New Report: Trump Compares Himself to Past Emperors

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: New Report: Trump Compares Himself to Past Emperors
Date: April 30, 2026
Host: Eamonn Mohyeldin (in for Ari Melber)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode delves into the ongoing political and economic turmoil under Donald Trump’s current presidency, with a special focus on his “imperial ambitions” as reported by The Atlantic. The discussions span economic woes linked to the Iran war, deteriorating public support, Trump’s growing identification with historical emperors, his attempts to enshrine his image in US institutions, controversial DOJ actions, and escalating crackdowns on media and free speech.

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Key Topics & Insights

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1. Economic Turmoil Amid the Iran War

Segment Start: [01:00]

• Surging Oil and Gas Prices:

  • Oil prices increased to $120/barrel, up from $70 before the Iran war.
  • Average US gas price is now $4.30/gallon, diesel at $5.55.
  • These prices are a significant voter concern.

• Economic Growth Paradox:

  • New Commerce Department data shows US GDP grew 2% in Q1.
  • “Tax refunds and the AI boom have offset some US economic pain from Iran and the high gas prices…” ([01:26], read from The Washington Post)

• Inflation Data:

  • Key inflation gauge has jumped to a three-year high, especially due to rising gas prices.
  • “March prices outgrew American incomes for the second straight month.” ([01:50])

• Republican Worries:

  • GOP strategists describe “a dark, sour, ugly, bad, bleak” election outlook ([03:08], attributed to The New York Times).
  • Trump's approval hits a record low at 34%, and just 22% approve of his handling of cost of living.

• Expert Analyses:

  • Michelle Goldberg: Trump’s perceived economic “magic” is waning, opening him to new vulnerabilities.

    “The people who voted for him because of the economy are the ones who I think are going to become most easily disillusioned.” ([04:46])

  • Justin Wolfers: Trump’s own policies (“Iran war,” “trade wars”) are significantly to blame for the economic decline and uncertainty.

    “We were promised a four to five week war. … I tell you we're in week seven or eight right now and no one knows how this ends. That in itself is a form of uncertainty that'll undermine the economy.” ([06:14])

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2. Political Fallout & Trump’s Base Fracturing

Segment Start: [07:10]

• War Comparisons:

  • Trump angered many by comparing the Iran war’s duration to Vietnam and Iraq, framing himself as a “wartime leader.”

• Fraying Republican Unity:

  • Even former stalwarts like Tucker Carlson are publicly criticizing Trump:

    “You have not done a good job running this country. You don't even care to try. You'd rather run the world or the empire…” — Tucker Carlson ([03:53], quoted by Eamonn)

• Voter Sentiment:

  • Recent polls cited: 65% of independents say Biden managed the economy better than Trump ([11:21]).

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3. Trump’s “Imperial Ambitions” and Emulating Emperors

Segment Start: [16:28]

• Atlantic Report on Trump’s Mindset:

  • Trump is now allegedly comparing himself not just to US presidents, but to Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon.
  • “He’s begun thinking about himself... as an addition to the trifecta of great men: Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Napoleon Bonaparte. All three of these men were literally emperors, not just kings.” ([16:54])

• Direct Actions toward Self-Aggrandizement:

  • Trump is directing the US Mint to make coins with his face; putting his name on government buildings; renaming the Kennedy Center; proposing massive public monuments.
  • Public response: Less than 20% support such self-honoring projects. Only 12% approve of his signature on currency.

• Insider Reporting (Ashley Parker, The Atlantic):

  "He is now talking about himself as the most powerful person who ever lived... We're seeing... a largeness and freeing of ambition.” — Ashley Parker ([20:37])

  • “...whether it's remaking the nation's capital in his image... his visage on coins and on the passport, having a UFC fight in honor of America’s 250th birthday, but he's actually having it on his birthday.” ([21:18])

• Trumpism’s Legacy Question:

  • Discussions around whether his legacy-building includes intentions—real or performative—of staying in power longer than the constitution allows.

    “It has been described to us... this is almost a subconscious attempt at legacy building,” — Ashley Parker ([25:35])

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4. DOJ’s Pursuit of Trump’s Enemies & Legal Overreach

Segment Start: [26:28]

• James Comey Indictment:

  • DOJ, following the firing of Attorney General Pam Bondi, is reviving a flimsy case against ex-FBI Director James Comey over so-called “seashell threats.”
  • Legal analysts, including Barbara McQuade, widely dismiss this as a baseless and likely-to-be-dismissed attempt at political retribution.

• Quote:

  “If they were really concerned that Jim Comey had threatened the life of the President... he would have been arrested the next day, not almost a year later.” — Barbara McQuade ([29:39])

  • The pattern is described as “an abuse of power by a president fixated on revenge.” ([27:16])

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5. Crackdown on Media & Free Speech

Segment Start: [33:13]

• Trump Targets Jimmy Kimmel and Disney/ABC:

  • Trump makes explicit threats regarding Jimmy Kimmel’s employment and pressures the FCC to investigate Disney.
  • Actions seen as weaponizing regulatory power to punish critical media figures and organizations.

