← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
NYT: Epstein Turmoil Drove WH "Freakout"
00:41:05
MS NOW's Ari Melber reports on a bombshell report from The New York Times detailing how the Epstein scandal caused an internal "freakout" at the White House. The New York Times' Michelle Goldberg and Veteran Journalist Vicky Ward join.
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- [00:00]
Chris Hayes
Artificial intelligence is moving very, very fast and it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it isn't. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes and as part of my podcast why Is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.
- [00:16]
Vicky Ward
We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is
- [00:20]
Ari Melber
real and what's not real.
- [00:21]
Chris Hayes
Why is this happening? The AI Endgame, a special mini series from Ms. Now. Start listening today wherever you get your podcasts.
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Ari Melber
Welcome to THE Beat. I'm Ari Melber. We are continuing covering that breaking news out of the Middle east, the United States launching another round of strikes against Iran. This is just during the last hour, CENTCOM indicating that they were additional self defense strikes against multiple targets in Iran at the Commander in Chief's direction. They also indicated that the strikes are, quote, in response to what they call Iran's unwarranted continued aggression. We have a lot more coming up on multiple topics. But what's important about this new story is Defense Secretary Hegseth has said the US Would basically be negotiating with bombs. Now later this hour we're actually going to follow on this story and the discussion of how the administration is approaching this ceasefire and war situation with one of the top lawmakers involved in all of this, the number one Democrat in the House, leader Hakeem Jeffries. So that's a big guest who will cover this and a lot of domestic topics as well. But we begin with what many are calling a bombshell investigative report out of the New York Times detailing the long running issues in the Epstein scandal which caused an internal freakout at the Trump White House. This reporting is actually through the process that we've sometimes seen before where journalists who work at an outlet on a daily sort of beat also work on longer form projects and books. And so the reporting is, we should mention, part of an upcoming book by several of the top sort of Trump White House reporters and D.C. reporters on the Beat. And they in this process actually say they spoke to over a thousand sources. So this is more than even just one or two big articles. This is drawing off of all of that. And it reports how the Trump White House officials and administration looked at the Epstein scandal as so serious. The top officials, let's take this for the, for the viewers in full so they can read it. Top officials were gathering in the White House situation room. That is of course the secure bunker where classified high stakes national security matters are Discussed for contrast. It's not a place where you deal with political domestic spin. It's where this historic moment occurred, where President Obama and Vice President Biden were tracking along with the national security team, the ongoing operation to take out and kill Osama bin laden. That was 2011. That's a situation room, at least when used by presidents who take it seriously. The time snowing, the Trump officials used it to try to gain measure of control over a very different kind of crisis threatening to engulf the presidency. They continue to use the situation for those discussions. The Times reports that by summer 25, the Situation Room itself had become basically inseparable from the Epstein crisis. This is more than a matter of staging. It sort of tells you about the use, abuse and misplaced priorities. According to critics of how they dealt with the Epstein crisis, Trump's vice president was the most vocal about releasing the Epstein files, reportedly arguing that even unsubstantiated allegations and anecdotes about Trump should go out. This is interesting because it takes you inside. What was this rolling process? The Times reporting that if the administration published them first, it would demonstrate good faith. It would take the oxygen out of the conspiracy theories. They thought now that tidbit could be significant considering how Trump's top DOJ official was flip flopping over the files released. Bondi was saying this a month, month after taking office,
- [03:53]
Hakeem Jeffries
the DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen?
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Michelle Goldberg
It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that.
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Ari Melber
Bondi had infamously asserted falsely that she had the client list on her desk. That was quickly undercut by the facts. And then the DOJ under her. This was a Bondi DOJ memo, had to admit there was no client list. They didn't uncover evidence, they said, for an investigation against any uncharged third parties. That, by the way, remains controversial as the House continues to hear witnesses who think there are people, including powerful men, that maybe should be charged. And then, as you see here, they claimed there was no further disclosure of the Epstein files that would be appropriate. Which stoked outrage, disbelief and anger from many, from survivors to independent legal experts, to, of course, the people Trump had promised would get the files. The MAGA base.
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Hakeem Jeffries
How come you redact some people and you don't redact other people? Like, what is this? This is not good. None of this is good for this administration. It looks terrible. It's the way they've handled the scandal
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Hwan Thomas
has been so bad Completely agree.
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Vicky Ward
This is self inflicted.
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Ari Melber
Current DOJ under Pam Bondi is covering up crimes, very serious crimes.
