"No Kings" Organizers Estimate 7 Million Protestors Against Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary: "No Kings" Organizers Estimate 7 Million Protestors Against Trump

The Beat with Ari Melber (Guest Host: Melissa Murray) | October 21, 2025

---

Episode Overview

Guest-hosted by Melissa Murray in Ari Melber's absence, this episode reports on the unprecedented nationwide and global “No Kings” protests against Donald Trump and his administration. With nearly 7 million marchers worldwide, the movement signals massive public resistance to Trump’s controversial exercise of power, anti-democratic maneuvers, and threats to civil rights. The episode features interviews with legal experts and politicians, analysis of court rulings, exclusive clips from former Special Counsel Jack Smith, and in-depth conversation about Congressional dysfunction, the shutdown, and challenges to voting rights.

---

Main Topics & Key Segments

1. The “No Kings” Protest Movement

Timestamp: 01:03 – 03:30

• Massive Peaceful Demonstrations
  • Organizers report nearly 7 million people marched peacefully in cities and towns nationwide and worldwide.
  • Example: “The NYPD said over a hundred thousand people gathered in New York City alone without a single arrest.” — Melissa Murray [01:23]
  • Protesters used creative tactics (e.g., spelling out “no kings” with their bodies in San Francisco).
• Central Message: Resistance to authoritarianism and defense of constitutional governance.
• Vocal Public: Protesters, including veterans and grandmothers, insisted on constitutional principles, directly rejecting Trump’s claims of monarchical power.

Quote:

“No one paid me to be here. My rage is free and well deserved.” — Protester, read by Melissa Murray [01:57]

---

2. Response from Trump and Court Decisions

Timestamp: 02:32 – 06:38

• Trump’s Reaction

  • Trump dismisses protests as inconsequential, touts AI-generated videos depicting himself as a king, and claims unchecked presidential powers using the Insurrection Act.
  • “I was willing to die and lost a leg in a foreign country fighting for their rights. There's no way I'm bending the only knee I have left for a king here in America. By the way, I'm not a king.” — Trump [02:23]

• Court Intervention & Authoritarian Moves

  • Two Trump-appointed judges on the 9th Circuit authorize Trump to deploy the National Guard to Portland, counter to a lower court’s restraining order.
  • Legal context:

    “As a matter of law, that claim of unprecedented power is false.” — Melissa Murray [03:03]

• Expert Analysis

  • David Litt: Warns that Trump’s court-packing strategy is bearing fruit and that vigilance is necessary.
  • Molly Zhang Fast: Notes the administration’s messaging struggles in the face of peaceful, constitutional protests.

Memorable Moment:

“Even if you want to rule as a king, you still gotta get a buy-in from the people.” — David Litt [07:29]

---

3. AI, Messaging, and Resistance

Timestamp: 07:28 – 09:08

• Trump’s Use of AI:
  • Criticized for sharing surreal AI videos of himself cast as a king.
  • Molly Zhang Fast: Calls it “AI flailing” and highlights the administration’s desperation without protester violence to exploit.
  • Personal story: Molly attended a protest in Red Bank, NJ, describing it as more like a celebration than an insurrection.

Quote:

“After the January 6 protest, they stormed the Capitol. After the no Kings protest... we all got Italian ice.” — Molly Zhang Fast [08:38]

---

4. Congressional Inaction & Shutdown Drama

Timestamp: 09:22 – 28:55

• Congress Absent:

  • Rep. Mike Johnson keeps Congress on recess, delaying the swearing-in of Democrat Adelita Grijalva, a move linked to the continued withholding of the Epstein files.

• Election and Term Limits:

  • Trump floats the idea of staying in power indefinitely in AI-generated content, despite the 22nd Amendment.
  • Experts see this as testing the boundaries of public and legal resistance.

Quote:

“The limiting factor in the Trump administration is what can we get away with.” — David Litt [11:41]

• Brendan Boyle (Congressman, D-PA) Interview

  • Critiques the disenfranchisement of ¾ million Arizonans due to Grijalva’s delayed swearing-in.
  • Asserts that Speaker Johnson is acting at Trump’s behest to avoid releasing the Epstein files.
  • Highlights the anomaly: “Every time this year that a Republican has been elected in a special election, they have been sworn in, even if it was a pro forma session.” — Brendan Boyle [25:00]

• Shutdown Political Fallout:

  • Even Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene is pushing for Congress to reconvene, indicating Republican discomfort with ongoing dysfunction.

Quote:

“People are generally against dysfunction.... They want to see their government work.” — Brendan Boyle [28:40]

---

5. Legal Warfare: Selective Prosecution & DOJ Integrity

Timestamp: 13:25 – 20:23

• Vindictive Prosecutions:
  • Trump’s DOJ faces accusations of selective, retaliatory prosecution against critics including James Comey, Letitia James, and John Bolton.
  • Maya Wiley explains the legal challenges and the abnormal nature of the DOJ’s actions, including firing and replacing US attorneys to secure desired indictments.

Quote:

“If there's ever been a strong case for vindictive prosecution, this is the case.” — Maya Wiley [15:34]

• Whistleblower Testimony:
  • Former DOJ lawyer Erez Ruvaney recounts being fired for refusing to falsify a brief, suggesting a pattern of abuse within Trump’s DOJ.

Quote:

“They did everything they did... in violation of his due process rights. What's to stop them if they decide they don't like you anymore?” — Erez Ruvaney [14:55]

---

6. Jack Smith Speaks Out: Rule of Law Under Threat

Timestamp: 31:04 – 37:25

• Jack Smith Exclusive Clips
  • For the first time, former Special Counsel Smith publicly condemns the administration’s attacks on the rule of law, warning of incalculable damage.
  • Emphasizes that “process shouldn’t be a political issue” [31:35] and encourages Americans to defend democracy in any way they can.
• Pardons as Defiance of Law:
  • Smith criticizes Trump’s mass pardons for January 6th rioters as an explicit betrayal of law enforcement.