• Press Freedom in Decline:

  • US slides to #64 in the World Press Freedom Index, with Donald Trump’s repeated attacks and policies identified as prime causes. ([35:25])
  • Experts see this as evidence of systemic government encroachment on press independence.

• Notable Quotes:

  “This is a president who always needs grievance. He always needs someone to bully.” — David Litt ([36:09])
  “All of these things coming together where Trump and his administration say, 'We want government control, we want our hands in everything.' And they're not even ashamed to admit it.” — David Litt ([40:04])

• Broader Implications:

  • Discussion on weakening institutional guardrails and the need for future action to protect the press from executive overreach.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Eamonn, on Trump’s ambitions:

  “A new report suggests they may have been underestimating Trump's ambitions... Trump allies say he has begun thinking about himself... more as an emperor.” ([16:54])

• Ashley Parker, on the “YOLO Presidency”:

  “This is someone who is unburdened by ever facing voters on the ballot again... you see that in everything from the war in Iran... to physical, tangible tributes in his honor.” ([21:41])

• Justin Wolfers, on economic outlook:

  “Without [the AI sector], there was essentially no growth... despite that burst of strength, the economy as a whole underperformed...” ([09:22])

• Michelle Goldberg, on political expectations:

  “People become infuriated when you tell them that they are not seeing the things that they’re seeing, or that they’re not experiencing the pain they’re experiencing.” ([11:52])

• Barbara McQuade, on DOJ overreach:

  “Bringing this case, it's very aggressive, it's ruthless, but it's also clumsy and baseless.” ([28:21])

• David Litt, on Trump’s media strategy:

  “It's amazing to me that what used to be the party of small government is now the party of... who the chair of the Federal Communications Commission is.” ([39:48])

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Economic overview, gas prices, and GOP reaction: [01:00]–[04:46]
• Expert panel: Trump’s economics and waning magic: [04:46]–[06:14]
• Polling, base disaffection, Tucker Carlson turn: [07:10]–[11:21]
• Republican gas price spin & political consequences: [10:35]–[13:03]
• The Atlantic report on Trump’s emperor complex: [16:28]–[19:51]
• Ashley Parker interview on imperial ambitions: [20:09]–[26:16]
• DOJ Comey indictment and political retribution: [26:28]–[32:29]
• Media crackdown, FCC, Press Freedom discussion: [33:13]–[41:48]
• Final analysis on media control and democratic norms: [41:48]–[44:08]

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Structure and Tone

The episode is direct, urgent, and analytical, matching the current heightened state of US politics. Guests combine factual reporting with critical commentary, often delivering sharp, witty asides about Trump’s unprecedented approaches to power, media, and image-building.

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Conclusion

This episode paints a portrait of a US president obsessed with legacy, power, and personal aggrandizement, even at the expense of norms, institutions, and public support. The discussions tie together economic struggles, failing public confidence, authoritarian imagery, legal vendettas, and attacks on press freedom—connecting these threads as symptoms of a larger struggle over the future of American democracy.

Transcript

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[Eamonn]

to the beat everyone. I'm Ayman Mohiddin in for Ari Melbourne. We start today with Trump in trouble as the ongoing war in Iran impacts everyday Americans. Of course you already know this. Oil prices are now at the highest level since the war started, something that will keep US gas prices rising. Brent crude oil surging past $120 this morning before pulling back. Just to remind everyone, before the war began, oil was $70 a barrel. Now the average gas price this morning hit $4.30 a gallon, a jump of more than 7 cents from just yesterday and more than a dollar above the average a year ago. But new Commerce Department data shows that the US economy actually grew 2% in the first three months of this year. The Washington Post reporting quote, tax refunds and AI boom have offset some US Economic pain from Iran and the high gas prices that we're seeing from that war back. But that's not enough for Americans. There's also new reporting showing a key inflation gauge jumping to the highest level in three years, driven by those rising gas prices that we were just talking about, which shot up 21% in March from February data showing that in March prices outgrew American incomes for the second straight month. GOP lawmakers are trying to spin this, but voters wallets don't don't lie. In the end, people vote their wallets and I don't really trust surveys. You've got an average for regular now of $4.30 a gallon. It was at 7 cents overnight, and diesel's gone to what, $555.60. That hits voters hard. Gas prices continue to come down, which means that your groceries will come down. People will remember.

[Justin Wolfers]

You go back two years ago, we were paying almost $6 a gallon for gasoline. Right now, it's in the threes.

[Eamonn]

And we were paying six.

[Justin Wolfers]

Still 52. Two and a half years ago, I think we were. That wasn't the average.