- [05:16]
Hakeem Jeffries
It looks terrible. It looks terrible for Trump when he was saying that none of this was real. This is all a hoax. This is not a hoax.
- [05:25]
Michelle Goldberg
There is something there and it's being covered up and the President blessed it.
- [05:31]
Ari Melber
That's just from some of the people who'd been historically aligned and friendly to Trump on this, to say nothing of survivors, independent experts and others. And so this Times report drops today at a period where Trump has again failed to stem the interest in Congress, including congressional Republicans. We continue to hear from witnesses yesterday and today. What you're looking at on your screen is from that same time period because this was lying to your own people. Those binders have nothing important in them, but they were labeled Epstein files. Trump lying to his base and feeding an awareness on the right that he was part of the COVID up. The person who promised the transparency was actually misusing the government to keep the secrets of the pedophiles and lying to his very base administration, feeding information to those conservative personalities thinking that it might work. According to the Times, in this new account, Bondi and that approach, which clearly wasn't working by any measure, not for policy transparency and not for politically stemming the crisis, was infuriating. The number with the FBI, Dan Bongino, who'd actually rode this issue on his podcast, sort of to his national acclaim. And so the new report today says Bongino was erupting at Bondi during one meeting, yelling at her. You blanked this thing up from the start. The way you've been talking about this, that dumb blanking charade with the Epstein files, the there on my desk nonsense, all the promises to the folks out there. Now I'm reading from a new account. The Times does not publish something like that in quotes unless they really think they have it. Now, maybe Bongino was happy to confirm it because he has ever since then tried to tell his supporters and others the problem was the White House in Bondi, not him. But whatever the reasoning of these sources, this is a very serious report about the level of meltdown and rancor over the Epstein secrecy. Now fast forward to today. Bongino's out. He was, according to the article, thinking about trying to leave that day, but stayed on to be helpful to Trump. Bondi, of course, is out partly over this Epstein problem. Bongino, of course, has gone back to where he makes more money and maybe finds a better life schedule. On his show. He said this about the files I want to see the files.
- [07:58]
Hakeem Jeffries
Folks.
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Ari Melber
I said don't let it go. I meant it.
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Jacob Soboroff
We got elected, we looked at it.
- [08:02]
Ari Melber
The file was not what was in there, was not what we thought would be in there. It's not going to satisfy many, and that's fine. But, folks, I'm not going to spend the next two years talking about it. This administration got you the information. Not going to spend the next couple years talking about it. You just spent the last couple years talking about it. I'm only smiling at the political convenience of it. Not, of course, the underlying seriousness. But that's the question. Who really cares about the seriousness of the issue and who just tried to use and abuse it? A White House spokesperson telling the Times Trump's claims that he was innocent in Epstein matters, that that's long been the case, that they've always said that President Trump, they say, has done more for Epstein's victims than anyone before him. Fact check false. Now, I will tell you that prior administrations in both parties also failed transparency in the victims. That's according to what we've learned in our reporting and we've heard many victims and their advocates say that. So if you're looking at this from a party standpoint, both parties have overseen DOJ and FBI during periods that have failed the victims. But the upside down claim that this one was better is completely false and something that kind of a lot of people agree on. I mean, I just showed you Rogan, Tucker, Megan, survivors, experts, nobody thinks they've done a good job on this. As for those in Trump's corner, the Times reports that by late summer, it was apparent to the president's age that the Epstein saga was not the same as the countless other crises they'd weathered. To their great surprise and disquiet, quote, Trump's old tricks of deflection and denial were not working. Didn't work then, didn't work until today. And while Trump and Vance had hoped that when the stuff finally came out, even over Donald Trump's opposition and when Congress made them release it, that by then it would be a bad news cycle and eventually go away. And yet here we are today discussing not only this exhaustive account from the Times, but the witnesses that have come forward, yesterday, Epstein's longtime secretary and today Bill Gates, shows that Congress, even on a bipartisan basis, continues to pull the threads on this massive scandal. I want to bring in Michelle Goldberg, columnist for the New York Times, an MSNBCow analyst who has written about this extensively, and Vicky Ward, a veteran journalist and author of the Substack Vicky Ward investigates. Michelle, this is the news side of your paper with a lot of exhaustive details. What else jumped out to you? And what about that point that I landed on because I thought it was striking the times, concluding from talking to this many people that unlike other scandals, this one never went away and the lying did fail.
