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The Beat with Ari Melber
Outrage Amid Trump Admin “War Crime” Reports
00:41:20
MS NOW’s Melissa Murray reports on an alleged war crime that is engulfing the Trump administration.
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- [00:00]
Tom Nichols
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Dalia Lithwick
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Melissa Murray
Welcome to the Beat. I'm Melissa Murray in for Ari Melber. And we begin tonight with the growing scandal about an alleged war crime that is engulfing the Trump administration. It involves a military airstrike back in September, the first in what Trump officials claim is a campaign targeting suspected drug smugglers in the Caribbean. The Washington Post reports that as officials watch the boat on a drone feed, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth gave the order, kill them all, according to two people with direct knowledge of the operation. But after the smoke cleared from the missile strike, there was a shock. Two survivors were clinging to the smoldering wreck. The Post reports that, quote, the special operations commander ordered a second strike to comply with Hegseth's instructions. The two men were blown apart in the water to people familiar with the matter said. Now, lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are saying that if the Washington Post's reporting is true, the strike is illegal.
- [02:02]
Tom Nichols
Obviously, if that occurred, that would be. Be very serious. And I agree that, that that would would be an illegal act. Going after survivors in the water, that is clearly not lawful. If that reporting is true, it's a clear violation of the DoD's own laws of war. And so this level of a war crime, if it was as if the article said that, is a violation of the law of war. When people want to surrender, you don't kill them.
- [02:31]
Melissa Murray
In fact, both American and international law would suggest that this was, in fact, an illegal strike. The Pentagon's own manual for the laws of war says, quote, persons who have been incapacitated by wounds, sickness or shipwreck are in a helpless state, and it would be dishonorable and inhumane to, to make them the object of Attack. And both the Senate and House Armed Services committees say that they will investigate this matter. And while Trump now says that he backs Hegseth, he was more equivocal on Sunday when asked about it. Take a listen.
- [03:07]
Tom Nichols
Can you talk a little bit about.
- [03:08]
Alexander Vindman
These strikes in the controversy around Secretary.
- [03:11]
Tom Nichols
The Defense Pete Hegseth?
- [03:13]
Alexander Vindman
I don't know anything about it. He said, he said he did not say that and I believe him 100%. You don't know you're talking about the.
- [03:19]
Norm Eisen
Two men, the second strike to kill.
- [03:20]
Tom Nichols
Yeah, I, he said he didn't do it.
- [03:23]
Norm Eisen
If there were a second strike that.
- [03:25]
Tom Nichols
Killed wounded people wounded in the first strike. Well, number one, I don't, yeah, number.
- [03:30]
Alexander Vindman
One, I don't know that that happened. And Pete said he did not want them.
- [03:35]
John Leguizamo
He didn't even know what people were talking about.
- [03:38]
Alexander Vindman
So we'll look at, we'll look into it.
- [03:40]
Tom Nichols
But no, I wouldn't have wanted that. Not a second strike.
- [03:45]
Melissa Murray
Pete Hegseth and the Pentagon deny the accusations and maintain that these actions were lawful. In total, the administration has conducted at least 21 strikes that have caused 83 fatalities. From the outset, the legality of all of these actions has been hotly debated. This is all the latest in a string of controversies surrounding Pete Hegseth, including the accidental sharing of classified information in the so called signal gate incident from March. Joining me now to discuss all of this is Tom Nichols, writer with the Atlantic and professor emeritus of the National Security affairs at the US Naval War College. His latest article is titled Pete Hegseth Needs to Go Now. Also with me tonight is Dalia Lithwick, senior editor and legal correspondent for Slate. She's also an Ms. Now law and politics analyst. Tom, let's start with you. Given your experience with the laws of war, what is your reaction to this extraordinary story?