Quote:

“If you pardon 1,500 people ... you are taking the side of criminals against police.” — Summary of Smith’s remarks by Will Saletan [35:45]

• Non-Partisanship
  • Smith aims to set a standard for all Americans—Democrats, independents, honest Republicans—to defend nonpartisan rule of law.

---

7. Voting Rights and Supreme Court Alignment with Administration

Timestamp: 38:00 – 44:39

• Voting Rights Act in Peril:
  • SCOTUS considers weakening Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, which protects minority voting power.
  • Janae Nelson (NAACP LDF) argues the stakes could not be higher for multiracial democracy.

Quote:

“I think the results would be pretty catastrophic.” — Janae Nelson [39:12] on consequences of striking Section 2

• Coordinated Conservative Attacks:
  • Discussion highlights the synergy between the administration’s actions and the court’s rightward jurisprudence (e.g., rolling back affirmative action, targeting DEI efforts).
  • Justice Kavanaugh’s idea of a “shot clock” for civil rights is challenged as a legal invention without basis.
• Racial Double Standard:
  • Trump’s proposal to favor white refugees shapes a haunting contrast: “How considering race in the context of helping white refugees is okay, but... remedying a racial gerrymander is suddenly impermissible under the Voting Rights Act?” — Melissa Murray [43:39]

---

8. Closing: The Call to “No Kings” and Defending Democracy

Timestamp: 44:51 – End

• Governor J.B. Pritzker at “No Kings” Rally
  • Calls on Americans to resist tyranny with courage, not fear and silence.
  • Inspiring closer:

    “Democracy requires your courage. And tyranny depends on good people doing nothing. It requires us to accept the unacceptable ... but tyranny also fails when ordinary people refuse to cooperate, when they say ‘No Kings’ and they mean it.” — Gov. J.B. Pritzker [44:57–45:24]

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• "No one paid me to be here. My rage is free and well deserved." — Protester [01:57]
• "Even if you want to rule as a king, you still gotta get a buy-in from the people." — David Litt [07:29]
• "After the no Kings protest, I went to—we all got Italian ice... If we were terrorists, we were not very terrifying." — Molly Zhang Fast [08:38]
• "The limiting factor in the Trump administration is what can we get away with." — David Litt [11:41]
• "If there's ever been a strong case for vindictive prosecution, this is the case." — Maya Wiley [15:34]
• "People are generally against dysfunction. ... They want to see their government work." — Brendan Boyle [28:40]
• "Democracy requires your courage. And tyranny depends on good people doing nothing." — Gov. J.B. Pritzker [44:57–45:24]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:03 – 03:30: Overview and peaceful nature of “No Kings” protests
• 03:32 – 06:38: Trump’s reaction, court actions, and comment on growing authoritarianism
• 07:28 – 09:08: Impact and symbolism of AI-generated pro-Trump “king” videos
• 09:22 – 28:55: Congressional recess, shutdown details, and Rep. Boyle interview on procedural obstruction and voter disenfranchisement
• 13:25 – 20:23: DOJ’s selective prosecution and integrity crisis
• 31:04 – 37:25: Jack Smith exclusive footage and analysis of attacks on rule of law
• 38:00 – 44:39: Supreme Court, voting rights arguments, and the racial double standard
• 44:51 – end: Closing inspiration at the “No Kings” rallies

---

Summary Conclusion

This episode offers a sweeping survey of the mounting resistance to Donald Trump’s anti-democratic maneuvers, highlighting the mass mobilization for liberty and the Constitution. With sharp legal insights and voices from both advocacy and Congress, the “No Kings” protests are cast as a turning point—an emphatic reminder that the defense of democracy lies with the people as much as with the courts or Congress. The show ends with a stirring call to action for courage, solidarity, and vigilance—echoing the protest’s slogan and spirit: “No Kings.”

Transcript

[Donald Trump]

Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected and each one more.

[Rob Lowe]

Expensive and more complicated than the last.

[Donald Trump]

It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform.

[Rob Lowe]

Doesn't Odoo sound amazing?

[Donald Trump]

Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple.

[Rob Lowe]

Efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price.

[Donald Trump]

Sign up [e-mail] that's O-O-O.com Are you a parent looking for an independent, flexible and tuition free school in Oregon? Evergreen Virtual Academy offers a dynamic and.

[Melissa Murray]

Tuition free public education with Oregon certified teachers for PK through 12th grade students.

[Donald Trump]

Your student gets a laptop, live class sessions, and the ability to chart their own unique path. Plus in person events and social activities all year. When school has no walls, learning has no limits. Learn more and enroll now.

[Rob Lowe]

Evergreen Virtual Academy evergreenvirtual.org welcome to the Beat.

[Melissa Murray]

I am Melissa Murray in for Ari Melber and we begin tonight with the massive no Kings protests that took place all over the country and the world this weekend. Organizers say that nearly 7 million marchers turned out in big cities and small towns to protest Donald Trump and his policies. And notably, the protests were peaceful. The NYPD said over a hundred thousand people gathered in New York City alone without a single arrest. In San Francisco, Americans used their own bodies to spell out the message of the day, no kings. And while Trump did his best to downplay and undermine the event, protesters were prepared to speak for themselves.

[Donald Trump]

I think it's a joke.

[David Litt]

We live by the Constitution.

[Donald Trump]

I guess it was paid for by Soros and other radical left lunatics.

[Melissa Murray]

No one paid me to be here. My rage is free and well deserv.

[Donald Trump]

The demonstrations were very small. There's over 2,000 of these things going.

