Troops Enter More Cities As Trump Suggests Some Citizens Are ‘Enemies’

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode Title: Troops Enter More Cities As Trump Suggests Some Citizens Are ‘Enemies’
Date: October 2, 2025
Host: Melissa Murray (in for Ari Melber), MSNBC
Guests: Michelle Goldberg (NYT), Molly Jong-Fast (Vanity Fair), Jacob Soboroff (MSNBC), Congressman Brendan Boyle, Barbara McQuaid (MSNBC analyst), Justin Driver (Yale Law)

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Overview

This episode covers a day of escalating tensions as federal troops are deployed to additional US cities amid a government shutdown, with President Trump labeling certain American citizens as "enemies." The program scrutinizes the legitimacy and consequences of these military deployments in blue cities, the government shutdown's political messaging, federal law enforcement’s recent actions, the DOJ’s prosecution of James Comey, and the longer-term ramifications of Trump-era changes to diversity and inclusion policy, focusing especially on affirmative action.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Escalation of Troop Deployments in US Cities

• Federal Troops and National Guard Mobilized:
  • Trump administration sends federal troops to Memphis, Portland, and authorizes the National Guard in Missouri to assist with ICE deportations.
  • Recent deployments follow earlier actions in Los Angeles and Washington, D.C.
• President Trump's Rhetoric:
  • Describes certain American cities as "enemies from within" and suggests using them as military "training grounds".
    • Quote (Trump, 02:30):
      “Some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military National Guard. It’s the enemy from within and we have to handle it before it gets out of control.”
• Media and Editorial Reaction:
  • The Washington Post editorial board sharply opposes the militarization of cities and use of soldiers as police.

Panel Discussion

[03:44] Michelle Goldberg:

• “No, it’s not normal. ... When you have a president stand up before the entire military and basically say ... you’re going to use American cities as training grounds for your foreign wars ... I think that we’re pretty well here [in authoritarianism].”

[05:55] Molly Jong-Fast:

• Critiques Democrats for focusing only on healthcare in shutdown messaging, suggesting they’re neglecting broader threats to democracy and authoritarian overreach.

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2. Political Strategy During Shutdown

• Democratic Messaging:

  • Democrats center the shutdown on Republican attempts to cut healthcare, despite simultaneous, troubling actions by federal law enforcement and the military.

• Internal Criticism:

  • Panelists argue that Democrats risk missing the larger existential threats to democracy by not directly confronting Trump's divisive actions.
    • Quote (Goldberg, 07:17):
      “Pointing to statistics is not going to convince anybody ... that’s kind of taking the administration’s pretext at face value.”

• Urban–Rural Divide Amplified:

  • Goldberg highlights how right-wing messaging is deepening divides and feeding misperceptions about urban safety.

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3. Illegality and Historical Violations

• Founding Principles Undermined:

  • Panelists stress the unconstitutionality and un-American nature of using the military against civilians.
    • Quote (Murray, 08:57):
      "One of the things that the founding fathers feared most deeply was ... Congress and the president being able to use a standing army against the people. And here we are."

• Importance of Documenting Abuses:

  • Molly Jong-Fast urges peaceful resistance and documentation as court challenges unfold:
    • Quote (Jong-Fast, 09:21):
      "You be peaceful and you document everything ... there are laws, there are rules, these courts are finding these things illegal ... these images can travel ... we're gonna hit a tipping point probably sooner rather than later."

• Hope in Institutional Oaths:

  • Reference to a Portland councilor and military veteran reminding troops of their oath to the Constitution.

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4. Federal Law Enforcement Abuses

• ICE and Federal Agents’ Use of Force:
  • Reports of excessive force, intimidation, and violence against journalists, U.S. citizens, and immigrants.
    • Accounts of Violence (14:10–14:41):
      • Elderly business owner body-slammed
      • Woman knocked to floor while identifying as an American
      • Journalists hospitalized after confrontations with masked, armed agents
    • Quoting a Reagan-appointed judge (14:27):
      “ICE goes masked for a single reason, to terrorize Americans into quiescence ... In all our history, we have never tolerated an armed, masked secret police.”

[15:51] Jacob Soboroff (on ICE abuses):

• “...this effort by the Trump administration to institute the largest mass deportation effort in American history, that is not going after solely the worst of the worst. ... The majority ... have no criminal record whatsoever other than being in the country without authorization.”
• On masked agents:
  “What do you think they were doing marching down Michigan Avenue in Chicago in tactical gear... That’s a show of force. That is a message that they’re sending.”

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5. Shutdown Political Maneuvering & Democratic Response

• Republican Blame Game:
  Republicans argue Democrats are holding the government hostage; Democrats push back, citing Republican control.
  • Quote (Brendan Boyle, 23:02):
    "Republicans control the House, they control the Senate, they control the White House. This is the Republican shutdown."
• Messaging Strategy Debate:
  Democrats fear diluting their message by tackling too many issues at once; some believe sticking to healthcare is more effective, others warn authoritarianism must be called out directly.