- [04:48]
Tom Nichols
Well, first they said it didn't happen, and now they're saying it's happened and it's legal and lawful. The problem is that there is no scenario under which you can fire and kill, fire at and kill people that are helpless in the water and make it legal. There just isn't. I mean, this is, you know, they've, they've really chosen to plant the flag here on something that isn't even ambiguous. You know, there are a lot of cases the United States has been involved in a lot of difficult places in the world like Somalia, the Battle of Mogadishu, Afghanistan, Iraq. This isn't this. This one isn't even in the same ballpark. These are shipwrecked people who have been rendered incapable of combat. Not that they were capable of it in the first place. I mean, these were. There's no argument that these boats are ever shot at us. We just don't like what they're doing and we assume that they have drugs on them and so we can just blow them up. But, you know, the idea that you can then go in and say, you know what, we're just going to execute the last surviv. We actually prosecuted people after World War II for doing that exact same thing. Yesterday was the 80th anniversary of the death by firing squad of a U boat, of a Nazi U boat commander who was convicted of doing exactly what Hegseth is is accused of ordering here.
- [06:14]
Melissa Murray
So, Dalia, Tom makes very clear why this particular incident is so concerning. But I would just note that legally, these strikes have always been on thin ice. And you've discussed this a fair amount on your Amicus podcast and your writing. What's your take on this? What makes this so wobbly and uneven in terms of its legality?
- [06:36]
Dalia Lithwick
I mean, I think Tom makes exactly the point. This is a kind of double decker sandwich of illegality because it's not even clear that we're in anything resembling a war. That's been a question from the jump. Whatever it is that we're doing in the Caribbean, it's not clear by any metric that it's legal and that these were extrajudicial killings long before this weekend's reporting happened. And so I think it's really important to understand we are now debating in some sense the coda to that story, Melissa, which is, oh, and then they straight up assassinated people who were clinging to hull of the boat. But whether there's any authority under any law that allows us to just go shooting at boats because we're saying that we're in a war on drugs and that the president gets to decide who is carrying drugs and how they are executed. Right. This is the administration claiming to be judge and jury and assassin all in one go. So long before we got to a conversation about, as Tom just said, whether somebody who is essentially shipwrecked can be assassinated. We have to have the conversation we actually haven't had for several months now about whether we can even call this a war.
- [08:02]
Melissa Murray
Well, Tom, I want you to take a listen to Caroline Levitt in her White House press briefing today because she is doubling down, that these were necessary actions and there is no wrongdoing here. Take a listen.
- [08:15]
Dalia Lithwick
The struck, the strike conducted on September.
- [08:17]
Melissa Murray
2Nd was conducted in Self defense to protect Americans in vital United States interests. All right, Tom, still a lawyer here. I know the standard for self defense. Is this even plausible? These are two suspected smugglers in a small boat, and this is an act of self defense. Say more.
- [08:39]
Tom Nichols
I don't think we should spend a whole lot of time taking too seriously anything Caroline Levitt says, because that's what Caroline Levitt does. This isn't. The idea that this is self defense, again, is laughable. You would have to argue that somehow our forces were in danger and returned fire. People forget we interdict drug boats all the time. The Coast Guard has been doing this for decades. And the idea that there's only one way that we know how to do this and that is to just, you know, fix them with a satellite and then blow them to smithereens is ridiculous. It's because, again, it's something we actually know how to do. And so the claim of self defense is probably. She was probably given talking points that stretch this idea that, well, you know, drugs are bad and Americans die, and therefore we have to preemptively stop the drugs that are going to kill Americans. And that makes it self defense. That is such a stretch of self defense that it would get laughed out of any court, internationally or domestically, because of how many. It's just removed so many steps. But at this point, what can they do? Of course they're going to say whatever they need to say that they're acting legally. This whole thing should never. Dolly is absolutely right. This whole thing should never have gotten off the ground, at least not without some congressional approval. Clear statement of what we're intending to do, why we're doing it, when we'll know that we're done. And instead, it's the President saying, you know, I'm just going to flex muscle and kill people and prove that the military will do whatever I tell them to do. And so, of course, you're going to get statements coming out of the White House that says the President's always right because that's. That's her job.
- [10:23]
Melissa Murray
Well, Dalia, it's not just coming from the White House. Over at the Pentagon, Pete Hegseth also doesn't seem to be taking these accusations very seriously. Over the weekend, he posted this. A meme of Franklin the turtle bombing boats. What's your reaction to this, Dolly? I mean, is anybody taking this seriously anywhere?
