and the way that he has tried to defend whatever his history is with Epstein. He had recently claimed to have banned Epstein from Mar a Lago in 2000. Aides said that he did ban the now deceased sex trafficker, but it was later in 04. But a new York Post article stokes different questions because it was in 2007 that that outlet, a tabloid that has long covered Donald Trump far, far longer than he was in politics, noted that Epstein denies he's banned from Mar a Lago and says in fact he was recently invited to an event there. Now that doesn't squash or end the matter because it may be that Epstein was trying to get out from under the perception that he's banned. And of course you could be banned from somewhere and still have some someone invite you there, not knowing you're banned. So a lot of that just feeds again, the questions about why it's so hard for everyone involved in their history to explain exactly what it was and when it ended. New Heat on Trump Meanwhile from maga. As we've been telling you, Trump has all but kept the door open to pardoning the only living Epstein conspirator in prison, Ms. Maxwell. Far right podcaster Candace Owens, responding thusly.
- [04:31]
Sarah Matthews
Don'T even act surprised when he pardons Ghislaine Maxwell.
- [04:33]
Ari Melber
That would just be foolish of you.
- [04:34]
Jess Michaels
Foolish of me to think that he's.
- [04:36]
Sarah Matthews
Not going to pardon Ghillain Maxwell. Okay, Trump is implicated by his sheer deceit. Right now in this moment, he is being so deceitful it's incredible.
- [04:47]
Ari Melber
Trump officials scrambling to get their story to straight. MAGA voices who have got again have been loyal on many other issues and controversies have have now made it clear week after week this one is different. They will not go along with the spin or outright lies. Some call it gaslighting. Joe Rogan call it the heat from MAGA is a reminder that a president who has at times had an almost cult like loyalty, which many politicians would like, is finding limits on it early in the second term. With that in mind, we turn to a guest well versed on exactly these issues. Sarah Matthews served as Trump White House Deputy Press Secretary, currently serves working with the Home of the Brave PAC, but also has distanced herself from Donald Trump from Jan.6 on. Welcome back to the program.
- [05:33]
Sarah Matthews
Thanks so much for having me on. Again.
- [05:36]
Ari Melber
What do you see specifically in a MAGA revolt that will not quiet as Donald Trump betrays or breaks many of the vows that he and others made about transparency? At least in this case.
- [05:51]
Sarah Matthews
Yeah, this is something that Donald Trump campaigned on. He said that when he was put back in office that he would release this list. And it wasn't just him, it was many of these administration officials as well. You look at folks like Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, they were out there saying the same thing, that they wanted to see transparency when it came to Jeffrey Epstein. And all of a sudden they seem to have changed their tune. You obviously know that Pam Bondi initially had all these right wing influencers come to the White House and they gave him these binders of phase one of releasing the Epstein files. And then all of a sudden the White House no longer wants to talk about it. Donald Trump keeps saying that this is a hoax. He's saying that using colorful language to describe it, as you noted as well at the top of the program. And it just begs the question, what are they trying to cover up? Because they either have to admit that they lied to their voters about there being a list or they need to acknowledge that they're part of COVID up when it comes to this. And it's not only a slap in the face to their voters when they campaigned on this. More importantly, it's a slap in the face to the victims who really deserve answers and transparency on this issue.
- [07:01]
Ari Melber
Let's take a listen to Congresswoman Mace, how she's trying to play this.
- [07:07]
Sarah Matthews
Most of the voters that I talk to want to see the files released. I mean, that's what I've heard all across South Carolina. But they're blaming the president's administration, Bondi, for not being transparent enough. Do you understand why they feel that way? Well, I know that the president has.
- [07:20]
Justin Wolfers
Asked for files to be released.
- [07:22]
Sarah Matthews
Like the transcript from the grand jury. He asked for those files to come out and be released and I guess the judge blocked it.
- [07:31]
Ari Melber
Sarah, we've seen some elected Republicans do that dance while the base and the sort of podcasters and new media folks who are clearly not as one note as say Fox News are taking a different tune. Given that you yourself have spoken out against Donald Trump, while you obviously worked for him for some reasons, you Drew a line and then experienced sort of the backlash that can come from that on the right or with maga. What do you think of this type of revolt and how does it play inside the White House, given your knowledge?