[Brendan Boyle]

On right across the country.

[Donald Trump]

I think it's going to be bigger than 5 million. The people who are whacked out, those are not representative of the people of our country. I was willing to die and lost a leg in a foreign country fighting for their rights. There's no way I'm bending the only knee I have left for a king here in America. By the way, I'm not a king.

[Melissa Murray]

Trump's claim that he doesn't see himself as a king may be contradicted by his actions over the weekend. He reposted two different AI generated videos that depicted him as a king. Now, of course, the President's authoritarian ambitions go beyond AI social media, his immigration Crackdown is at the heart of the protests against him and it continues to alarm experts. ProPublica reports, quote, current and former national security officials describe the legions of mass immigration officers operating in near total anonymity on the orders of the president as an unfettered and unaccountable national police force. Trump is also claiming that he has, quote, unquestioned power under the Insurrection act to deploy troops anywhere he wants. And his next target appears to be San Francisco, California. I should note that as a matter of law, that claim of unprecedented power is false. But just hours ago, two Trump appointed judges on the United States Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit ruled that the president can deploy the National Guard to the streets of Portland. This overturns a lower court's restraining order. All of this despite the fact that most of Trump's claims of unfettered power have actually been rebuffed by other courts. And his monarchical ambitions are being rejected by millions of Americans in the streets. Joining me now to discuss all of this and kick it off tonight is David Litt, former speechwriter for President Obama, and Molly Zhang Fast, special correspondent for Vanity Fair and contributing opinion writer with the New York Times. David, can we Talk about this 9th Circuit ruling? This one's unusual because usually the courts have pushed back. At least the lower courts have pushed back, certainly on the claims of power to deploy troops to American cities for ICE enforcement or in some cases, what looks like more federalized domestic law enforcement. What's your take on what this means, given what we saw this weekend?

[Donald Trump]

Well, Melissa, first of all, thank you for having me on. And I'm also aware you know a lot more about the law than I do. But I'm gonna offer a broader view, which is the 9th Circuit used to be histor liberal. And part of what we are seeing and part of what Democrats were warning about in the last Trump term was this takeover of the courts. Trump and his allies boasted about flipping the courts. This is what happens when you have these flipped partisan, packed courts.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, so this is actually an opinion where two of the judges, the two in the majority, were actually Trump appointees. And there is one judge, a longtime 9th Circuit judge, Susan Graber, who has dissented from this ruling.

[Donald Trump]

Right. And I think, you know, I don't mean to say that every Trump judge will always support Trump. We have seen a lot of Trump appointed judges reject the president's, as you put it, monarchical ambitions. But at the same time, I think that one of the things that Democrats, all of us, worried about Trump's king Like agenda need to be keeping our eye on is also not just what's happening now, but the continued attempt to pack the courts over the next couple of years. It's one of the reasons the Senate is going to be so important in the midterms. We have to put a stop to some of these nominations.

[Melissa Murray]

Right. So this 9th Circuit ruling, Molly, is actually very interesting because it focuses on the President's claim that he needs to be able to protect an ice facility in Portland, Oregon. We saw the protests over the weekend. We saw protests earlier in Portland. A lot of frogs. Doesn't seem to be a lot of violence. What do you make of this idea that the National Guard is needed because the protests are out of control and are basically endangering public safety.

[David Litt]

So this is one of the problems that Trump has had this whole time, and he's had it with the no Kings protest. Right. Like, you saw them nervous before it happened. You saw the Treasury Secretary, Scott Benson, being like, no checks, no kings. Like, if you, you know, they were like, democrats want to keep the government closed for the no Kings rally. I don't even know what that would have to do with anything. But there was like, a lot of anxiety about it. And I think the fact that it ended up being 7 million people and maybe even a little more, there are some estimations that it might be more and that they were peaceful and that they were not radical and that they were people talking about just the Constitution. Like, you can't get more. You know, that's what we're all here for. So I think it was problematic for them. And you even saw they couldn't figure out how to message it. And this White House, very good at messaging. And all of a sudden you saw Trump saying they're radicals, and then you saw someone else saying they're all old and someone else said they were all white. I mean, okay, like, you know that none of those are disqualifying. And so I do think this is really. I think this has rattled them. And then you put that with those polls that show him underwater on everything. And, and look, you know, even if you want to rule as a king, you still gotta get a buyout, buy.

[Melissa Murray]

In from the people.

[David Litt]

Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

So let's talk a little bit about how rattled they might have been this weekend. I know I was rattled by some of those AI videos that the President posted. I don't think I'd ever seen anything quite like that. I hope never to see anything again. But what do you make that the President first started out saying like, this was just an anti American demonstration, which, as Molly says, was belied by the fact that they literally transported the Constitution down the streets in some cases. And these were grandmas and veterans and everyone coming out. Why then the pivot to this AI generated video of the president in a cockpit with a crown on doing all kinds of things.

[Donald Trump]

Well, first of all, if you're hoping to never see videos like this again, I think your hopes are going to be not. Not achieved, I'm sorry to say. They seem to be all in the.

[Melissa Murray]

They're dashing everywhere. Okay.

[Donald Trump]

But I think part of the reason they're never going to say, oops, we were wrong, that's just not how the Trump administration operates. You will see them flail. And I think this is AI flailing. And part of that is, as you're saying, this was not just peaceful, it was patriotic. I was at a no Kings protest in Red Bank, New Jersey. So one of the. It was not huge. It was in a big city. It was like a celebration of the.

[Melissa Murray]

Liberal bastion of New Jersey. Right.