- [10:47]
Dalia Lithwick
I mean, look, I think it's not an unsmart play to just start with trolling, right? Trolling always wins. And when you post a trivial meme it's generally a good deflection. Maybe the bigger question, Melissa, is that this is sticking to Pete Hegseth, like, it's not funny, it's not registering as comedy or owning the libs. I think probably with a little hindsight, making this a joke was an error even for him, because this is across, as you said, ideological lines. Now, we are hearing from members of the Congress that if this is true, this is a war crime, and the idea that this is the thing that's going to stick as its own segment. Right. Like so many things are allowed to slide. But it is entirely possible that while Pete Hegseth didn't initially think this was anything beyond a punchline, the country disagrees. And I think I would maybe just add this. You know, Tom just said, and it's really important to emphasize we executed people in 1945 for doing precisely this. You know, killing folks who were on a boat that didn't need to be killed, and then saying, I was just following orders. Neither of those presumptions are a question as a matter of law. So the idea that Pete Hexseth, like, you know, sent out a turtle, tells you that he thinks he's bulletproof and he might be wrong.
- [12:30]
Melissa Murray
Well, to that point, Tom, if this does have legs, what kind of prosecutions could those involved later face?
- [12:39]
Tom Nichols
Well, let's be realistic. I want to say one thing, though, about that meme. It's the Christmas season, and the Secretary of Defense took a beloved children's character and depicted him blowing up drug smugglers. You have to look at that and wonder, what the hell is wrong with these people? I mean, aside from policy differences we may have. I mean, this is just. It's just wrong. I mean, it's just kind of sick. And it shows you the complete unseriousness of people that should be taking the most serious job in the world very much more seriously than they are. As for prosecutions, let's be realistic. If something. If. If Hegseth turns out Hegseth gave this order, Trump's going to pardon him, and Trump himself will get immunity because the Supreme Court has already said he can't be prosecuted for anything. He's basically a king, and he can't be prosecuted for anything. The question is how many people who followed this order. And again, in the name of fairness, we have to say if these details are correct and Hegseth or Admiral Bradley gave this order, or if Hegseth gave it and Bradley carried it out and then it went down the chain, how many people down that chain have the same immunity because you. You don't get a pass as. As, you know, Dolly just pointed out. I was just following orders. Doesn't cut it in the 20th century or the 21st century anymore. And so, you know, but in terms of Hegseth, the worst thing that could happen to Hegseth is that he get fired. That he gets fired, and he has to go back to being Pete Hegseth. But I wouldn't be looking for some kind of international prosecution or some kind of American court because Trump's gonna. Trump's gonna extend his. His pardons to. To people, because that's what he does. Right.
- [14:25]
Melissa Murray
Dalia, I want to circle back to the administration's purported justifications for this. They claim that all of this is to limit the entering of drugs from the United States. And this, again, belies belief. Most drugs don't enter the United States on boats. And more troublingly, recently the president pardoned the former president of Honduras, someone who was actually convicted of drugs trafficking. So how do we reconcile these different incidents with this justification that we're doing all of this to stop the flow of drugs?
- [14:58]
Dalia Lithwick
Right. I mean, I think two things, Melissa. The first is what you just said. If we really, really cared about who's pouring, you know, huge amounts of cocaine into the United States, this would not be, you know, the. The conversation we'd be having about forgiving somebody who's been, you know, clearly. Clearly leading that as opposed to tiny little boats. So I think you're exactly right. This is not about interdicting drugs. And also, and I think you've both said this now, we've had a policy for a very long time of returning people to their home countries. Many of them never face any kind of charges. I mean, this is not. This is small ball, and this is very small, small ball. And so I think that the larger point is this is part of a larger theme, which is Donald Trump gets to declare emergencies. Donald Trump gets to say that, you know, drug trafficking is emergency. Then he gets to say the army is answerable only to me. Right. We've heard recently, I cannot give an unlawful order to the military. Stop and sit with that. And then we are hearing about a massive, massive expansion of executive power. And this is simply a test of that. It's another version of putting people on the streets in Chicago, putting people on the streets in Portland and saying, like, the entire military exists to respond to emergencies that I declare with or without factual predicate. So I'm a little bit with Tom here, like, parsing the nature of this war on drugs is a little bit of how they say squirrel right? We chase after it. This is a massive expansion of presidential power. A claim, Nixonian, that if the president orders it, it's not illegal and if Pete Hegseth orders it, it's not illegal. We are testing that and the real question is whether people are going to accede to that.