- [08:03]
Sarah Matthews
Yeah, I mean, this definitely is difficult for Republicans to manage, obviously, with anything. With Donald Trump, they're constantly toeing a line and trying to appease him. But with this issue in particular, we're seeing that it's sticking around. It's not going away. Obviously. We've been talking about it in the news for weeks. And so this isn't something that I feel like these elected officials can just ignore, brush off, because they know that their constituents want answers. And especially when you're coming from some of those more deep red districts, I think our deep red states, they know that their constituents in particular really care about this issue. And so they can't just brush it off, even though obviously the White House would love for them to do that. But I think it makes it even more difficult for someone not just like a Nancy Mace, but you look at Speaker Mike Johnson and how he's had to navigate this. He literally sent his, his office and everyone out of D.C. for the summer already and started the August recess early because he doesn't want to be talking about this issue and he's just hoping that it will go away.
- [09:08]
Ari Melber
Do you think that basically this whole approach you're talking about, make it go away, run out the clock? Do you think there's any risk that sort of. They lose people in a more fundamental way? We talked this week about how George Bush withstood many scandals and criticisms, but ultimately he had a Katrina moment. He never rebounded from it. Do you think Epstein could grow that large or is that sort of misunderstanding the way this movement works one you know about?
- [09:40]
Sarah Matthews
I think with any controversy with Donald Trump, it always appears like he's Teflon. Nothing is able to stick. And the news cycle quickly changes and he's able to bounce right back from any controversy I've ever witnessed with him. But this seems to be like the one that might have some sticking power. And I think it's because his MAGA base cares so deeply about this issue and he's trying to gaslight them. And I, I think that they are actually seeing through the lies and the distractions that him and the administration are pushing. And so it doesn't matter how many backroom, war room strategy type of meetings that this White House and the DOJ and the FBI are going to have on how to combat this. I think that the voters and the American people are demanding transparency and answers on this. And it does seem to really have riled up the base, as you noted with the podcaster types of Candace Owens, Joe Rogan, they're talking about this issue too. And a lot of those newer voters that came into the coalition for Trump who voted for him in 2024, they aren't as loyal maybe as some of the OG Maga base. And so I think that a lot of those voters are going to be really, really upset. And that's not exactly what you want as we go into the midterm election cycle that this is what we're talking about, that we're talking about Epstein. And it does just appear like there is a cover up happening from the administration.
- [11:05]
Ari Melber
Yeah. OG MAGA base, Sarah, I don't know that one, but I think I understand it. And you are reminding people Trump picked up a couple points in 24. So those are people by definition, statistically that may not have been there, as you say. And so they're more up for grabs. Even Rogan went from Bernie Sanders, people might recall all the way over to Trump. He's got 30 million listeners, give or take. And as you say, if he's not OG might also be more debatable. So that's super interesting. Sarah Matthews, thank you. Let me tell folks what's coming up. We got a basic fact check on these free speech debates and why one Russian author is saying Trump is doing Soviet tactics, an economic fact check as well. And an Epstein survivor joins us later this hour. We'll be back in 90 seconds. Back with the White House pressure that they're facing on the Epstein case. Trump's orbit know it. We've seen the top officials who held the strategy session that they tried to deny holding because they didn't want to politically look like this was some emergency thing. They want to claim that this is going away. No signs of that. More Epstein victims are speaking out as well about the apparent leniency for Ms. Maxwell and the botched handling of the secrecy around this case. As I mentioned, we have one such individual coming up this hour. But I want to begin with Pulitzer Prize winning columnist Eugene Robinson. You have covered so many issues in that town. How do you think this one is going? And what do you make of the White House really struggling to contain it even on a day by day basis, let alone find an ending to something with so many open questions?
- [12:47]
Eugene Robinson
Well, this one seems to have some kind of staying power. It seems to have legs, Ari. And one reason is that The Trump administration keeps finding ways to keep the story alive. They can't just, they're the ones really who can't stop talking about it. Apparently calling the strategy session to talk about how to maybe eventually stop talking about it. I mean, so it's not just Democrats or progressives, liberals, enemies of Trump, who are keeping this alive. The difference here, here is that it's the MAGA base that expected him to release Epstein files and Epstein list and is not going to be satisfied until he either does or explains more forthrightly why he won't.
- [13:48]
Ari Melber
Yeah. As you say, there are many broken promises in politics, but so many of them are forward looking. Like, we will build a wall. Oh, we didn't get to. We'll blame someone, so be it. Here it was, we have the list. The attorney general tells them on Fox they have the list and then, oops, we can't release it. So it feels very much like their cover up.