[Donald Trump]

I mean, and the other piece of that is, you know, I think about this is a president who described January 6 as a day of love and tried to say that no Kings was a day of hate. And I thought it was funny because after the January 6 protest, they stormed the Capitol. And after the no Kings protest, I went to. We all got Italian ice, right? It was like, this is just. If we were terrorists, we were not very terrifying. And I think that meant that the Trump administration, which would have loved some violence or something to point to, they were left with nothing. So they typed something into ChatGPT and tried to do their best.

[Janae Nelson]

Yeah.

[Melissa Murray]

Not sure they succeeded in doing their best. Maybe not the best people, maybe not the best AI. But, Molly, I want to play you a little bit more from many of the people who turned out this weekend. Let's take a look.

[Donald Trump]

Everything this regime has been up to is anti American.

[Melissa Murray]

We've got another election just a year.

[Maya Wiley]

From now, which is the midterms, and we could actually change the House and.

[Melissa Murray]

The Senate with the midterms.

[Donald Trump]

Congress makes the laws, not the president.

[Melissa Murray]

Let's think about that point. Congress makes the laws, not the president. Where is Congress right now? Do you think Congress will be bestirred after all of this to get back in the driver's seat and maybe exercise some of its prerogatives that it is thus far ceded to this president?

[David Litt]

Congress is on vacation, Right? Mike Johnson sent them home again. If you look at their calendar, it Is set. Stunning. Yeah. And he's keeping them out for any number of reasons. He does not want to swear in the newest member of Congress. 151st signature on the discharge petition for the Jeffrey Epstein files, which again, you know, he's making that such a thing. Which ultimately this administration is never going to release the files. But okay, I do think we're seeing a lot of, there's like, I think they have to do popular stuff. Even if they wanna be autocrats, they still need some buy in from the, from the voters and they're not getting that. And remember, like Trump is not on the ticket again. Whatever they say, he's constitutionally not able to run again. I mean, he may try and they may do something, but at this point, the people who are on the ticket in 2026 are on vacation. So like those guys, you know, trying to like re gerrymander so that he doesn't lose. You know, if you re gerrymander enough, you dummy mander. And if there's enough of a Democratic wave, then a lot of these Republicans who think they have safe seats may not.

[Melissa Murray]

Right. So David, let's talk about something Molly just said. This prospect that the President is term limited. The 22nd Amendment says he is term limited at two terms, but he has been floating on some of this AI generated social media this weekend that maybe he'll stick around until the year 90,000, like it beggars believe. But what do you think? Is he merely floating this? Is he just being hyperbolic or is this a way of testing the waters?

[Donald Trump]

I think Trump is always testing the waters. The limiting factor in the Trump administration is what can we get away with.

[David Litt]

Right.

[Donald Trump]

And so often there's this kind of ironic way of starting out. Right. It's just a joke. You know, we, it's tongue in cheek. We're all in on it. That's how, you know, not respecting the results of the 2020 election started. In some ways, Trump sort of said, oh well, if I win. And is he joking? Is he not joking? Well, we found out he wasn't joking, but maybe he found that out too.

[Melissa Murray]

Right?

[Donald Trump]

You just kind of keep pushing and pushing and pushing. I do think one of the things that struck me is even among people who, who I know, and also, you know, when, when you've seen polling on it, people who support Trump, many of them are like a third term. No, that's not how America works. Right. You don't have to be like a deep lover of American civics to be like no two terms.

[Melissa Murray]

That's you just have to read right in the Constitution.

[Donald Trump]

It's very basic and people are used to that. So that idea, it might be fine in again, another piece of AI content. I do think that if he ever tried it, especially if, as Molly said, he's this underwater, I don't think that he's going to find it as easy as he might think.

[David Litt]

He's also the oldest person to ever be elected president. I'm just saying I know where we heard that before. I know we're not allowed to talk about his age because that's only for Biden, but he is actually quite old.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Molly Zhang, fass with the deep truth. Thank you, David. Thank you, Molly. Coming up, a top Democratic lawmaker on what critics are calling the GOP's Epstein shutdown. Plus, new video from former special counsel Jack Smith airing for the first time right here on the beat. But first, James Comey's opening salvo against Trump's bid to target his political opponents. All of this right after the quickest 90 second break.

[Donald Trump]

Foreign.

[Melissa Murray]

Donald Trump and his former FBI director, James Comey are facing off in court today. Comey's legal team filed a motion to dismiss the criminal case brought against him by the Trump doj. Comey's team alleges that the case should be dropped because it is, quote, vindictive and selective prosecution based on Trump's, quote, personal animus toward Comey. Comey's team also filed another motion today arguing that the appointment of Trump's former lawyer, Lindsey halligan, as the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia is invalid. They write, quote, the defective appointment of Halligan was made in defiance of the law and for the sole purpose of securing an indictment grounded in retaliatory animus days before the relevant statute of limitations extended expired. And they emphasize that the indictment is, quote, fatally flawed. All of this comes amidst criminal prosecutions against multiple Trump critics that have emerged in recent weeks. Now, a former DOJ lawyer, Erez Ruvaney, is speaking out for the first time about what he says are abuses of power by the Trump Justice Department. He says he was fired after he refused to lie and sign a brief that called Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the man the Trump administration mistakenly deported to El Salvador, a terrorist.

[Rob Lowe]

That is not factually correct. It is not legally correct. That is, that is a lie. And I, I cannot sign my name to that brief. They did everything they did to him in violation of his due process rights. What's to stop them if they decide they don't like you anymore.

[Melissa Murray]

Joining me now is Maya Wiley, the president and CEO for the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and a former civil prosecutor with the Southern District of New York. All right, Maya, what is the likelihood that this case against Jim Comey is going to be dismissed based either on selective prosecution or the defective appointment of Lindsey Halligan?