- [16:57]
Melissa Murray
All right, Tom Nichols, Dahlia Lithwick, thank you for helping us connect all those dots. Coming up, we are going to break down some new setbacks for Trump as his approval rating plummets to a new low. Plus my interview with Alexander Vindman about the corruption behind Trump's so called called peace plan with Russia. And by the end of the hour, the great John Leguizamo is going to be back. And we are back in just 90 seconds.
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Melissa Murray
And you don't have to leave the house shop the Cyber Monday sale Today only@DSW.com exclusions apply. DSW Let us surprise you. Some early coal in Santa's stocking. The first day after the holiday weekend delivered a new stage stinging rebuke of Donald Trump. A federal appeals court has ruled that New Jersey U.S. attorney Alina Haba has been serving unlawfully. The three judge panel concluded that the Trump administration appeared to become frustrated by the legal and political barriers to installing its preferred picks as US Attorneys, the top law enforcement officers in those districts. And according to the court, the administration's tactics to keep Haba in office violated the law. All of this comes just a week after a different federal judge dismissed the Trump administration's cases against James Comey and Letitia James because that prosecutor, Lindsey Halligan, was also appointed unlawfully. The string of legal setbacks is a blow to Trump, but he might not realize just how far his standing has fallen. The Atlantic is calling Donald Trump, quote, the bubble wrapped. President Trump reporting that, quote, everyone around Trump and everything he's seeing on TV and on his phone is telling him that he's right. But poll after poll suggests that Americans believe Trump is now getting it wrong. The numbers back all of this up. Recent Gallup polling shows Trump with a 36% approval rating. That's the lowest approval rating of his second term. And things look even worse for Trump's GOP comrades in Congress. Back in March, Congress enjoyed a 63% approval rating among Republicans. In September, on the eve of the shutdown that had fallen to 54%. Now, following the longest government shutdown in history, Congressional approval again among Republicans, is at 23%. Trump and his party are on the ropes, even among their own voters. Joining me now to talk about all of this is Molly Jong, fast contributing opinion writer for the New York Times and an Ms. Now political analyst. Also with me is Ambassador Norm Eisen, the former ethics czar in the Obama White House and part of the legal team that successfully challenged U.S. attorney Alina Habba's appointment. Ambassador, let's talk about the Habas ruling. What is your reaction to this ruling from the Third Circuit?
- [21:21]
Norm Eisen
Well, it's yet another blow to Donald Trump in his assault on the Constitution and laws of the United States. And in this instance, Melissa, he put somebody in as U.S. attorney against the wishes of Congress, Article 1 of the Constitution. The statutory scheme says, for example, if there is a vacancy, you put in the first assistant. Well, Alita Hava wasn't the first assistant. I mean, it's so ridiculous. So I brought this case with wonderful co counsel Abby Lowell, Jerry Cravatin, and my colleagues at the Democracy Defenders Fund. And actually, our initial win at the trial court, this was the theory that the judge used in the Comey and James cases, where we also filed a brief on behalf of former judges. And to say it's ridiculous. Fortunately, the rule of Law is pushing back on Donald Trump.
- [22:28]
Melissa Murray
So just to set this up, this was an end run around having Alina Habas go before the Senate to be confirmed, which is typically the procedure when you want to appoint a U.S. attorney lawfully. In this case, they tried to appoint her as an interim. There's a period of time where that can happen and then it lapses. And then at that point, the judges in that district are supposed to step in and appoint the interim. And that didn't happen here. Instead, the DOJ extended her run. Do you anticipate that all of this is then going to the Supreme Court, or is this the end of the line for Alina Haba and the Trump administration on this move?
