← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Trump Admin rocked by Susie Wiles' comments in Vanity Fair article
00:40:54
MS NOW's Ari Melber reports on the comments from Trump's Chief of Staff Susie Wiles who is on-the-record critiquing everything from tariffs, to immigration, to prosecuting rivals. Former Trump White House veteran Sarah Matthews and Gretchen Carlson join to discuss.
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- [00:00]
Ari Melber
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- [02:55]
Ebro Darden
Susie Trump, she's the great chief of staff, but the chief of staff and she's fantastic. Where's Susan?
- [03:05]
Host/Anchor
Susie? Come on, Susie. Look at Susie. Susie's the greatest. That's a rare shout out from Trump to a staff level individual. Returning the favor here. Weill says that he, Trump, is like her father, an alcoholic. Quote, Trump has an alcoholic's personality. He operates with a view. There's nothing he can't do. Nothing, zero, nothing. Now, Wiles is not actually saying that Trump, who famously doesn't drink at all, is some kind of alcoholic, but that he has an alcoholic's personality, which is striking coming from her working with him all day and night for all these times that this is how she views him and how she deals with him. She contrasts J.D. vance with Rubio, who says has some principles, while Vance went from opposing Trump to supporting him for what she characterizes as rank self interested opportunism. Again, Trump's top aid, still employed by him. By the way, quote, Vance's conversion came when he was running for the Senate. I think his conversion was a little bit more political. She says Vance has been a conspiracy theorist for a decade. Not exactly praise for someone who is a heartbeat from the presidency. She labels the leader of Project 2025, who now runs OMB as a right wing absolute zealot. And as for Elon Musk, who unlike, say Vance, has had more of a falling out with the administration, she says he's an avowed ketamine user, an odd, odd duck, as I think geniuses are. You know, it's not helpful, but he's his own person. Discussing some of the policies that the Trump administration advanced through Musk, for example, like going after usaid fore she says she was initially aghast. And she says she told Musk, you can't just lock people out of their offices. No rational person could think the USAID process was a good one. Nobody. That is again, quite the condemnation. One difference there is she may be putting the blame at someone who's no longer in the administration. But she goes on, in this absolute bonkers Vanity Fair interview on the economy, there was a huge disagreement over whether tariffs were a good idea, some predicting disaster. She asked Vance to pump the brakes. But Trump went forward again. Vanity Fair writing Wiles believed a middle ground on tariffs would ultimately succeed. She said, it's been more painful than I expected. Again, these are the quotes of Trump's top aid, and they are quite different from the usual defenses we hear, and they are more credible attacks on the administration, its policies, and some of its top members. Why and how this came out, why she talks like this, we'll get into in conversation, but I want to go to the enemies list here because more than anything else, which might just be politically embarrassing, Wiles has taken action through these words tonight. She has given evidence and confirmation of an unlawful prosecution on the enemy's list charges. Which means what she says because she's a government official, is now probably court evidence and could doom some of the cases you see on your screen. As for the Trump revenge plots, she says, I don't think he's on a revenge tour. In some cases, it may look like retribution and there may be an element of that from time to time. Who would blame him? Not me. So that's sort of her warm up. And if that's all she said, okay, debatable. Then when Vanity Fair asks about New York Attorney General Letitia James, who the DOJ has now thrice failed to indict, she says, well, that might be the one. Retribution. That is a confession that is potentially admissible in court. You have a top White House official admitting it's retribution case. You're keeping score. Retribution is exactly the kind of evidence that defense counsel needs to get the case tossed. As for James Comey, she says, I mean, people could think it does look vindictive. I can't tell you why you shouldn't think that. I don't think he wakes up thinking about retribution, but when there's an opportunity, he will go for it. This is meaningfully negative for the DOJ case and plan against Comey. If she meant to hurt her own side, okay. If she didn't, that's why some people maybe aren't as good at interviews. Weil says she has a loose agreement with Trump that the score settling will end before the first 90 days are over. That was a planned deadline that he didn't meet because she admits the score settling continues. This is evidence of what is called selective prosecution, which, A, can get the tick case tossed, B, can get other people in trouble, depending on how judges view it, Wiles says today the article is a disingenuously framed hit piece on me with significant context disregarded. Notice what she does not say and which makes her admittedly a little different than some around Trump. She doesn't deny saying these things. She doesn't say the whole thing is made up because she did say these things, apparently, and there is good record of that. And some of these things will have repercussions long beyond the headache that many Trump aides and the president himself are likely nursing. Tonight we have a Trump White House veteran turned critic Sarah Matthews on this very story when we're back in 90 seconds. Tires matter. They're the only part of your vehicle.