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6. The Comey Indictment: Legal Weakness & Intimidation

• DOJ Prosecution Scrutinized:
  • Flaws in the DOJ indictment against James Comey for alleged false statements to Congress.
    • Prosecutor’s Lack of Experience:
      • Only signed by newly appointed, Trump-loyal U.S. attorney Lindsey Halligan.
    • Key Error:
      • Indictment based on misquoted question by Senator Ted Cruz, potentially undermining the case.
      • Quote (Barbara McQuaid, 32:16):
        “I now think that may have been a deliberate effort to leave that out because they don’t match. ... At least reasonable doubt there in a jury’s mind.”
    • Chilling Effects:
      • The prosecution may be designed more to intimidate critics than to secure a conviction.
      • Quote (McQuaid, 35:01):
        “It could also be to provide a chilling effect on would-be critics that you don’t want to be the next Jim Comey.”

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7. Structural Changes: Attacks on Diversity & Inclusion

• Trump’s DEI Crackdown:
  • Targets DEI in federal government, private business, and educational institutions. Orders removal of historical references to slavery and segregation from museums/parks.
• Supreme Court's Affirmative Action Ruling:
  • 2023 decision gutted affirmative action in college admissions, causing record drops in Black and Hispanic enrollment.
    • Quote (Narrator, 38:09):
      "A sharply divided court scrapping decades of precedent. ... This is tantamount to sticking a dagger in our back."
• Overinterpretation by the Administration:
  • Trump administration applies the decision far beyond its letter; legal expert Justin Driver argues this is an overreach.
    • Quote (Justin Driver, 40:04):
      “The Trump administration is brandishing the Supreme Court opinion ... but it also did not sweep as far as the Trump administration insists that it swept."
• Long-Term Consequences:
  • Declining diversity will have ripple effects in professional leadership and democratic legitimacy.
    • Quote (Driver, 41:15):
      "We're going to see catastrophic consequences that flow in the C suite, in the engineering labs, and everywhere else across this great country of ours ... negative consequences for our experiment in multiracial democracy.”
• Advice for Universities:
  • Driver urges colleges not to be cowed, to defend their mission and seek clarity in court if challenged.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Trump’s “enemy from within” rhetoric [02:30]
• Michelle Goldberg: “We’re pretty well here [in authoritarianism].” [03:44]
• Molly Jong-Fast: “...they think that healthcare pulls better than ICE, than this paramilitary police force...” [05:55]
• Melissa Murray: “It feels like it’s about making the divide between the urban and the rural even more profound.” [07:29]
• Jacob Soboroff: “The majority of people ... have no criminal record whatsoever other than being in the country without authorization.” [15:51]
• Reagan-appointed Judge (quoted): “ICE goes masked for a single reason, to terrorize Americans into quiescence.” [14:27]
• Brendan Boyle: “If you make it about everything, in a sense, you’ve made it about nothing.” [25:57]
• Barbara McQuaid: “...a deliberate effort to leave that out because they don’t match.” [32:16]
• Justin Driver: “The Trump administration says that universities are prohibited even from pursuing racial diversity as a goal, and that’s incorrect.” [40:04]
• Justin Driver: “...catastrophic consequences that flow ... for our experiment in multiracial democracy.” [41:15]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:00–03:00 – Introduction and summary of current events (troops in cities, Trump's rhetoric)
• 03:00–11:15 – Panel discussion: Goldberg and Jong-Fast on militarization, authoritarianism, Democratic messaging
• 13:32–19:28 – ICE abuses, report by Jacob Soboroff, masked agents, intimidation
• 20:09–26:44 – Government shutdown, partisan messaging, Brendan Boyle interview
• 28:02–36:53 – Comey indictment analysis, Barbara McQuaid interview, legal scrutiny
• 36:59–44:00 – Trump’s D.E.I. crackdown, affirmative action ruling consequence, Justin Driver interview

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Memorable Moments

• Panelists’ unease with the “new normal” of domestic troop deployment
• Reports and footage of violence by ICE agents against civilians and journalists—unprecedented in modern America
• The legal weaknesses and possible political motivations behind the Comey indictment
• In-depth discussion on the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision and its far-reaching impact
• Calls for documenting abuses and legal challenges, and for institutions (especially universities) to stand up to executive intimidation

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Conclusion

This episode of The Beat provided a sobering overview of a moment where democratic norms are under acute threat: escalating federal militarization of US cities, instances of government overreach and abuse by law enforcement, political brinksmanship over a government shutdown, dubious prosecutions of political opponents, and a broad assault on diversity and anti-discrimination policies. The panelists and guests stress the dangers of normalization and urge Americans and institutions to remain vigilant, document abuses, and fight for accountability and democratic principles.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Melissa Murray]

Welcome to the Beat. I'm Melissa Murray in for Ari Melber. Ahead tonight on day one of the government shutdown. Donald Trump is trying to exert some presidential pressure, but top Democrats are defiant.

[Narrator/Announcer]

For decades, Republicans have consistently shut the government down as part of their efforts to try to extract and jam their extreme right wing agenda down the throats of the American people.