- [23:04]
Norm Eisen
Well, I've learned in 35 years of doing this to guess what the Supreme Court is going to do at my own peril. I don't think it's a cert worthy question though, because it's so cut and dried under the statutes that for 120 days, Donald Trump gets his pick. After that time lapses, the court went through the very elaborate legal scheme and none of that happened here. So there's not that much for the Supreme Court to do. And this is happening all across the country. Not just the Tish James and James Comey case, but Trump appointed cronies from coast to coast are being dinged by the courts cuz Trump is not following the law. And of course, it's just one of hundreds of times that the courts have checked Donald Trump's assault on the Constitution and laws of our country. And that is a very good thing. So it's a good day for the Constitution today.
- [24:12]
Melissa Murray
All right, Molly, the Atlantic is reporting that there aren't a lot of dissenting voices speaking to the president. The courts may be the only ones. And the Atlantic reports that there's something of an echo chamber around the President. They say, quote, there are very few voices inside the White House to tell him no or get him back on track. Truth Social provides a stream of praise from adoring disciples as well as AI Slop and other provocative posts that play to the President's basest political instincts. How concerned should we all be about the president operating in this echo chamber?
- [24:45]
Molly Jong-Fast
Well, this is the fundamental difference between Trump 1.0 and Trump 2.0.
- [24:48]
Tom Nichols
Right.
- [24:49]
Molly Jong-Fast
We talk about this a lot. There were grownups in the room in Trump 1.0. There are no grownups in the room in Trump 2.0. But there are also know that everyone's just a sycophant. Right. And so, and that's by design. That's what he needs, that's what he likes. But the fundamental problem for him is that we are still a democracy, at least for now. And you see with this special election coming up tomorrow in a district where Donald Trump won, you know, it's an R + 22 and Donald Trump is calling in because they are worried about an R +22. So obviously some things are getting through to him.
- [25:26]
Dalia Lithwick
Right.
- [25:26]
Molly Jong-Fast
And you do have midterms coming up and you do have Republicans all of a sudden after that November election, after these poll after poll after poll that show him as almost, you know, sort of as unpopular, if not more unpopular. Yeah. Than Nixon. Right. Making Bush too look like Lincoln. You see that Donald Trump, they're starting to panic. And you're seeing Republican pushback partially because these people want to keep their job.
- [25:52]
Melissa Murray
Right. Well, speaking of Bush and the Republican desire to survive, Karl Rove was on Fox this weekend and he had some advice for Republicans. He advised them to take a more popular and populous agenda. So I want you to take a listen.
- [26:09]
Tom Nichols
If the Republicans want to maximize their victories in 2026, they need to have, they need to go back in the wayback machine to 1992 and remember the immortal words of that great strategist James Carville, it's the economy, stupid. He said to, to and, and you gotta have an, that is forward looking. What are we going to have in the way of pro growth policies that Americans will say, yeah, that'll make my family and my community and my financial prospects better.
- [26:38]
Melissa Murray
I wasn't expecting him to have a Katie Porter whiteboard, but I appreciate it. Is this the way a popular populist message focused on affordability and economic concerns?
- [26:47]
Molly Jong-Fast
Here's a problem for Karl Rove, right. This is a big problem we have. Donald Trump has enacted all these tariffs, right. These haphazard tariffs, they're inflationary. That's making things more expensive. Right. You can't message that.
- [27:00]
Melissa Murray
Right.
- [27:00]
Molly Jong-Fast
I don't know how you message this is all, I mean, Trump tries, but it's very difficult. And then you have the health insurance premiums. And I think when you think about the shutdown, what did Democrats, you know, what was the message? The Democratic. These premiums are going to go up. These premiums are going up. They have. And they're going up more and more and more. And we're seeing these like people say their premiums are 20, 30, 40, 50, 60%. I mean, insane.
- [27:26]
Melissa Murray
Well, and you also have a president who, I think this is a big Difference from Trump, one, he's not out on the hustings the way he was before. He's not interacting with the base. Instead, he's hanging out at Mar a Lago with oligarchs.