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Ebro Darden
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Host/Anchor
You'Ll spend this season. Prices and participation may vary while supplies last. Taxes, tips and fees extra. Trump White House rocked from the inside. And we have a special guest on this bananas story. Sarah Matthews is a former Trump White House veteran and spokesperson for Home of the Brave. There you could see her on the job watching what was likely a press briefing. And while they got their work cut out for them tonight, your reaction when you read this interview.
- [10:12]
Ari Melber
It was honestly refreshing to see because Susie Wiles gave a honestly brutal assessment of the Trump administration. She admitted that the tariffs have been more painful than she thought they would be. Something that obviously the Trump administration has been vehemently defending these tariffs and saying that they're good at economic policy. She admitted she was aghast when it came to the handling of Elon Musk dismantling usaid, that they should be more careful with their deportations, and cited an example of when the United States deported a US Citizen who was four years old and battling cancer. And then obviously, her assessment of some of these Cabinet officials across the board, her admitting that Attorney General Pam Bondi whiffed on the Epstein files and the handling of that, calling Elon Musk and odd duck and an avid ketamine user. I mean, this is not something that you would typically hear from a current sitting chief of staff in the White House. This is something that would usually jump in a Memoir.
- [11:18]
Host/Anchor
Yeah, memoir. I'll let you finish. I'm going to leave these quotes on the screen for folks coming home. There's a lot going on. These are all quotes here from the number one official in Trump's White House, alcoholic personality for the president, J.D. vance, a conspiracy theorist, which means, in her view, that he doesn't deal in facts or is trustworthy. I mean, that's what that means. And the attacks on Musk, as you mentioned, do you have a view of how this came out? Is this one of those situations where it's not a live TV interview, there's not an audience of a thousand at some ballroom in D.C. and so she kind of got her momentum going, or what do you think happened here?
- [11:55]
Ari Melber
Yeah, she can't write these off as political gaffes. She sat down with this reporter 11 times. And so even though the White House defense is saying that these quotes are taken out of context, they're not saying that the quotes are inaccurate. Obviously, this reporter has all of these interviews on tape and could dispute that, and he has said as much. But the context really doesn't matter. When you're looking at the things that she said, I don't know what the context would be that Elon Musk, who she let dismantle USAID and will potentially lead to the millions of deaths across the globe because of us withholding this aid, that he's an avid ketamine user. I don't, I don't know what the context, what more context you need there. And so I just think that they're going to try to say that this is taken out of context. But the thing is, it's that she was a willing participant for these interviews, that many of senior officials also participated in a glamorous photo shoot for Vanity Fair for this article. And if I had to guess, I think that she says in the article that she only saw herself staying on the job, job for six months. The first interview that she did with this reporter was prior to Trump's inauguration. So I think she agreed to be part of this, thinking that she would have already left the White House, but obviously she's still on the job. And so I think initially she agreed, though, because she wanted to set herself up for her legacy, to be viewed as the adult in the room during Trump 2.0. But now that she's still serving in this capacity and these quotes are coming to light, it does not make her look great.
- [13:28]
Host/Anchor
Really interesting. And again, you've been on the insides here reminding people that sometimes there are arrangements where people say, oh, they're going to be this political or loyal for this amount of time, and a government of job has all kinds of limits, but then they're planning ahead with the publishing cycle, et cetera, and that she may have kind of outmaneuvered herself if she thought she was going to be in the clear. They certainly don't read like things that you'd say about your current boss at any job, let alone the White House. I also want to ask you about some of the substance that that gives us a little window into how these people may approach their jobs. As you know, in the first term, there were many people around Trump, including General Kelly, who said they agreed with a lot of the agenda, but they wanted to help him be a better version of, of himself or a better version of these goals. And people can debate that, you know, till the cows come home. But there's evidence of folks trying to do that on foreign policy, on economic policy, even in how he dealt with Mueller initially. Second term, we all know, is a different story. What think of her description, which isn't as controversial, sounds true that the first term people were trying to do that and they got rid of those people. In this term, she views her role as only distilling Trump. Her view is just getting Trump to be anything he wants to be through government. Which of course, leaves out what most White Houses have, which is smart people with experience saying to the president, well, this might not be legal, or here's another way to do it. And does that explain both why this term is more unrestrained, but also in many ways less, less effective?