[Maya Wiley]

You know, that's impossible to say because as you know, Melissa, the judge has so much discretion there. But I have to say, if there's ever been a strong case for vindictive prosecution, this is the case. It is the case not only because Donald Trump made so many statements about wanting to be vindictive, vindictive about using the language that is vindictiveness and wanting and demanding publicly and on social media, a prosecution, including against James Comey. And not only James Comey, including Attorney General Tish James, but the fact that he actually fired a sitting U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia in order to get it because they said they didn't have sufficient evidence.

[Melissa Murray]

And installed an insurance lawyer.

[Maya Wiley]

And installed an insurance lawyer and then rushed to get this indictment where she had to go and do it herself. You know, you and I both know that that is highly unusual. It's not usually the person sitting at the big in the big chair who's the one going to the grand jury, it's the career prosecutors. She had to do it herself.

[Melissa Murray]

It is unorthodox, though not necessarily unprecedented. Sometimes there have been lone US Attorneys who signed these things. I think what makes it a little compromising, if you will, is that the U.S. attorneys, the rank and file prosecutors, had written a very extensive memo explaining that they didn't think that there was probable cause.

[Maya Wiley]

It's the totality of the circumstances. You're right, it's not that one thing, but it's all of them put together. And then when you read the indictment, I mean, it is so thin, it looks like a rushed indictment. And it's very little clarity about what is actual false.

[Melissa Murray]

I mean, it says what the false.

[Maya Wiley]

Statement was, doesn't say why it's false.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, like, it's not the first indictment. So we've seen there's been an indictment against New York Attorney General Letitia James. There has since been an indictment of John Bolton. One of the motions in this case said that the charge against Comey should be dismissed because, quote, a last minute retaliatory charge after a torrent of personal invective by a president who expressly sought charges regardless of the facts. If that is a successful argument for Jim Comey, Is it also going to have spillover effects in the cases against Letitia James and John Bolt?

[Maya Wiley]

Well, look, I think each case is going to stand or fall on their own merits, including, because I don't necessarily want to say the John Bolton indictment is the same.

[Melissa Murray]

No, it's very different.

[Maya Wiley]

They're very different cases. I would say what there's. There is more similarity between Comey and Attorney General James in the sense that they're very thin. They're on these things that you don't typically and wouldn't typically see indictments on. They're hard to win. There are a lot of facts in each. They're different cases, but there's a lot of facts that are a matter of public record in each case that make you scratch your head and think, what's the actual evidence here that's going to get to a conviction at trial? And so I say that because. And they. And they have, of course, the same vindictiveness, but there is differences between the threat. So. And judges, judges, judges. As we know, there's a lot of discretion on the part of judges, and a lot of them like to go to trial and have a jury decide.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, speaking of judges, someone who had a lot to say about judges was Arez Ruvaney, who had a lot to say also about his colleagues at the Department of Justice or his former colleagues. What do you think? That interview with 60 Minutes where he essentially spilled all of the tea, what does that say about the state of the DOJ right now?

[Maya Wiley]

It says what we've all been seeing in real time and suspecting. And what he said is, yes, don't let them gaslight you. It is exactly what you thought. This is not an administration. A Department of justice administers justice. That means it's neutral. It gathers the facts, it investigates them and makes neutral decisions about the cases. Doesn't mean we always agree with them, but certainly they're not motivated by anything other than the evidence in these cases. And what we were seeing with Brego Garcia and others was. And you could see it in the lineup of the facts, it's like, and a judge said, wait, wait, wait, no. And those planes, bring those planes back. And what they say is, not only did they know, not only were they told in advance, you might ignore the judge, ignore the court. If they tell you to do something, then you have the good Ryan Goodman also demonstrating. He's like, we actually did the check. And there were 35 cases where we found the same type of behavior. And we saw so many seasoned career attorneys from the Department of Justice, quit their jobs, leave jobs that we knew were a big part of their career and who they are. And that really spoke volumes, right?

[Melissa Murray]

That was a study that Maya referenced by my colleague at nyu, Ryan Goodman, about the Department of Justice. Maya, thank you so much for shedding light on some of this. Later, we have exclusive new recordings of Jack Smith speaking out about Trump airing for the first time on this show. Also, I will talk to the lawyer who just argued at the Supreme Court about the conservative effort to empower Trump and to roll back voting rights. And there is new heat on GOP Speaker Mike Johnson over the Epstein files and more.

[Donald Trump]

When are you going to swear in Representative Elect Adelita Graham?

[Rob Lowe]

As soon as we get back to legislative session when Chuck Schumer allows us to turn the lights back on.

[Donald Trump]

Why haven't you done it already?

[Melissa Murray]

Want to show your cat just how much you love them? Start with Wellness Pet Food for meals that turn love into well being that your cat can taste and you can see if your kitty loves real shreds of chicken and fish. Or maybe they prefer culinary crafted recipes packed with protein with vet recommended scientifically proven nutrition and high quality ingredients in wellness recipes. Every picky kitty can find a meal with taste, texture and variety. They adore wellness pet food feed well, be well.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe and basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J.

[Brendan Boyle]

Fox.

[Rob Lowe]

There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe please and listen. Wherever you get your podcasts, you open.

[Maya Wiley]

The fridge, there's nothing there.

[Melissa Murray]

So what's it gonna be? Greasy Pizza?

[Maya Wiley]

Sad Drive Thru Burgers?

[Melissa Murray]

Dish by Blue Apron is for nights like that. These are the pre made meals of your dreams. At least 20 grams of protein. No artificial flavors or colors. No chopping, no cleanup, no guilt. Keep the flavor, ditch the subscription. Get 20% off your first two orders with code APRON20 Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more. Critics are calling it the Epstein shutdown. It's been 20 days since the shutdown took effect, officially making it the third longest in U.S. history. Because Speaker Mike Johnson has refused to come back into session to bring the House back into session, something important hasn't yet happened and that is the swearing in of the Newest elected member of the Democratic caucus, the Democratic congresswoman from Arizona, Adelita Grijalva, would be the final vote needed to compel the Department of Justice to release the Epstein files. And today, Johnson was pressed about the delay.