- [14:15]
Eugene Robinson
Yeah, it does feel like that. And remember, at the heart of this is a moral issue. Right. And that's what it was for a lot of people who really believed in a larger conspiracy, pedophile conspiracy. Maybe it was Democrats, maybe who knows who it was, but they believed that this existed. And here we have Jeffrey Epstein who did these things. And Donald Trump was supposed to be the mighty weapon against all of this.
- [14:52]
Ari Melber
Evil, the so called deep state.
- [14:55]
Eugene Robinson
Yeah, right. And so you can't feel two ways about what Jeffrey Epstein did. And so why isn't the President releasing all the information that he has that the government has about Epstein? It just seems like something that, it seems like a moral issue that people should know this and people perhaps should be punished for participating in what Epstein was doing.
- [15:28]
Ari Melber
Right. So you mentioned the moral part. And Gene, stay with me. We turn to our next guest who faced Epstein's abuse, Jess Michaels. She has previously spoken out about Epstein raping her in the early 1990s and she was 22 at the time. She's also now an advocate for sexual abuse victims. She founded three Joanne's a resource to help survivors. Jess, thanks for being here. What do you want people to know? What is important about all this within the context of the wider debate, scandal, secrecy, we've seen out of this Trump White House.
- [16:06]
Jess Michaels
Thank you so much for having me on, Ari. I really appreciate you being willing to hear a survivor's perspective, but not only a survivor's perspective, but an advocate, an advocate's perspective on what's happening. Because there are several things I see happening. One is this is a very personal Painful, both physically, emotionally, mentally, intellectually painful experience to go through, to see the level of injustice that's continuing to happen that has been going on now for decades. It's especially egregious because the victims did the right thing. They went to authorities, they've done all the right things. They have told their story over and over and over again, and no one is listening. The second part of that that I believe is truly problematic in the big picture is that I believe what we are seeing is a normalization of the, the decriminalization of sexual harm, rape, assault, pedophilia, and trafficking. And one of the reasons I'm saying that is it's not just that they're ignoring survivors when they're having meetings, when they're discussing, when they're talking with the convicted pedophile sex trafficker, they're never. I have not heard the words Epstein survivor out of the White House ever.
- [17:42]
Ari Melber
Right. And there's a lot of the approach that's been about sort of the, the political content of it. One real world result is the apparent leniency for an Epstein conspirator. Maxwell, what is your view of that?
- [17:55]
Jess Michaels
Oh, I think that's part of the reason why I believe we're. There's this undercurrent of decriminalization and making her look like a victim. I'm really shocked. And not that this woman has been able to weasel her way into getting, working towards a pardon, working towards leniency. I mean, the shocking fact is that this crime is rarely, rarely makes it to court. 10% of cases make it to court. Two and a half percent actually end up in jail. And we finally got one. We finally got one with so much evidence, so much evidence. If this one doesn't stick, how will any others after this? I mean, we're talking decades of evidence, volumes of evidence.
- [18:47]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Jess Michaels, as mentioned, we wanted to hear from you and get that context. Gene was talking about the moral dimension of this. Thanks to both of you. I'll tell viewers we're gonna fit in a break and then we have a fact check on this crackdown on free speech when we come back.
- [19:05]
Ted Danson
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- [19:35]
Sarah Matthews
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Justin Wolfers
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- [20:37]
Ari Melber
Donald Trump's trade war heating up again while he also tries to use and sometimes blatantly abuse federal government power to take control of free markets on Wall street. An interesting contrast as we've reported, because so many Wall street folks worried that past Democratic administrations would interfere in their business. But this first year of Trump second term has done so more than any modern administration. As for the tariffs, today they are here hitting many countries, raising import taxes to the highest level since the Great Depression as prices are up and job growth has slowed. Trump also meddles with these private companies. You have the tariffs, which so many American companies have vocally said will hurt both their employees and consumers in this country. But then you have the wider kind of Castro style meddling in what businesses do, and in some cases it is an abuse of power. Overnight, the price of intel dropped because Trump said the CEO must resign again. Imagine if Fidel Castro, FDR or any liberal president was just randomly taking shots at presidents or CEOs of companies. He also raised the sort of specter of conflicts with China, but didn't use any due process. Remember, he oversees the Justice Department. He's not just a pundit here and it raises the question of whether if he doesn't get his way, he'll have the doj investigate or do a sham probe. The Financial Times reported bankers find deal making tougher. The partisan agenda is clear. One saying it's a level of intrusion from this Republican White House they've never experienced before. In other words, worse than Obama or Clinton or other times where we did hear bankers worry about this, but now it's actually happening. Back in 2013, when Obama was using regular policy, not threats, we heard from Republicans that the president was trying to meddle to the point of picking winners and losers. Trump is actually doing that to a far, far higher degree, naming CEOs that should be fired, blatantly telling companies how to do hiring, whether to run diversity programs, et cetera. And remember, this is what Republicans said they opposed. It's a trade off that's at the very core of a country founded on the sacred rights of the individual, the liberty of each and every American. But it is not government's role to pick the winners and losers.
