State Probe Begins Into Epstein’s New Mexico Ranch

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: State Probe Begins Into Epstein’s New Mexico Ranch

Host: Ari Melber
Date: February 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Beat centers on significant new investigative actions related to Jeffrey Epstein, including the opening of a state probe into his notorious New Mexico ranch and fresh congressional scrutiny of figures linked to Epstein, such as billionaire Les Wexner. Ari Melber covers the latest developments in the bipartisan push for transparency around the Epstein files, discusses the implications of these revelations, explores alleged government cover-ups, tackles the Trump administration's approach to the files, and addresses renewed concerns about press freedom, culminating with a tribute to the late civil rights icon Jesse Jackson.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Congressional Pressure and the Epstein Files

• Context:

  • Les Wexner, billionaire with a “very big business relationship” with Jeffrey Epstein, is set to testify before Congress in Ohio due to his age (88).
  • Congress forced the release of more files against Trump’s wishes.
  • The files reportedly mention Wexner over 1,000 times (emails, lawsuits, DOJ/FBI records).
  • Public and bipartisan demand for accountability persists despite efforts by some to “let it go.”

• Key Highlights:

  • Congress compelled more transparency, contradicting former President Trump’s repeated calls to “leave it alone.”
  • DOJ’s handling of the files, including redactions and potential gaps in investigation, under scrutiny.

• Notable Quote:

  “Congress made him release them. That’s the story we've been following... Congress said no, there's more to do.”—Ari Melber (00:44)

  • [00:44 - 08:57]: Deep dive into Wexner’s ties, Congress’s persistence, and the tension between public inquiry and obstruction.

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2. New Mexico State Probe and Expanding Accountability

• Development:

  • New Mexico has launched a new probe into Epstein’s ranch, where survivors allege abuse.
  • Global consequences: Columbia sanctions two linked individuals; business allies face pushback and asset forfeiture.

• Impact:

  • Transparency efforts are now prompting real investigations and reputational consequences, even without new indictments.

• Notable Quote:

  “Information, investigation and public pressure can lead to investigations that otherwise were not going to happen.”—Ari Melber (07:20)

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3. Analysis with Civil Rights Lawyer Nancy Erica Smith

• Topics:

  • The stonewalling by the DOJ and ongoing obfuscation under the Trump administration.
  • Rep. Thomas Massie (R) praised for persisting despite threats; called it the “Epstein administration.”
  • The need for investigation into apparent blackmail in Epstein-Wexner communications.
  • DOJ’s refusal to investigate further tips from the files criticized.

• Key Exchanges/Timestamps:

  • Redactions and threats:

    “Thomas Massie is a hero here and he's paying for it. ... DOJ has violated the Epstein Transparency Act.”—Nancy Erica Smith (11:24)

  • On Wexner-Epstein email implying mutual secrets (“Not so veiled threat, actually, of blackmail”):

    “To me, it looks like blackmail should be investigated.” —Nancy Erica Smith (14:24)

  • Political environment:

    “He [Trump] created this concern by talking about the Epstein files all the time as if it was part of the ridiculous conspiracy…”—Nancy Erica Smith (14:24)

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4. Democratic Strategy and Congressional Oversight

• Shift in Democratic Approach:

  • Discussion with strategist Che Koman Durie on how Democrats are preparing to wield oversight tools more aggressively if they gain power, possibly including impeachments and direct targeting of Trump rather than focusing on less-known cabinet officials.

• Key Insights:

  • Democrats have moved from viewing Trump as an aberration to recognizing the enduring threat of Trumpism (“authoritarian movement”).
  • Impeaching high-profile figures like Trump is politically more viable than targeting lesser-known officials.

• Notable Quotes:

  “Trump and the Trump movement is a real movement. It is an authoritarian movement that is now on offer to American voters, and that requires a response that is commensurate to, to the threat to democracy.” —Che Koman Durie (18:44) “Donald Trump is in charge. ... aim their target directly at him. That is what's most politically viable.”—Che Koman Durie (21:19)

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5. Government Censorship & Colbert’s Showdown with the FCC

• The Story:

  • Trump’s FCC reportedly pressured CBS to block an appearance by Texas Senate candidate James Talarico on Stephen Colbert’s show, seeking to suppress an interview before the primary.
  • Colbert and crew were told not only to drop the interview but not to even discuss the censorship—a demand Colbert defied live on air.

• Key Moments/Timestamps:

  • Colbert refuses to comply:

    “We were told in no uncertain terms by our network’s lawyers...that we could not have him on the broadcast...Let's talk about this.” —Stephen Colbert (27:39)

  • Colbert’s on-air rebuke:

    “Donald Trump’s administration wants to silence anyone who says anything bad about Trump on TV because all Trump does is watch TV.” —Stephen Colbert (28:58)

• Analysis with Juanita Liver:

  • She praises Colbert’s whistleblowing on government-corporate capitulation.

    “Colbert rang the alarm loudly and publicly, and he did not capitulate proactively. That is essential here...” —Juanita Liver (30:37)

  • The Streisand Effect in play: Attempted censorship increased attention.

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6. Tribute to Civil Rights Leader Jesse Jackson

• News:

  • Jesse Jackson dies at 84; remembered for legacy alongside MLK, modernizing civil rights activism, presidential runs, and democratizing the Democratic Party.

• Key Insights from Reverend Al Sharpton:

  • Detailed Jackson’s threefold impact: preserving civil rights laws, making the Democratic Party more inclusive, and inspiring the next generation of leaders.
  • Jackson’s emphasis: The cycles of history involve both progress and pushback; perseverance is vital.

• Notable Quotes:

  “He taught us that...those of us that learned that or a lot of what we were able to do with his help. He was always there till he couldn't be there anymore.” —Rev. Al Sharpton (40:00) “He would always say to me, the cycles of history are up and down. ... Just hang in there till you reach your goal. And I think that's why he always said keep hope alive.” —Rev. Al Sharpton (43:50) “Look at what people were up against in the past and take some inspiration from that. ... And they won anyway.” —Ari Melber/Rev. Al Sharpton (44:08)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• “Congress made him release them... Congress said no, there's more to do.” — Ari Melber [00:44]
• “Thomas Massie is a hero here and he's paying for it. ... DOJ has violated the Epstein Transparency Act.” — Nancy Erica Smith [11:24]
• “To me, it looks like blackmail should be investigated.” — Nancy Erica Smith [14:24]
• “Trump and the Trump movement is a real movement. ... requires a response that is commensurate to the threat to democracy.” — Che Koman Durie [18:44]
• “We were told in no uncertain terms by our network’s lawyers...we could not have him on the broadcast...Let's talk about this.” — Stephen Colbert [27:39]
• “Donald Trump’s administration wants to silence anyone who says anything bad about Trump on TV because all Trump does is watch TV.” — Stephen Colbert [28:58]
• “Colbert rang the alarm loudly and publicly, and he did not capitulate proactively. That is essential here...” — Juanita Liver [30:37]
• “He taught us that...those of us that learned that or a lot of what we were able to do with his help. He was always there till he couldn't be there anymore.” — Rev. Al Sharpton [40:00]
• “He would always say to me, the cycles of history are up and down. ... Just hang in there till you reach your goal. And I think that's why he always said keep hope alive.” — Rev. Al Sharpton [43:50]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Epstein-Wexner Congressional Probe: [00:44 - 08:57]
• New Mexico State Probe Announcement: [07:00]
• Interview with Nancy Erica Smith: [10:32 - 15:59]
• Democratic Congressional Tactics (w/ Che Koman Durie): [17:38 - 22:45]
• FCC/Colbert Censorship Clash: [25:02 - 31:36]
• Juanita Liver’s Analysis: [30:37 - 34:48]
• Tribute & Discussion: Jesse Jackson's Legacy (w/ Rev. Al Sharpton): [37:09 - 44:31]

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Conclusion

This episode highlights the persistent battle for transparency, accountability, and democratic norms in the face of entrenched power and new attempts at suppression. From renewed investigations into high-profile figures connected to Epstein, to governmental attempts at media censorship, and the historical context provided by the passing of Jesse Jackson, The Beat underscores both the gravity of current political battles and the enduring nature of struggles for justice and free expression.

Transcript

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[Ari Melber]

Easy50OFF welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melber, and we are following actual investigative developments in how Congress is dealing with the Epstein files. There's a billionaire, and if you don't know his name, you certainly know his business background. Les Wexner will be grilled tomorrow. This is part of what has become a bipartisan rebuke to Donald Trump over and over on the Epstein files. He said, no new files. Congress made him release them. That's the story we've been following. He said, let it go. It's an old story. Congress said, no, there's more to do. And so it stays in the news because of these actual investigative developments. Now, Wexner had a long and very big kind of business relationship with Epstein. The question is what kind of business? But tens of millions of dollars were exchanged. This deposition will occur in Ohio. That's part of an accommodation of the witness, who is 88 years old. Now, when I mentioned business, what these two men did in business is part of what's invest under investigation. So on the one hand, we could tell you that Wexner was a successful businessman, a billionaire, and that he was also a benefactor of Epstein that he helped him find financially. And maybe that's all there was to it. We want to be careful and follow the facts, but lawmakers, investigators and independent journalists have raised the question of just why so much of Wexner's money ended up in Epstein's pockets. At one point, Epstein was managing Wexner's finances. Then they did sever ties, and that was in 2007, as more heat came on Epstein. What we're learning from the files, though, is that Wexner is in there over a thousand times. Emails Lawsuits that seem to involve potentially both of them. And the DOJ has even modified some of the redactions to the 2019 FBI file that showed they were looking at whether Wexner had exposure related to the crimes they were investigating. Epstein, for now, we want you to understand what Wexner has said, and this is prior to even the new files release. He maintains that they had a kind of professional relationship and that ultimately he became disenchanted with what he viewed as Epstein's failures or misconduct with regard to finances. Now, Wexner will be only the second person to speak before Congress since the files were released. You can see a lot of the pressure on many of these individuals we've been tracking while Trump Commerce Secretary Lutnick, caught lying to minimize his visit to Epstein island, remains in the Cabinet. So there is a kind of a clash between accountability for some and not others. Congress has some efforts to investigate, and we've seen that in a, at times bipartisan way, while there's also been an effort to distract or look at certain individuals. For example, the calls to investigate powerful men, some of whom might be implicated in this, are a long ways from going after Hillary Clinton. Here's what she's saying. What we're seeing, I think it's fair to say, is a continuing cover up by the Trump administration. There's something about this administration's attitude toward this which I think really leads us to conclude they have something to hide. They are slow walking it. They are redacting the names of men who are in it. They are stonewalling legitimate requests from members of Congress. That has nothing to do with us. Something is going on. They know it, I know it. That's Hillary Clinton, who of course, as I mentioned, has been targeted by some of the Republicans. Although when you go looking for rich, powerful men who may have gotten away with something, she wouldn't really be on the list, not based on the files or the information we have now. Republican Thomas Massie, who has been really seen as a good faith bipartisan collaborator here working with Democrats to get to the bottom of this, says, on any given day, I need one or two of my own co conspirators to get something done. Once we get past Republican primaries, I think you're going to see defections. That's his reference to the fact that Trump still has, of course, more sway in primary season, but there is a lot more that they can do if they get the votes. Now, what's happening out there, what has happened in places where we've seen that the Files show prosecutors and investigators might have been pressured out of doing a full investigation or fallen down on the job. And the things we've shown you on our timeline. Well, this is interesting. The state of New Mexico now has a new probe into Epstein's ranch. There survivors have said they were abused. That ranch has been known for a long time. What we're seeing is how information, investigation and public pressure can lead to investigations that otherwise were not going to happen. Columbia has now sanctioned two individuals that they think helped Epstein's girlfriend gain admission there again through how his largesse may have distorted things long far away from his own accused sex crimes, but just the sort of way he wielded influence. Two prominent business people facing consequences over their ties to Epstein, who we reported, for example, on the Wasserman issue. His ties to Maxwell, not to any alleged crimes per se, have led to him having to sell off his entire talent agency. Others across the spectrum facing subpoenas or these pressure points we've shown you. The New York Times asks, why didn't anyone say something? And that what we're learning again from this unusual transparency effort shows how a group can collude with dark secrets if they serve their interest. The price of admission to Epstein's world was the Times says, silence. And so when you look at this entire issue, it has really gone topsy turvy. It started as something that was so under investigated with so little accountability that that became part of the scandal. And the question over years, would he really get away with it forever? And then of course, he was. Ultimately, Mr. Epstein was indicted. He died in prison awaiting trial. Maxwell later indicted and convicted. So you had some baseline accountability, though very delayed. And the idea was, well, leave it there. And Donald Trump repeatedly said, leave it there. It's old news, nothing more to see here. But he was overruled by some of his own supporters who for whatever their reasons, wanted to get to the bottom of this and agitated, put pressure on Congress, which then late, but finally came up with this bipartisan effort to get the files out. And one of the questions, remember, it's very easy to stand in judgment and look at things in hindsight, what they call, of course, Monday morning quarterbacking. But what you see now is that there was important information in the files. Doesn't mean it's going to lead to a bunch of indictments or convictions. We have a process that we have to follow in this country under the rule of law, even if some wish it otherwise. But what I showed you in the accountability, that having learned information about some of these individuals, other people in the public marketplace of accountability said, no, I don't want to be in business with them, or no, that's not okay, or no, short of indictment, which is a government process. The public said, we are reacting. And that's in the early days, as I've told you. We and other outlets have been going through these files. It takes time to do it right. There are millions of revelations. We are seeing a move for accountability. And this isn't a screenplay, this isn't a movie. If it were a movie, you'd say it's a little rich that there's accountability everywhere. But in the White House of the president who claimed in his most recent election that he wanted to get to the bottom of this, and finding that the bottom or the involvement of this includes people in his own cabinet, he won't lift a finger to even publicly say they shouldn't have consorted with Epstein, let alone fire them, which is a far, far lower level than whether you're ever going to have the wider calls for accountability as mentioned. So there is something happening and the information is having real world consequences. It's just everywhere. But in Trump's administration, we're going to get into exactly these issues with civil rights lawyer Nancy Erica Smith when we return in about 90 seconds.

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[Ari Melber]

The names of billionaires, the names of folks that could be co conspirators that helped fund Jeffrey Epstein that could have actually been involved in the terror and rape, as we know, abuse of women and children. Some of those names continue to be redacted and protected. Lawmakers speaking out as they prepare to put one of Epstein's at least associates, clients under oath. I'm joined by Nancy Erica Smith, a civil rights attorney who's represented numerous victims of sexual harassment and assault. Welcome back. When you look at this and the Congress going forward, this is the continued work that Trump didn't want for his own reasons. But he was very public in saying that. And this sort of reflects a late effort to get more information, whatever the relationship may be with Wexner. Your thoughts on this work, however tardy?

[Nancy Erica Smith]

Well, I think that Thomas Massie is a hero here and he's paying for it. He's described the threats he's receiving. He calls this the Epstein administration, which certainly seems true. Not only has Representative Raskin told us that Trump was mentioned, there were a million hits in the three and a half million documents that have been released, but the DOJ has violated the Epstein Transparency Act. So who knows what's in the other two and a half million documents and the redactions have not been cleaned out. So it just seems that Epstein ran an international ring of trafficking young girls, information, influence and connections with the highest levels. And we see indictments in other countries and a prince is stripped of his princedom or whatever. So why aren't we moving forward and why is it so difficult to get Congress to act? Well, thank goodness for Thomas Massie, but we don't have a Department of Justice. We can't even call it a Department of justice anymore. When Todd Blanch, Trump's former lawyer, was asked, will you investigate the tips that have not been followed up on in the files? He said, no, there's going to be no investigations because they're unfounded. Well, how do you know they're unfounded if you don' investigate them? It's, it's absurd. And meanwhile, we see this hampering. Ghislaine Maxwell asked if Todd Blanch meets.

[Ari Melber]

With her and let's, yes, let's dig into the, this new part with wexner because one question is, oh, did Epstein just get away because he was rich and powerful, could hire the best lawyers. As you know, there are individuals who've hired pricey lawyers and not gotten away with as much as Jeffrey Epstein. So another investigative question. I want to be very precise about this. Not proven. Pam Bondi said they didn't see any leads to go after potential blackmail, which could be of powerful people or even people inside the government. And now we have the files, and they might paint a different picture. And Congress is going to make its own judgment. So I want to read from again, what we're only learning because it's come out without presupposing the whole story. But illicit trysts is how the New York Times headlined their coverage of this part of the files and what they call, quote, leverage with the wealthy, quoting what we now have learned, where you have Epstein telling Wexner who's going under oath tomorrow. You and I had gang stuff for over 15 years. I owe a great debt to you, as frankly, you owe to me. And Epstein says he has no intention of, of divulging any confidence of ours. I'm curious how you, as someone who's dealt in these fields, interpret that. Would investigators want to look at that as just a statement, hey, we're good, we're secrets are safe. Or sometimes people say those things as a veiled threat. Is that worth looking into when he's under oath tomorrow?

[Nancy Erica Smith]

I definitely think that is a veiled threat. Not so veiled threat, actually, of blackmail. And there are other emails like that where I'll always keep your secrets. There are other emails in the three and a half million that have been released. So, yes, to me, it looks like blackmail should be investigated. And we also have Trump on the birthday card saying, may every day be a wonderful secret. What secret? What has to be kept secret here? So not investigating what's going on means we don't have a doj. Thank goodness we have Congress waking up a little bit. I don't have a whole lot of confidence in Mike Johnson's Congress, House of Representatives right now, but maybe if you look at the polls, people are not real happy with the Trump administration right now. And this is a concern to people. And he created this concern by talking about the Epstein files all the time as if it was part of the ridiculous conspiracy of a Democratic pedophile ring run out of a pizza place in Washington, D.C. this in his own base. And now he has to say, I've been exonerated, which is what he said yesterday, which is completely false. Just absolutely false. So they have a problem they created.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, exactly. And validated it. And again, tomorrow we're gonna see what Congress gets out of this, but certainly leads that were not followed. Nancy, Erica Smith, thank you as always for joining us.

[Nancy Erica Smith]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

Absolutely. We have Al Sharpton coming up later. Donald Trump, big government censorship. What he and apparently cbs, his parent company, didn't want you to see.

[Stephen Colbert]

We were told in no uncertain terms by our network's lawyers, who called us directly that we could not have him on the broadcast. And because my network clearly doesn't want us to talk about this. Talk about this.

[Ari Melber]

Democrats are pushing harder and wielding more potential powers, including a partial government shutdown, to try to hold Trump accountable. And that's before the midterms, which if they win, there are already clues as to what they're going to do in governance. Subpoenas are coming if they win. That's according to a bipartisan firm that studied this discussing a tsunami of congressional oversight, including not just Trump, but how corporate America may have broken rules or even betrayed their consumers and shareholders all to cave to Trump. A strategy where Democrats say, why send a subpoena to a cabinet agency that might produce documents in three years when one to a company produces them in three weeks? Donald Trump has brought corporate America deep into his type of agenda. We will see how they react to being scrutinized that way. I am joined on a special day today. It is again, Che Day right here on the beat. Che Koman Durie, a political strategist, veteran of several campaigns, including Obama's. Did you know it was J. Day, Jay? You usually have a clue.

[Che Koman Durie]

I did not know it was Jay Day, but I am pleased to see J. Day back in force.

[Ari Melber]

Back in force. It's the same great channel. We like to believe we work just as hard. We are now Ms. Now, and we still have not only Che, but Che's cartoon visage. And not every guest, Right, gets a bespoke cartoon. You know that Che?

[Che Koman Durie]

Absolutely. And it's great that Ms. Now is choosing to adopt me and my cartoon.

[Ari Melber]

Yes, and your cartoon. So that's fun. This is, this is more about the serious politics at play. And you see this kind of excitement among some, perhaps concern, among others, about Democrats wielding those powers. How do you look at that going towards the midterms and the fact that Dems, who are so often portrayed sometimes fairly, maybe sometimes over the top as, oh, they don't fight as hard as Republicans, they are using these powers. On dhs. Our colleague Rachel Maddow has been reporting on other citizen efforts, basically treating this like the emergency that they always say it is on the campaign trail.

[Che Koman Durie]

Yeah, I think that this is going to be a stark departure from the way Democrats have handled Trump in the past. If you think about what happened under Joe Biden, there was a real belief that Trump was an aberration. There were endless number of mourning doubt columns about how Hillary had run a bad campaign. That was something a lot of Democrats believed. Joe Biden himself thought that just passing legislation would show to people that democracy worked. You could have a nonpartisan, apolitical figure like Merrick Garland as AG and that would be something reassuring to people. All of those bets were completely wrong. What Democrats now realize is Trump and the Trump movement is a real movement. It is a real force in America. It is an authoritarian movement that is now on offer to American voters, and that requires a response that is commensurate to, to the threat to democracy.

[Ari Melber]

Democrats have often been associated with preserving the traditions and norms. Traditionally, you don't start at the most escalated version of oversight. But the Trump folks now, across two terms, have said, we're not going to comply with subpoenas, we're going to resist. They had people who were even willing to go to jail rather than show up and do an interview where you don't have to answer the questions, even you could take the fifth, et cetera. And so I'm curious how you think that could change as well, because there is obviously a case for impeaching multiple cabinet officials. When you look at the blatant admitted targeting of political opponents, which is unconstitutional, the allegations around grift and crypto. I asked Ty Cobb about this, who represented the Trump White House, and he said, in Bondi's case, of course, there's a substantive case to impeach her if they win the midterms.

[Che Koman Durie]

Certainly with regard to Bondi, obviously unfit.

[Ari Melber]

For office, the multitude of cases that we've had now certainly provides a wealth of evidence that could be used to.

[Che Koman Durie]

Impeach Pam Bondi, Kristi Noem, you know.

[Ari Melber]

Who'S supervising the execution of American citizens and lying about them, all of those people should be impeached for sure. One, substantively, should Democrats do that? I mean, if, if Bondi is fit for office and they just sleep on that, I don't know what message that sends. And then two, as the political strategist you are, is that something they should actually be running on or just get to it substantively if they win?

[Che Koman Durie]

Yeah, look, substantively, there is certainly a case to impeach PAM Bondi. That's 100%. Personally, I think that should happen. Pam Bondi probably should be disbarred. A lot of the people underneath her. There will be legal discussions about whether they should be disbarred for what they have done. Kristi Noem, Pete Hegset for the Signal Chat, et cetera. There is a substantive strong case for the impeachment of any number of officials in Trump's orbit. However, I will say, politically, there is something I remember from 05 06, which is there was a move among Democrats to impeach Donald Rumsfeld for the failures of the Iraq war. Several Democrats said we should impeach Donald Rumsfeld for the Iraq war. Politically, it went nowhere. The reason was that the American people held George W. Bush responsible for the Iraq war. They did not hold Donald Rumsfeld responsible. They didn't even know who Donald Rumsfeld was. In their minds, George W. Bush was in charge. He was the person who should be held accountable for the failures of the Iraq war. And I think that's the same case here. Donald Trump is in charge. And yes, gloves should be off coming in terms of Donald Trump, but the American people and Democrats have to face, you know, aim their target directly at him. That is what's most politically viable.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, it's interesting nuance. And though those of us who follow the news closely have all these cabinet members names, you know, top of mind, Bondi, Lutnick, it's like shorthand. As someone who's done campaigns, you're reminding everyone that when you talk about the voters, particularly the ones that might be on the margins, not just the hardcore, you might have to come at them with a message that resonates, not, hey, let me tell you about someone you've never heard of. And then substantively again, Tykov telling us as a Trump White House veteran that legally there is the impeachable case there because she's got open probes in that they admit are abuse of power. They admit they're going after their opponents, not following the evidence. So pretty striking, Che. Thank you. I'm gonna tell folks Stephen Colbert says they tried to censor him. We're gonna show you that interview next.

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[Che Koman Durie]

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[Ari Melber]

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[Ari Melber]

To find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail]. Turning to a clash over free speech in this week's primary race for Texas Senate, where candidates of course do all kinds of media. And yet the Trump administration was caught trying to block one Democratic candidate, James Talarico, from appearing on Stephen Colbert's show. Trump's FCC was pressuring cbs, which notably is now owned by the MAGA allied Ellison family, to censor the interview from airing at all. Early voting in that Texas primary began just today. This full race will transpire on March 3rd. Now, let me just tell you straight up what's happening here. Across its 90 years, with oversight from both parties, the FCC didn't meddle in late night comedy or the attendant political interviews. Now Trump is getting the FCC to try, given his apparent fixation with the shows on late night that still criticize him, he lost that bid to get Jimmy Kimmel canceled, something that we saw was terribly unpopular to the point that Disney was losing subscriptions and money over it. Now he appears to have achieved a version of this censorship of one interview, a clear bid to try to control what Americans see going into a campaign season at Least in that area, that state. Now, let me remind you, independent outlets do not cave to this kind of government censorship, including conservative independent outlets. Whenever you think of Rupert Murdoch and his Wall Street Journal, that paper is fighting, not settling, a similarly far fetched effort by Donald Trump to use in this case the court's civil powers instead of the FCC to go after reporting which the Journal says was accurate about Trump. New York Times also fighting those efforts, as do independent TV outlets. But on this one, the Trump administration didn't go after the New York Times or an outlet that might be independent. He very clearly, through the fcc, picked an allied media empire that could be expected to play ball. CBS lawyers allegedly tried to tell Colbert that the interview had to be censored and that any discussion about that censorship must also be censored. This is a brand new story. So how do we know this? Mr. Colbert, who is leaving at the end of his contract, publicly refused, leading to this unusual presentation on his show.

[Stephen Colbert]

We were told in no uncertain terms by our network's lawyers who called us directly that we could not have him on the broadcast. And because my network clearly doesn't want us to talk about this, this. Let's talk about this. And this doesn't just affect interviews. The rules forbid any candidate appearance, including by voice or picture. That's right. I am absolutely not allowed to show a photo of Texas State Representative James Talarico.

[Ari Melber]

And.

[Stephen Colbert]

Because that's not him, that's a stock photo we found when we googled, not James Talarico. Carr said he was thinking about dropping the exception for talk shows because he said some of them were motivated by partisan purposes. Well, sir, you're chairman of the fcc, so fccu.

[Ari Melber]

Colbert mixing his humor with what is obviously a serious rebuke of corporate capitulation at his own network with his own bosses. He noted, of course, the buck stops with a president who's now trying to wield or abuse his power to blatantly censor and attack Americans. Free speech.

[Stephen Colbert]

Let's just call this what it is. Donald Trump's administration wants to silence anyone who says anything bad about Trump on TV because all Trump does is watch tv.

[Ari Melber]

Okay? Now, if the Trump administration got its way, this new censorship might have even stayed secret. Colbert says he defied those corporate lawyers muzzling him, discussing what happened, even though they obviously did prevent, he says, the interview from airing on cbs. Many other efforts might continue to stay secret, however, because more companies are being sold to Trump allies and reshaped. And Mr. Colbert has decided to risk a lot for this line of work and comedy and free speech. Not everyone in entertainment and culture may do that. Now. He did get the interview published online. I'm actually going to show you, our viewers, a highlight of that in a moment. We are not backing down from any implied or other effort to censor this kind of stuff. We also operate on cable. The FCC claims it has more leverage on network. But as I mentioned, most networks and Rupert Murdoch himself don't usually bow this quickly, this secretively to this effort to censor you hearing from candidates and public officials. As for the interview, we'll watch it together with our guest MSNOW analyst JuanitiLiver, also host of Archival A history podcast. Welcome back. We'll show that highlight as promised in a second. But your view of this and how Colbert decided to blow the whistle, not.

[Juanita Liver]

Everyone does like that was the perfect behavior. Ari Colbert rang the alarm loudly and publicly, and he did not capitulate proactively. That is essential here because what that means is not only did he still do the interview and post it on YouTube, but he still dedicated a full eight or nine minutes of his show to talking about the very person that they did not want. And in between his jokes, he said, this is very serious, deadpan to camera. I think that that is a behavior that I hope regular people apply to their daily lives. I mean, we've seen it in Minnesota with the people coming out and protesting in their communities against the ramp up of ice. We've seen it with the journalists targeted by the federal government, one, even live streaming as agents were banging on her door. I think it's important that people understand this is a model that they can follow and absolutely should follow. Ari.

[Ari Melber]

Right? And you look at this, and any one of these can be sort of fly specked, right? There are people who might say, oh, well, they think late night does too much politics anywhere. There might be other people who say, oh, Mr. Lemon, we've covered his coverage. Well, they didn't like that he was in the church. But you take it all together and you see you have an administration that will very clearly try to secretly, so you won't hear about it. And publicly, if they get caught, abuse the government to decide what's on tv, to decide whether you hear other views and indict journalists now, two and counting, along with a lot of the other targets they've shown. And so with that in mind, they are not censoring the video from getting out on the Internet. Colbert came up with that as a step, and there's reasons why he's within the CBS structure. And he says they blocked him. They say, well, no, they just had an alternative equal time plan. But here's some of that interview that the Trump administration wanted to stop.

[Stephen Colbert]

Do you mean to cause trouble?

[Ari Melber]

I, I, I, I think that Donald Trump is worried that we're about to flip Texas and corporate media executives are selling out the First Amendment to curry favor with corrupt politicians. And a, a threat to any of our First Amendment rights is a threat to all of our First Amendment rights. On the one hand, it looks like just two people having a conversation that might have gotten less attention if they didn't try to censor it by the government. On the other hand, what do you see of this sort of, this meta moment we're in where the discussion warning against that censorship is itself already, we know now, censored from the main platform where that show airs, which is CBS tv.

[Juanita Liver]

It shows the threat of someone like Stephen Colbert, Ari, someone who is willing to buck the system as the Trump administration probes for fractures within the pillars of democracy, including within media and the press. Look, this is something I've said over and over again. They've been on the long term recon mission since Trump's first term where he threatened FCC action or taking licenses from networks to air back in his first term. And now they're escalating. And this FCC chair is not going to stop. I think this is just the latest example of that escalation because he was called before a Senate hearing committee last December, Ari, where he did not back down and did not show any willingness to change course when questioned about his threats to media outlets and corporations. Now, it was so bad that even Senator Ted Cruz in that hearing said, you know, the government cannot coerce a private entity for what it broadcasts and what it airs. And when Ted Cruz is against you, it shows just how far you're going. And I think that's the other thing about this is the public also has an opportunity to weigh in. You know, I scrolled through the comments below that video, Ari, and the, the best one that I saw that jumped out at me was like, not gonna lie. I would have skipped this, I would have skipped this if the FCC and CBS didn't try to ban it.

[Ari Melber]

It's the strategy.

[Juanita Liver]

They're drawing more attention against what they actually wanted out there. And I think this is another opportunity where the people can stand up. Because what we know is this administration will back down if the pushback gets loud enough and consistent enough from the public.

[Ari Melber]

Well, you make such an important point and the Law moves slowly. If this was contested, you'd be in weeks. The primary might be over. About whether or not the FCC can threaten the people sometimes move more quickly. And trying to squash free speech in America all the way back to our founding has never been popular. It's not popular on the right, it's not popular on the left. It's what the Trump agenda is. There's a reason they lied about it. They ran on saying, oh, he and Musk were gonna have more free speech. That was not the case. Yeah. So even they know what they're doing is unpopular. That's why they were lying about it. Now you see whether people wake up to this. And as you say, if in the YouTube comments people are like, this is boring, but I'm riding with it. That's one sign. Juanita, good to see you.

[Juanita Liver]

Good to see you, Ari.

[Ari Melber]

And as this race gets underway, we have our own programming announcement. These candidates are appearing across different shows. The Democratic candidate, Jasmine Crockett on at 9pm tonight with Jen and the individual at the center of this new censorship clash, her primary opponent, James Talarico on the Last word with Lawrence O' Donnell at 10pm Eastern. Talk about equal time. You can catch both of them if you're a Texas resident or voter watching. And as well, the Republican Sen. Always welcome to come on the beat along with both of those candidates. And I'll tell you, it'll be interesting to see whatever what else Mr. Talarico has to say given that the administration wants him, maybe both Democrats silenced if they could get their way. I'm going to fit in a break. When we come back, Reverend Al Sharpton is here.

[Jesse Jackson]

I am somebody. I am somebody. I may be poor, but I am somebody. I may be young, but I am somebody. I may be on welfare, but I am somebody.

[Ari Melber]

Reverend Jesse Jackson passed away this morning at the age of 84 after a life on the front lines of the civil rights movement, organizing and marching with Martin Luther King. He was with Dr. King when he was tragically assassinated in Memphis in 1968. Jackson made his effort to live a life and a career, building out on that legacy and work, trying to modernize it and expand it in efforts to diversify American business and then running for the highest office in the land. At a time when many viewed that as quixotic, his 1984 campaign for president was a line in the sand.

[Jesse Jackson]

Live beyond the pain of reality with the dream of a bright tomorrow. Use hope and imagination as weapons of survival and and progress. Use love to motivate you and obligate you to serve the human family. Young America dream.