[Melissa Murray]

Already, Trump is targeting blue states in a way that some Democrats claim is an abuse of power. We will get into that and more, but we start tonight with a red alert for the country as federal troops enter more American cities. And Donald Trump suggests that some American citizens are, quote, enemies. Today, Trump claimed that the National Guard is now, quote, in place in Portland, Oregon. This despite local on the ground reporting that National Guard deployment has actually been delayed amid legal challenges. Also today, federal troops are on the ground in Memphis, Tennessee and Missouri's Republican governor has authorized the National Guard to assist ICE with deportations across the the state. All of this comes, of course, just months after Donald Trump deployed troops to Los Angeles and Washington, D.C. and it comes just one day after Trump tried to justify domestic military action telling Pentagon leaders to, quote, handle the, quote, enemy from within.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Take a listen to San Francisco, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles. They're very unsafe places and we're going to straighten them out one by one. And this is going to be a major part for some of the people in this room. That's a war, too. It's a war from within. We should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military National Guard. It's the enemy from within and we have to Handle it before it gets out of control.

[Melissa Murray]

The Washington Post editorial board responded to these startling developments, writing simply, quote, us cities aren't meant to be military training grounds, and our soldiers didn't sign up to be police officers. That is where we begin tonight. New warnings that Donald Trump's rhetoric and actions about military troops in American cities is escalating at an alarming pace. Joining me now to discuss all of this is Michelle Goldberg, columnist for the New York Times, and Molly Jong, Fast, columnist for Vanity Fair. Both are MSNBC political analysts. Michelle, let's start with you. What is your reaction to the expansion of the military's presence throughout American cities? Is this normal?

[Michelle Goldberg]

I mean, no, it's not normal. I think that, you know, we've been talking a lot about, for years, you know, we're on the verge of authoritarianism. We, the, we might lose our democracy. You know, I think that we're pretty well here. When you have a president stand up before the entire military and basically say, I want you, or you're going to use American cities as training grounds for your foreign wars. When he declares huge swaths of the populace his enemies, when he sends the military to intimidate and potentially crush them. When you have scenes like we had recently in the, in the immigration court building here in New York, you've seen a woman, a mother, thrown to the ground. The agent who did that was briefly fired because there was someone, I guess, in the bureaucracy who thought that was unacceptable, thought wrongly, and thought wrongly. And so the message in some is, is even worse because it's actually saying, no, somebody will come to your aid. There was a journalist who was taken out on a stretcher the other day. So it's just, it's getting worse and worse and worse, and we're not capable, I think, as a society of reacting appropriately because, you know, partly because the mechanisms of accountability have shut off, partly, I think the leaders of the Democratic Party have decided that it has to be health care, healthcare, healthcare, and that people don't really, that these kind of broader ideas about authoritarianism and democracy don't move the needle. You know, it's interesting that the shutdown fight is about health care, right? You could imagine a world where the shutdown fight is about why would we fund your efforts to declare war on us.

[Melissa Murray]

So this is my question today, Molly Jungfas. There was a New York Times interview with Chuck Schumer, and he's talking about, you know, we are emphasizing that this shutdown is about the Republicans refusal to give on the health care cuts. But there's so many other things that are happening right now, things that could be about bread and butter, economic issues. Why is it health care? Why aren't we talking about the fact that the President of the United States is calling people living in blue cities, all of us, the enemies?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Well, and the question is also why are they making a deal with a Republican Congress that has given up its power? Like, think about these pocket rescissions, right at the end of the year, you had Republicans claw back $5 billion in foreign aid and funding for PBS after it had been signed into law. So here's the question, like, how do you make a deal with someone who you can't trust? And I think that is a real big problem. And you saw even Republicans on the appropriation committee saying that they need to have solid, you know, buy in front the Trump administration if they're gonna make deals. And so I think Democrats are. You know, this has been very tough for them to sort of. They think that healthcare pulls better than ice, than this paramilitary police force that has billions of dollars in our cities. I don't know that that is a wise move. I think they can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Melissa Murray]

Doing two things at one. Very interesting possibility. Michelle. One of the things that the Trump administration has emphasized over and over again as it sent the military into American cities is that this is necessary to fight crime. And Democrats, I think, have responded in large part by pointing to statistics that show that, in fact, there isn't a crime problem. Is that missing the moment and messaging the wrong kind of thing?

[Michelle Goldberg]

Well, I don't know that pointing to statistics is going to convince anybody, especially because the people who are actually in these cities are, by and large, not voting for Republicans. People outside them are not going to listen to Democratic statistics.

[Melissa Murray]

And it feels like it's about making the divide between the urban and the rural even more profound.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Right. I mean, you know, my parents are retired and live in Arizona. My dad tells me he has friends out there who are shocked that they come visit me because they think it's some sort of dangerous hellhole here in New York instead of a place where my middle school students can take public transportation. But I also think that, you know, there's. There's this message. There's also this is. I think that they get caught up talking about crime when, in a way, that's kind of taking the administration's pretext at face value.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah.

[Michelle Goldberg]

The administrator, the Trump administration recently put out this memoranda describing huge. Basically, the American left writ large, sort of Terms of domestic terrorism, you know, threatening to go after George Soros, threatening to go after all sorts of, you know, kind of people who.

[Melissa Murray]

Who dissent.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Who dissent.