- [23:04]
Ted Danson
Government picking winners and losers and losing big.
- [23:07]
Ari Melber
It's socialism, it's command economy. It's picking winners and losers. Yeah, but I work for Ryan. Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was not in favor of picking winners and losers. That is how it sounded as a political attack. But the underlying concern is true. People don't like to be over regulated. And there's a lot of evidence that government systems like Cuba or China that have too much government involvement in the free market economy tend to interfere slow growth. There's actual evidence on this and then there's of course, the actual justice and democracy of it. We have a constitutional system, much as Trump might try to push against it. And we've seen that play out in the courts where the president does not just order enemies rounded up or business is destroyed if he doesn't like what they're doing. It's called free markets and freedom. So it was interesting when CNBC's Andrew Sorkin, who is very well sourced in this space, told us about top powerful Wall street people who worry about Trump going after them, investigating them, or even, as you'd see in Russia, jailing them after this horrific shooting that happened in midtown Manhattan earlier this week. This is one of those opportunities to have a reasonable conversation about gun violence in America. And a couple of CEOs called me up who said, yeah, we should be having that conversation. But I can't have that conversation because right now I'll lose that conversation. The President, if he wants to put me in jail, he can put me in jail. And then the tariffs, they have already rattled the markets. These new ones of course are just being absorbed and there is a ebb and flow to it or what Wall street has called Trump chickening out. But we know when the early tariffs sunk stocks. Plenty of those vocal MAGA podcasters didn't like it.
- [24:59]
Stephen A. Smith
Trump has put his tariffs all over the place. I've been trying to understand them.
- [25:04]
Ari Melber
I don't his giant tariff policy that he just dropped on the market unilaterally, probably unconstitutionally.
- [25:09]
Justin Wolfers
I don't know how many of you.
- [25:10]
Ari Melber
Guys are invested in crypto or stocks. What the is going on with our country guys? Why am I poor? Everything's in the because of it. I'm down 7 million bucks in stocks in crypto. We going to see more of the same and more of that revolt. Well, economist Justin Wolfers will break it down next.
- [25:33]
Ted Danson
Hey everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name and we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts, you.
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Ari Melber
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Eugene Robinson
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Ari Melber
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Ari Melber
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- [26:56]
Ari Melber
We're back with University of Michigan economics professor Justin Wolfers. Host the podcast Think like an Economist. Welcome back.
- [27:03]
Justin Wolfers
Glad to be here, mate.
- [27:06]
Ari Melber
Let's start with what it means that the Under Trump, the United States is moving more towards what we'd see in Russia or Cuba than what we traditionally expect in the US you can have a hawkish or dovish trade policy on the One hand, but on the other, we have a president who publicly admits he wants to pick the CEOs and he wants to threaten people within business.
- [27:35]
Justin Wolfers
I'm really glad you're picking up on this, Ari. This is the most interventionist White House of my lifetime. This is a guy who thinks that he knows who should run intel, that he should tell Tim Cook where Apple should run its factories, that he should call Harvard and tell it what should be on its curriculum and who it should be hiring. There's not a CEO alive in America right now who isn't constantly thinking about what is going on in the White House. That's a very, very dangerous situation. So, first of all, do you trust the judgment of the guy in the White House to make a better iPhone, or of Tim Cook? And second of all, would you prefer that Tim Cook spent his days thinking about how best to please the President, what shiny bauble to bring him, or would you prefer him to be able to do what his predecessor, Steve Jobs, did? Steve was a brilliant visionary who spent his time thinking about how to design a more beautiful iPhone. And I don't mean this as a statement about phones. I mean it as a metaphor for the American economy, who should be making those choices and what it is that. That they should be focused on. And right now, we look a lot like Turkey, like Argentina, and like a range of countries that have had strong men who want to impose their own will rather than to trust market forces.