[Donald Trump]

When are you going to swear in Representative elect Adelita Grahama?

[Rob Lowe]

As soon as we get back to legislative session, when Chuck Schumer allows us to turn the lights back on.

[Donald Trump]

Why haven't you done it already?

[Rob Lowe]

Because this is the way the institution works. I will administer the oath on the court.

[Donald Trump]

You could swear in tomorrow, right?

[Rob Lowe]

I mean, no, not tomorrow. No, no, we. We couldn't. We wouldn't.

[Brendan Boyle]

There.

[Rob Lowe]

There was an exception for two Floridians earlier in this Congress, but the reason was they were duly elected. They had a date set. They flew in all their friends and family and the House went out of session, so.

[Donald Trump]

So if she flies in friends and.

[Rob Lowe]

Family, then we don't have a date set.

[Melissa Murray]

We don't have a date set. Meanwhile, the shutdown is affecting everything from nuclear facilities to courts to airports and air travel. Joining me now to discuss all of this is Congressman Brendan Boyle, Democrat of Pennsylvania and the ranking member of the Budget Committee.

[Maya Wiley]

Welcome.

[Brendan Boyle]

Great to be with you in person.

[Melissa Murray]

Oh, likewise. I'm glad to have you here. I have so many questions. Let's start with Adelita Grijalva, who was elected overwhelmingly by the people of her district to replace her father, Raul Grijalva. She's not been sworn into office. She can't operate her office without being sworn in because she doesn't have access to funds. She can't pay staff, she can't even access the building, and she's forced to wait on line with tourists to enter the Capitol. This strikes me as anti Democratic and maybe even a species of election interference since it's preventing the people of Arizona from being represented in Congress. Why aren't we talking about it in this way?

[Brendan Boyle]

I'm glad you brought it up because you know this is not just about Jeffrey Epstein and who has an interest in making sure those files don't come out. And it's not even so much about Democrat, Republican, although that's part of it. What about the 3/4 of a million people who live in her district in Arizona who now are going, continuing to go unrepresented in the people's house. So we should really put them front and center. It is a disgrace that they are right now not being represented in the United States Congress. Are we a representative democracy or not? She should be sworn in immediately. Frankly, she should have been sworn in a month ago. And just to correct something Speaker Mike Johnson said on that clip, every time this year that a Republican has elected has been elected in a special election, they have been sworn in, even if it was a pro forma session. So his excuse that they can't swear her in right now, they don't have a date. Date certain and she hasn't flown up family members. It's a bizarre explanation.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, so there seems to be a fair bit of obfuscation about why she hasn't been sworn in. Some people are speculating it's because she would be the deciding vote to prompt the Department of Justice to release the Epstein files. Why is Mike Johnson so scared of releasing the Epstein files?

[Brendan Boyle]

You know, he is in a bind because the reality is that if Donald Trump tomorrow says that he's against Mike Johnson remaining a speaker, Mike knows that's the end of his speakership almost that very day. Donald Trump has made it clear both privately and publicly that he does not want, for whatever reason, the Epstein files released. So Mike Johnson is really doing the bidding of the person who was responsible for making him speaker and keeping him in that office.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, so we are now going into at the third week of the shutdown. Are there any signs of movement from your colleagues on the other side of the aisle?

[Brendan Boyle]

Well, I have to say it's pretty remarkable. Every previous shutdown, and sadly, I've been through a few of these, although all of the previous ones were under Donald Trump the first time he was president pattern, we it's now happened a number of times in the 10 and a half years I've been in Congress, every single one of them, Donald Trump was president. And for every single one of them, Republicans controlled at least one of the two legislative bodies in Congress. But for all those previous examples where there is a difference, we were in session pretty much nonstop, including weekends, in order to attempt to reach a resolution. And the shutdown period here, Mike Johnson, in part because of the Jeffrey Epstein files, has sent us on this extended paid vacation. It is wrong and it is not fall break. Fall break. It is not doing the people's work well.

[Melissa Murray]

So you seem to be getting some support from the other side of the aisle. A strange bedfellow, if you will. Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene has called on Speaker Johnson to return the chamber to normal session. Do you think she's going to be alone in this or will other Republicans join her to return the House to the people's work?

[Brendan Boyle]

Well, I've noticed the last couple weeks I increasingly find myself agreeing with Marjorie Taylor Greene. So I, I, believe me, it's head spinning to me as well. But she has been outspoken on this matter as well as a few others. There may be, you know, some implications for 2028 there and what she plans to do. But the fact that she knows that that's where the public is moving is to me a leading indicator.

[Melissa Murray]

No, that's a great point. The public is tired of this and they want it to end. And she certainly seems to know where the winds are blowing.

[Brendan Boyle]

People are generally against dysfunction. They want, whether they're ideologically conservative or liberal or somewhere in between, they want to see their government work. And I don't think there's much of a constituency in this country for just shutting things down and making it not work.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, cheers to that. I'm not shutting things down. Congressman Boyle, thank you so much. Still ahead, the Republican push to roll back voting rights now in the hands of the Supreme Court and its conservative supermajority. We'll have a special guest to talk about that, but first we have brand new video of former special counsel Jack Smith speaking out. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio.

[Rob Lowe]

Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about.

[Donald Trump]

My latest obsess, relationship issues and bodily ailments.

[Rob Lowe]

With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

[Melissa Murray]

You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of AD, free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer Details Apply.