[Melissa Murray]

Right. Not who.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Not who are violent, but who, you know, kind of demonize immigration officials, for example. And so. And at the same time, you have Trump in front of the military saying, you know, not just when he talks about the enemy within. At one point, he said civil unrest, so he's talking about mass protest. And that's what this is laying the groundwork for. And if we're, you know, quibbling about crime statistics.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, we've missed the point.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Right, Exactly.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah. So, Molly, something seems very unamerican about this law professor here. Was looking at the Constitution today, looking at the Declaration of Independence, One of the things that the founding fathers feared most deeply was the prospect of the government in Congress and the president being able to use a standing army against the people. And here we are. How can the party of law and order and the party that talks about the Constitution do this with a straight face?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Right? And I think it's important to remember this is not legal. We just saw this, like, in California, in Los Angeles, pasigamatitas, like, it's not legal. So I think that, you know, Governor Pritzker has been really clear on this, and I think in a really effective way, he says, you be peaceful and you document everything, and people need to document everything with their phones in a peaceful way. And you know why? Because there's going to be a moment in this country, and we've seen it again and again and again because we've gone from backlash to backlash to backlash, where there's going to be a video where people are going to be like, oh, no, this is not who we are. And Donald Trump is very sensitive to images, too. So he will see one of those videos and be like, whoa, Stephen Miller. So, you know, I think this is, you know, and I just think it's very scary moment in American life. But we have to know there are laws, there are rules, these courts are finding these things illegal, and we have these cell phones that are incredibly powerful, and these images can travel. And I do think that we're gonna hit a tipping point probably sooner rather than later.

[Melissa Murray]

Michelle, final question to you. We don't have time to play this tape, but we have some amazing footage of a Portland city councilor who's also a military veteran, who, amidst the Trump deployment to his city, has said that even these troops have taken an oath to the Constitution. And part of that oath involves an obligation to do the right thing in this moment. Is that a lesson for all of us right now? Like maybe dissent is the right thing?

[Michelle Goldberg]

I think so. I mean, I feel like it's all we have. I'm not necessarily as sanguine as Molly is about the, about the laws and the rules, but prevailing. But I think you have to behave as if they will. Right. You sort of can't preemptively decide that we are all at the mercy of these people.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Michelle Goldberg, Molly, John, Fast, thanks for getting us started. Coming up, Democrats hit back as Trump targets blue states on day one of this government shutdown. Plus, Jacob Soborough is here. He can tell you live about the horrific videos of ICE agents in action.

[Michelle Goldberg]

And a 79 year old business owner.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Says he was body slammed and pinned.

[Michelle Goldberg]

To the ground by federal agents during an immigration raid.

[Melissa Murray]

Despite being a US Citizen. The agent shoves her backwards into a wall, knocking her to the floor, standing over her and pointing as she lay on the ground. And when we return, I'll talk to Barbara McQuaid about the big problem in the Comey indictment. We are back in just 90 seconds.

[Michelle Goldberg]

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[Melissa Murray]

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[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Melissa Murray]

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[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Melissa Murray]

Home project, leave it to the pros. Get [e-mail] tonight. Critics are warning that ICE agents across the country are out of control, using improper intimidation and force against suspects, journalists and US citizens.

[Michelle Goldberg]

A 79 year old business owner says he was body slammed and pinned to the ground by federal agents during an immigration raid.

[Melissa Murray]

Despite being a U.S. citizen, one of.

[Barbara McQuaid]

The women who was detained was hospitalized.

[Melissa Murray]

Witness video from a Ledera Heights Home Depot this morning shows a woman screaming as she is detained by federal agents. At one point, she identifies herself as an American. The ICE officer now relieved of his duties after what this video showed him doing. The agent shoves her backwards into a wall, knocking her to the floor, standing over her and pointing as she lay in the ground.

[Narrator/Announcer]

One of our own reporters, Asal Rezai, was in her own car when an ICE agent shot a projectile at her.

[Michelle Goldberg]

ICE agent that was masked pointed his weapon and shot directly at my car.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Journalists were pushed and one ended up in the hospital.

[Melissa Murray]

Immigration officers followed two women into an elevator Tuesday at the federal court in lower Manhattan, followed by two photojournalists and then agents in ski masks pushed two of the journalists. One of the journalists you saw was later taken to the hospital on a stretcher. We've never quite seen this in modern America. Massed armed agents who often refuse to identify themselves, patrolling the streets of our cities. In fact, one Reagan appointed judge called it out in a recent ruling. He wrote, quote, ice goes masked for a single reason, to terrorize Americans into quiescence. Our troops do not ordinarily wear masks. Can you imagine a masked Marine? It is a matter of honor. And honor still matters to us. Masks are associated with cowardly desperados and the despised Ku Klux Klan. In all our history, we have never tolerated an armed, masked secret police. Joining me now to discuss all of this is Jacob Soboroff, MSNBC Senior Political a national correspondent who has been in the field covering so many of these issues. Jacob, help me understand. What did I just see in those ICE videos is this is America.