- [28:51]
Ari Melber
Yeah, it's a really striking shift. It's also different than the first term, and it's a reminder that these spectrums we're told about left, right, don't account for everything, because in this way, you call it interventionist. He's much more like a Chavez or a Castro or a Putin than he is anything we've seen in mainstream American politics. As for the new tariffs, everyone's heard about it. It's summer. We kind of feel like we've gone through this. But what is happening now? In plain English, Ari, you sound bored.
- [29:22]
Justin Wolfers
Of the tariff story, and honestly, you should be, and so should your readers. But let me just tell you that we've just had probably a $300 billion tax hike. We've had an enormous tax hike, and Congress didn't see it once. Congress, of course, is the body that the Constitution gave the power to raise taxes. Trump on tariffs is the dog that finally caught the car. April 2, the deadline became April 9, became July 9, became August 1, finally became August 7. And right now, you and I are paying tariffs at Exorbitantly high rates. The White House is boasting that they've discovered that this raises taxes. Now, that's never been in question. It's obviously the case that when you impose taxes on people, you raise revenue. The real questions are, is this a tax that's efficient? Does it lead to better choices? And no, it doesn't. It's raising the cost on American businesses. Is this a tax that's equitable? No, it's not. Where Trump gave tax cuts to the richest Americans, tariffs are a tax hike that really affect those who spend most of their salary and that's working in middle class Americans. And is this a set of taxes that serves America's national interest? And as someone who just got back from two weeks in Japan and was talking to economists from all around the world, let me tell you that this is not serving our national interest in any way whatsoever.
- [30:45]
Ari Melber
Yeah, well, you lay it out and I never mean to seem bored. We all are experiencing these, these very action packed times together. Justin, we'll be coming back to you this, this program. So I'll see you again soon. Coming up, Bob Woodward, the legendary journalist known for his nonpartisanship and his seriousness, has some words for Trump that go farther than we've just about ever heard from him. That's next. It's pathetic that you have the President of the United States out there just pounding away and saying, oh, look, we have got to do it my way and only my way. Strong words from Watergate journalist Bob Woodward there telling us this week Trump's First Amendment crackdowns are, quote, pathetic. They are also unfortunately, working on some of the most powerful companies in the country. This is the connective tissue from some of the other stories we discussed tonight. Paramount and Skydance have now closed their multi billion dollar merger after paying out Trump and having a controversial Colbert cancellation, which they said was financial anyway, but adds to the entire view that Trump is able to get his way with these corporations. Trump also has an active lawsuit against the Fox News sister outlet, the Wall Street Journal over another story that remains in the news. It's reporting over Epstein Trump links, which the Journal stands by. And we want to turn to a novelist who grew up in Russia and knows all about hardcore Soviet censorship. Harry Steingard has written Absurdistan and super sad True Love Story. Just as we learn from political thinkers and authors of nonfiction, sometimes when we turn to the people who are using their voice artistically, even more broadly, it's very striking to see what they say. And when you add in the real world experience he draws parallels from that Soviet crackdown to what Trump is doing right now. Take a look.
- [32:52]
Ted Danson
I grew up in a system where there's a lot of censorship. There were very few books you could read from abroad. I remember the one book that I was allowed to read was Marx, Mark Twain, Tom Sawyer. But it had an introduction by one of Stalin's henchmen, which was very fun introduction. Stalin wanted to purge all the, you know, whatever, Mark Twain, et cetera. But I'm very worried about the kind of confluence I see between America and the United and Russia. One thing Russia has always done is create its own. It doesn't just want you not to know the truth, but it tries to create a kind of alternate reality. I think when you grow up in a totalitarian or authoritarian society, it stains you no matter what happens to you later on. I mean, I still have a sense of distrust, a sense of.
- [33:38]
Ari Melber
Lack of.