- [27:37]
Molly Jong-Fast
Right. And it is, I thought it was a bit strange that if they're really worried about this Tennessee seat and Donald Trump loves to do an event, why is he not out there doing an event in ruby Red, Tennessee? And that I was surprised by. Yes. And look, you'll remember from last week, which feels like 10,000 years ago, Marjorie Taylor Greene was talking about, about how, like, maybe Donald Trump is spending too much time with globalists and, you know, billionaires and that real MAGA is with the people. That is, you know, it's very hard to make that case when you're Donald Trump and you spent your whole Thanksgiving break Right. In Palm beach at your club.
- [28:13]
Melissa Murray
Right. Norm, I want to get you in on this as well. The president has been laser focused on things like the White House renovations and crypto policies, and voters are not happy. What are the major factors that are turning them away from Trump? Is it just affordability? Is it just the economy? Or is it something else?
- [28:33]
Norm Eisen
I do think that affordability and health care are important factors, but it's the, the, the, the, the third leg of that nuclear triad that has been so negative for Trump is the corruption and the cost of corruption. The golden piece plane from Qatar, the countless amounts, some estimates put it at around $2 billion that Donald Trump has personally made off of the White House crypto and otherwise maintaining roles in those crypto businesses. The corrupt pardons where you have fraudsters who ripped off ordinary Americans getting a pardon or cocaine kingpins. In the case of Mr. Hernandez, it just doesn't feel like he's serving the American people. He's serving himself. That's the definition of corruption. And then, of course, you have this constant stream of laws being broken at the Democracy Defenders Fund. We now have over 225 legal cases and matters. And time after time, the courts are chastising Donald Trump. And that is a part of that climate where he's helping himself. He's not helping the American people. No wonder he's down in the dumps. That is not what they hired him to do.
- [30:05]
Melissa Murray
Good advice for the president, if he'll take it. Molly Jong, Fast. Ambassador Norm Eisen, thank you so much. Later in the show, we will have actor and activist John Leguizamo on ice raids, fighting maga, and so much more. But first, bombshell revelations on apparent Trump world corruption from AI to crypto to negotiations with Putin. That's up next.
- [30:31]
Tom Nichols
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- [31:25]
Melissa Murray
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- [33:20]
Tom Nichols
Putin's the invader, he's the dictator. He's murdered all of his opponents. But I just don't see that moral clarity coming from the White House. Russia, if they get a favorable agreement with Ukraine, that alarms me tremendously. I want to see America be the leader of the free world, standing up for what's right, not for who can make a buck. You know, I don't want to see a foreign policy based on greed.
- [33:44]
Melissa Murray
Trump is no stranger to using government pressure to benefit personally in this region of the world. In 2019, whistleblower Alexander Vindman reported the now famous quid pro quo call with Ukraine that led to Trump's first impeachment. Alexander Vindman is my guest that is up next. Joining me now is Alexander Vindman, former Director of European affairs at the U. S. National Security Council. He was the first to report concerns about Trump's alleged quid pro quo call with Vladimir Zelensky. And as you know, that call led to Trump's first impeachment. So, Alex, what was your reaction to this reporting in the Wall Street Journal around the negotiations with Putin?
- [34:38]
Alexander Vindman
Melissa, good to see you again. Unfortunately, it's not in person, like a couple weeks ago. It was deeply disturbing. I think, frankly, I cannot think of a more chaotic negotiation process in any period in our history. But more than the chaos, because this has been fits and starts, you know, Trump's attention for, for moments. Then he gets sidetracked or thinks it's too hard and moves on. What's troubling me about this one is both a combination of the ineptitude and also the self service of these actors. You know, we now have a broad precedence of billionaires looking to enrich themselves. The reporting around David Sacks and AI Witkoff taking his son to various meetings in the Middle east. This one is now looks like it's grounded on this. Several points within this Russian wish list was called the 28 point plan, in which the US has access to Russian frozen assets and gets first dibs on investments in the region. It's occurring in Miami for some strange reason, maybe because it's convenient for Jared Kushner, who doesn't have either a formal role or frankly any expertise or on a basis. I, I served in, with, with Kushner in the first administration when he was a senior advisor. He didn't, he never touched Russia or Ukraine. So it's, it's strange that he's getting involved now. But there's a business component to it which makes, it, makes it you know, gives it some sense. Bottom line, this looks like the, the, the signals from the top. Trump is a corrupt actor. He's looking to enrich himself. The signals are to all his billionaires to kind of follow suit. So that's, I think, the template that is familiar to me.