[Narrator/Announcer]

This is America. And I think, you know, Melissa, just like family separation, will look back at the ignoble chapters of American history and this effort by the Trump administration to institute the largest mass deportation effort in American history, that is not going after solely the worst of the worst. And in fact, the majority of people, I, I think we have to reiterate time and again as much as we can who have been apprehended under these operations have no criminal record whatsoever other than being in the country without authorization. And that is the discretion of this administration to go after those folks, like people who are at fruit carts here in LA or at flower stands or in Home Depot parking lots, or people trying to do the right thing by showing up in the hallways of 26 Federal Plaza in New York with their family members oftentimes to actually go through the legal asylum process. And they are met not just with masked, armed immigration agents like the ones that I've seen myself, but they meet the fate of this mother right here that you're watching on your screen thrown to the ground. Or like Mr. Ellibol, the journalist who you saw in that neck brace, who I was exchanging messages with earlier today. And he says, you know, he's feeling better and he's resting. But these are not agitators, as Trisha McLaughlin, the spokesperson for the Secretary of Homeland Security, said earlier today. She said agitators and members of the media were interfering with operations yesterday at 26 Federal Plaza. I'll say to you what I said to Nicole earlier this evening. Agitators are not permitted inside 26 Federal Plaza. It is a federal building with intense, aggressive security. Anybody who's ever gone to try to renew your passport knows how hard it is to get into a building like that. These are credentialed members of the media and local elected officials who are there to observe people like sketch artists and others. And so this picture that they're painting within the administration, that there's some kind of lawlessness, and that's why this type of violence needs to be perpetrated on immigrants coming to try to do the right thing is preposterous, frankly.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, a key aspect of this is that these agents are not only behaving with incredible force, they're doing so while they're masked. And the judge in the piece that we just quoted noted that this was to terrorize people. What do you make of that? Is the terror the point? Is this just about chilling dissent or something bigger?

[Narrator/Announcer]

No, of course it is. And they have said as much. You know, they called this massive raid they did in MacArthur park here in Los Angeles, in the center of the city, a show of force, or some version of that phrase. What do you think they were doing marching down Michigan Avenue in Chicago in tactical gear with long rifles with their faces covered on a beautiful weekend afternoon? That's a show of force. That is a message that they're sending. That is not a tactical operation that they are engaged in. What's the point of having Border Patrol agents march up and down Michigan Avenue, ride in the Chicago river in the boats of CBP air and Marine operation? The whole thing is to send a message or to put on a show. I mean, look at that. Do you see drug cartels? Usually they're in the Rio Grande chasing drug cartels that are either trying to smuggle people or contractors band across the river. There they are surrounded the Lucia tourist boat in the Chicago River. The scenes are, you know, I've seen Trump administration officials say, oh, this is so badass. Katie Miller, Stephen Miller's wife, posted that about images from Chicago. I think any other person that would look at that would say this is ridiculous.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah, not the country that we've come to know or at least that we did know. Jacob Soboroff, thank you so much for that update.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Thanks.

[Melissa Murray]

Ahead, how the Trump DOJ's rushed indictment of James Comey may already be falling apart. We have a breakdown. And Trump dials up threats on day one of the shutdown while top Democrats remain defiant. We've been here all week.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Republicans are missing in action, nowhere to be found on vacation scattered across the country. Democrats want Republicans to agree to continue funding the Affordable Care act, whereas Republicans want to use that money to add crab legs to the omelette station at Mar a Lago.

[Melissa Murray]

It's day one of the government shutdown and the Washington blame game is in full swing. Take a listen.

[Narrator/Announcer]

We're not going to engage in bipartisan discussions while Democrats are holding the federal government hostage.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

If it isn't entertainment. This is a really show.

[Narrator/Announcer]

It's one thing to say that we.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

Should solve the health care crisis for Americans.

[Narrator/Announcer]

It's another thing to say that we're going to shut down the government. The callousness of this president where he's basically threatening people's lives, threatening their employment, threatening their careers. They prioritize taxpayer funded benefits for illegal aliens over keeping the government open.

[Justin Driver]

That is a damn lie.

[Melissa Murray]

Here's what this means as a practical matter. There will be delays to federal worker pay as well as possible delays to critical functions like Social Security and snap benefits. And hanging over all of this is the White House threat of mass permanent layoffs to the federal workforce.

[Narrator/Announcer]

When you shut it down, you have to do layoffs. So we'd be laying off a lot of people that are going to be very affected. And they're Democrats. They're going to be Democrats.

[Melissa Murray]

We believe that layoffs are imminent. As for next steps, the Senate doesn't reconvene until Friday, meaning that this shutdown will last for at least three days. Joining me now to break all of this down is Congressman Brendan Boyle, a ranking Democratic member of the House Budget Committee. Congressman Spoil, thank you for joining us. Where are we with this? What is the state of play right now? What are the backroom deals and conversations that are happening, if any at all.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

Yeah. Great to be with you. And what's really frustrating is those conversations aren't taking place. I was in Washington D.C. in the Capitol this week. A couple hundred of my Democratic colleagues were there as well. And if you walked around the Capitol, something you would not find was a Republican colleague. Speaker Mike Johnson canceled session. We were supposed to be in on Monday and Tuesday. He outright canceled it, sent all of his members home. So it's pretty clear they wanted this shutdown. They ensured that it would happen. Now I know the Senate is coming back in session on Friday and I understand we'll be in session over the weekend. But as of right now, the House isn't even scheduled to return. By the Republicans own design. Not scheduled to return until Tuesday.