[Eamonn]

Yeah. Republicans know a bad economy will hurt them in the midterms. The New York Times reports that Republicans are bracing for a brutal election. Quote, in private, Republican political strategists are grimly trading synonyms to describe the darken, sour, ugly, bad, bleak. This as Trump's approval ratings continues to sink to a record low of 34%, according to a Reuters poll. His approval on cost of living is even lower than that. It sat a staggering 22%. Trump's once loyal base now turning on him, including his former ally, Tucker Carlson, saying that Trump failed. This is not how you would ever treat people you cared about. This is how you treat people you hate. They are a reminder of how you have failed. You have not done a good job running this country. You don't even care to try. You'd rather run the world or the empire. A normal, reflective person would reach the only conclusion possible, which is because they're dissatisfied with me. Joining me now is Michelle Goldberg, columnist for the New York Times and Ms. Now political analyst and Justin Wolfers, economist with the University of Michigan and host of the Think Like An Economist podcast. It's good to have both of you with us. So the economy, here is the headline, Michelle. And the Republicans clearly see the writing on the wall. They're trying to spin it. It doesn't make sense. The numbers don't add up. Some of the things they're saying are flat out not true. And so I guess, should they be spooked by what they're seeing in the economy?

[Michelle Goldberg]

I mean, yes, obviously they should be spooked. And they are spooked, I think, particularly because one of the things that has made Donald Trump so frustratingly invincible over the years, that has, you know, despite the scandals, his grotesque personal behavior, is that there's a segment of the electorate that believes that he has some sort of magic when it comes to the economy. Right. They think that he was a great businessman. And, you know, much to the kind of consternation and frustration of people who watched his career up close, they think that the Apprentice was real and that the reason that the economy was good during his first term was because of some particular business savvy that he had. And so you know those, the people who voted for him because of the economy are the ones who I think are going to become most easily disillusioned.

[Eamonn]

Yeah. To that point, Justin, you know, the first time around in 2016, he was the president Covid hit, you know, it was such a once in a generation economic crisis that some people kind of dismissed that the economic situation right now and correct me if I'm wrong here, you're the economist is of his own doing this Iran war that he started, the tariff wars that he started before that. Those are things that he purposefully sought out that have now undermined our economy and hit Americans in their wallets.

[Justin Wolfers]

Absolutely. So actually really interesting in yesterday's press conference, Fed Chair Jay Powell said the economy's been hit by four supply shocks in a row. The first of those was Covid, obviously not directly the President's fault. The response though was very much in his court. The next was the Ukraine, Russia war, which we could have played a constructive role in ending a little quicker. We chose not to. The president then started the trade war and as far as as I can tell, he got bored halfway and he's wandered off after the Supreme Court have told him his initial tariffs are not okay and he's put some other ones in but they're going to run out and no one knows what happens next in this soap opera. And now we have the war in Iran which obviously is huge impact in the United States, even bigger impact on the global economy. And we were promised a four to five week war. And when I tell you we're in week seven or eight right now and no one knows how this ends, that in itself is a form of uncertainty that'll undermine the economy.

[Eamonn]

Yeah, I was going to say and you had President Trump earlier in the week saying that basically don't compare it to the couple of weeks he's been fighting this war. Look at the Vietnam War, look at the Iraq war, which I think is not a good sign when you're starting to make comparisons to either one of those decades long war. Michelle, let me play for you, Brett Hume, who's kind of making this projection for the Republicans come the midterms watch. I think people are concerned about the economy and the Republicans are likely to pay a price for that. I think if the election were held today, given how in the middle of this conflict that the House would be obviously gone and there's a good chance that the Senate would go too. But the war Outcome, I think will produce a reset, for better or for worse, for each party. What does that reset look like, barring they don't rig the elections with all the gerrymandering that they're doing right now?

[Michelle Goldberg]

Well, I think that kind of assumes that the war comes to an end as opposed to stays, this sort of frozen conflict that we have right now. And you have to think that. That this is unsustainable. Unsustainable for Iran, yes, But also certainly unsustainable for the United States and the rest of the world. Although Donald Trump seems to think that he can just wait this out, even though obviously the political pressures on him are significantly more than the political pressures on the IGRC that doesn't have an electorate to answer to. But I mean, yes, obviously if Donald Trump were to somehow miraculously engineer an end to this catastrophe that he's blundered into, it would improve Republican fortunes. It's just so difficult to see what that could possibly be.

[Eamonn]

Justin, break down this economic growth news for us today so we can understand it. The Wall Street Journal reports that the economy didn't expand as fast as economists expected. I think consumer spending rose at 1.6% as a pace in the first quarter, which was slower than the 1.9% in the fourth quarter of last year, but still nonetheless growth. What do you make of this? How do you explain this with the AI boom and what we're seeing? How do you reconcile those two?

[Justin Wolfers]

You're exactly right there, Eamonn. There's two important letters that will explain all of it and they're a followed by I 95% of the economic growth this quarter came out of the technology intensive sectors. Without that, there was essentially no growth. There's also another really important story people need to bear in mind. At the end of 2025, we got the GDP numbers and those GDP numbers were very weak because there'd been a government shutdown. The government then reopened and we're told we should ignore the weakness at the end of 2025 because the government was going to reopen and therefore give us a whole burst of strength. Well, today we had that burst of strength. And despite that burst of strength, the economy as a whole underperformed relative to what most people expected and really only grew in the AI sector.

[Eamonn]

How long would it be, Justin, if this war ends? The president, we heard some of the Republicans there. I think it was Tim Scott, in the montage that we played, they used this talking point, gas prices are gonna plummet. Gas price gonna go down. Once this war is over. You know this better than I do. But realistically speaking, that's not how this works. It's not that tomorrow the war ends, that suddenly gas prices drop by a dollar in the course of a couple of months.