[Rob Lowe]

What is comfort? Comfort is a mattress that feels soft and supportive, made without harmful chemicals. Comfort is being able to invest in your well being and still having money left for the things you love. That's the Eco Organic Mattress from Avocado. Thoughtfully made, surprisingly affordable and trusted by families and with flexible financing from a firm, organic comfort is more accessible than ever. Shop the Eco Organic Mattress [e-mail] and save 10%. Avocado dream of better did you know.

[Janae Nelson]

39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with greenlight. Infinity's driving reports monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.

[Donald Trump]

Then they got this guy deranged Jack Smith, a lunatic. And they put him in because he was the meanest prosecutor you could find.

[Melissa Murray]

Former special counsel Jack Smith has long been on Donald Trump's enemies list. He is not only the meanest federal prosecutor, he is the only federal prosecutor to successfully indict a U.S. president. And he did it twice. During his tenure as special counsel, Smith's public appearances were infrequent and only undertaken to present facts. But now Smith is speaking out and speaking his mind, most recently with our friend Andrew Weissman.

[Donald Trump]

Once we get in a position where we start talking about maybe not following court opinions we don't like, we are lost the attacks on public servants, it has a cost for our country that is incalculable. The idea that politics played a role in who worked on that case or who got chosen is ludicrous. Process shouldn't be a political issue. People have to think about what matters to them and if they believe in things like the rule of law, take that commitment and find another way to be part of the solution.

[Melissa Murray]

In addition to that conversation, we now have exclusive new footage of Smith which we are airing on this show for the first time. It's from a speech that Smith gave at George Mason University on September 16th of this year, during which he emphasized again the rule of law.

[Donald Trump]

What I see happening is the Department of Justice today in brutality and energy where the rule of law is written. Friends of the Christian do not have to worry about following the same law that the president follows. One of my concerns is that we have had the rule functions and it's been secret so well.

[Melissa Murray]

Smith also laid out how Donald Trump is methodically working to erode checks and balances within the United States government.

[Donald Trump]

He wanted to discover what's what was for common goals and allow active corruption to happen. One of the first things you do to get rid of any tax together next thing you might do a wonderful voice and get rid of nonpartisan in political career bosses. I want to make crystal clear how is precisely unprecedented.

[Melissa Murray]

Joining me now to discuss all of this is Will Saletan, writer at the Bulwark who first obtained that Jack smith video from September 16th. Will, thanks for joining us. Why do you think Jack Smith is all of a sudden found his voice?

[Rob Lowe]

Well, it's not clear to me why Smith wasn't speaking for as long as he did. He in January issued his final reports on his investigations. He presented all of the evidence, pulled it all together of crimes by Donald Trump, disappeared from the scene. He's emerging now in the wake of a series of attacks by the administration on the rule of law. And I think what Jack Smith is doing is he's putting together almost an indictment or a report similar to what he did in the case of Donald Trump. But it's not about Trump and it's not partisan. It is about the assaults by this administration and by this administration in particular, not Republicans in general. This administration on the rule of law in all of its facets. And we've been discussing some of them, the selective prosecutions, the selective pardons, and there are many more that he enumerated.

[Melissa Murray]

So you also mentioned the pardons, and again, like, I want to think about how that fits into this, this indictment, if you will, of what the administration is doing. So it's not just these attacks on the rule of law. It's not just the erosion of checks and balances. He also didn't mince words about Donald Trump's efforts to pardon the January Six rioters. How does that fit in to all of this? And what does it say that he specifically talked about those pardons?

[Rob Lowe]

Well, the pardons are, for most of us, the, the most obvious case of a defiance of the rule of law. Right now we have a Republican Party that is trying to present itself as the party of defending the police, defending law and order, and that the Democrats are the party of crime. And part of what I think Jack Smith is getting across in his message is that if you pardon 1500 people, if you pardon or commute all the people who committed violent crimes on January 6th against law enforcement. And this is a point he explicitly made in the speech at George Mason, in the talk at University College London. You are, you are taking the side of criminals against police. But he makes the point that you are taking the side specifically of criminals, violent criminals who side with the president who gave them the pardons.

[Melissa Murray]

So we have heard a lot over the course of this administration. We're only nine months into it, but we've heard a lot about how this administration is targeting those that Donald Trump considers his political enemies. We've seen the indictments of Jim Comey, Letitia James, and most recently John Bolton. If you're Jack Smith, you know, you are on that list. Are you worried that the next indictment has your name on it?

[Rob Lowe]

Oh, it could be. Smith is, you know, basically anyone who, who prosecuted Donald Trump or who investigated Donald Trump is now on a Donald Trump target list. I think it is notable that Jack Smith is not trying to reciprocate Trump's blatantly partisan, unlawl like pursuit of his enemies. Smith is trying to model something much broader. He's trying to say this is not about party. This is not about being a hitman. And some of the cases that he enumerated in his speech at George Mason. The case of Donald Trump selectively trying to get Eric Adams, a Democratic mayor, off the hook by conservative prosecutors who the Trump administration ousted because they would not go along with a corrupt deal to let Eric Adams off the hook. The signal chat in which Trump administration officials blatantly violated national security and the Trump administration is not prosecuting them. That is not a partisan matter. That is a matter of national security. So there are cases like that that Jack Smith talked about. They are not Democrat versus Republican. And I think his fundamental message is all of us, Democrats, independents, honest Republicans need to stand together in defense of the rule of law against this particular administration.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, well, Salatan, thank you so much, and thank you for sharing that video.

[Rob Lowe]

Thank you.

[Melissa Murray]

Up next, I will talk to a lawyer who stood up for voting rights before the United States Supreme Court. That's up next. This weekend's massive no Kings rallies wasn't just about ICE enforcement. It also featured direct criticism of Donald Trump about civil rights and voting rights. We're concerned about protecting voting rights.