[Melissa Murray]

The Republicans may be out of the building, but they do have a unified message about this shutdown. And the message is that this is the Democrats fault. How does your party counteract this messaging and remind voters that this is a President whose party controls the White House and both houses of Congress? This seems like something they could have avoided.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

Yeah, there's no question about it. As you just pointed out, Republicans control the House, they control the Senate, they control the White House. This is the Republican shutdown. I would also point out a big difference between this time versus over the last 30 years when Republicans forced every single shutdown. They were forcing those shutdowns because frankly they just don't believe in government and they want to shut it down. You don't hear me. You don't hear one of my Democratic colleagues saying they want a government shutdown. My Senate Democratic colleagues in fact have a bill that would reopen the government immediately, but crucially would also ensure that all of those devastating cuts to our health care that will cost millions and millions of Americans their health insurance, that those cuts also don't take effect.

[Melissa Murray]

So Democrats have been emphasizing that the reason for this shutdown, why we've been brought to the brink of a shutdown is because the Republicans will not give on the restoration of those healthcare cuts. Is that going to resonate with voters? And would it have been possible to expand the message to focus not just on healthcare but on the fact that we don't want to fund ICE enforcement in this particular way. We don't want to fund the deployment of the military to cities to assist with domestic local crime enforcement. There other messages that might resonate just as well, maybe more so with, with all of the voters right now given the things that we are seeing.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

Yeah, I was interested in your previous conversation so let me just offer a few thoughts. First, I would say that our primary message is that this is about health care. Just because those cuts literally begin. Well, they begin today, October 1st. That is a result of the legislation that was passed in the Trump Republican reconciliation bill. I would remind you Congressional Budget Office projects More than 15 million Americans will lose their health care and premiums for those who will still be on the Obamacare exchanges will literally double overnight. So that has been the primary message, but that's not the only message. For example, I have an op ed that I published a couple months ago in which I pointed out the problem with rescissions. Now, I know that, you know, no voter of mine or constituent here in Philadelphia is bringing up rescissions to me, but this is a really important point because how can I vote for anything on any given day knowing that the very next day Russell vote can take away the concessions that were just made in order to win my support? This is an incredibly serious issue. We're talking about the power of Congress to be a co equal branch of government. So that is something that I've been harping on is absolutely needs to be part of any agreement that we reach.

[Melissa Murray]

So the House Republicans, as you say, are not in D.C. right now and the Senate will not be reconvening until Friday. How long are the Democrats prepared to hold out and how do you intend to exert pressure on the Republicans?

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

Well, I've made it clear, and I only speak for myself, I cannot in good conscience vote for something that does not see real rescissions, reform again, because I don't believe in being played for a soccer. I don't believe in giving up my one true power, which is my vote on a promise from the likes of Russell vote or Donald Trump. So that needs to be in there, as well as relief for health care. I also say back to your previous question, the previous conversation, I don't disagree with any of those important priorities that we need to continue to fight for. But let's not forget, when you're in a messaging war, if you make it about everything, in a sense, you've made it about nothing.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Congressman Brendan Boyle, thanks so much for joining us tonight.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

Thank you.

[Melissa Murray]

Still ahead, we will take a closer look at the Supreme Court's landmark decision to ban affirmative action and what it means in the Trump era. But first, the major holes in the Department of Justice's case against former FBI director Director James Comey. All that is up next.

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[Narrator/Announcer]

I don't think there's a case. This is not a slam dunk. I don't see any way in the world that, you know, Comey would be convicted premised on something that's not true. The indictment itself is quite weak and.

[Melissa Murray]

That it's unlikely to survive in court. It's been shot up with Ozempic. That is how lean it is.

[Narrator/Announcer]

This case should be thrown out. There's a good chance because of, you know, the wholly unconstitutional, authoritarian way that this was done, that the case may get tossed out well before trial.

[Melissa Murray]

Not Ozempic. While most indictments are usually signed by the U.S. attorney and the line prosecutors who have handled the case at the grand jury stage this indictment is signed only by Lindsey halligan, the interim U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia and a former Trump defense counsel. Prior to Halligan's appointment last week, she had no prosecutorial experience. According to reports, she was handpicked by Trump for the position after her predecessor refused to yield to administration pressure to prosecute. New York Attorney General Letitia James Halligan charged Comey with two counts of making false statements to Congress. Just days before the statute of limitations was set to expire. Former U.S. attorney Barbara McQuaid wrote a new piece analyzing the indictment. She wrote, quote, it's amateur hour. The indictment in his case reflects the lack of experience of the prosecutor who filed it. McQuaid points to a simple word, flub, that has the potential to blow up the entire case. At the heart of the case against Jim Comey is an exchange between Comey and Senator Ted Cruz, during which Cruz asked Comey about an earlier 2017 Senate hearing in which Senator Chuck Grassley asked Comey whether he had authorized leaks to the press. I'm going to play the exchange between Comey and Senator Cruz here.

[Justin Driver]

Have you ever authorized someone else at.

[Narrator/Announcer]

The FBI to be an anonymous source in news reports about the Trump investigation or the Clinton investigation? No. He then asked you, quote, have you ever authorized someone else at the FBI to be an anonymous source in news reports about the Trump investigation or the Clinton administration? You responded, again under oath. No, I can only speak to my testimony. I stand by what the testimony you summarized that I gave in May of 2017.