- [36:29]
Melissa Murray
So it seems as though, and I think others looking from the outside in might think that, you know, this is a situation where key officials may be in a position to profit from these ongoing negotiations with Russia. How does this play with our allies in other parts of the world? Like, what is Europe thinking as they look at this?
- [36:44]
Tom Nichols
This?
- [36:46]
Alexander Vindman
They're deeply troubled. I think the biggest indication is that it looks like one of the European intelligence services leaked a conversation between Dmitriv and Woff. And, you know, DM is the Putin aid. The, the Putin aid. And the idea was to spoil this dimwit peace plan that they're, they're trying to advance. The idea was that Witkoff was informing Dmitriev of how Putin should engage with Trump, posturing Trump, posturing Putin to be able to spoil Trump's initiatives, whether it was Tomahawk dealers engagement with Ukraine and Trump was effectively manipulated. So I think the Europeans are deeply troubled, but they're not sitting on their hands. They're now taking proactive action and including some leaks to, to disrupt this absurd peace effort that mounts the Russian wish list.
- [37:44]
Melissa Murray
Can we talk a little bit about the substance of that leaked phone, that leaked call transcript? Were you surprised by the way in which it seemed like there was coaching going on that Witkoff was coaching the Russians and how to appeal to the president, how to negotiate with him on this matter of geopolitics?
- [38:05]
Alexander Vindman
It's pretty shocking. It, it's clear to me that the Russians are the principal manipulators here. They're the ones that are dangling, you know, the big windfall deals to Witkoff and to the president to get him onto this plan. But at the same time, Witkoff doesn't sense this. He doesn't understand that he's being played. And then he's proceeding to coach and, you know, not just offer additional aid beyond his, his, you know, partisan role to advance this, this theft. He's also saying, hey, this is also how you disrupt the engagement between Trump and Zelensky. So it is pretty shocking, I think, that this is easily a fireable offense, that Trump should be deeply concerned that he's being manipulated by his own staff. And I don't understand how, you know, maybe this explains to a certain set of why, why Rubio is now sitting in the middle of the table. And Witkoff is off to the side. He's not. He's the central figure. Maybe he's on the Knights, hopefully.
- [39:07]
Molly Jong-Fast
All right.
- [39:08]
Melissa Murray
All very unorthodox. Alexander Vindman, thank you so much for joining us and for that helpful context. Up next, John Leguizamo joins me live in studio after this quick break. Donald Trump is expanding his highly controversial immigration trackdown tonight. ICE agents are expanding their efforts to Louisiana and parts of Mississippi. And all of this is part of a broader push to ramp up immigration enforcement in Democrat led cities. And the horrors of that effort unfolded over the holiday weekend. Immigration officers detained a college student at a Boston airport and deported her to Honduras in violation of a court order. She's traveling to Texas to surprise her family for Thanksgiving. Nearly two thirds of Americans say that they disapprove of Trump's immigration policies. Joining me now to discuss all of this is John Leguizamo, an iconic actor, comedian and producer who has been outspoken on immigration issues. So, John, what is your reaction to all of this that's unfolding across American cities at the holidays? What do you think Trump supporters are thinking as they watch this? Is this what they voted for?
- [40:25]
John Leguizamo
I hope it's not what Trump supporters voted for because they were told that they were gonna take criminals out of the country and they're not. They're taking innocent people, mothers and fathers, pregnant women, you know, pepper spraying children. I mean, the level of cruelty is so horrific to watch, especially during the holidays when you're celebrating family. And now you have to witness all these horrors. And I'm glad everybody's filming it because it's important to document the level cruelty that we're seeing on brown bodies. I obviously take it more personally because the majority, 99% of the people being assaulted and disappeared are Latinos. So it's an assault on the Latin community. And I hope all the Latino voters that voted for Trump are upset about their vote.
- [41:12]
Melissa Murray
Yeah, well, this can't be what people wanted. No cruelty. No, it can't be, right?