- [33:40]
Ted Danson
Belief in certain systems, because when you grow up without knowing what the truth is, you spend the rest of your life wondering who you are and how you belong in a society. I was 7, 8 years old. I knew all the members of the Politburo by name. The politics were always around you. And my son, he's 11 years old, him and his friends, they talk about Trump all the time and about Trump's henchmen. It's almost like that's the idea, is that they become ubiquitous, and that's the only reality, you know, even if you have parents who are saying, okay, this is not great, it's the only world you know, because it finds its way. Censoring books, like, for example, Toni Morrison, Right, which is something a high schooler would read, but still denying people the ability to read, you know, the truth about the African American experience. That to me, is shocking and so Soviet at heart. I've known friends in the. In. In Russia who are completely silent on social media and every other mode that they can. There's a r. A Soviet term called writing into your desk, meaning that you know that what you write is going to offend the authorities, so you write into your desk so nobody else will see it. That's the danger. It becomes a chilling self censorship, and that's something that I am absolutely worried about.
- [34:54]
Ari Melber
That's the danger. Writing into your desk. Gary Steingart was telling us about that during the First Amendment discussion we convened along with Geraldo. But the point runs deeply when you think about all these pressures on these companies, who are the employers and purveyors of news, of culture, of entertainment, all the ways we understand the world around us. Donald Trump is less popular than he was when he won the election. There are, as you've seen, because you follow the news, great rebellions across the spectrum, from Epstein on the right to immigration on the left, to a lot of economic concerns in the middle with rising prices. But if you have a closed society where people are afraid to voice those true feelings or report on them, then maybe the rest of the country lives through a distorted, confusing reality of, well, if everyone I know is concerned about this and it's not working, are you the one that's out of touch? There's a reason that autocrats use these tools and people who've lived through it say, not only is it bad for everyone in that country, but it's dangerous for distorting and consolidating the power of those who would not otherwise have public support to rule. That's why it is about free speech, but also so much more. We'll be right back. We're approaching the end of this long week and we have a fallback for you. Look who's here. Justin Wolfers returns and Guns Dashi, who's about to embark on his Australia tour. 12 gold records. Nice to see you. Over a billion streams. And we're going to show folks just some of these collabs.
- [36:55]
Stephen A. Smith
She don't like roses.
- [36:57]
Ari Melber
Cut the net off that rim now.
- [36:58]
Eugene Robinson
Give me my rings, my rings, my rings.
- [37:03]
Ari Melber
His new album is the Killer Whales of Gotham. Also joining us back from earlier in the hour, the economics professor Justin Wolfers, who shared his insights right here on msnbc, is a podcast star in this digital space. And he literally wrote the book on economics textbooks that are actually used by students, students all over the world. You know, when you have to read for homework, you read that much closer. Welcome to both of you. Justin, you have made it into the cooler segment.
- [37:32]
Justin Wolfers
They said it, it would never happen. But, Gashi, I hear you going to Australia soon, mate. So let me know if you need to know some places to hang out.
- [37:40]
Stephen A. Smith
Yeah, I'm still trying to fix this in here so I could hear you guys clearer.
- [37:45]
Ari Melber
Sorry, take a minute. Cause Justin's gonna go first anyway. Goshi, take a second. All right? We'll get you settled. But, Justin, very, very generous offer because the road is a hard life. But let's get your fallback. We've got this footage of something you actually mentioned tonight, but we didn't really get deep into it and I don't know that everybody's followed it, which is watching a tech titan like the Apple CEO deliver, I don't know, a ceremonial gift to the President and what that means. Go ahead. You wanted that to fall back, mate.
- [38:19]
Justin Wolfers
I just think CEOs going to Washington to kiss the ring is humiliating. And it's not just humiliating, it's bad for all of us. So look, here we've got a bloke literally on live television walking into the White House with an object made of gold to give to the king. There was a time when you were meant to give these bribes under the table or when folks weren't looking. But, you know, things are different now, apparently. And look, there's a broader story, and I'm, I'm totally serious about this, by the way. Those CEOs owe their riches to the fact that we have a well functioning capitalist economy and a democracy. Yet here they are, they're willing to give it away at the first sniff that they can do a little bit better for themselves and their companies. And I wish that they'd have the dignity to stand up and I wish they'd understand that the democracy that their companies operate in operate because the rest of us stand up against autocracy. And it's time for them to have the courage to actually say something, something about what's happening in front of us.
- [39:22]
Ari Melber
Yeah, it's. And seeing it somehow brings it home because this is what Trump wants. And many years ago, people would have found it hard to believe that we're this kind of place where folks are coming in and giving out gifts, including, of course, a little bit of gold. He loves his gold. Goshi, how you doing, man?
- [39:43]
Stephen A. Smith
I just got this in ear kind of settled in. It was a little distorted. We just fixed it.