- [10:47]
Michelle Goldberg
Right. So, and just to be clear, I mean, I'm on the opinion side. We're totally separate from the news side. But just so this is from what I've read. I mean, one of the things that jumped out to me is that they were actually talking about a pardon at one point for Jillian Maxwell. Right. I mean, I think that I'm not sure if that conversation itself happened in THE Situation room, but we've been wondering how she ended up in this relatively cushy prison that she was not supposed to be eligible for. It doesn't exactly give us answers. But they were talking about kind of offering her some sort of incentive to give an interview that would take the heat off Donald Trump. And sure enough, she gave an interview that meant to take the heat off Donald Trump with Todd Blanche, and now she's in a much better place. The other thing that struck me is that these were very meticulously reconstructed conversations among a very a relatively small inner circle. And so they've all got to be looking at each other now thinking, who is, you know, who can I trust? Right. Like, who is going to repeat the details of this conversation? And, you know, I think that we can now see in retrospect to your last point, that this was the beginning of a crackup in this coalition that is ongoing and that has been exacerbated by this debacle in Iran.
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Ari Melber
Hmm. Vicki?
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Vicky Ward
Well, what stuck out to me was to your last point, that the previous excerpt of Maggie and Jonathan's book also put J.D. vance in a very good light. I mean, of everyone in the room in this excerpt, J.D. vance, I would argue, is the one coming out on the side of good. He's the one saying we've got to release everything, no matter if it's false. We've got to put it all out there. Although I thought his idea of having Tucker Carlson interview Gillette Maxwell was particularly terrible.
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Ari Melber
But that was a striking detail in the story.
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Michelle Goldberg
Well, and also a striking detail because is is Tucker Carlson in a position to schedule either of these two parties? Right, right.
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Vicky Ward
No, I mean, I mean, so wrong on all sorts of level. I can't imagine that Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyers would have let her sit for that. Completely different.
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Ari Melber
Although a lot of people would watch an interview like that.
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Vicky Ward
Yes, of course. But I still think, you know, aside from the sort of hilarious incompetence. But if the stakes weren't so serious, I mean it's sort of. The incompetence of the scenes are staggering. The big question, Rem, what is the there there around Trump? Because the reality is that in the Epstein files there isn't any real there there about Trump. None of the victims who I've talked about in 25 years of reporting this have ever pointed a finger at Donald Trump.
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Ari Melber
And it seems, well, let's be precise. Cuz I understand the point you're making. In fairness, there is not evidence to suggest that criminal misconduct and he hasn't been accused of that by the standards of any publicly traded company or the accountability that others have faced or the old days of campaigning. Being this, associated this closely with this figure, including in a period where there was a lot of reporting that he knew and emails that Trump knew and they were on the plane, is something that goes to a person's judgment. I think I take your point as a journalist, he's not accused of criminal misconduct, but a heck of a lot of politicians have had their careers ended over less. Sure than that.
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Vicky Ward
But I would also say though that compared to the other email chains that we've seen where people have had to step down from their jobs, you know, general counsel of Goldman Sachs, chairman of a big law firm, that there's no email traffic between Trump and Epstein. That sort of nails him as anything
- [14:35]
Ari Melber
what you ask him criminally. Right, but spending a lot of time on the plane and other things, I
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Michelle Goldberg
mean, and then he denied that he'd ever been on the plane.
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Vicky Ward
Well, right.
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Ari Melber
He has a reason to say, oh, I wasn't close with this person and I wasn't on the plane. And then evidence comes out in a manner that it never usually does. I've covered stories like this. You never see this amount of internal government evidence. I've never seen a law passed like this to release this much evidence. And it turns out, oh, you were lying about going on the plane. You were on the plane many times and you were at the house and you gave public quotes about how he likes very young women. Which again I'm being very precise, does not mean that he's alleged of criminal conduct. But yes, other candidates have fallen for less. I wanna give you time, as we say around here, to let you finish, but I did wanna draw that contrast.