[Melissa Murray]

McQuaid points out, quote, instead of accurately quoting Grassley, Cruz said, clinton administration, not Clinton investigation. The only Clinton administration in American history is the presidency of Bill Clinton, and it was not the subject of any FBI investigation under Comey. Therefore, Comey's denial in response to this question had nothing to do with Hillary Clinton. Joining me now to break all of this down is Barbara McQuaid, former U.S. attorney and an MSNBC legal analyst. Barb, let's talk about this administration investigation. Flub. Could this whole case blow up because Ted Cruz may have misspoken?

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yes. You know, you've heard experts, Melissa, talk about how weak this indictment is. And one of the things that really caught my eye and others is how spare the language is. Ordinarily, when you have a false statements prosecution, you'll see in the indictment a transcript. They'll have the language question verbatim, quote, answer verbatim, quote. It might go on for several pages. To provide context here, all we got were a few words, and what they left out were the two different quotations from Senator Grassley and Senator Cruz. And I now think that may have been a deliberate effort to leave that out because they don't match. And so when you are charging a case of false statements, you must provide the statement. You must prove this is the statement, here's why it was false, and that the person then and there knew it was false. If you've got this convoluted, I'm quoting somebody from three years ago and I didn't even quote them right, I think there's going to be at least reasonable doubt there in a jury's mind about what question he was even answering.

[Melissa Murray]

So one of the reasons why these kinds of indictments for false statements are so detailed is because it's actually very difficult to prove that someone knowingly lied to Congress. How do you think the government is going to go about proving its case here beyond a reasonable doubt?

[Barbara McQuaid]

I'd be surprised if they can. You know, it appears that person three who is referred to in this indictment about the so called leak or Source is Andrew McCabe. Andrew McCabe, of course, was a deputy FBI director at the time. But there was an inspector general report that said that they concluded that Jim Comey was never aware of any leak of this kind of information. Andrew McCabe says he never testified before the grand jury. So if that is the legal theory here, you know, it's easy to go to a grand jury and provide different transcripts and show that there was a conflict between testimony. Maybe that's enough to satisfy a grand jury that there's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But when you go to trial, you've got to prove unanimously to 12 jurors that there was guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And a transcript alone is not going to cut it. So I don't know how they plan to do that, whether they plan to call a reporter to say that this was authorized, or Andrew McCabe who says that he's not going to be able to provide that testimony. It seems unclear to me whether or they'll be able to prove that at all.

[Melissa Murray]

Barb, hear me out. What if the point here isn't even to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? What if the real point of this, the real punishment, is the outlay of resources and the time and the effort of dealing with this prosecution, or as you say in your op ed, the mere humiliation of being an indicted defendant? Is that the point of this? Yeah.

[Barbara McQuaid]

You know, it's hard to know what the motivation might be. It appears that that could be right. We've seen all of these social media posts from president about going after Jim Comey because he's a slime ball or all the other words that he has used. It could also be to provide a chilling effect on would be critics that you don't want to be the next Jim Comey. You don't want to be indicted either. But charging somebody, Melissa, is has ethics rules that surround it. Rule 3.8 of the Rules of Professional Conduct say you should not bring a case unless you believe the evidence is sufficient to prove guilt at trial and to sustain it on appeal. That means proof beyond a reasonable doubt. So to bring it just to humiliate a person would be an ethical violation, a violation of DOJ policy and norms and an abuse of power.

[Melissa Murray]

Jim Comey has said that he is ready for trial. He's ready to go to trial with this. What do you think the next move is? Is this even going to get to a trial or will there be something else before that?

[Barbara McQuaid]

I don't know. You know, I think Jim Comey's got to think strategically here. If he's innocent, he might want to just assert his right to a speedy trial, say let's go and dare Lindsey Halligan to get ready for this trial and prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I imagine, though, he's going to at least have some conversations with his lawyer, Patrick Fitzgerald, who's an outstanding lawyer, about filing motions for either selective prosecution, a violation of due process rights to a fair trial, or even challenging the legitimacy of the appointment of Lindsey Halligan. It appears to violate all of the various ways a U.S. attorney can be appointed with under the Vacancy Reform Act. And so maybe they want to go after one of those bases to get the case dismissed. But I could imagine Jim Comey saying, you know what, let's go to trial, because I am confident I'm going to prevail and it'll happen quickly and be over and then he would be fully exonerated and cleared. So that's a strategic decision he's going to have to make.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Barbara McQuaid, thanks so much for joining us, friend.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Thank you, Melissa.

[Melissa Murray]

Up next, my breakdown on how the Trump administration laid the groundwork for the recent power grabs during their first term. That's up next. In his second term, Donald Trump's crackdown on diversity, equity and inclusion has been far reaching, from gutting DEI programs in the federal government to targeting universities and private businesses. And then there's the push to sanitize American history. The president has directed museums and national parks to remove exhibits related to slavery and segregation on the ground that it's too woke and doesn't present American history in the best light. It's all happening now. But the groundwork for all of this actually began in Trump's first term, when he appointed three conservative justices to the United States Supreme Court, shifting the court to the right for generations to come. In 2023, that court issued an historic ruling gutting affirmative action in college admissions, a set of policies designed to increase the representation of historically disadvantaged groups.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Today's Supreme Court decision delivering a blow.

[Justin Driver]

To affirmative action policies.

[Melissa Murray]

A groundbreaking Supreme Court decision today severely limiting affirmative action in college admissions.

[Narrator/Announcer]

A sharply divided court scrapping decades of precedent. This is tantamount to sticking a dagger in our back. I'm very pleased with the Supreme Court decision.

[Congressman Brendan Boyle]

This ends reverse discrimination.

[Narrator/Announcer]

The court once again walked away from decades of precedent. Discrimination still exists in America. Today's decision does not change that.

[Melissa Murray]

It's been more than two years since that decision, and its impact is clear. The New York Times found that black and Hispanic enrollment declined at the colleges they surveyed during the following year. It was the largest drop since 2010. But some experts are offering a path forward. Yale law professor Justin Driver writes this in his new book. Universities should not operate under the inaccurate view that the court's ruling forbids them from engaging in all racial considerations. Driver says that universities can still legally consider a student's financial situation or their ability to speak multiple languages all as possible ways to continue to foster diversity on campus, a critical step to ensuring a healthy democracy that represents everyone. Justice Driver is joining me now again. He is a professor at Yale Law School and the author of the new book we just quoted. The book is called the Fall of Affirmative Action, Race, the Supreme Court, and the Future of Higher Education. All right, Justin, let's get into it. The Court's decision in 2023 was very consequential, but as you know, in the book, it's actually quite limited, and it's limited specifically to college admissions, higher education admissions. Yet this Trump administration has been using this decision to ban DEI in corporate settings, in the military, everywhere. Are they overreading it?

[Justin Driver]

Yes. Thank you very much for having me, Melissa. It seems to me that the Trump administration is brandishing the Supreme Court opinion. I detest that Supreme Court opinion, but it also did not sweep as far as the Trump administration insists that it swept. The Trump administration says that universities are prohibited even from pursuing racial diversity as a goal, and that's incorrect. The Trump administration says if a university were to abandon standardized Testing with an eye toward increasing racial diversity, that that would be a violation of the Supreme Court's decision. And that's exactly wrong. The Supreme Court's decision bars universities from considering what they call race qua race or race for the sake of race. But that does give universities a whole host of mechanisms that they can use to pursue racial diversity.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Right.

[Melissa Murray]

And you know that the pursuit of racial diversity has actually been very consequential. In the book, you write that affirmative action programs have been the single most important factor in the rise of the middle class in this country. Given that history, what is the likely byproduct of the administration's efforts to eliminate diversity, not just in higher education, but everywhere?

[Justin Driver]

Yeah, I think it's really important to bear in mind that we have seen plummeting black enrollment rates at many of our finest universities in the aftermath of this decision. MIT went from 15% black to 5% black in its first year class. Amherst, Brown, Columbia, Princeton have all seen these numbers fall off a cliff. Exactly as you say. What starts on college campuses is not going to remain there. We're going to see catastrophic consequences that flow in the C suite, in the engineering labs, and everywhere else across this great country of ours. So I'm deeply worried that this lost generation of black students is going to really have negative consequences for our experiment in multiracial democracy.

[Melissa Murray]

Right. So the landscape for colleges has been changing a lot, certainly with that decision in 2023, but also with with some of the executive actions from the administration this year. This is the start of a new college admissions season. Not only do we have the backdrop of that decision, we now have the administration saying that schools will likely have to turn over their admissions data to Stephen Miller, the administration, America's next top guidance counselor, who knows? And that may be a deterrent to diversity going forward. The fact that they will have to show their work and show that they are compliant with the court's decisions. What should college admissions offices be doing and what should students be doing in this moment?

[Justin Driver]

So, really important point. I fear with you that the consent decrees that the Trump administration entered into with Brown and with Columbia are going to be used to intimidate universities into depressing their already quite low black enrollments. And of course, after the Trump administration entered into the agreements with Brown and Columbia, they said, we're gonna want this from all of the universities. And I fear that the Trump administration is gonna wave around the at Brown and Columbia and say, if you're over 5% black students, then you are cheating. And I think it is incumbent for universities, including the admissions offices, to stand up for their principles and not allow the Trump administration's misapprehension of Supreme Court opinions to intimidate them. We're seeing, exactly as your program has said today, an attack on independent institutions throughout American society, including law firms, the Justice Department, the judiciary, and universities. And so universities need to defend themselves and allow the process to play itself out in the courts.

[Melissa Murray]

Is it likely to be a winning process for them in the courts?

[Justin Driver]

I believe that it will be ultimately a winning process. Harvard has been standing up to the universities, and I don't want to make light of the really difficult choices that confront university administrators today. But just capitulating to President Trump is not a good idea.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, well, we will leave it there, and we will take a look to make sure that that happens. All right, Professor Driver, thank you so much again. The new book is called the Fall of Affirmative Action, and it's available everywhere. Before we head out, just a quick programming note. Tomorrow we will have a live interview with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries. We will talk about this shutdown and Trump's threats of mass layoffs. That's all. Tomorrow night, 6pm Eastern, right here on the beach. That does it for me.

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