- [15:01]
Ari Melber
Yeah, as you noted, Chief of Staff John Kelly, in the first administration, he saw himself as the guardrails that he was trying to curb Trump of his worst instincts and prevent any unlawful activity. Whereas Susie Wiles admits herself that she almost sees herself as his enabler, that she is there to facilitate his agenda, and to that she'll pick and choose her battles of when she pushes back on. She talks about an example where she was surprised that he wanted to pardon all 1500 January6 rioters, but at the end of the day that she let it happen, that this was something he wanted and that he wanted to see all these folks pardoned, even the ones who committed violent acts. And she couldn't win that battle and so she just chose to go along with it. And I think that that is good that it sounds like she does push back on him occasionally. But obviously at the end of the day she sees herself as just there to carry out his agenda, even if it's at the detriment of the American people.
- [16:02]
Host/Anchor
Yeah, it's interesting you say that she is a bit of his enabler, given that she describes him as an alcoholic personality and the hangover is felt by a heck of a lot more people than just him when you have this much power. Sarah Matthews, thanks for being here. We have insiders now previewing this Epstein Files deadline three days out. Gretchen Carlson is here. That should be interesting. But next we're going to turn to one of these special reports that we have been working on. We think it's important. It is about fighting Trump, censorship and billionaires. And it's next.
- [16:37]
Ari Melber
For the Mountain Kind. It's the peace and quiet of a winter forest, the joy of carving a beautiful arc across a freshly groomed ski slope. Warm smiles around the fireplace after a day on the mountain, discovering your new favorite dish in a historic, charming town. It's all of the things that make a trip to Park City so special. Learn more@Visit ParkCity.com Park City, Utah for the mountain Kind hi everyone. I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of Crime Junkie, the Go to Crime podcast for the biggest cases and the stories you won't hear anywhere else. So whether on your commute, studying or while you work, let us keep you company. With new episodes every Monday. It is truly a Crime Junkie's dream. So join me, my best friend Brit, and our entire Crime Junkie community right now by catching up on hundreds of episodes and by listening to a new case every Monday on Crime Junkie, available wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Ebro Darden
More at applecard.com.
- [18:07]
Host/Anchor
President Trump and his corporate allies are pushing hard to control more media. The Ellisons Trump allies now trying to buy CNN and its parent company. In that hostile bid, they already bought CBS, which led to 60 minutes later resigning over meddling in journalism and newsroom changes. That came later. CBS also settling a thin Trump lawsuit to appease the White House. They ended Colbert's show. Critics see the pattern you see here, limiting people who stand up. Now, that company did say that the Colbert decision was financial. Other outlets, though, as you see, have been settling Trump suits left and right. Some, like Facebook curbing fact checking itself. Others are fighting. Kimmel and his supporters beat Trump's fcc, while newspapers like the Times are fighting back when Trump sues. So when we hear about standing up or speaking truth to power, it matters right now. And it can clearly also have consequences for the people willing to do it. We know that America faces big challenges on civil rights and political violence. It helps when we face them with independence and courage rather than normalizing them. Ebro Darden is known to many for doing exactly that with his voice and his radio show with Laura Stiles and Peter Rosenberg in New York and through their interviews with politicians. He has spoken as an advocate for working people and forgotten neighborhoods, challenged right wing extremism and also problems he saw with D.C. democrats. And I mention this now because there's news on this tonight, but for context, consider that in the year after the January 6th insurrection, when some were saying let's just move on, or that was just an aberration and not who we are as Americans. I want to show you Ebro's corrective declaration.