[Justin Wolfers]

It's absolutely not how this ends. And they know it, and they're lying. Look, there's a very simple way of figuring out where gas prices are going. Gas depends on oil. And it turns out we have very good oil futures markets. So people are literally right now buying and selling oil for delivery in November. I've chosen November there because it seems like a month you might be interested in. As of right now, the November oil price is as high as it's ever been. In fact, higher. The Republicans know and everyone in markets knows, and any economist with a pulse knows that this does not disappear quickly. In fact, if you look at futures markets for 26, 27, 28, 29, it may not be as bad as it is today, but it's a lot worse than it was before the war, which is to say all of us are going to be paying more for gas for a long time in the future.

[Eamonn]

So I guess, Michelle, we're just going to keep hearing more of this gaslighting from Republicans, even though independents who were polled are telling us that when they were asked which president had the stronger economy, it was surprisingly, Joe Biden by far, because they felt it. And I think this was from April 23rd to April 26th, 65% felt that, 65% of independents felt that Joe Biden had a better economy than Donald Trump's 35%.

[Barbara McQuade]

Yeah.

[Michelle Goldberg]

I mean, and I understand why a Republican would not want to say on cable news that, you know, gas prices are really high and they're not coming down. That's probably a painful thing to say, but it seems politically bizarre to try to set expectations that, you know, cannot be met. And, you know, people become infuriated when you tell them that they are not seeing the things that they're seeing or that they're not experiencing the pain that they're experiencing. Joe Biden, I think, was hurt by that to some extent when they kept insisting that the economy was much better by many measures, than people perceived it to be. It didn't convince people. It enraged people.

[Eamonn]

So, Michelle, to that point about enraging people, you've obviously saw the clip that we played of Tucker Carlson, one of the president's stalwart allies during the campaign, campaigned with him. I think he even spoke at some point in the inauguration festivities. I mean, he was a true believe in Donald Trump, not just a political, not out of political convenience, but a true believer. And now he's telling him, you have failed. How significant is that? Is, is that going to create a rupture?

[Michelle Goldberg]

Well, I would say, I mean, look, there is a rupture there. I'm not sure how much Tucker, I think Tucker Carlson is a huge believer in the sort of nationalist populist project. He did say that Donald Trump was, I think demonic after January 6th. And he's someone, but he's someone who sort of understands where the zeitgeist of the is going and gets there first. And, you know, I think that's why he's been so successful as a media entrepreneur. And so he's capital. He's both responding to but also capitalizing on this kind of ambient right wing disaffection. It obviously is still only a minority of the Republican Party. Most Republicans are loyal to Trump, but this class of influencers that helped give him this feeling of sort of cultural momentum, they've all broken away from him. Although I do think there's something kind of a little bit eye rolling about the fact that, that Tucker Carlson is only now coming to understand that Donald Trump is completely indifferent to people who sort of are not billionaires who spend their time in New York, Washington or Palm Beach.

[Eamonn]

Yeah, it's a very good point. I mean, he may have believed in 2016. It's hard to for him to believe it happened again in 2020 and then in 2024. And now is only coming to Michelle Goldberg. Justin Wolfers, great to have both of you starting us off this evening. Greatly appreciate it as always. Coming up, new reporting on how Trump's DOJ dropped and then revived its bizarre comey indictment over the seashells. Plus, Jeff Bezos with yet another attempt to curry favor with Trump with a possible reboot of the Apprentice. This time though, starring Don Jr. But first, new backlash to Trump's desire to model himself on emperors of the past. We're back in just 90 seconds.

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[Donald Trump]

They say we don't need them. Freedom. Freedom. He's a dictator. He's a dictator. A lot of people are saying maybe we like a dictator. So the line is that I'm a dictator but I stop crime. So a lot of people say, you know, if that's the case, I'd rather have a dictator. They say he's a horrible dictator type person. I'm a dictator, but sometimes you need a dictator. I'm not a king. What I am. If I was a king, I wouldn't be dealing with you.

[Eamonn]

Well, millions of Americans disagree with that and they have marched in no king protests. But a new report suggests they may have been underestimating Trump's ambitions. The Atlantic reporting that Trump allies say he has begun thinking about himself less as the peer of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln and more as an addition to the trifecta of great men, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Napoleon Bonaparte. All three of these men were literally emperors, not just kings. Trump suffering delusions of grandeur here. One Trump confidant telling the Atlantic he has been talking recently about how he is the most powerful person to ever live. Consciously or not, he is certainly emulating those emperors in at least one way. He is directing the US Mint to produce coins with his face on them. Putting your own face on money is something that these other emperors also famously did. In a sense, this is nothing new for Donald Trump. He has been putting his name and his face on products that he has been trying to peddle for decades.

[Donald Trump]

When it comes to great stakes, I've just raised the stakes. My new game is Trump the Game, the God bless the USA Bible. Trump University we teach success. That's what it's all about, it's a smooth vodka. It's a great tasting vodka. The elegance of Trump Vineyard Estates. It just can't be beat. We are the first, first plane out. This morning. We were the most successful flight this morning. We had more people than anybody else, and I think we had better service than anybody else.