[Donald Trump]

What about leadership, mentoring?

[Rob Lowe]

Okay.

[Donald Trump]

It minimizes what folk of my race grow in terms of opportunity. We come from all over the world, you know, and we believe in something. So I think it's important to defend.

[Melissa Murray]

That, making sure that everyone has those fundamental public rights. Rights activists point to multiple efforts that would reduce the power of black voters. And Trump has been pushing these efforts. Redistricting across multiple states, a move that many say would threaten minority representation. And now the Supreme Court's conservative supermajority is poised to gut what remains of the Voting Rights Act. The New York Times reports that the case could, quote, hand the House to Republicans. The case centers on Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act. An oral argument. Justice Kagan asked how elections would be affected if Section 2 of the Voting Rights act is weakened.

[Donald Trump]

Were Section 2 to cease to operate in the way that you just described, what would the results on the ground be?

[Janae Nelson]

I think the results would be pretty catastrophic. If we take Louisiana as one example, every congressional member who is black was elected from a VRA opportunity district. We only have the diversity that we see across the south, for example, because of litigation that forced the creation of opportunity districts under the Voting Rights Act.

[Melissa Murray]

Joining me now is the lawyer you just heard from arguing before the Supreme Court, Janae Nelson, president and director counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. Wow, what an argument. What an amazing performance. Can we get into brass tacks? We always talk about these particular court decisions. I think what we focus on less is the way in which the court's decisions actually complement what is happening in the administration. There's actually a surprising alignment between the ultra conservative decisions that this court is dishing out and what this administration is doing, whether it's dismantling DEI and saying that race and gender can't be used in any kind of federal programs that results directly from the Court's decision to dismantle affirmative action in higher education. So it's almost like they are working in concert. Why don't we talk about it this way?

[Janae Nelson]

Well, as we all know, they should not be working in concert. There is such such a thing as separation of powers. And we expect that the Supreme Court should be operating objectively independently and not.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, I mean, I'm not suggesting that they're in cahoots in way, but like they're both doing the same kind of conservative plays just in their respective lanes and they align in a lot of ways. And Voting Rights act is a perfect example.

[Janae Nelson]

No, I think that's right. I think that's right. We also know we've been waiting for the John R. Lewis Voting Rights Advancement act to, you know, advance in Congress and that hasn't happened. So literally all three branches of government have been problematic in terms of.

[Maya Wiley]

Yeah.

[Janae Nelson]

The progress we need to see.

[Melissa Murray]

So one of the things that came up repeatedly during the oral argument was this idea that we are a post racial nation to some degree. So Justice Brett Kavanaugh, for example, suggested that civil rights laws and Maybe even the 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution should have time limits or already have implicit time limits. Let's take a listen.

[Donald Trump]

This court's cases in a variety of.

[Rob Lowe]

Contexts have said that race based remedies.

[Donald Trump]

Are permissible for a period of time, sometimes for a long period of time, decades in some cases, but that they should not be indefinite and should have an endpoint.

[Melissa Murray]

Looking through the voting rights. Where is the shot clock on civil rights?

[Janae Nelson]

Yeah, it's not there. And, and it's.

[Melissa Murray]

This is an invention.

[Janae Nelson]

It's an invention and it's not there for a reason. Congress did not want it to be there. Congress passed the Voting Rights act and had certain provisions that expired at different times and needed to be reauthorized by Congress. That was Section 5, which we know the Supreme Court disabled in 2013, but then it had Section 2, and it still has Section 2 as a permanent provision. And Congress could have made it something that needed to be renewed, and it didn't. So even as a basic matter of statutory interpretation, you look at the statute, Congress knew what it was doing when it said this provision is permanent.

[David Litt]

Right.

[Melissa Murray]

So this idea that these provisions are no longer necessary, that time's up on civil rights stems from an idea that we've seen before at this court, this idea that there's been tremendous racial progress and we don't need these remedial measures anymore. The same day that you defended the VRA at the Supreme Court, the New York Times reported, quote, trump is considering an overhaul of the refugee system that would favor white people. The proposals would transform a government program aimed at helping the most vulnerable people in the world into one that gives preference to mostly white people who say they are being persecuted. This also followed Politico's reports of Republican young Republicans using racist text chains and whatnot. Can you help me understand how considering race in the context context of helping white refugees is okay, but using race to remedy a racial gerrymander in Louisiana is suddenly impermissible under the Voting Rights Act?

[Janae Nelson]

I wish I could help you there, but I can't because it makes absolutely no sense. It's utterly inconsistent, as is the idea that you can use race or someone's language or the low wage job they may have as the basis for a stop. So the way that the Court has used race itself has been internally inconsistent and illogical. And unfortunately, it's rarely used in a way that actually promotes continued progress, continued advancement, and continued adherence to our constitutional ideals. I hope that this case is different because I believe that the importance of our democracy, this multiracial democracy that's really hanging by a thread at this moment, compels them to be the court to be consistent with its prior decisions. And it's, it's embrace of the Voting Rights act, which has been a 40 year old project.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Janae Nelson, we will expect a decision from the Court in June. Thank you so much for joining us. We will be right back with just one more thing.

[Rob Lowe]

Tyranny requires your fear, your silence, and your compliance.

[Donald Trump]

Democracy requires your courage. And tyranny depends on good people doing nothing. It requires us to accept the unacceptable, to rationalize the irrational, to normalize the abnormal.

[Rob Lowe]

But tyranny also fails when ordinary people.

[Donald Trump]

Refuse to cooperate, when they say no Kings and they mean it.

[Melissa Murray]

That was Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker at the no Kings rallies this weekend, along with millions of Americans. That does it for me. Ari is back tomorrow.

[Donald Trump]

Hey, everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name and we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts.