Texas Primary Leaves GOP Wary

Summary

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The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Texas Primary Leaves GOP Wary
Date: May 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the seismic aftermath of the Texas Republican Senate primary, where Trump-endorsed, scandal-plagued Ken Paxton defeated longtime Senator John Cornyn. Ari Melber analyzes how this surprise victory rattled the GOP, energized Democrats, and shifted the Senate race calculus—not only in Texas but nationwide. The episode features deep-dive commentary and interviews with political strategist Mark McKinnon, Rev. Al Sharpton, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, and Rep. Jason Crow. The episode closes with discussions on government corruption, Trump's unconventional fundraising, and the persistent public intrigue regarding UFOs.

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Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. GOP Turmoil in Texas: The Paxton Primary Upset

• Background: In a shocking twist, embattled Trump favorite Ken Paxton unseated the establishment choice, John Cornyn, in the Texas Republican Senate primary.
• Ari's Framing: Ari describes this as a rare instance where Democrats, Trump, and the press align: “If you look at the Trump side wanting the long shot candidate, the Democrats want the long shot candidate, and they agreed it’s only the Senate Republicans who are closer to the cost who are freaking out.” (01:34)
• Implications:
  • This points to deep disunity in the GOP, with voters acting independently of party elites.
  • The “low-quality candidate” effect: could Paxton sink GOP hopes in a traditionally red state?
  • Cook Political Report now rates the race more competitive; Republicans forced to spend millions defending a riskier nominee.

Notable Moment:

“Apparently if Trump says he wants to go with the candidate that’s more likely to lose the Senate, a lot of voters are going along with that. That itself is interesting.”
—Ari Melber (02:40)

Insight:

• Paxton’s legal baggage (mugshot, acquitted impeachment, corruption allegations) provides a potent contrast for Democrats.

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2. Democratic Enthusiasm & the “Tallarico Effect”

• Rising Star: James Tallarico, the Democratic nominee, gains momentum and money after viral interviews and Republican disarray.
• Bipartisan Frustration: “I can’t tell you the number of people who come up... and whisper I’m not a Democrat, like they’re in the witness protection program—including a lot of people who voted for President Trump in 2024.” (04:57)
• Donor Surge: Negative attention (like the attempted FCC silencing of Tallarico) has rallied support from progressives and independents.
• Mark McKinnon’s View:
  • Historical context: Dems haven't won statewide in TX for over 30 years, but this is different; Tallarico is “an exceptional candidate” while Paxton is the “worst imaginable” GOP pick.
  • “More Democrats voted in this primary than Republicans did in Texas. That's what really got my attention.” (09:40)
  • Even Republican insiders are not enthusiastic: “I’m not yet ready to say I’m voting for Tallarico, but I’m absolutely not voting for Ken Paxton.” (10:43)

Notable Quote:

"Stack that up with a candidate who couldn’t have greater baggage than Ken Paxton... Democrats are cranked up whatever happens on the Republican side."
—Mark McKinnon (09:28)

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3. Political Strategy & Texas’s Changing Landscape

• Tallarico vs. Beto: Lessons learned from Beto O’Rourke’s near-miss: avoid nationalizing the race; focus on Texas values and issues.

• Al Sharpton’s Take:

  • Emphasizes populist economic pain—gas prices, affordability—as factors bolstering Tallarico.
  • Faith politics: “They don’t have the flag and the Bible against Tallarico... it’s hard to put the Bible in the hands of Paxton.” (11:45)
  • Tallarico's authenticity sets him apart from performative or scandal-wracked Republicans.

• Murdoch Media Weighs In: The Wall Street Journal also warns that Paxton's nomination could alienate moderates, giving Dems a real opening.

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4. National Fallout: Republican Brand & Trump’s Influence

• Grassroots Blowback: GOP incumbents face tough questions about corruption and their fealty to Trump’s agenda—even in deep red states (ex: Nebraska town hall confrontations).

• Trump’s Priorities: As the midterm outlook worsens, Trump signals indifference:

  “I don’t care about the midterms.” (07:08)

• Ari’s Context: Trump may feign political nonchalance for foreign policy leverage, but this is risky for his own party at home.

• Republican Dilemma: By rallying behind “low-quality” candidates, Trump may be weakening GOP midterm prospects—even if his personal political brand remains strong.

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5. The “Rogan Primary” and Media Moments

• Tallarico’s Media Savvy: Gains exposure—and some centrist and conservative credibility—on Joe Rogan’s influential podcast.

• Al Sharpton’s Analysis:

  • Notes Tallarico’s sincerity and ability to communicate across divides: “He comes off like he means what he’s saying... even Rogan had to be delicate.” (17:00)
  • Highlights a generational, personality-driven contrast with both Paxton and Trump.

• Wider Lessons:

  • American voters increasingly value authenticity over celebrity or party dogma.
  • The Trump effect is not transferable: “You can’t transfer cult of personality... When the storm comes down, they [Trump-endorsed candidates] hit the ground first because people are not following them—they’re following him.” (19:54, Sharpton)

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6. Extraterrestrial Interlude: UFOs, Science & Skepticism

Interview: Neil deGrasse Tyson (Astrophysicist, Author) — [24:26–33:20]

Pentagon’s UFO Document Dump

• Tyson’s Skepticism:
  • High-level testimony (“we’ve got alien body parts, crash saucers”) isn't primary evidence:

    "Testimony does not count as evidence. Evidence is evidence. If you’ve got it, bring out the alien. Is that too much to ask?" (25:06)

  • Secrecy ≠ coverup: The Pentagon investigating unexplained objects is expected.

Probability and Science

• Life on Other Planets:

  • “To suggest that we are alone in the universe would be inexcusably egocentric.” (26:48)
  • Argues for “teeming” life cosmic-wide, but no direct Earth visitation proof.

• About Disclosure:

  • Melber: “You’re making partly a mathematical argument for aliens in the universe?”
  • Tyson: “None of us are in denial of the likelihood... Life of any kind, microbial or otherwise. Yes.” (27:31–27:48)

• Pop Culture & Science:

  • Tyson muses on the impact of media and the anticlimax if aliens finally arrive and look nothing like us.

Memorable Exchange:

“Let every testimony be true, okay? Until they fork up an alien, we will always and forever have to say to each other, do you believe in aliens?... We don’t say, do you believe an octopus? We don’t say that. Cause you’ve seen an octopus.”
—Neil deGrasse Tyson (29:46)

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7. Corruption and Accountability: “Thug Fund” and Congressional Reform

Interview: Rep. Jason Crow (D-CO) — [37:54–44:13]

Trump’s Unconventional (and Possibly Unethical) Fundraising

• White House Priorities: Melber lampoons Trump’s wrestling arena construction at the White House while the nation faces war and economic woes.
• Stock Market & Conflicts:
  • Trump’s open business entanglements as president continue to raise alarm—“not technically illegal,” but a clear break from precedent.
  • Trump Organization insists on independent management, but legal denials fail to address perception of corruption.

The “Thug Fund” Controversy

• Paying Legal Bills for January 6 Defendants:

  • Even GOP senators are furious: “I call it a payout pot for punks.”
    —Mark McKinnon (36:49)

• Democratic Response:

  • Rep. Crow outlines a new “End Corruption Caucus” with immediate, voluntary reforms: no stock trading in office, no corporate PAC money, public meeting schedules.
  • “We don’t have to pass a huge package of reform legislation. What leaders... can do is start doing things.” (37:54)

• Bipartisan Appeal:

  “This should be one of the most bipartisan things in America right now, this blowback against corruption.”
  —Rep. Jason Crow (42:42)

• Unilateral Disarmament?

  • Ari asks if Democratic self-policing puts them at a disadvantage
  • Crow: “I actually don’t buy the argument at all... You can do it and people will follow those who are leading.” (41:07)

• Humor & Humanity: Leg day analogies abound.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Ari Melber: “Democrats eyeing what they see as a closer race in Texas, the possibility of turning it blue... all thanks to Donald Trump.” (01:20)
• Mark McKinnon: “There hasn’t been a Republican elected statewide [Democrat, correction—see context] since Ann Richards... but I think something’s happening that could really make this race a possible pickup for Democrats, which is astounding to me.” (08:47)
• Al Sharpton: “They don’t have the flag and the Bible against Tallarico... it's hard to put the Bible in the hands of Paxton.” (11:45)
• Donald Trump: “I don’t care about the midterms.” (07:08)
• Neil deGrasse Tyson: “Testimony does not count as evidence. Evidence is evidence. If you’ve got it, bring out the alien. Is that too much to ask?” (25:06)
• Rep. Jason Crow: “There are very few people who actually walk the talk, right? So let’s see it. Do you trade stocks in office or not? Do you accept corporate PAC money or not?” (38:51)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:00–04:29 — Texas GOP primary fallout, Paxton’s baggage, and Democratic response.
• 08:47–15:11 — Mark McKinnon and Al Sharpton dissect Texas politics, Tallarico’s opportunity, and the GOP’s strategic blunder.
• 16:08–19:54 — Media coverage, the “Rogan primary,” and analysis of Tallarico's persona.
• 24:26–33:20 — Neil deGrasse Tyson on the Pentagon’s UFO files and scientific perspectives on extraterrestrial life.
• 35:29–39:48 — Ari and Jason Crow on the Trump “Thug Fund,” corruption perceptions, and anti-corruption reforms.
• 41:07–43:53 — Crow addresses challenges and incentives for genuine Congressional reform; calls for bipartisan accountability.

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Tone, Style, and Takeaways

• Tone: Candid, slightly irreverent, deeply analytical—with numerous pop-culture and hip-hop references in keeping with Melber’s signature style.
• Underlying Theme: The vulnerabilities within traditional power structures—whether Republican machinery in Texas, the limitations of cult-of-personality politics, or systemic corruption in Washington—create openings for new coalitions and candidates.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

• This episode provides a vivid, real-time snapshot of American political upheaval: a fractured GOP reeling after choosing risk over stability, a Democratic challenger with unexpected momentum, and an electorate hungry for authenticity over personality.
• It also weaves in timely commentary on public skepticism of government, lingering trust in institutions, and unrelenting curiosity about the world—be it through the lens of politics or science.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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Sunday, June 14 from Washington, D.C. a special live taping of MSNOW's hit podcast the Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Join her as she talks with actor and author Billy Eichner. They'll explore the power of humor in the face of adversity and Eichner's new audio memoir, Billy on Billy the Blueprint with Jen Psaki live with Billy Eichner. Get your tickets today at 6th and I.org

[Ari Melber]

welcome to Beat. I'm Ari Melber and we are following all of this news. Later tonight we have a special guest, a Democrat with a plan to stop what he calls unprecedented corruption. From the Thug Fund to the self dealing, it's Democrats on the move. We've told you we're gonna bring you those kind of stories, not just what's happening from the White House. And that's coming up tonight. Also, Neil DeGrasse Tyson on Intelligent life out there somewhere. His new book, Take Me to youo Leader, the Trump Pentagon dropping those UFO files. He is always a great guest to have and he's coming up live tonight. We begin with Republicans concerned though that Donald Trump is doing exactly what the Democrats want, at least in Texas, which is not a usual headline. Democrats eyeing what they see as a closer race in Texas, the possibility of turning it blue, which would be critical to their math to try to take back the Senate. All thanks to Donald Trump. Indeed, there was a headline in a conservative outlet saying this is the one time that both parties apparently agreed. If you look at the Trump side wanting the long shot candidate, the Democrats want the long shot candidate and they agreed it's only the Senate Republicans who are closer to the cost who are freaking out. So we have this scandal ridden Trump endorsed very conservative candidate Ken Paxton who beat the long term, long time statewide ballot. John Cornyn, he's been on that ballot as a senator across over 20 years. He's been on that ballot for other statewide races. This is a sign, among other things, that even in a red MAGA place like Texas, they Are the voters mad at Senate Republicans? They are not mad necessarily in the Republican primary at Trump specifically, but they ousted a longtime Republican. They're not taking orders from the Republican Party. And apparently if Trump says he wants to go with the candidate, that's more likely to lose the Senate. A lot of voters are going along with that. That itself is interesting. Meanwhile, Paxton's Democratic opponent, James Talarico, posting the gentleman's mugshot. Paxton, we should note, did settle what was a federal corruption case against him. So legally, he went through the process long enough to get the mug shot. So it's public record. But in fairness to him, he's not in prison, he wasn't convicted. We should also note, though, that in the constitutional process in the state of Texas, which is pretty conservative, he was impeached when serving as Texas Attorney general for alleged offenses that alarmed at least that largely red state. But again, in fairness, I will tell you he was ultimately acquitted. So legally, he's got the open lane to run politically. Almost nobody, including Senate Republicans, thought that this mugshot impeached individual was their best chance. Now, Democrats also are drawing the link to other times when we see Trump seize on and support people that the party said would lose, who went on to lose. Walker, Lake, Moore. If you don't remember all those names, that's because they lost. And most people don't sit around remembering the losers of campaigns. They were on the scene for a couple months and then, despite their Trump endorsement, were not heard from again, not in federal government. Meanwhile, the Cook Political Report, which is kind of a nonpartisan bible because of the Trump move here and because Trump's candidate is in, they are now lowering the odds that Republicans win with Paxton. They thought it would have been better with, as I mentioned, the other guy. Meanwhile, the official Republican Senate campaign arm, which was back in Cornyn, now trying to walk back its many attacks on Paxton. The Internet, though, might remember.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

This is the sound of Texas and this is how it sounds under Ken Peck's.

[Mark McKinnon]

Shots Fired.

[Ari Melber]

Shots Fired. Those are just some of the memorable attacks. The Democrat Talarico just did a newsworthy interview with Lawrence o' Donnell where they discussed Paxton's baggage.

[Democratic Supporter]

I can't tell you the number of, of people who come up to me at the end of these events and whisper I'm not a Democrat, like they're in the witness protection program, including a lot of people who voted for President Trump in 2024.

[Ari Melber]

That is the sound of a different kind of candidate. You also might remember some have called him a Colbert Democrat because he had that big newsworthy interview on Colbert which then the government of the Trump administration basically tried to silence under abuse of FCC laws, which. And sometimes this happens, which ended up drawing a lot more attention. So support and even online donations to Talarico. Now, is he going to get a bigger airing and hearing now? Certainly looks like it. And that dynamic. I mentioned that Republican voters are mad. That doesn't mean they've all turned on Trump. I'm only going to tell you what the numbers show. We're not getting ahead of ourselves with what's happening. But the fact that they're mad and mad at Senate Republicans and that 100 million was spent in this race shows the party is not exactly united. A minimum. Take Nebraska, a very conservative place where Republican lawmaker was getting an earful from constituents with some backlash for the Trump agenda.

[Mark McKinnon]

Why do you continue to protect the pedophiles and Trump's DOJ as they continue to break the law?

[Ari Melber]

What are you going to do about the rampant corruption occurring all over the Trump administration? I have a question about Congress's approval of wars. Where are you stepping in?

[Mathnasium Announcer]

How much did Doge save the taxpayers?

[Ari Melber]

I'll fact check you. How can your morals let you fall into like with Trump? That's some of the back and forth. Even in red areas where people are even holding town halls, many Republicans have been avoiding them or carefully vetting them. And as the midterms look bad for the Republicans in the House and worse getting worse in the Senate, although the math would still be on their side, they have 53. Trump is now saying something that you don't usually hear from an incumbent president who wants to motivate his base, discussing the war. He says he doesn't care about the midterms.

[Donald Trump]

Their whole economic system is broken down. They thought they were going to outweigh me. You know, we'll outweigh him. He's got the midterms. I don't care about the midterms.

[Ari Melber]

He doesn't care about the midterms. Now, I told you, I always try to keep the fairness in the context. Imagine it's not Trump. You could imagine a different president making a statement like that for foreign policy reasons, trying to say, hey, this other country thinks that I'm under the gun. I'm not politically at home. And if that were just foreign policy, strategy might be smart. The problem for Donald Trump, of course, is it's not just that he's saying that in war diplomacy or ceasefire talks, he's acting like he doesn't care about the midterms because he keeps siding with candidates that his own party says are worse for the midterms. I want to bring in two wizened, expert, seasoned politicos. Not calling anyone old, just saying we've been around the block. I could say that about people I know and like. Reverend Al Sharpton, of course, host of Politics Nation, former presidential candidate and president of the National Action Network. And first question's obviously going to Mark. Mr. McKinnon is a longtime political strategist from Texas, knows that state well as well as national politics. If you've ever seen the Showtime show the Circus, he created it, you might remember him from George Bush's campaigns all the way back to the statewide Texas campaign and then the presidential. As for the Paxton primary win, which is the news tonight, a perfect storm is lining up for Texas Democrats, says this experienced Republican. Welcome to you, Mark. I have questions, but first, the floor is yours. You know so much about this, what happened last night.

[Mark McKinnon]

Thank you, Ari. Well, it's fascinating. I. I've worked on both sides of the fence. I actually worked for George W. Bush and Ann Richards, but Ann Richards was the last Texas governor elected 35 years ago. I remember that election because I worked in it, but there hasn't been a Republican elected statewide since. So I'm the guy who every two or four years is always pushing back when the media or people call me and say, oh, I don't know, this could be the year Blue Tide. And I always tap the brakes, but I think something different.

[Ari Melber]

You're saying Democrats have struggled there?

[Mark McKinnon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And.

[Ari Melber]

But.

[Mark McKinnon]

But there's always this notion, or there has been in recent cycles. The Beto race is a good example when he ran against Cruz. But I've always been resistant because I just know how conservative Texas is, generally speaking. So. But I think something's happening that's coming together that could really make this race a possible pickup for Democrats, which is astounding to me. I mean, first of all, you have an exceptional candidate in James Tallarico. Really just completely unique. And I tell people who may have heard whatever they've heard about him on either side, just watch a speech. He's just got a different approach, different language. He embraces values. He can out Bible the Republicans on faith issues, and it's really compelling, you know, so stack that up with a candidate who couldn't be, you know, have greater baggage than Ken Paxton. So you have, like, kind of a pure, good, you know, pastor type of character. And the guy who's had all these criminal charges against him at Bennett Peach. So I, I think you stack all that up and the fact that Democrats are enthused right now, that's what happens in midterms. It's, it's which party most enthusiastic. More Democrats voted in this primary than, than Republicans did in Texas. That's what really got my attention. So the Democrats are cranked up whatever happens on the Republican side. And I, Ari, I called a bunch of my Republican friends around the state today and here's what they said. They said, I'm not yet ready to say I'm going to vote for Talarico, but I'm absolutely not voting for Ken Paxton.

[Ari Melber]

Well, and that's the issue with what they call low quality candidates, right? You get a different trend line than the, than the state's trend line, which is still red if a candidate is low quality enough. And so you mentioned that race with Cruz and Beto where Cruz won by less than three points. What does that tell us about sort of the gap and what Talarico has to do here? And then I'll let Rev respond to you.

[Mark McKinnon]

Well, thanks. I think that's a great data point. So you look at that race in 2018 where again, everybody said, you know, there was a shot here, Democrats because they had a great candidate in Beto, but Beto really made some mistakes at the end of the campaign. He nationalized the campaign. And at the end of the day, you know, Republicans, these same friends that I talked to just couldn't handle Beto's nationalizing the race. I think that Talarico learn lessons from that race. I think he'll be a better candidate than Beto was and I think that Paxton will be a way worse candidate than Cruz. So stack that up. That's an easy three points.

[Al Sharpton]

I would totally agree with Mark on his last statement. Better candidate and worse candidate given Talarico and given Paxson. I think also you have to remember the environment in which we are having the elections with people's gas prices high, with affordability out of reach for many people. A member of our national board of National Action Network is a commissioner in Houston, Rodney Eldis. He said people are hurting. Trump, people are hurting. And I think that you can clearly look at all of the reasons that a guy like Talarin would appeal to them. And, and they don't have the flag in the Bible against Talarico. It's hard to put the Bible in the hands of Paxton. So I think that you have elements there that if they're handled right and we'll see. Could lead to a Democratic victory.

[Ari Melber]

Well, it's like Kendrick Lamar said, sometimes you gotta hide the Bible if God is watching in a big fight. But you're saying this is a Democrat who's not hiding the Bible. He's gonna run tough and strong on his face.

[Al Sharpton]

That's exactly right. And he puts it out there. And it's a state that, that matters. And it's. And he's contrasting with a guy that's been accused of several improprieties, including by his own wife. So it's not even, it's not like I'm trying to out guard you or out Jesus you, I'm this and you are that. And, and, and, and he's supported by a president who we all have questions about. But even with all that, aside with affordability and the other issues like Iran and other issues that are troubling the average Republican Texan, I think that Talarico has a good shot.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And Mark, people watching might say, having been fatigued by the losses of Democrats you mentioned in Texas, but also what you might call Trump's resilience. You know, he's not known for his honesty or his ethics, but he gets back in the ring. And so you got viewers and voters who say, okay, well, I'm hearing the same old story. I thought it was interesting that the Wall Street Journal kind of agreed with the point you raised earlier. I'd love for you to expound on it, Mark. The Journal says Trump and Democrats get Paxton, the Senate nominee. They all want it. I alluded to that earlier. But again, this is Murdoch's paper and he says the risk for Republicans is that more moderate and indie voters will be turned off by Paxton providing the opening for Tallarico, the seminarian. And state lawmakers become a fundraising force among Dems hungry for victory. Speak on that, Mark, because it overlaps with what you said. And I don't think anyone would accuse Rupert Murdoch's paper of just looking for a liberal propaganda. They seem to think this is the case.

[Mark McKinnon]

Well, yeah. Or I think it's just observing the obvious, which is Republicans should not have had to spend a dime in this state. If Cornyn were running and he were the nominee, they would turn all their attention to these other key races around the country. They've already spent 135 million and they're going to have to spend millions more to try and protect Paxton, which is going to take a whole lot more money than it would have been for corn. And so even if even. Let's Just say that Paxton won for some reason and I really think the Tall Rico's got a shot here. But in the best case scenario, it's going to drain millions and millions of dollars from races that Republicans could pick up because tout. Because Paxton's the nominee.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. I want to thank Mark McKinnon for kicking off our Texas coverage night. Rev stays here on one other point. We'll be back in just 90 seconds.

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[Ari Melber]

we're back covering the big news out of Texas where Democrats think they have a better chance of taking back the Senate. Reverend Charman is here. We've talked about Tall Rico, who I don't think is a full national name to all Democrats, but he's certainly gotten some money from activists, people who follow it closely. And he also got what some people call the Rogan primary, which matters more. Joe Rogan's influential podcast based in Texas. Take a look at this moment.

[Democratic Supporter]

I do think our challenge on my side of the aisle is how do you get to that third step of feeling disillusioned but then using that to rise and create something new? I guess all I'm pushing back on is that second step of it's always going to be this way.

[Mark McKinnon]

Right.

[Ari Melber]

It doesn't have to be this way.

[Democratic Supporter]

That is the key step.

[Al Sharpton]

Right.

[Democratic Supporter]

So you need to run for president. Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

We need someone who's actually a good

[Mark McKinnon]

person, person,

[Al Sharpton]

not bad, you know, to be able to in a state that clearly he's running to represent, to go to Rogan, who is probably revered whether I agree with it or not by people in that state and, and come out of the ring unscathed in and of itself says something about his talent as a, as a political person. But he also comes across sincere. And I think that that is the thing that is going to be something that a lot of the voters are looking at because people can kind of sense when somebody's performative or somebody's emanating from the inside and he comes off that way to where even a guy like Rogan had to like kind of be delicate, how he handled him. Cause he wasn't talking to somebody performative. Everybody knows whatever Trump is saying, even his supporters say, does he really mean that this young man comes across like he means what he's saying or he is saying what he is.

[Ari Melber]

And that goes to the wider questions. In the midterms you mentioned gas prices, economy, those are the factors that drive it. But there's always a question of politics, of whether you're fighting the last war and people who've been change agents. Obama was a pathbreaker. So apart from even the discussion around being an unusual path breaking candidate, he also broke with Democrats on foreign policy and he had a different style. And we've seen Trump, of course, whether you like it or not, broke all kinds of dishes and rules. And so you wonder if that doesn't only have to go towards entertainment, it could also go back to old school where people go, you know, whatever you think of Tallarico, he certainly doesn't come off as a clout chasing failed reality show star.

[Al Sharpton]

And he doesn't come off with someone that's just doing this for a personal agenda, ambition or power hunger. He just doesn't come off that way. And if Democrats have those candidates around the country, it can really be helpful. But I think just observing him, and I don't know him, I think he's done my show once or twice, but I think observing him, his Persona is so opposite of Paxton that the contrast is going to be interesting when they have debates because you're going to see one guy who's been accused of everything, who just comes off like a guy that's slick and another guy that seems like a young man who knows the Bible and really wants to help people. Now, whether either side is true or not is that's how they're projecting.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And to extend our this biblical mood we've been in today, the sins of the father Donald Trump are apparently sometimes forgiven more by voters in red states for Trump than his many mes. Because I showed some other people whose scandals might not have even been worse than what Trump stands accused of. But those folks I showed Walker and more and others lost.

[Al Sharpton]

No, they don't forgive others. And I think that Trump is a one time thing, I think. And what you're seeing with Trump is the cult of personality well, you can't transfer cult of personality. You can't transfer charisma. So everyone that gets caught up in that storm with that charismatic cult of personality leader doesn't understand that when the storm starts coming down, they hit the ground first because people are not following them, they're following him. And it's not only going to be true in this year, it's going to be true in 28 when he has to pass it on. Ken Vance or Rubio or whoever fill that gap that they energize people with their charisma. What Trump said half the time didn't make any political or policy sense. It was art of personality.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah.

[Al Sharpton]

And they don't have anyone else like that.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And you're putting your finger on a bigger Republican problem, which is there's a fine line between knowing the song and sounding like you're doing karaoke. And people go, mm, no, I'd rather hear the OG and if you can't carry the tune, they may not get away with it the way he did. Rev Sharpton, always good to see you, sir.

[Al Sharpton]

Always good to see you.

[Ari Melber]

Okay. Appreciate it. Up ahead, a Democrat unloading a new plan to fight the kind of corruption and just bizarre distractions we see like this kind of going on at the White House. The president thinking about wrestling instead of fighting inflation in the war. We have that top lawmaker. And why is the Pentagon releasing files that they say relate to UFOs? What's going on in this image? We're actually going to talk to one of the foremost experts in the world, Neil Degrasse Tyson. Next.

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[Ari Melber]

Can't seem to see your face. Mysterious. I'm Grace. I'm gonna call you Rocky. Thumbs up. No, that's thumbs down. We do the thumbs up.

[Mark McKinnon]

It's close enough.

[Ari Melber]

It's close enough. If you're working with an actual alien in real time. That's from the new film project Hail Mary, which gives ultimately an uplifting vision of what our first encounter with alien life could be like for humanity. And if we call that sci fi science fiction right now, we're going to do some sci fact because we have this great guest I told you about. There are renewed questions about whether there's life beyond Earth or what. The Trump Pentagon is up to, releasing a batch of documents and videos that they kind of hyped up as maybe related to UFOs. There was also some testimony from civilians and military personnel. One official said they were speechless after seeing certain flying objects. There's also this 2019 clip that has unidentified objects that appear to fly over the Persian Gulf. There's a 2024 video and people discussed this online that shows something near Syria that went. Appeared to go accelerate at a very fast rate. And from 2022, a cigar shaped object that was flying, at least according to this sort of grainy video, near US Military installations. The footage sparks, at a minimum, curiosity. Americans tend to believe when you poll them that aliens definitely or probably exist. Of course, that is fueled by so many of the movies that make us want to believe. Well, as mentioned, returning to the beat tonight is one of the people you would want in the entire world if you could discuss this. Neil DeGrasse Tyson, an acclaimed astrophysicist. His new book is Take Me to youo Leader, Perspectives on youn First Alien Encounter. Uh, you can Google it and get it wherever books are sold. Take Me to youo Leader by our friend. Welcome back.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Thanks for having me. I have one regret about that cover. Yeah, it's just people being beamed up. There should have been a cow in there.

[Ari Melber]

We should have had more than just.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, just a cow.

[Ari Melber]

One cow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Just one cow.

[Ari Melber]

That would complete the story, starting with this odd drop from the files from an administration that sometimes seems to want to be in the news or distract. We're all aware of that. You were a little skeptical of how it came out. What do we make of these files?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, I'm not surprised by them given the testimonies we've seen in Congress under oath of whistleblowers, former military personnel, former intelligence officers, all saying that they've got alien body parts and crash saucers and reverse engineered technologies. So if they're saying we have it, to then have some documents that basically say the same thing becomes less interesting to me given that we had high ranking officials saying what is fundamentally the same thing. Now what's different, of course, in recent years is you go back decades ago, the accounts of aliens were like the farmers in the back 40, revelers from the bar just let out. And so you had plausible deniability of any of those accounts. But when you have high ranking officials talking about it, then you say, okay, let me even give them that. Okay. So from my perspective as a scientist, testimony does not count as evidence. Evidence is evidence. So if you've got it, bring out the alien. Is that too much to ask, given all these files and everything else? Oh, by the way, I would expect with a trillion dollar budget or whatever it is today, the Pentagon would investigate unknown flying objects. And of course they would make them top secret. If it's top secret, it's not a cover up. Let's make that distinction clear. If it's secret, that's not a coverup, it's just secret.

[Ari Melber]

But your scientific lens for assessing the narrow question of whether aliens have been observable or close to our planet on Earth.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Ari Melber]

Which is separate from the larger question, your view is.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, the larger question. Anyone who studied the parameters would say, yeah, the universe is surely teeming with life.

[Ari Melber]

Teeming?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Why not? Given the age of the universe, given that we are made of the most common ingredients in the universe and that life got underway almost as quickly as it possibly could have in the early Earth, and our planet count of exoplanets is now rising through 6,000, and that's only in a tiny little area. We're still expanding that within our galaxy. To suggest that we are alone in the universe would be inexcusably egocentric. Or there's some hidden philosophy, be it religious or cultural, that you're ascribing to prevents it.

[Ari Melber]

Well, let me try to make sense of it simply because, you know, I'm just a country lawyer from Seattle, you are making partly a mathematical argument for

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

aliens in the universe.

[Ari Melber]

Because if the universe is that vast.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh yeah.

[Ari Melber]

And it happened once, as the number goes up, it's more likely than not that you think it would have happened again.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. None of us are in denial of the likelihood of life elsewhere in the universe. Life of any kind, microbial or otherwise. Yes.

[Ari Melber]

And yet the idea.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's a different question. Right.

[Ari Melber]

They're different Of Earth. So let me read from your book. Because you say that you have this idea of, oh, a space alien lands in front of you, take me to your leader, what do you do? And you write for the aliens who have reached Earth at all. We'd conclude they're more advanced than we are, maybe you should not seek out your actual leaders, but people of high scientific and technological expertise. As for the.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm thinking, I'm thinking, yeah.

[Ari Melber]

As for sci fi.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm sorry, am I biased? I don't know.

[Ari Melber]

As for.

[Congressman Jason Crow]

Exactly.

[Ari Melber]

As for sci fi versus sci fact. You write that the films have aliens looking like humans on the outside. And if they're identical on the inside, we ask what it means to think of them as alien at all. If visiting aliens never got ill or they never required medical attention, then they could easily be living and working among us, hiding in plain sight. What are you doing here? Other than, you know, riling us up and getting everyone excited?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm not authorized to comment further. No, no, no. I'm just saying the point of the book is look at how many. Look at how much of our literature has been given unto imagining aliens. I mean, we have crowdsourced what aliens might be like in the guise of books and films and TV series. So by the time they actually roll out the alien, it might just be anticlimactic. I would be most surprised if they pull the alien out of the back shed and it's humanoid. That would surprise you the most because most life on Earth does not resemble humans with whom we have DNA in common.

[Ari Melber]

But just to be the journalist here, your view, this book, more likely than not, it has not gotten near Earth.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What people are bringing forth as evidence, which includes a lot of testimony, you know, the I need a witness cry out in a court of law, in a courtroom, is something uttered by no scientist ever.

[Ari Melber]

Let me ask it differently. You know, this is. You're the scientist and I'm the lawyer. You don't see sufficient primary original evidence to think that they've gotten near this planet.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm going to say it. I'm going to make a stronger statement. Let every testimony be true, okay? Until they fork up an alien, we will always and forever have to say to each other, do you believe in aliens? Because it comes down to do you believe in the testimony of the people who say they've seen aliens? And we don't say, do you believe an octopus? We don't say that. Cause you've seen an octopus. But if no one had ever seen an octopus. Only a couple of dozen people. And you parade them in front of Congress. You gotta believe me. It's got eight legs and each leg has suction cups and it's got a huge smart brain and it can open jars and doorknobs and you think, okay, draw One and they draw it. It'll be a funny drawing. Right. And no one would believe it.

[Ari Melber]

Well, we do. Say, do you believe in life after love or life after Colbert? Let's take a look at your black hole science comedic moment on the finale

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

to be in the last episode. Yes.

[Ari Melber]

What is this?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Stephen, maybe I can help explain.

[Ari Melber]

What is it?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, it looks to me like a textbook case of an Einstein Rosen bridge, also known as an interdimensional wormhole. Your cancellation has created a rift in the comedy variety talk continuum, and if it grows, all of late night television could be destroyed. In reality, a wormhole doesn't suck. It's just a portal you step through. And where'd you get green? We've been watching too much Rick and Morty.

[Ari Melber]

Incredible to have you there. I know they love you. You love them. What did it feel like to do science a little bit in that moment? And what did you think of Colbert?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Just so I have a very low bar when it comes to agreeing to doing skits or showing up in a cameo. Just how low the bar went. I got called from the spongebob people, and would I show up in a cameo. And I was Neil Debass Tyson, astral fishicist. So if an artist, Capital A. So writer, producer, sculptor. If they care about science and they want to put a little extra science in and they call me, I'm there for them. I think Colbert is one of the smartest people on television, and anyone who's watched him would agree with that comment. That's not just blown air, that's real. And so I think it'll be a loss to have him no longer on late night, but I think he's bigger than late night. So he'll come up, he'll land on his feet, obviously, and he might create something bigger than anything that was canceled.

[Ari Melber]

I love that spirit. And you do think cosmically. And there is that thing that it happens in politics, it happens in the rest of the Earth sometimes, which is you try to suppress something powerful, it pops back up.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Hence the legend of the Phoenix from the ashes. Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

Let me tell you something. If I had my way, we'd just have you in here every night, talk about aliens, flag holes for an hour. People be like, what happened to the news? I'd be like, this is a version of the news.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The universe is unlimited in all it can offer a newscaster.

[Ari Melber]

I mean, by the amount of time the galaxies have existed.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Ari Melber]

Breaking news could take years.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, but also consider that your signal. Signal is in motion, moving at the speed of light in the radio bubble that surrounds Earth. So aliens would have some access to you at some point. Not the beginning, because it's the Honeymooners and Howdy Doody and other radio signals on the leading edge. But somewhere in there is an Ari Melberry.

[Ari Melber]

Well then, if I may, I'll say go get the book. Okay, get the book. And thank you, Neil. We'll be right back. War, gas, crunch. Other big problems, but your president at the White House is erecting a 90 foot tall UFC Octagon and 5,000 seats in order to host a cage fight. This is planning for Donald Trump's 80th birthday next month. Structure quite a bit larger than the White House itself. Wealthy donors are, quote, sponsoring the event, which is another way that there is sort of a new thing that didn't otherwise exist that can use money to curry favor with Trump, whether you call that the swamp as he did when he campaigned, or something more troubling as I guess in the eye of the beholder, you can see the construction zone from just feet away from the other demolition site on your screen, which used to be the East Wing, with this image right here reveals both the President's priorities while people pay more for gas and we're at war, and just the kind of chaotic situation you get when you don't have oversight and you don't have a Congress that has really enforced anything so the President can just demolish buildings and put up a wrestling site and ignore other problems. And that's, that's D.C. right now. It's not an allegory, it's what it looks like. Donald Trump has abused the levers of government, sometimes in ways that no one else thought to. For example, running an outside business while you're president is not technically illegal. But if Barack Obama wanted to keep open a law firm where he and his family and friends would get paid, they obviously would have made a lot of money. He didn't try it. And then there are other things that Democrats say may be impeachable, illegal, unconstitutional. There is now an attempt by Donald Trump to make a lot of money in the stock market in ways that has never been tried before. Whether any of that amounts to some sort of cross legal line, we don't even know yet. We don't have all the details. But he's certainly used and Democrats now say abused power to pump the companies that were learned he's trading in.

[Donald Trump]

Go out and buy a Dell computer. They make a great product. They're not looking for any publicity. He committed to 200 Boeings. I told this to Boeing and General Electric. We're going to go. The General Electric engines, which are great. Apple, a great company, Oracle will be building a $14 billion worth of cloud computing and AI infrastructure in the kingdom. I didn't know that. David, we have to talk to your father about that.

[Ari Melber]

I want you to know the Trump Organization put out a statement that insists these investments are independently managed by third party financial institutions and that they have exclusive authority over investment decisions. That is a kind of legal financial denial that doesn't address the issue of the appearance of a conflict of interest. And the contrast with most other presidents. Trump also trying to funnel money from you, the taxpayer, towards criminals who helped him with efforts to overthrow the election. That is the last straw, even for some Republicans. I think it's stupid on stilts. Someone who assaulted a police officer and admitted their guilt and now we're going to pay them for that.

[Congressman Jason Crow]

I don't think it's an appropriate use of money.

[Ari Melber]

Talks about this representation fund from the

[Congressman Jason Crow]

president of this thing.

[Mark McKinnon]

Yeah, not a big fan. I call it a payout pot for punks.

[Ari Melber]

The Republican senators were pissed. There were multiple senators yelling at the attorney General saying this feels like self dealing. This feels like Trump cut a deal with himself. Republicans say they're pissed. Democrats now want to make an anti corruption caucus that will actually do something about this beyond just Republicans claiming that they pushed back in a private meeting. Congressman Jason Crow, who's one of the new co chairs of this effort, is here with us right after this. We showed you this image of what's going on at the White House, what many say are misplaced priorities amid a war and the gas crunch and the president getting ready for his birthday with this wrestling setup. Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado is one of the leaders of this new End corruption caucus trying to actually get action on some of the issues we showed you in the lead up to this, including Republicans who say, congressmen, they're pissed at the Thug Fund. What does your new effort do?

[Congressman Jason Crow]

Yeah, well, thanks for covering, Ari. What we're trying to do is draw attention to the fact that we can start right now, today doing very simple, seemingly simple things that send a very strong message. We don't have to pass a huge package of reform legislation. What leaders who want to lead by example can do is right now just start doing things. You can swear off stock trading when you're in office. You can swear off corporate PAC money for your campaigns, as I have, as Alexandria Ocasio Cortez has done. And people should expect that of their elected officials. So let's lead by example. Let's just start doing this stuff, start inspiring some confidence in our system, and then we can start building up and doing bigger things, too.

[Ari Melber]

If the Republicans oppose the Thug Fund, and I played that sound, including Senate majority or soon, then, then why don't they stop it?

[Congressman Jason Crow]

Well, that's exactly my point, right? I mean, talk is cheap. There's a lot of people who talk about corruption, let's end corruption, let's clean up the system, let's drain the swamp, blah, blah, bl. But there are very few people who actually walk the talk, right? So let's, let's see it. You know, do you trade stocks in office or not? Do you accept corporate PAC money in your campaigns or not? Do you post your meeting schedule on your website and make it public for your constituents to see who you're meeting with, who's coming into your office? These are things that every single member of Congress literally can do today. Just go to your constituents and tell them you're going to start doing it. We don't have to pass a law, we don't have to legislate it. We can do it. So our caucus is open for business. We welcome members to come in who are willing to make those pledges start showing that we can do these things and clean up our system, starting with what we can do today.

[Ari Melber]

Right. And I get that as using the perch, the platform, the visibility, you have to draw those lines. Mitch McConnell, I want to mention about this fund, the Thug Fund, said that the top law enforcement official, that's Blanche working for Trump, wants a fund to pay people who assault cops. Utterly stupid, morally wrong. Between him and Thune and everyone else, you know, that's where it sort of, I guess, becomes a question of whether they're trying to get credit for saying they're against it without stopping it, which to anyone who's paying attention looks cynical and feckless. In fairness, of course, if they get their act together and stop it soon, then, then this might have been making the case. What do you say to the criticism that Democrats have faced in the past that it ends up being unilateral disarmament if it is just self policing? We've seen that in the redistricting wars. We've seen it with Russ Feingold and campaign finance, where those money and PAC issues, as you know, came up in history. And there was a real pragmatic debate among reformers and liberals who said progress isn't just saying only people who agree with this have to do it any more than you have a Pentagon budget only funded by taxpayers who want a bigger army that you really need to get binding rules. What do you say to that counterargument?

[Congressman Jason Crow]

Yeah, what I say is I actually don't buy the argument at all that doing some very simple things is somehow unilaterally disarming, that I have to do things that I think are distasteful and corrupt to somehow compete. I don't take corporate PAC money. I've never taken corporate PAC money in my campaigns. And guess what? I raised more money than any other house member in Colorado this last quarter with small dollar donations, with a grassroots campaign. So, you know, you can do it and people will follow those who are leading. They will see who's doing the right thing and that will generate its own support. So I just don't know.

[Ari Melber]

It sounds like you're almost making on. Yeah, you're almost making argument about like, you know, you need to have a leg day at the gym if you want to be well rounded and, and you gotta either do it or not because you're saying if you don't do it, then you end up being more indebted to corporate PACs and that might actually put more pressure on you to take positions that, I don't know, in your case, you might oppose. Is that, is that a fair summary?

[Congressman Jason Crow]

Well, I lost you on the leg day. Although I, I appreciate a leg day. Just the analogy is like, is like

[Ari Melber]

if you don't, if you don't fort fundraising like a leg day. Yeah. You won't be able to run without the corporate packs. I'm. It was a bad analogy, but just

[Congressman Jason Crow]

to share was a good try, though. I mean, I'm always here for leg day analogies. I mean, how about that? You don't want to be at a

[Ari Melber]

point where you don't want their money. Go ahead.

[Congressman Jason Crow]

Yeah, I don't. Listen, I want to be able to go to my community and be like, listen, I will have people come into my office and make their case and I'm going to listen to what they have to say based on the merits of the case. Good ideas, bad ideas. But I'm not going to feel like I need to listen to somebody or I need them to come in because they're writing me a corporate fact check. I just don't want to do that. And frankly, that's liberating for me. Right. It takes a hell of a lot of pressure off of me. It allows me to go to my community with a straight face and make the case. And it inspires confidence in the people that I represent. So I don't know why other members wouldn't follow suit on that because the appetite is so big. This should be one of the most bipartisan things in America right now, this blowback against corruption, because I represent a diverse district. Republicans, Democrats, independents, and everyone in between. And everybody wants this. Actually, everybody who I talk to wants it. So I don't know why people don't step up. And that's the whole point behind our caucus. We're gonna try to push it, create name and shame if we have to, but create the demand for it and invite people to follow.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, a big Democratic push here, which is why we wanted to give time to cover it. So, on a serious note, it's important when you look at the corruption issues and we kind of talked it out, people can make up their own mind. On a lighter note, you know, you made that leg day analogy. I don't know if it's going to end up in campaign ads. We'll keep our eyes out for it. Congressman, thanks for being here.

[Congressman Jason Crow]

I am due. I am due for a leg day, and you have named and shamed me, Ari. So I'm. I'm hitting the gym after this.

[Ari Melber]

You know, we try to have fun. We don't take ourselves too seriously. The issues you face are serious, Congressman. Thank you. We'll be right back.

[Chris Hayes]

Artificial intelligence is moving very, very fast, and it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it isn't. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes, and as part of my podcast, why Is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.

[Ari Melber]

We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is real and what's not real.

[Chris Hayes]

Why is this happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now, start listening today, wherever you get your podcasts.