- [39:47]
Ari Melber
It. Okay, good. Well, welcome to television. You know, I always tell folks it's, it can be harder than it looks. People at home are like, what's the. Why is Ra seem out of sorts? It's like, I got the earpiece, I got the mic, you know, it takes a second. So. Welcome. What's on your fallback list, sir?
- [40:05]
Stephen A. Smith
I think I was coming up. We were picking. Either it was going to go, we were going to talk about the, the Boo Boo dolls or they. I also want to talk about the fallback on the toys. The toys. I told aj, I said we should talk about that. I thought that was very important, you know, being an uncle, being a.
- [40:27]
Ari Melber
The price of toys.
- [40:28]
Stephen A. Smith
Yeah, the price of toys, yeah. Cause I was like, you know what? I have too many friends that love those dolls. I can't talk about them because then I may have to hear it soon as I leave here. So I was just gonna talk about the price of toys and how important it is for especially now with parents being able to afford toys for their kids and what's going on. I'm an uncle to four. You know, going to target is like the best thing during the holidays and being able to get stuff for the kids that they can afford. And I'm trying to do everything to keep them off the iPad right now. Cause they love just being on that.
- [41:06]
Ari Melber
All day, but right off a screen on a real toy. And you were saying, yeah, the way the prices are surging. We've seen that with, with the inflation in this economy. We've seen it with the tariffs don't help depending on where the toys are coming from.
- [41:19]
Stephen A. Smith
Yeah, yeah. It's just. It's just, you know, we gotta let kids be kids and be able, you know. Cause they get over them quick as they get over them quick as possible to get over it. So, you know, just not having anything to be able to bring home and making it harder for people, especially in this climate that we're in right now, making it harder for parents as it is. I mean, especially during the summer when kids are not even in school, like. Like what are they going to do? You know what I mean? To be putting parents in that position is kind of difficult, you know, it's hard.
- [41:46]
Ari Melber
So. Yeah, well, I think. No, I think that's. That's an important one. And Justin knows all about. He said I was acting bored earlier with the tariff story, but he knows all about how those prices go up. Goshi, tell us about your tour and is there anything you want to know about Australia from Justin?
- [42:05]
Stephen A. Smith
My tour is coming up. First time ever going to Australia ever. You know, I was on tour in 2020. The pandemic happened. I had to shut it down. I haven't been on tour since then. I was supposed to go to Australia, didn't. Now I have a chance to finally meet these fans who've been waiting for me for years. I get to finally meet them, see their faces. That flight's gonna be long. But you know, go to Australia and then get. Come domestically, do a Europe tour. But then we. I can't wait to have a domestic tour where I get to be in the States, which I've never got a chance to do at all. And you know, I'm very excited about it. The Killer Whales of Gotham is the first time me releasing an album independently since I left RCA Records. And you know, my contract was up over there. It's been very difficult being an independent artist, especially in the climate wind, you know, right now where it's like we're moving so fast at a rapid pace, where everybody's just, you know, it's like you're it one second and the next second they're just looking at the Labubu doll or something like. It's like the new thing.
- [43:09]
Ari Melber
There you go. So we're closing it out. What's your tip for the long flight, Justin? I got 20 seconds.
- [43:16]
Justin Wolfers
I'm just saying, Gashi, when you get to Australia, mate, you've heard about the spiders and the snakes. Look out for the drop bears. They drop out of trees and they just attack tourists. So just be careful. Always be wearing that hat, brother.
- [43:28]
Stephen A. Smith
All right, I'm about to cancel this flight now.
- [43:31]
Ari Melber
Hey, who even knew? This is why we like our pair. Goshi, your first time on the Beat. Welcome. Good luck on the tour. With the music you're making, independent artists means you're not relying on these big companies. So appreciate you getting your voice out that way, Justin. Thank you. Absolutely. This is the Beat. Thanks for watching.
- [43:48]
Stephen A. Smith
It's Stephen A. Smith here.
- [43:49]
Ted Danson
You want sports?
- [43:50]
Ari Melber
SiriusXM's got it all. Every game, every team, all season long.
- [43:54]
Stephen A. Smith
Debates, rants, hot takes and no filter whatsoever.
- [43:57]
Ari Melber
Trust and believe.
- [43:58]
Stephen A. Smith
You don't want to miss what I have to say.
- [44:00]
Ari Melber
This week on the Stephen A. Smith show, only on SiriusXM.