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Vicky Ward
But one thing that gets lost is what Epstein, it would seem from the emails, thought Donald Trump's crimes were were actually not sexual. He writes this long email to himself that he was going to send to Michael Wolff at the beginning of 2019, and he says this is what it's all about. And he basically accuses Trump of money laundering, tax evasion. It's all to do with this property that Trump bought in Palm Beach. And Epstein clearly thought Trump didn't have the so where did the money come from? He then flips it a few years later for a lot of money to Russians. So he's accusing him of money laundering. These things have not been proven. But that, in Epstein's mind, was the
- [16:02]
Ari Melber
gotcha for Donald Trump or the leverage. I mean, the problem with blackmail and embarrassing people is sometimes you're throwing stuff around to blackmail them, which is why most types of blackmail are basically illegal, which is separate from the veracity of the claim I mentioned. There's more threads being pulled on in Congress, including Bill Gates testifying. Our panel stays. Michelle and Vicki are here. We'll be back in 90 seconds with more
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Jacob Soboroff
Thursday, June 25th. Join Rachel Maddow, Ally Velshi and Jen Psaki in Philadelphia for a dynamic evening. Ms. Now live presents we the People, America 250. Get tickets at Ms. Now, America 250. Today,
- [16:46]
Ari Melber
the Epstein story has been roaring back in Washington. I'm here with Michelle and Vicki as we continue our conversation. Michelle, there has been this effort by the House Committee to continue to get witnesses, some of whom have spoken to the government in other capacity, like doj, others who haven't. And so we're following that. Bill Gates is an individual who hasn't been accused of criminal conduct here in our standards, we talk about that distinction, but was in the files repeatedly and has had to deal with responses and questions about that. He went in for the first time today. We don't have, of course, the whole testimony. I just want to show viewers some of him coming in and what lawmakers said. I'm glad to be here voluntarily to testify, to help with the committee's work. Do you regret your friendship with Dr. Epstein? Overall, I'm just a little disappointed that Mr. Gates is not as candid and forthcoming as he can be.
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Hakeem Jeffries
He's a little combative.
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Michelle Goldberg
He admitted that he knew of Mr. Epstein's reputation. He admitted that he knew that he
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Ari Melber
had been convicted of sexual crimes.
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Michelle Goldberg
But ultimately, in his words, he viewed this narrow relationship as being an acceptable means to access wealthy donors.
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Ari Melber
Michelle, your view of this piece and what does it mean or matter that Congress continues to take testimony from a variety of witnesses.
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Michelle Goldberg
Well, I mean, I think, again, first, that it's just not going away right then, that, you know, they keep thinking that one more turn of the screw will be the last one. But also, there's still. I mean, even with these millions of documents, there is still a lot that we don't know, particularly about the way that Jeffrey Epstein exercised his leverage over the people in his network, which is a question that pertains to this administration, because several people in this administration, not least the president, but not only the president, were very much part of Jeffrey Epstein's network.
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Vicky Ward
Yeah, I mean, I was struck. Apparently Bill Gates told Congress today that what Jeffrey Epstein was trying to do was blackmail him. He had information about his illicit extramarital affairs, and that that's what Jeffrey Epstein was sort of trying to use against him and to keep. He wanted to stay in the orbit of Bill Gates when Bill Gates had sort of dumped him. And though I don't know if you read, Ari, there was a very good piece in the Wall Street Journal about this woman, Melanie Walker, who was a protege of Epstein's, who, between Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein, they sent out to date Prince Andrew, then to date Steve Sinofsky, the number three at micro, and then finally to date Bill Gates. And there are now texts and emails that show this was all the direction of Jeffrey Epstein, which does raise questions. Why was he so desperate to get to Bill Gates? What was.
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Ari Melber
You know, money was part of it for sure.
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Vicky Ward
For sure. But the anger that he felt and the drive, once, I think they stopped talking to each other around 2014, 2015, to keep going, to send a woman into. I mean, it's real desperation.
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Hakeem Jeffries
Yeah.
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Ari Melber
I mean, Michelle, I've read a lot more of the files than I ever thought 10 years ago. This is how I'd be spending all my time. And one of the things that comes through is that it seems that Mr. Epstein was aware that times were changing and the way he got away with what he knew he had done wasn't working as well. And there was an almost at times frantic effort to ensnare and pull in more powerful people, which is a separate observation to the fact that there's some very bad things were already being done by various men. So that's also true. But then you saw him try to reach farther. You saw this with certain politicians that he didn't have a big history with, and he was trying to bring them in. And you get the feeling that he really thought if he just had enough tentacles, maybe he would make it through his natural life.
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Michelle Goldberg
Right. And I think that he also thought that he could sort of both like foment and take advantage of a backlash. To me too. Right. I mean, it was so funny to see. Funny is the wrong word. Bitterly ironic to see Jeffrey Epstein of all people kind of bitterly complaining about MeToo has gone too far and, you know, commiserating with men like Lawrence Summers, the former president of Harvard. Right. But I think that he thought that he could maybe kind of position himself as just one of a litany of powerful men who've been railroaded by an out of control social justice movement.