[Eamonn]

Now Trump is doing to the US Government what he did to cheap steaks and bad vodka. He is putting his name and his face on everything, renaming the Kennedy center to himself, doing the same to the Institute of Peace. He is planning to put his signature on paper currency. And of course, there is the gold coin that we just mentioned. He's pressing for this enormous arch in his honor on the National Mall. And he has been draping federal buildings with, you see it there, giant banners of his own face. He's also putting his face on passes to national parks. And guess what could be next? Yep, your passport, as well as a Trump class warship being created by the Navy. But here's the thing. Americans actually are not buying any of it. Polls show very low support for some of these projects, only in the 20s for the ballroom and the arch. And just 12% approve of Trump putting his signature on US currency. We're going to talk to Ashley Parker, one of the reporters who wrote that Atlantic story, after this quick break.

[Donald Trump]

The most glorious, the most august Napoleon, Emperor of the French, is crowned and enthroned. Long live the emperor.

[Eamonn]

Joaquin Phoenix there being crowned as emperor in the film Napoleon. Joining me now is Ashley Parker, staff writer at the Atlantic. She's one of the authors of the latest piece about Trump's imperial ambitions. Ashley, it's great to have you on the show. So Trump is modeling himself, it seems. He's certainly obsessed with emperors plastering his name and face across government. Give us a sense of what is actually happening here. What is the animating ideology behind why Donald Trump is doing what he is?

[Ashley Parker]

Yeah. So we heard that recently in his second term, President Trump has been comparing himself, as you previewed, to these three sort of who the philosopher Hegel described as great men of world history, Napoleon, Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great. And we asked the White House, is he an unlikely, unexpected scholar of Hegel? And we were sort of laughingly dismissed and told, no, absolutely not. One person said Trump had been handed an essay or a poem. They weren't quite sure what that mentioned these three men. Another person said that last year, Trump had attended a speech at his golf course where the speaker had sort of placed Trump in the scope of history. Mentioning some of these men also Genghis Khan, maybe he got the idea there, this person suggested. But ultimately, what is happening, as it was described to us, is even if Trump doesn't understand the nuances of these three particular leaders, and certainly not of Hegel's theory of them as world great men, it's this idea that he is now talking about himself as the most powerful person who ever lived or that he could. Could be the most powerful person to ever live. And you are sort of seeing this in what we, tongue in cheek, but also quite seriously dubbed the YOLO presidency. This is someone who is unburdened by ever facing voters on the ballot. Again, we're seeing sort of a largeness and freeing of ambition. And you see that in everything from the war in Iran and some of this foreign policy adventurism that I think voters didn't expect from this president. And then his passion and instinct for physical, tangible tributes in his honor, whether it's remaking the nation's capital in his image or some of these other things you previewed just before I came on his visage, on coins and on the passport, and having a UFC fight in honor of America's 250th birthday, but he's actually having it on his birthday on the cell phone of the White House in what is essentially, regardless of what he claims, a tribute to his own grandiosity.

[Eamonn]

Yeah. I mean, speaking of his own grandiosity, let me play for you what he said today about his ballroom when he was basically talking about the difference between using onyx and marble. Tick a list.

[Donald Trump]

Now, right outside, we have something that's on time, on budget, actually ahead of time, and had a budget depending on finishes. You know, finishes is a big difference between marble and onyx in price, but it's right on budget, right on time, and that's built to the highest standards of security. No units on top. No hotel built on top where an elevator comes right down through the middle of it. It's a tough location. That's a tough location.

[Eamonn]

I'm trying to think of, like Alexander the Great or Napoleon talking about elevators and units and hotel elevator shaft on hotel units.

[Ashley Parker]

Yeah. I mean, some of this, in talking to people and just having covered President Trump since 2015, is this is just core to his DNA. He is a developer blasting his name and, you know, big, bold gold letters on buildings is something he's always done. But there is a difference between putting his name on Trump Tower that he helped develop in, you know, on Manhattan's fifth Avenue and putting his name on what is now the Trump Kennedy Center. Those are very different things. And aides reported to us that they can recount times in meetings in the Oval Office, in meetings about politics and business. At Mar A Lago, Trump sort of glimpsing something outside of his window, and they might be having a political discussion or a policy discussion and him stopping the meeting to go outside and instruct, for instance, the Mar A Lago gardeners on some etiquette of pruning or on a placement or a material for the tile. So what we saw today is, is not that dissimilar, but voters are signaling that they believe it is inappropriate in the Oval Office from the leader of the country.

[Eamonn]

Yeah. So the real quick question I have for you, Ashley, is will all of this materialize into a desire to stay into power beyond 2028? He's already selling 2028 merchandise. He's alluded to it. People like Steve Bannon in his inner orbit have talked about finding a way to keep him on the ballot or getting him on the ballot. We all know that is not legal, that is not constitutionally permissible. But have you gathered any insight from your reporting that his mind has shifted from this, let's make this all about me and how grandiose I am to actually usurping power and trying to upend our democracy?

[Ashley Parker]

Again, it's a great question. So it has been described to us what he is doing. This is almost a subconscious attempt at legacy building. He's not very introspective, Steve Bannon. And people around him are very serious about the effort to subvert the Constitution to allow him to run for a third, third term. But by all indications, Trump himself, though he says that and jokes about it, as of now at least, it's very much a troll. The last thing I'll say briefly is there is an irony because all whether or not he tries to stay in office, and again, no indication that is his current plan. The irony is that this is not going to help his party and Republicans stay in office in the midterms.

[Eamonn]

All right, Ashley Parker with some very important reporting. Ashley, thank you. It's great to see you as always. And still ahead, Donald Trump's crackdown on media takes a new turn as Jimmy Kimmel stands his ground. But first, new exclusive details on the bizarre legal case now against former FBI Director James Comey. All right, now to an Ms. Now exclusive, new details on Trump on the Trump DOJ's indictment of former FBI Director James Comey. The DOJ is Accusing Comey of threatening the president over this photo, a picture of seashells spelling out 8647 Ms. Now's Carol Lennigan, Fallon Gallagher finding the case was on the, quote, back burner at the DOJ until Attorney General Pam Bondi was fired earlier this month. Now, after Bondi's ouster, the case, quote, shifted into overdrive as Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche sought to win Trump's appointment to the job permanently and the Seychelles case gained new steam. Comey has vowed to fight it, while many legal voices on the right have also criticized the case. Take a listen. I must be in a parallel universe to be talking about the shell artwork of James Comey. There's no crime here. I think the case is frivolous. Just showing the picture is going to be a weak case in terms of a threat. I think Comey's people will move to dismiss it, that it's protected speech. And I think that motion will be granted. It would very likely be viewed as protected speech if it was the basis of a criminal indictment that Al would have a hard time standing up in court. Comey is one of a growing number of Trump critics. The DOJ has pursued a widening pattern that experts say is an abuse of power by a president fixated on revenge. Joining me now is Barbara McQuade, former U.S. attorney and Ms. Now legal analyst. Barbara, it's great to have you on the show as always. Your reaction to this case now being resurrected after Bondi's firing to coincide with Todd Blanche seeking this permanent appointment.

[Barbara McQuade]

Well, it's no secret, Eamonn, that Donald Trump was dissatisfied with the work of Pam Bondi. We saw that direct message to her in September about the need to go after some of his enemies, including James Comey, and that ultimately she was fired in part because of her failure to secure convictions against his enemies whom he had vowed to go after. And here we are with Todd Blanche in the acting role, clearly within under consideration for the permanent job. And here he goes. He's ready for the job. You know, Donald Trump has long yearned for his Roy Cohn. And it seemed that Pam Bondi was not up to the job. And it seems that Todd Blanche is eager to show off for the boss that I'm willing to be your Roy Cohn. Here I am. Look no further. And so bringing this case, it's very aggressive, it's ruthless, but it's also clumsy and baseless.

[Eamonn]

The Ms. NOW reports finds that Bondi had pushed her team to basically keep pursuing the charges against Comey. For lying to Congress, concluding that the case was significantly stronger than this case. And yet the merits of both cases seem to be very, at best, nebulous.

[Barbara McQuade]

Yeah, both of these cases were completely frivolous, in my opinion. I mean, first with regard to the false statements before Congress, by now it is time barred by the statute of limitations. They tried to get it in just under the statute of limitations in September, and then when that failed for the invalid appointment of the interim attorney general, that case was out of luck. But even besides that, it was bootstrapping a prior statement that Comey had uttered that was out of the statute of limitations. It wasn't clear whether they were talking about the same people. That case, too, was destined to fail. This one. You know, if they were really concerned that Jim Comey had threatened the life of the President of the United States, he would have been arrested the next day, not almost a year later. And so this really has the feel of an effort to just pin something, anything, on Jim Comey just to show the President that we are up to the job.

[Eamonn]

So what does that say about the mindset within the DOJ among the rank and file, not necessarily the politically appointed ones like Pam Bondi and potentially Todd Blanche, but those who actually have to go to trial if this does ever make it to trial.

[David Litt]

Yeah.

[Barbara McQuade]

So I don't know if this case gets assigned to some true believer who thinks that they can win this case or a career public servant. And the Justice Department is still filled with many wonderful nonpartisan prosecutors who care about the rule of law. But this case is never going to make it to trial, as we just heard in some of those segments. I think there are two very strong bases for a motion to dismiss here. One is that this is First Amendment protected political speech. That would be one basis. The other is selective prosecution. That is a claim that's often raised and rarely succeeds. Because to succeed, what you have to show is not only that you were charged for an arbitrary reason, but that others similarly situated were not charged. And that's almost always impossible because how do you show that somebody else committed the same crime and yet were uncharged? But here we have got a plethora of examples of people who have posted 8647 or 8646. You need only do a quick search on Amazon to find T shirts and caps and bumper stickers all saying 8647. And yet I don't see anybody charging Jeff Bezos. We know that Jack Posobiek also posted 8,646, no charge against him. And so I think that on that basis we are going to see a successful dismissal as a selective prosecution.

[Eamonn]

And who of course, can forget Donald Trump posting a picture of Joe Biden hogtied in the back of a pickup truck that a lot of people thought was also an act of violence? He was never prosecuted for that. Barbara McQuaid, always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Thank you.

[Eamonn]

Up next, free speech at risk as Trump tries to get late night host Jimmy Kimmel fire.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Eamonn]

New in Donald Trump's crackdown on freedom of speech today making an explicit threat against comedian Jimmy Kimmel asking when Disney would fire him and that it, quote, better be soon. That following a new FCC investigation of ABC and Disney with their broadcasting licenses at risk. Risk. Bloomberg reporting, quote, although the license review order cites potential workplace discrimination as the reason for scrutiny, people familiar with the matter said it was precipitated by President Donald Trump's plea for ABC to fire late night host Jimmy Kimmel. FCC chair Brendan Carr was asked about the investigation today. Watch. And then will the Jimmy Kimmel will that all or any speech issues be part of this review is solely restricted to dei. The license, the early license review, our DEI review is going to continue and it's going to be part of that. Disney, as part of the filing is going to have to come in and demonstrate that they've been operating in the public interest. Now, that's not exactly a clear denial as critics believe that Trump is using the levers of government to punish Kimmel. You'll recall this is Kimmel's second clash with Trump and the FCC after he was suspended and then reinstated last fall after public outcry both times because Trump didn't like Kimmel's jokes. But Kimmel is not backing down. Our first couple, Donald and Melania, who lately have seemed closer than ever. And I like to think I played a part in that. Can we maybe get him one of those bricks that locks him out of his phone between the hours of midnight and 6. Now, this latest Kimmel conflict, part of Trump's broad attempts to crack down on freedom of expression in this country. As the Atlantic reports, quote, in marshaling regulatory power against ABC and Disney, FCC Chair Carr has given the White House another way to extend control over the media. All of this as a new global report shows that press freedom in the United States is declining. The annual World Press Freedom Index from the organization Reporters Without Borders is now ranking the United States at 64, sliding down seven spots. Their report citing Donald Trump's leadership as a key factor in their ranking, turning his, quote, repeated attacks on the press and journalists into a systemic policy. Joining me now is David Litt, former speechwriter for President Obama and author of the Word Salad Substack. And Christina Greer, political science professor at Fordham University. It's great to have both of you with us. So the last time, David, that Donald Trump went up against Jimmy Kimmel, he lost. There was a moment of pause, no doubt. There was a lot of pressure that was leveled against ABC and Disney by the affiliates and others. But in the end, we can say for now, freedom of speech prevailed. Jimmy Kimmel was reinstated. How do you see it playing out this time?

[David Litt]

Well, I don't want to make predictions, especially about the future, but what I will say is it feels like with the Iran war going poorly, the Trump administration has decided to open a second front and redo the war with Jimmy Kimmel. And I think that this is a president who always needs grievance. He always needs someone to bully. But I think what's really interesting this time is Disney last time around caved immediately, and then they kind of uncaved after a public outcry. We'll see what happens. But this time around, Disney is not, as Trump is, complaining about firing Jimmy Kimmel right off the bat. And so what you see is maybe, maybe a sign that some of these corporations are starting to weigh this out and say, hey, this is more bluster than we thought. And the cost of cooperating with this guy is actually higher than the cost of going along with it.

[Eamonn]

Yeah, for the most part, Christina, the companies have been going along with Trump. When you think of, like, the settlements that have been made, when you hear Pete Hexith talking about he can't wait for Larry Ellison to own CNN so he can get favorable coverage of the Iran war. So how do you read this moment in time? The US is sliding down that press freedom index, 64, sliding down 7 from last year. But at the same time, we're seeing this, as they described it, systemic policy to attack the media.

[Political Commentator]

Right. So really quickly, and it's Israel and US War on Iran, like. And I think that that's part of the issue that this administration is really frustrated with, because so many Americans are recognizing there is no leadership and guidance in this administration. Trump 2.0 is just off the rails. And so to David's point, a lot of Americans are saying, you're focusing on all the wrong things. You're attacking Jimmy Kimmel on ABC and demanding essentially shakedowns. What about my gas prices?

[Eamonn]

Right.

[Political Commentator]

What about housing? What about what's going on at the grocery stor? This misguided 2.0 administration is really, I think, frustrating a lot of Trump supporters. And if we think about the three branches of government, we've seen Trump sort of take over the executive in a dictatorial sense. We've seen him bully Congress into essentially a feckless institution, even though it's unified government. We've seen the courts essentially acquiesce and give him whatever he wants. So if we have this sort of fourth arm, that's the media, he wants to take over that as well. And I think slowly but surely he's eroded quite a bit. We've seen CBS acquiesce many ways, you know, lots of other institutions. But I think some are saying we can't give you everything you want because this is. It's actually quite ridiculous that we would fire someone for a joke that was made well before an incident on Saturday.