- [20:03]
Ebro Darden
American Exceptionalism. We're the best. We're the greatest. Even right now, people who saw January 6th will fix their lips and say, this is not who we are. What are you talking about? We just saw it on television. It's clearly who we are. What are you saying? Donald Trump wins presidency. This is not who we are. Did you go to the rallies? Did you see what was happening on tv? It's clearly a part of who we are. Police kill black men in the streets. This is not who we are. It's been who we are since inception, since day one. Why do we keep acting like we're not? This because we're programmed to think that we're better than we actually are. And we're going to have to come to terms with that if we're actually going to improve. And until we do, there won't be improvement. There's people who don't want to convict Donald Trump or any of his cronies because of the way it looks to the world. You know, we're not a banana republic. We don't, you know, jail our former politicians. We don't, we don't do that here. Well, we might want to start. We might want to start and fast. Otherwise we'll just have more of this.
- [21:16]
Host/Anchor
This is who we are. Some truths are hard. They're not always well received. Ebro and his co hosts knew that when they spoke out on their radio show, Ebro in the Morning. They've referenced that.
- [21:31]
Ebro Darden
This dialogue right here that we're having on a public radio station doesn't happen on 8 o' clock in the morning. The biggest media market. No one's touching this. They are deathly afraid of touching this conversation.
- [21:44]
Host/Anchor
And 13 years in, that radio show was building a larger audience, began drawing more top politicians in the past few years than at its start, including a recent Andrew Cuomo interview as he was running against the Democratic nominee for New York mayor, which proved newsworthy. Ebro questioning Cuomo about his Covid record, harassment allegations and his infamous late Trump endorsement. Until Cuomo apparently hung up on the radio interview. And then, in a total breach, the station's corporate parent pulled that interview offline. In journalism, that is blatant meddling in the independent work. And it may have been a sign because tonight the news is that that parent company Mediaco has abruptly canceled the entire show. Ebro in the Morning. The move was abrupt. There's no public plan for a new morning show yet. And Ebro publicly saying they were facing corporate pressure over their free speech, that major media outlets are folding up because they're trying to renew deals and licenses. And he said they need my blank talking anti Netanyahu, anti government, progressive blank out of the way. He speaks candidly, as you see, he said talking about politics on a corporate run media entity is always risky. Fact check. True. A lot of the time. Now that company Mediaco did not respond to requests for comment, which is a contrast, by the way, to the Ellison's Paramount. When they were asked about the Colbert cancellation, they denied motives of censorship. This company isn't saying. They're not publicly denying what Ebro Says about that pressure in the Cuomo interview, et cetera. So far, this cancellation is news tonight because this is a loss for independent media and local media and diverse voices. And it fits these two interlocking corporate trends in our current MAGA era. Government censorship over here and then billionaires also controlling more media while they consolidated over here. And that has obvious, basically sometimes unavoidable impact. It limits the reach of the very free speech that the Constitution is supposed to protect. This is bigger than right now or whether you agree with everything somebody said, it's their right to say it and have a free press. And in capitalism, the free press runs through these companies. We are witnessing the limiting of the number of people who can press the politicians for voters benefit. And remember, it ain't supposed to just be TV hosts, let alone government approved billionaire owned stations. And this radio show that was just canceled, they did plenty of that.
- [24:38]
Ebro Darden
Hello, Secretary Clinton.
- [24:40]
Host/Anchor
Hi, how are you doing today? There has been a massive transfer of.
- [24:44]
Ebro Darden
Wealth from the middle class.
- [24:46]
Ari Melber
We the CBC that introduced a package of bills yesterday that are about police accountability. We're advocating our communities.
- [24:54]
Host/Anchor
That's what I have faith in, is those hands knocking on doors, making phone calls, casting votes. Those are some of the candidates, many obviously now in office, who spoke on this show Ebro in the Morning. And the hosts were out there independent on politics and culture. Ebro also famously was an early critic of what he saw as Kanye West's emerging hate. He also confronted other artists about alleged battery against women. At a time where in the culture things can be just promotion. This was a place where people were really tested and debated. The other hosts, Laura Stiles and Peter Rosenberg, mixed culture with using that same platform to talk politics and civic life and have some hard conversations.