- [21:24]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Right. And that he again, he was watching all of this and knew what the evidence was on him. It's really striking. As you said, the story's not going away. If Trump would rather nobody was being called to account, let alone this, you know, some powerful billionaire, that kind of shows that Congress can still make people testify and we can still try to get information and that process goes forward. So Michelle and Vicki on a big day on that on the Hill. I want to thank you both. Coming up, we have a very newsworthy guest house. Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries is here only on the Beat tonight. We are following, of course, those airstrikes. We will ask him, I think, about some of the other issues we've been discussing and Donald Trump's economic problems heading into the midterms. Don't miss it. That's next. We're following breaking news and getting ready to hear from the top Democrat in the House. Iran war and ceasefire is tenuous. The United States launching new attacks on Iran. Now Central Command stresses that they view these as self defense. They began approximately at 5:15pm Eastern U.S. hitting five sites. This is near the Strait of Hormuz. We are following this. There is not a lot we know at this hour. But we are going to begin with a newsworthy guest who has been in Congress overseeing American foreign policy. New York Congressman Hakeem Jeffries is of course a Democratic minority leader. Thanks for joining me tonight.
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Hakeem Jeffries
Great to be with you.
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Ari Melber
What is your response to the news of these strikes and your view of what the United States should be doing in the US Interest to try to resolve this and for Americans try to get gas prices back under control?
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Hakeem Jeffries
Well, Donald Trump's reckless and costly war of choice has been a disaster for the American people. This has now gone on for more than 100 days. And as a direct result of this war, gas prices have gone up, food prices have gone up. And inflation has gone up in Congress. We, of course, were able to successfully last week in the House pass a war powers resolution over the objection of both Donald Trump and Speaker Mike Johnson, to end this reckless and costly war of choice in Iran. And we're hopeful that the Senate is going to take this up in short order and do exactly the same thing. You know, this was always a bad idea in terms of Donald Trump getting us involved in this conflict. And he lied to the American people. Donald Trump said that he was elected not to start wars, but to stop them. And then he turned around and did the exact opposite.
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Ari Melber
Yeah, Congressman, it's interesting. You know, sometimes people out in the country feel like, well, what are the Democrats even doing? I'm sure you've heard that criticism at times. And yet here your caucus has engineered one of the fastest uses of war powers limits in the early stage of a war. And so what would happen if you got the Senate involved? Would this actually, in your view, help shorten or end hostilities?
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Hakeem Jeffries
Yeah, without question. I mean, Donald Trump should have never gone to war without seeking the authorization of the United States Congress. That's in Article 1 of the Constitution. Of course, he ignores these things, which is why from the very beginning we began to introduce and press our case in terms of war powers resolutions. And now we've managed to convince four Republicans to join us, giving us the ability to have successfully move this in the House in the court of public opinion. Of course, we know that this war is deeply unpopular for all of the reasons that we've talked about. Ari. It's been a disaster in terms of the pocketbooks and the economics of the American people. And Donald Trump has had the nerve to say he doesn't care about the personal finances of every day Americans. And we continue to see that, you know, Donald Trump and the administration, including the so called Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, they had no plan, they had no strategy, no objectives, and no real visibility into how to get us out of a conflict that they got us into in the first place.
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Ari Melber
You mentioned pocketbooks. So if Democrats actually win the midterms, what changes for people's pocketbooks? Gas prices. And now what has been, as you mentioned, an inflation problem?
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Hakeem Jeffries
Well, the cost of living in the United States of America is far too high. This country is far too expensive, and there are too many people who are working hard, they're playing by the rules, and they're struggling to live paycheck to paycheck, can't thrive and can barely survive. And that's unacceptable in the Wealthiest country in the history of the world. And so we're committed to focusing relentlessly on the affordability crisis in a variety of areas. That includes housing and health care, gas and utilities, groceries and goods, and caregiving, which, of course includes both child care and elder care. The entire trajectory of one's life.
- [26:22]
Ari Melber
Will the midterms be secure? The Congress under Republicans has pushed this money for immigration. There's a concern ICE or federal agents could be misused. How do you address that?