- [41:17]
John Leguizamo
I mean, I hope it's not. I mean, I hope the level of cruelty is offending people and hurting them as well.
- [41:25]
Melissa Murray
So you mentioned the festive season. I want to talk about this recent project of yours that is now out on Hulu. It is a movie called Bob Trevino Likes it. And it follows a very unlikely friendship between your character Bob Trevino and a young woman who is searching for her father online. So let's take a look.
- [41:44]
John Leguizamo
So what other basic necessities of life.
- [41:47]
Melissa Murray
Do you not have college education, health insurance, car?
- [41:54]
John Leguizamo
So in other words, you don't have any tools, huh?
- [41:58]
Melissa Murray
Not really, no.
- [42:00]
John Leguizamo
So if a problem arises, what do you use? I mean, how do you fix it? Girl, how are you even alive?
- [42:12]
Molly Jong-Fast
I feel.
- [42:12]
Melissa Murray
That's me talking to every teenager.
- [42:14]
John Leguizamo
Right, right. What kind of tools do you have.
- [42:16]
Tom Nichols
For life to do this?
- [42:19]
Melissa Murray
So this is actually based on a true story. What can you tell us about what insp. This movie?
- [42:24]
John Leguizamo
Well, it's amazing. Tracy Layman, the. The writer and director of this beautiful piece that's won 30 awards in film festivals and 30 film festivals. I mean, it's an incredible film. Everyone who's seen it falls in love with it. And. And men cry. That's the wildest thing. It makes grown men like myself weep. And we don't cry that often.
- [42:42]
Melissa Murray
We cry. It's.
- [42:43]
John Leguizamo
Oh, you do?
- [42:44]
Alexander Vindman
Okay. But.
- [42:44]
John Leguizamo
But we gotta.
- [42:45]
Tom Nichols
We gotta be.
- [42:47]
John Leguizamo
Hook you up. So it's. It's a true story of her, of Tracy, that she had disagreement with her pops and wasn't talking to him. And then after a while, she wanted to reach out to him, and they had been estranged, and she linked up with the wrong man on Facebook. But after a while, she realized it wasn't her dad, but she met with him and had a better relationship with this man, this newfound father, than her real father. And that's what this movie's about.
- [43:12]
Melissa Murray
It's a movie about, like, chosen family.
- [43:14]
Molly Jong-Fast
Yeah, Chosen family.
- [43:15]
John Leguizamo
That sometimes the family you're born to may be too toxic and you may need to move on to somebody who's more nurturing and more unconscious.
- [43:23]
Melissa Murray
And it's such an interesting. It's so interesting, given everything that's happening and unfolding with the immigration enforcement crisis right now. I mean, a lot of people who may have wanted a crackdown in immigration are finding that people who they think of as part of their community, part of their families, are actually in uneven immigration statuses and are being deported and forcibly. And it is sort of disrupted. Their entire view of what community looks like, what the law looks like. And the story sort of plays out like we are all part of a chosen ecosystem.
- [43:50]
John Leguizamo
Yes, we are it. And when you start destroying that dismantling, and you dismantle large parts of American society. First of all, who are the essential workers? It's Latinos who are getting your food, your carpentry, your painting, your building. We do most of the essential labor. And you disappear us. I mean, you're destroying the economy.
- [44:13]
Melissa Murray
So this movie about chosen family found family it's perfect for the holiday season.
- [44:19]
John Leguizamo
Oh, it's such a beautiful movie because it's about what we need the most now. Respect, consideration. And it celebrates that in the most beautiful way. These two unlikely individuals become almost like a surrogate father for each other, you know?
- [44:35]
Melissa Murray
Right. So it's a great movie for a really uncertain time, for a festive season where there's a lot going on.
- [44:42]
John Leguizamo
You can see it on Hulu, you can get it anywhere online. And I'm telling you, bring your friends to it. It's a celebratory movie.
- [44:48]
Melissa Murray
And the movie is called Bob Trevino likes it. John Leguizamo. Thank you. And we will be right back. That does it for me. Ari is back in the hot seat tomorrow. And the weeknight is up next.
- [45:05]
Tom Nichols
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