- [25:41]
Ebro Darden
I said, Kanye, the conversation's been open, bro. You're just not a part of it. And you're just chiming in right now because. Because you got an album coming out. Are you having those conversations in your house about Black Lives Matter? You're talking about things you don't understand and you're playing with things that people have died for. I keep saying I'm buying a Colin Kaepernick jersey.
- [26:04]
Ari Melber
Cause at least you can support him in that way.
- [26:06]
Ebro Darden
Cause that's the only way I can support him. Congratulations. You played this because your dumb ass Kanye and others like you have a tough time articulating your thoughts. And you need to shut up and sort to people who articulate thoughts. Well, there are people who study this, talk about this, have legislation on. I mean there's people who've spent their lifetime writing novels, books, research on this. But instead, y' all dummies jump up and use your platform to say nonsensical bs. Black women having the highest mortality rate during birth because doctors don't listen to black women. The market isn't about helping the middle class, Rosenberg. We're not going to debate people. The market. Most people are in the market aren't in the middle class. But thanks for your call, Kate.
- [26:56]
Host/Anchor
Why are we going to debate people?
- [26:57]
Ebro Darden
I don't think I've ever minced my words about my feelings about Netanyahu on this program.
- [27:01]
Ari Melber
The immigrants that come here that sacrifice so much, our parents, our friends, our loved ones, the people that serve us every day, you know, that deliver our food, that fix our cars, how much we do appreciate them.
- [27:14]
Ebro Darden
We take sexual assault here serious. And we can't, you know, get into details, change the subject, or I'm finna walk out. We don't have to talk about nothing else. We could be done right here. All right, I'm gone. Say less. I get emotional when I start thinking about what the black church means to us. The spiritual component of black people is the unbreakable point.
- [27:43]
Host/Anchor
That's just some of what made this show significant to a lot of people and having a place to do that and broadcast it. And I just showed you the politics, which the hosts say they were censored for. Ebro in the Morning was also a huge hub, known nationally for artists and culture. And tonight, as this show ends after 13 years, we pay tribute to that.
- [28:07]
Ebro Darden
Sometimes it's just words just come to me. I don't know where they're coming from. You just put all of the heat on the album.
- [28:13]
Ari Melber
It's just like the beat, like bonk, bonk, bonk.
- [28:16]
Host/Anchor
That's also.
- [28:16]
Ebro Darden
I'm willing to work with anybody, man, that has talent. You expect me as a human being to not want to defend myself because I'm rich?
- [28:24]
Ari Melber
I'm Dora the Explorer.
- [28:26]
Host/Anchor
Like Bob.
- [28:27]
Ebro Darden
Backpack, shorts, T shirt. It's more about the positivity side, man, than the upliftment of, you know, having a beautiful black family.
- [28:35]
Host/Anchor
People, they have time to heal, and they learn to live and they learn to love. We could talk slick all day as rappers. That's easy to do.
- [28:44]
Ebro Darden
That's like taking the easy way out. But what are you saying, though? People get mad when it affects them. They get involved and it affects them. There's more people hurting than eating in this world. Anything. Who has done it better than me? Nobody. I Back up any talk. I'm realizing slow jamming, slow jamming. But I'm slow jamming all day.
- [29:05]
Host/Anchor
This radio show is ending a loss for many listeners. Public reaction could still matter. We know the outcry against the attempted Kimmel cancellation was enough to ultimately reverse it. They even sparked more interest and ratings in his free speech in the days after they beat Trump. But let's face it here, and yes, I'm speaking to you through the tv, but not everyone has national TV visibility or let alone Kimmel sized fame or Kimmel's audience, which is a point he graciously made during that whole kerfuffle, advocating for others free speech and telling people to pay attention the next time they come for you. And that's why it's easier perhaps to target voices who are less famous, who have fewer powerful allies, including in business, or who, as I'm telling you tonight, come from independent and diverse media. Now, these radio hosts are going to keep working on their show in the digital space. They've launched it on YouTube. You can Google it now if you want. It's the Ebro Laura Rosenberg show. So the YouTube handle is ebro Laura Rosenberg. At a time when some podcasts and online shows do reach more people than radio and tv, maybe these incidents and the effort to censor people will lead to other open, long form digital shows and audiences connected. These hosts I'm telling you about and their radio rivals of New York, the Breakfast Club, really have helped pioneer a format that is now replicated in so many podcasts, tackling a broad set of topics from culture to politics, not just staying in one lane because of some assignment. It's a style that when it works, can be like casual with depth. And in Ebro's case, it's an approach to accountability that left him with some critics and detractors on the right and then on the left and in the mainstream and even in core hip hop. And that's okay, by the way. Being independent in politics, culture or anything often means being willing to repeatedly upset people who are sticking to certain teams or ways or partisanship. And so I'm telling you about this. If you know this show, why it matters, if you're learning about it now, it's in the wider context of those problems I mentioned, maga, big government, censorship and corporate media consolidation. We'll keep bringing you those stories here as we value our independence and you supporting independent media. Tonight, we mark the end of a show that was about all those things. Independence and truth, as they put it. Hard conversations or what is sometimes called doing it for the culture. As for what that means or requires. Well, I'll give the hosts the last word on that tonight.
- [32:00]
Ebro Darden
Originally, it was not doing it because you wanted to be famous or doing it for money, but I do this for forwarding the art of hip hop. Hip hop has always been an extension of the voice of not only the black nationalist movement, but also the community of the greater community of street culture. Right. Whether you were black or Jewish or Puerto Rican in New York City, this was youth culture creating new things out of things that already existed. Right. That sampling and records and chopping records. So you were creating something new out of something that was already there.
- [32:43]
Gretchen Carlson
Hold your name.
- [32:44]
Host/Anchor
I'm hearing in the advocacy files.
- [32:45]
Ari Melber
Ever?
- [32:46]
Host/Anchor
No, I was never, never brave. No.
- [32:48]
Ari Melber
Did she tell you what did she.
- [32:49]
Gretchen Carlson
Tell you about the word you? And specifically, did she tell you at all that your name appeared in the.
- [32:54]
Ebro Darden
No, no.
- [32:55]
Host/Anchor
She's, she's given us just a very quick briefing. Donald Trump has fielded many questions about Epstein. The administration has confirmed that he's in the files. Trump's chief of staff, Susie Wiles told Vanny Fair, we know he's in the file and he's not in the file doing anything awful. She says Trump was on Epstein's plane, he's on the manifest. They were, you know, sort of young, single, whatever. I know it's a passe word, but sort of young, single playboys together. Not exactly the current defense we've heard from the White House adding Trump and Epstein in a playboy sort of motif. But let me continue with what the Vanity Fair article says. She confirms Trump would sit for a deposition of Epstein if he had to. Administration has caught flak for breaking its vows of Epstein transparency. Then of course being forced into signing the law to force them to do that which they would not. Wiles says that Pam Bondi completely whiffed on appreciating that that was a very targeted group that cared about this, calling the Epstein documents given to conservative influencers binders full of nothingness. She's alluding to how the DOJ basically tried to trick people, adding there's no client list and it sure as hell wasn't on Bondi's desk. That is an open criticism of the sitting AG from the sitting chief of staff. The administration faces this Friday deadline now on that bill that was passed over Donald Trump's long, basically year long opposition. Democrats say they'll take them to court if they break the law. If the administration withholds some documents unlawfully, we will know if they abuse narrow exemptions to hide the truth, we will know and there will be serious legal and political consequences. As we look towards this Friday's deadline as well as the new fire on all of this. With that interview, we're joined by a veteran journalist, Gretchen Carlson, who's also a women's advocate and co founder of Lift Our Voices. Thanks for being here.
- [35:05]
Gretchen Carlson
Great to see you again.
- [35:06]
Host/Anchor
What is Susie Wiles thinking? What do you think of her?
- [35:08]
Gretchen Carlson
Epstein comments her inside voice came out right. Look, she's actually saying what I think a lot of Republicans are saying behind closed doors. Right. They don't have the spine to say what she has said. This must not be popular though in Mr. Trump's orbit today. They all came out and said of course that this is horrible media and the attack attacked all of them, sort of in course, all at the same time. But look, this is all on tape. Eleven interviews, she said all of this. And President Trump cannot be happy about this tonight at all. I think it's highly ironic, Ari, because she's supposed to be the gatekeeper. She was like the control maven and yet she's the one who is, I mean, I think honest, but in their minds probably out of control tonight.
- [35:54]
Host/Anchor
Yeah, they're gonna be upset with her. She has, as long as she has Trump standing, she can be as strong as a cabinet member. But she's clearly now cross with Bondi and trying to say, and maybe Trump likes it. Oh, it's not Trump's fault, it's not the White House's fault. This is all Bondi's fault. Then she talks about how she's aware of the nuances of the coalition. Again, Chief of staff in the new interview says people inordinately interested in Epstein are the new members of their coalition. People that I think about all the time, she says, cuz I wanna make sure they're not just Trump voters, they're Republican voters. It's the Joe Rogan listeners. It's the people that are sort of new to our world. It's not the MAGA base, you know, to read between the lines here on an intramural MAGA fight. And I've interviewed a lot of these people and you've been around them. It would seem that she wiles is positioning herself as the true knowledgeable sort of patron of all of this and that Bondi misfired. Bondi doesn't get it and some of the other people didn't get it. But what does that help her really if at the end of the day it still hurts Trump to be in the files.
- [36:55]
Gretchen Carlson
Yeah, it doesn't help. I'd like to just focus in on what she said though about those voters because I'm not so sure it's just the Joe Rogan new Trump voters that are affected by this. Remember, it was the MAGA base that demanded that the Epstein files be released. Now, do I think that they cared about the women necessarily, the survivors in this? No. I think that they thought there were going to be a lot of top level Democrats that they were going to. By the way, she also says in this interview that Bill Clinton was never on the island. I mean just to put that in perspective because that was 100% against what Trump says. But back to these voters. I think it's been problematic for Trump in this term that he cannot control podcasters, he cannot control influencers. That is the and now ever growing. He can't control members of Congress on the Republican side. But I think this is a much bigger percentage of voters than she said. She said this is 5% of the voters. I think it is much bigger. And I think the MAGA base, I think she's wrong. The MAGA base will be incredibly upset if these files are not released on Friday.
- [37:58]
Host/Anchor
Yeah. And that goes to the deadline that they're barreling towards. As for Clinton, you mentioned, I mean she doesn't have to actively disagree with her boss. There many ways to answer questions. We all know that. As you point out, she says on the Clinton front, quote, President Trump was, quote, wrong about that. He was wrong about the Clinton angle. As for Maxwell, which is leniency afforded to her. Look, in journalism we always try to track this down. We don't have all the details on what led to that unusual transfer. Wiles, interestingly, while being pretty critical of Trump on other things, says she and Trump, we'll put this back up. Weren't consulted about that controversial trafficker transfer. The President was ticked, she claims, which also makes him look a little out of control of that the President was mighty unhappy. I don't know why they moved her. Neither does the President. So I'll give you two points to respond to. One, the same thing of throwing Pam Bondi under the bus. Oh, look what they're doing over there. And that's kind of Washington stuff. But it could matter if it hurts Bondi. And then two, if they think it's such a bad idea to give lenience to this sex trafficker, why don't they move her back?
- [39:06]
Gretchen Carlson
And why does he keep saying he doesn't know whether or not he would pardon her. I don't believe that for a minute.
- [39:11]
Host/Anchor
By the way. You think she's lying?
- [39:12]
Gretchen Carlson
I don't believe that for a minute. She said in that interview that Todd Blanch, deputy to Pam Bondi, was the one former personal lawyer to Donald Trump, was the one who went down there on his own. It was his idea. I don't believe that for a minute. I think that this was orchestrated because it was just yet another tactic of delay and it was trying to get the MAGA base off their backs by a performative interview with Ghislaine Maxwell where she says that Trump had did nothing wrong. Maybe that's true, but I think it was an effort to try and get Congress off their backs, the committees off their backs, MAGA off their backs. And. But I don't believe for a second that there wasn't a reward there by transferring her to that lower prison.
- [39:56]
Host/Anchor
And that plot, as you as, as you describe, is stupid because getting her to say in public, Trump did nothing wrong adds to the right wing clamor for the docs. Oh, he did nothing wrong. Then the docs won't affect their side. Let's see. The docs.
- [40:11]
Gretchen Carlson
Exactly.
- [40:11]
Host/Anchor
So it really kind of didn't make sense.
- [40:14]
Gretchen Carlson
It didn't make sense, although I think that that was part of the deal. Supposedly, you know, say that Trump didn't do anything wrong because then maybe it will all go away. I think if, if I was thinking about how they were trying to orchestrate it, that's what I was thinking at that particular time. The problem is that, that President Trump has kept this story alive for almost a year now because he's the one that keeps bringing it up and tries to get rid of it with all these tactics, but it just evokes more news stories. And the more that he says that it's a hoax, that just irritates his base even more. And I think the biggest thing that changed this entire story was it moved out of MAGA wanting to know about this into the general population. It became part of popular culture where if you went on the streets right now, I bet more people could tell you about Epstein than they could who the Vice President of the United States is. I think that this has really gone into 80 to 90% of the general public having heard about the Epstein files.
- [41:14]
Host/Anchor
With 30 seconds to go, your preview for Friday. Will we see files by midnight?
- [41:19]
Gretchen Carlson
I think if we do, they're going to be heavily redacted. But I think that there will be some sort of an insurrection, if not enough information is released about this, I really do. And as you heard from the Democrats, there'll be lawsuits and we'll have to see how this plays out in the courts if they don't release it.
- [41:37]
Host/Anchor
Right. And the lawsuits are sort of make my day because the Democrats have been dropping certainly chunks just to get this back in front of everyone. If the DOJ hides and fights, then you have months of lawsuits. And who wouldn't cover that? I mean, now that we know how media works, of course you're gonna cover that. The president signed this thing and now he's fighting his own law, you know, that kind of thing. So, Gretchen, always great to get your perspective.
- [41:59]
Gretchen Carlson
Thank you.
- [41:59]
Host/Anchor
Appreciate you coming on the beat. When we come back, we'll hear more of the tributes, including Michelle Obama on Rob and Michelle Reiner. Tributes pouring in for Rob Reiner, who was found dead along with his wife Michelle on Sunday. Prosecutors now say the son of the Reiners will be charged with their murder. Michelle Obama praised Rob and Michelle in this new interview from last night. What they have always been are passionate people in a time when there's not a lot of courage going on. They were the kind of people who were ready to put their actions behind.
- [42:41]
Ari Melber
What they cared about.
- [42:43]
Host/Anchor
And they cared about their family and they cared about this country and they cared about fairness and equity. And that is the truth. I do know them. Late night hosts also discussing Reiner's work, his legacy, his career and impact.
- [43:02]
Ebro Darden
He's one of the smartest and funniest.
- [43:04]
Host/Anchor
People I've ever met.
- [43:05]
Ebro Darden
What a tremendous loss.
- [43:06]
Host/Anchor
And he leaves behind such a legacy. Man who set an example and there's such a value in that. And we have to do everything we can to not make setting an example a lost art. It's the interview that rocked a White House that is used to some level of drama and chaos. Vanity Fair is really blockbuster interview with current White House chief of staff Susie Wiles who says Trump has an alcoholic personality. J.D. vance is a conspiracy theorist, musk an odd duck among other charges about him. Now insiders discuss how she is Trump's enabler. She in the interview defends the idea that a contrast to the first term is she's there to let him do anything. As if there are no moral or legal boundaries on our constitutional republic. It is a contrast to how one of her key predecess viewed the job. Take a look. When I was in the White House.
- [44:12]
Ari Melber
Dhs, I was, you know, recently conversation.
- [44:18]
Host/Anchor
Would be, you know, Mr. President, that's.
- [44:21]
Ari Melber
Outside your authority or, you know, that's, you know, that's a routine use.
- [44:28]
Host/Anchor
You really don't want to do that inside the United States. When he would tell me that he wanted to do something, 100 of the time, I check with the, with the White House counsel because oftentimes he wouldn't have the authority to do what he wanted to do. Following your legal authority. What a concept. That's our show.
- [44:52]
Ebro Darden
This message is brought to you by Apple Card.
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Host/Anchor
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Ebro Darden
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Host/Anchor
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Ebro Darden
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Host/Anchor
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