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Hakeem Jeffries
Well, listen, we believe that we have to operate under the assumption that Republicans are going to do everything they can to try to rig the midterm elections, because the reality is they have no track record of accomplishment, no vision to present to the American people. We've undertaken now for months, putting together the greatest, largest voter protection effort in modern American history, working with our partners in the Senate, governors across the country, Democratic Attorney Generals, Democratic Secretaries of State, as well as every aspect of civil society. That includes the civil rights groups, organized labor, democracy protection groups, good government groups, and of course, the faith community. And we have to continue to make sure that this election is going to be free and fair, because we believe when it is a free and fair election, the American people are going to reject Republican extremism and they're going to give Democrats control of the House of Representatives.
- [27:38]
Ari Melber
If that happens, you would become Speaker. That's a big deal. We've known you a long time here. I don't know if you'll answer this question, but is there anything you can think of if you were speaker, that in those final two years of Trump, because he is constitutionally barred from anything else, that you could actually work with him on something where you guys would meet up and pass something?
- [27:57]
Hakeem Jeffries
Well, I think as Democrats, our view is, look, we gotta do three things. We gotta drive down the high cost of living, we have to fix our broken healthcare system, and we have to clean up corruption in Washington. So that's the Congress, that's certainly the Supreme Court, and we need dramatic change as it relates to the Supreme Court and of course, with this administration, the Trump cartel, the most corrupt administration in America.
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Ari Melber
Yeah, I don't think he'll have. I don't think he'll help you with corruption, at least under the legal definition. He's doing it.
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Hakeem Jeffries
Listen, I mean, you know, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is an ongoing crime scene, so you're absolutely correct, Ari. We don't expect that we're going to get any help there. We're going to lean in to aggressive accountability consistent with our role as House members to be as a check and balance on an out of control executive branch. But. But if Donald Trump is actually willing to work with us so we can help him keep his promise to the American people, which was to lower the cost of living, then maybe there'll be an opportunity to get some big things done.
- [29:02]
Ari Melber
Understood. We don't know whether he'd even want to say that he's helping you lower inflation because of the way he's been talking. And you know, people can make up their own minds about why he sounds like this. I don't think we've ever heard a president talk about the economy like this. I want to get your response to what he said here.
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Hakeem Jeffries
Are you concerned, Mr. President, about the latest inflation number which came out this morning.
- [29:25]
Ari Melber
Could that be a no? I love it. The numbers were great. You know what I really love? I love the inflation. Your response?
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Hakeem Jeffries
Yeah, it was sort of an extraordinary statement. But I also think we have to put this into context. Donald Trump believes there's no affordability crisis in the United States of America. He's called it a hoax. Donald Trump has directly said he doesn't care about the personal finances of the American people. And now Donald Trump has said he loves the inflation. And at the end of the day, I think the reality is the only conclusion that we can draw is that he doesn't give a damn about making life better for everyday Americans, which is one of the reasons why life has gotten more costly and has gotten worse for everyday Americans, both as a result of the Trump tariffs which have increased costs by thousands of dollars per year. He's gone after ripping health care away from everyday Americans, millions of people as a result of his actions. And the one big ugly bill. And now of course the reckless war of choice in Iran.
- [30:32]
Ari Melber
Turning to another big topic in Congress today, Bill Gates was testifying about the Epstein investigation. Yesterday, Congress finally after all these years brought in one of his top top employees who the FBI at one time investigated as a quote, suspected co conspirator, end quote. And the New York Times had this headline today about what a crisis mode the White House was in over Epstein and also holding these Situation Room meetings considering at least potentially a pardon for his sex trafficking help. Maxwell, there you look at how the Situation Room has been used historically presence in both parties. We have Obama and Biden in there using it to mine national security to go after. For example, we have the photo with Bin Laden that many Americans remember. Your response to the disclosures in this article and your view of what the committee is achieving with these new Epstein witnesses, testimony, private hearings.
- [31:36]
Hakeem Jeffries
Well, under the leadership of ranking member Robert Garcia, the soon to be chairman, the Oversight Committee Democrats have done a great job of standing up on behalf of the Epstein survivors, who've demanded two things, transparency and accountability. And so we've forced the administration to date to release about 3 million documents related to the Epstein saga. But they, of course, continue to withhold another approximately 3 million. And we're not going to relent until every single document is released to the public, until every single bit of information to be acquired is acquired by the Congress on behalf of the American people. And so what we've seen over the last two days is part of that continuing effort, because what the Epstein saga represents is just a horrific abuse of power by men of privilege and a corrupting of the system, doing great harm to these incredibly resilient, brilliant and courageous survivors. And we can never allow something like this to happen again. And that's why I think House Democrats will continue to press the case and work with a handful of Republicans who've decided to step up in this regard. Of course, Congressman Massie being an example.