[Ari Melber]

Jackson went from finishing third among Democrats that year to second the next cycle, besting big Democratic names like Gore and Biden. Those two campaigns helped register more than a million new voters and many say changed how Democrats viewed their coalition and what was possible. He used the platform to motivate people for change.

[Jesse Jackson]

Wherever you are tonight, you can make it. Hold your head high, stick your chest out. You can make gets dark sometimes but the morning comes we must never surrender. America will get better and better. Keep hope alive. Keep hope alive. Keep hope alive on tomorrow night and beyond. Keep hope alive.

[Ari Melber]

That hope was a theme when Barack Obama picked up the baton and became ultimately the first black president. The two men did have a complicated history. Jackson was seen clearly moved, overcome with emotion by Obama's victory and what it meant for both the civil rights struggle and progress in America. Former President Obama paying tribute today, sharing gratitude for Jesse's lifetime of service. He said we stood on his shoulders. I'm joined now by our colleague Reverend Al Sharpton, who is one of Jackson's closest friends and confidants, host of Politics Nation here on ms, now president of National Action Network. We can show as well the photos of you two over the years. And I know you were in touch with him and his family up until his passing. Your thoughts tonight?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Well, I think we've lost a giant who really in three ways. One, he continued the King movement by preserving the Civil Rights act of 64 that had to be preserved. It was challenged in the Reagan years and the Voting Rights Act. So he had a direct impact on social policy and our legal standards. Secondly, he democratized, I'd like to say, the Democratic Party by changing the process of proportional representation of delegates before him. And what he was able to do in negotiating after getting all those votes, if you won the primary, you took all of the delegates in the state. He said, no, you should get your delegates and it'd be proportional. The number two person keeps their delegates, which is what led to Clinton and Obama being able to not have to win every primary in order to be the nominee. And lastly, he inspired a generation behind him, people like me. I was 13 years younger than him. He was 12 years younger than King. He trained us and inspired us to keep social justice nonviolent movements going. So a lot of what we did, from Trayvon to George Floyd to now, we learned from him because he did this, what learning from Reverend Dr. King and Selma and on. And I think that it was in some ways Counter culture because there were some that didn't want to have nonviolent marching, particularly in the north, and didn't want to deal with those kinds of strategies. He taught us that and those of us that learned that or a lot of what we were able to do with his help. He was always there till he couldn't be there anymore. He was always there.

[Ari Melber]

You talk about his very direct, knowledgeable way of looking at reforming the Democratic Party. So often diversity in America is pitched in this zero sum thing. So the attacks by Trump on DEI or bad money at the super bowl as a recent example, are the idea that adding diversity takes something away. And that line, as you know, has been sold to a class of working white voters.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Right.

[Ari Melber]

But what you're telling us is that Jesse Jackson was showing, actually by diversifying itself, the Democratic Party got something it hadn't had since fdr, which is a two term president who happened to be black. How does this tradition of showing the benefit, not just that it's right or good, but it's actually good for the rest of America to beat back this racism once and for all.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

He would do it in the political realm, you're right, with Obama, but in the corporate world, he used to take me training some of us, James Meeks, Lamel, McMart, some of us how to do this. We'd go into corporate boardrooms and watch him say your margin of profit increases when you have people that can market your product and relate to the cities or the, or the townships that you're in. So he showed where it benefited them and it was the moral thing to do. The fact of the matter is affirmative action was always there. When you have nepotism in these companies and people hiring somebody's cousin or somebody's nephew, he's saying, well, we can give you qualified people that'll increase your margin or we can bring your margin down and we don't want to do that. So we can either boycott and bring your margins down or we can work together and build your companies up and build our community up because we're bringing in income to people in our communities.

[Ari Melber]

And finally with the minute or so we have left, did you get a sense in his final years whether, whether he was viewing this as a tough time, a dark time, an optimistic time?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I think that he viewed it as that cycles, he would always say to me, the cycles of history are up and down. You're going to make one step forward, they're going to push back. Don't get worried about the push back or the push forward. Just hang in there till you reach your goal. And I think that's why he always said keep hope alive.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, keep hope alive. And something that you and others and his life represents, which is, boy, you think you have it hard, as we sometimes do on any given day. And we're going through real stuff right now, no question. But look at what people were up against in the past and take some inspiration from that. And so I.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

And they won anyway.

[Ari Melber]

And they won. And I know you've been in touch with the family. So thanks to you for joining us today and our condolences to everyone.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

Thank you. Ev. We will be right back. Our last word tonight goes to civil rights activist Jesse Jackson, who passed away today. Here he was in 1963.

[Jesse Jackson]

I am that beautiful, proud. I must be respected. I must be protective. Somebody.

[Ari Melber]

The nation mourns Jesse Jackson and honors his contributions. That does it for us.

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