[Eamonn]

Yeah, he didn't even know about the incident, obviously. And so that was the whole issue here. Stephen Miller hosted. Sorry, Stephen Miller's wife, on her podcast yesterday, hosted Brendan Carr. And it's interesting to see how the FCC has evolved here. I don't think most Americans knew about the FCC a couple years ago, and yet somehow has become weaponized by Donald Trump in his kind of pursuit of controlling the media. Take a listen to what he said. Look at the changes over the last

[Justin Wolfers]

couple of years that I think are attributable to Trump running at the fake news media. You've got NPR defunded, you've got PBS defunded. We've got CBS having new ownership. CNN is getting new ownership.

[Eamonn]

So it's a big ship to turn, but I think things are heading in the right direction. So he's saying the quiet part out loud, right? I mean, I guess for us in the media who are following this, it is an attempt by the administration to take control of the media one way or the other. Brendan Carr, the chair of this FCC Commission, came out and explicitly said what this was all about.

[David Litt]

Yeah, well, first of all, let me say, it's amazing to me that what used to be the party of small government is now the party of, you know, who the chair of the Federal Communications Commission is. Right. Like that is government interference on a level.

[Eamonn]

They're also buying spirit airlines and taking control of that. But that's another issue.

[David Litt]

Well, I think it's the same issue, actually. All of these things coming together where Trump and his administration say, we want government control, we want our hands in everything. And as you pointed out, they're not even ashamed to admit it. They're not even pretending they're doing something different right now. And I think that is, on one hand, it is incredibly dangerous. And on the other hand, I do think that something that gives me a lot of hope is the American people don't like it fundamentally. We don't want government in our lives in that way. And interestingly, it's not just Republicans or Democrats who are saying so most Americans feel like that.

[Eamonn]

So a very important point, most Americans are saying they don't like it. The question is, what guardrails do we have? What should be done to make sure that another Brendan Carr, if we survive this one, if our democracy survives it, if our media landscape survives, what he's doing with Donald Trump, comes out on this, the other side with a stronger, more vibrant, more independent media landscape.

[Political Commentator]

Yeah. I think if and when the Democrats take control of the House and possibly even the Senate, because of the draconian policies that we're seeing out of the Trump administration, they're going to have to figure out ways to shore up and secure certain institutions. We've realized during the first and second iteration of Donald Trump, so many things that we thought were hard and fast, laws even, or rules are just gentlemen's agreements. They're norms that most people followed, but he has thrown them out of, of the window. And so when so many Democrats and independents are clamoring for a party that is not just against Donald Trump, but a party that wants to do something, these are some of the things that Democrats can say they're going to do to protect our media, to protect the flow of information, to make sure that we can't have another Republican or whomever come after Donald Trump and try and take away civil rights and civil liberties.

[Eamonn]

You brought up the way the Trump administration is potentially trying to shift the narrative away from the Iran war. Take a listen to how he talked about it in the Oval Office today. The Iran. Onwards. Watch.

[Donald Trump]

I see you in that stupid cnn, which I only watch because you have to watch a little Bit of the enemy. So I watch it for a very short period. But you have to, you know, you have to be smart. And if you see cnn, you think they're winning the war. If you read the New York Times, it's actually seditious, in my opinion.

[Eamonn]

So him calling the media enemy of the people is nothing new. Him referring to it there as the enemy is nothing new. But using the word seditious to describe what the New York Times is doing seems to be yet another threshold that has been crossed.

[David Litt]

Yeah, I mean, we were here on Saturday night during the coverage of that, and in the wake of that assassination attempt, you saw, predictably, Trump and other Republicans saying we've got to tone down the rhetoric and saying it's Democrats who are demonizing their opponents. Now, I agree political violence is wrong, and the rhetoric that encourages it is bad. But to call media organizations like the New York Times seditious just a few days after telling people to tone down the rhetoric. We're not surprised by the hypocrisy anymore, but we should still be outraged by it.

[Eamonn]

Yeah. And it has also happened on a night that we were celebrating the First Amendment and the right of media to be able to speak truth to power in this country. How dangerous of a moment is this that we're.

[Political Commentator]

Well, I mean, I think with Republicans, every accusation is a confession. I mean, all we have to do is just go and look at the president's truth, social posts, you know, whether it's Robert Mueller passing away and celebrating that or how he talks about Democrats on a consistent basis. We've seen a rise in political violence when, you know, lawmakers were killed in Minnesota. He didn't lower the flags. He didn't go to the funeral. He barely even made a phone call arguing essentially, well, what's that gonna do? Right? And so we've seen his behavior consistently and we know that Republicans are following suit and so fully, even with, you know, gerrymandering, even with sort of Republicans essentially trying to steal elections in their own special ways, state by state. Hopefully the voters will understand that we need to sort of have this pendulum swing back just quite a bit.

[Eamonn]

We'll see. Christina Greer and David Litt, thank you so much. Great to have both of you on. We'll be right back after a quick break. That does it for me. Luckyland Casino where free welcome surprises greet you on signup and daily delights Wait every return spin with gold coins or collect sweeped coins. There's magic every day. Join now. Your first surprise is ready. Luckyland Casino where the magic happens. No purchase necessary. VGW Group Void were prohibited by law. CTC's 21 plus.