- [32:59]
Ari Melber
Yeah, it's interesting. Congressman, you and I have spoken before about these narratives people have. Sometimes the media gets into this. It's all one brush. This is a story that's been different. You mentioned Massie, who was a Republican who stood up for transparency against Trump. People say, does that ever happen? Garcia, who you mentioned, and the folks you've empowered on your side, working for legal transparency in a way that it's very different than Trump and others thought this story would go two years ago. So that's interesting. We did that here in your limited time. We talk about the war and the economy. Before I let you go, we have a lighter topic. A New Yorker that you and I both know of a little bit has said, you know, he's so spiked out, he could trip a referee. We've seen the photos of you with your Knicks hat and gear and excitement. As a New Yorker, I want to let you weigh in on Knicks and how many and what does this mean to you and your district and your city?
- [33:52]
Hakeem Jeffries
Well, I'm excited. The district I represent is excited. New York City, of course, is very excited. The Big Apple has a love affair with the New York Knicks. Basketball, of course, is the city game. And so, you know, to see this historic run that the Knicks have been on has really energized so many people, brought folks together. I said at the beginning of the series, Nixon six, of course, we were perhaps on our way to doing it in a shorter series than that. But I expect we'll win today and then we'll see what happens when we go back to San Antonio. But, you know, I'm thankful. It was great to see. You may have noticed, Ahrii, that the Wu Tang Clan is going to perform at halftime, which is a good vibe change from, you know, the special guest that made an unwanted.
- [34:40]
Ari Melber
We have that. Here's the headline. Wu Tang Clan will perform Knicks Finals spurs game halftime show tonight. Well, I don't want to put you on the spot. You're thinking about bigger things. Which any songs you would hope to hear from Wu for your beloved Knicks tonight?
- [34:54]
Hakeem Jeffries
Well, you know, for me, cash rules Everything around me is a Wu Tang classic. Protect your neck is a Wu Tang classic. But I think the most appropriate song for tonight would be Triumph Boom off the second album.
- [35:09]
Ari Melber
Look at that. A leader who does more than one thing because we're all people. Fitting spirit there. We wish you and everyone good luck. Leader Jeffries on the court. Thank you, sir.
- [35:19]
Hakeem Jeffries
Thank you so much.
- [35:20]
Ari Melber
Appreciate it. We learned a lot there. Our thanks again to Hakeem Jeffries on a busy news night. When we return, the MAGA disinformation cycle and what some new media is doing to fight back. A big part of life in politics is being ready. Don't be caught flat footed. Know what's coming. Which brings us to Donald Trump pushing debunked lies about this recent primary in California, just as he's done with other disinformation. We saw that in 2020. Conspiracy theorists saying that one election worker was passing a flash drive under the table while tabulating votes. I'm showing you this to see how misinformation spreads because later that lie spread so far, she actually had to clear her name. Speaking to Congress, Mr. Giuliani accused you and your mother of passing some sort of USB drive to each other. What was your mom actually handing you on that video?
- [36:19]
Hakeem Jeffries
A ginger mint.
- [36:23]
Ari Melber
It wasn't just Rudy Giuliani. We heard President Trump make these false allegations repeatedly. What started with one little bit of misinformation about a ginger mint got out of control. Now we have AI and deepfakes and a MAGA movement that pushes this even more than the first term. Many don't know what to believe. And we're seeing some people want to actually go and make sure they have the right sources, which can include relying on the fact checked journalistic legacy media brands, at least some of them that are worth their salt. In fact, some note that readers are struggling to separate fact from friction. And now print media has stood out again as a symbol of credibility. Now, that is at the structural level in terms of people actually wanting to read it. There's also a print comeback. Newspapers and magazines that were kind of on the back burner have sometimes been brought print editions back. We've seen that with the Atlantic and the Onion and across culture, something we keep an eye on here. Complex magazine brought back a print version, as did the iconic Vibe magazine. What's the link with all of this? And how should you stay prepared for the lies coming at you? The truth still matters. And we have a special guest on this next.
- [37:40]
Chris Hayes
Can I just quickly say hello to you? For me, being a part of this place has always been about the people, not about the politics. Why are you holding this sign? You ever been to a protest before? Be safe. People that we cover who allow us to enter their lives. How's everybody doing? Everybody doing okay? How long you guys been in line? I love human beings. To spend time connecting with them is the biggest blessing that I could ask for.
- [38:02]
Jacob Soboroff
From the field to the studio, Jacob is finding the heart of the story. Connect with Jacob Soboroff premieres Saturday, 10am Eastern on Ms. Now,
- [38:13]
Ari Melber
we've been exploring how legacy media can actually join this fight on all of the disinformation issues. And I mentioned a special guest, Hwan Thomas, his CEO of Daylight Media, strategic advisor to Vibe. Here is their new cover as they return to print. Part of that wider theme that I mentioned. You got a dollar AP rocky here on the new cover. Tell us about this. And I'm going to put up Obama all the way back in 07 had a historic Vibe cover. What does all this mean in your view of the power of these traditional brands in a new environment?
- [38:44]
Hwan Thomas
Well, I really feel as though print media, it gives a certain validity and accountability aspect to journalism, but in urban culture, I believe it just comes off as like, these are collectibles that honor our vast history of creativity and super talent. And of course, the new term coined term black excellence, and we don't get to see that in mainstream media a lot of times. So just sticking to what Quincy Jones saw as a void who was the founder of Vibe, he saw the void in our voices not being heard and how much we were changing music and fashion and language and everything else. He was like, hey, I gotta start this. So we're just carrying on tradition.
- [39:38]
Ari Melber
Black opulence, excellence. Yes, it is. Tux is next to the president.
- [39:41]
Hwan Thomas
Oh, yeah, you always got the bars, man.
- [39:47]
Ari Melber
We Have a issue you were in when Tupac passed.
- [39:50]
Hwan Thomas
Yes.
- [39:52]
Ari Melber
That was a big moment in the culture, and you were in that original Vibe. Tell us about that. We also have Aaliyah. Again, moments that are a little different than the fleeting Internet, when you kind of look up and say, right, this matters.
- [40:03]
Hwan Thomas
Yeah, that definitely mattered. Behind the story on that particular cover is I do remember I was an intern at that time. That was the first time I saw my name in print. Tupac, of course, I was a fan, but it was a lot of east coast, west coast stuff going on, obviously, and his untimely demise. But that particular cover was one of those stop the presses type issues where, I believe, New Edition, they had the COVID and they had to stop the press to put Tupac on because his death, of course, was the newsmaker at the time.
- [40:38]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And today we have overload, and everyone can kind of post everything online, but as I mentioned, we're seeing both in the political space of facts, but also the cultural space of making sure. Wait, how do we have value? Which is different than just everyone yelling at each other? Talk about that while we show Public enemy. This is 94 Vibe, which, again, we pulled some of these classics. We're going to see Aretha and Prince talk about that.
- [41:03]
Hwan Thomas
Yeah. So I believe, like, we get everything instant now. You know, you could doom scroll. You could keep going. And that doesn't mean that you're taking in the quality or you're taking in the skill set that so many previous Vibe writers. That particular cover was done by the great Kevin Powell. Kevin Powell did that one. He and I worked on that together for the amazing Aretha Franklin. It's scarcity, but what we need is substance. We need substance, and to do that, sometimes it takes a little bit more of a slow cook. And that slow cook, you get the issue in your hand. That means someone is actually taking accountability, putting their credibility on the line to be able to say, hey, this means something, something, and let's hold onto it so it doesn't just float away into some AI space.
- [41:54]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And with all of that AI and misinformation kind of glut, we're seeing a return even among some young people to, oh, I actually want it on vinyl.
- [42:03]
Hwan Thomas
Yes.
- [42:03]
Ari Melber
I want the book. I want the physical book. Even though I could do an audiobook, or in this case, I want this magazine. I don't want to predict anything, but if you're lucky, day one, maybe even writers will come back.
- [42:13]
Hwan Thomas
Hey, there we go.
- [42:16]
Ari Melber
And again, we wanted to spotlight what you and Vibe and Rolling Stone the whole family are doing.
- [42:19]
Hwan Thomas
Yes.
- [42:20]
Ari Melber
Thank you very much.
- [42:21]
Chris Hayes
For me, being a part of this place has always been about the people, not about the politics.
- [42:26]
Jacob Soboroff
From the field to the studio, Jacob is finding the heart of the story. Connect with Jacob Soboroff premieres Saturday, 10am Eastern on Ms. Now.